Boards›Concepts & Creations

Let's talk about the (M)CCC

Sir ArmaMalum·10/30/2014, 3:21:49 PM·8 votes·3,066 views

Hey guys, for anyone who hasn't been keeping track, the CCC (The Board's Champion Concept Contest) and the MCCC (The vBulletin's Champion Concept Contest) will be merging this next month. How this will work is actually quite simple: I'll be co-hosting with MobyTheWhite for the November MCCC.

Now this isn't to say that I'm just tossing the MCCC hosts the reigns and walking away after the November contest, in fact I'm using this opportunity to see how the MCCC hosts do things and what I can take away from it. The MCCC has been running for a few years, whereas the CCC (the one I hosted) was/is at this point a few months old, so I imagine I will be.

To start (I'm planning on revisiting this topic a fe times this month), I wanted to talk about two things:

1) The Board's limitations on the old MCCC format

(What I mean by this are things like the reduced character limit/discussion view preventing in-thread concept entry. As well as the limited formatting capability available right now. For better or worse, things will need to change to fit the new surroundings.)

and

2) What people want out of a champion concept contest

To expand on 2) I've already had scattered but good conversations about what hosts want out of a concept contest. As an example, I'm personally more for a low barrier of entry mosh-pit to better encourage newcomers while still highlighting the greats. Whereas another viewpoint (also completely valid) is to have challenges and a general high barrier of entry so we can see a downright amazing titan of a concept at the end.

There are other views of course but I want to pick everyone's brains as far as what's wanted out of a Champion Concept Contest and how we can make it better!

P.S. Anyone who prefers to use discussion (nested) view, please be courteous to those who prefer chronological and quote the comment you are replying to.

40 Comments

Flintfall10/30/2014, 7:05:15 PM6 votes

I think Othello explained a lot of my thoughts perfectly, but I have a few more things to add regarding the CCC:

I like how with the CCC I can submit my concept as it is, I don't have to change my vision of it to match requirements.
I agree that the CCC feels fairly distant in that it isn't engaging, DMC did a post for predictions and whatnot which to me breathed a bit more life. Small things like progress reports, little side contest things (no judging, just a creative process like make a kit for this archetype), and just general discussion threads about each other's concepts could go a really long way.
Don't make it hard for people to join, that's always been the biggest thing for me. The CCC imo isn't too biased to veterans, I could be wrong, but the first winner wasn't too experienced in the concepting field and simply had a great idea. At any rate, veterans will almost always have better constructed concepts regardless if structure is given to them or not.
More requirements don't necessarily add up to a titan concept in the end, it could simply end up showing the concept that best fits the theme of the contest (in some instances).

Either way, I love what each contest is doing!

Still Eternity10/31/2014, 2:17:25 AM4 votes

I've always felt the true point of the MCCC wasn't really to find the very best concept that ever was; No, it was rather a sort of educational program designed to test those who truly wished to create concepts have a workspace where they could be challenged by restrictions and requirements to test their mettle as designers. I've always hoped that the MCCC could be a social contest where everyone comes to learn everyone and a whole community is born of it.

I would prefer the element of challenge persist if we are to merge our two concepts together. This has always been my personal vision for the MCCC, and I'd hate to see it completely eliminated.

If you have any questions, concerns, or further opinions you'd like to ask me, feel free to do so.

And yes Elp, Chronological is the only way to actually have a conversation.

Othello the Cat10/30/2014, 5:38:56 PM4 votes

Well, after entering and participating in both contests, here's what I like and dislike about each:

MCCC: Pros:

Challenges make it so the concept fits a theme and is 100% original. More of a challenge and more stimulating creativity-wise.
Due to the greater sense of community and willingness to critique and judge between contestants, a concept can be refined so it can be the best it can be.
A schedule makes the creation less stressful, as you don't need to get every bit of the champion done right away. You can get the concept done when you feel like it.
Anyone can host the MCCC. If you feel creative enough to make a theme but don't feel like making a champion, you are allowed to host.

Cons:

Lack or reliability with scores and judgements make it hard for large groups.
Relatively tough for new concept creators, and the challenges can restrict people in some ways.
Certain members are typically hostile to the host if they feel like they deserve a better score.

CCC Pros:

Very friendly to newcomers, as you can submit a champion you've had stirring in your head for a while.
Judges are anonymous so you don't know who gave you a good score or a bad score. Also, there's no way to pander to judges.
Formatting of the results is very clean and readable.

Cons:

Lack of a community aside from a congratulations at the end.
A short window of time to make an entire champion can be stressful for some.
Newcomers can get overshadowed easily as veterans can blow them out of the water with unique mechanics and interactions a new designer wouldn't think of yet.
Little to no challenges to make this any bit difficult aside from a bonus short story.

Anyway, that's just what I've found. If there's a way we can get all the good qualities in, I'd be happy. But, I'm just one opinion.

The Core Augur11/1/2014, 6:21:41 AM3 votes

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HashtagWhatAreYouDoingCoreStahp

Nagirte11/3/2014, 6:09:23 AM2 votes

I would honestly like an option in the mccc for concepts to have a full lore and basic kit OR a full, eligible kit and a basic/partial lore for at least the first week. I tend to think about an interesting archetype and kit and develop the actual character and lore afterward. Honestly that's a big reason I'm late/not submitting for mccc a because I don't have the lore done to my liking yet.

But back on topic, I did kind of feel like there wasn't any reason to really check back on the ccc thread after I submitted my entry. It felt like we were just kind of waiting around for the judgements.

Elphrihaim10/31/2014, 4:38:39 AM1 votes

To each their own, no problem. Hopefully me quoting you is working out all right?

But of course. Reddit-style is counterintuitive to me is all I meant.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything. Simply that a conceptor hailing from the MCCC, from my observations, is on average much longer than someone who was 'brought up' on the CCC. That's awesome don't get me wrong, but as I beleive we both agree the Boards do not provide a good medium for posts of that length.

THAT'S true. I just didn't understand what you meant by "into several pages". x_x

Judging

Hmm. So you plan around judges not being able to fulfill the obligations they signed up for...That speaks good intelligence on your part and ill on the community's willingness to stay.

[Sorry. My brain gave out when I was trying to think over everything else...]

Stephenizgod10/31/2014, 6:44:58 PM1 votes

What i love about the CCC is how simple it is (idk if thats a good thing?) Its simple, just post a champion like normal and then put a comment with a link and boom your in (as long as you meet the requirements). As a judge in the last contest i noticed a whole lot of newcomers with great concepts, scoring along side the veterans.

If i had to state a problem with the CCC it would be lack of information? idk how to put it i guess, but basically I submit my champ then wait X amount of time until results. Of course i try to read other concepts and give feedback, but not everyone will so there is a huge amount of time where everyone is just waiting for the promised day. Maybe if there was a reason to keep contestants more active in the contest throughout the entire period?

Like every couple days post several of the concepts and ask for the community to give feedback then post another few concepts. I think something like that will not only create more feedback for the concepts but also get more attention towards the CCC. Not a perfect idea of course but something along those lines might help?

Elphrihaim11/1/2014, 12:38:44 AM1 votes

I saw some argued that the MCCC requires more time because of tiered requirements, but to be honest, I ignored these mostly when I participated and finished everything in one go. And I assume I'm not alone on that.

I think you may have thought what I said was this? I meant that because the MCCC has _more_ requirements it takes longer.

This is a general "problem" for every contest that requires time for judging. But I don't see any problem at all. In fact I wished that there would be MCCC and CCC in different parts of the month so everybody can submit 2 champions for different contest. The only thing we need to adjust is to syntonize the starting times. Let's say MCCC starts every 1st of the month and CCC on every 15th. Each contest lasts 1 month and so on. This way we can have 2 weeks for the MCCC champions and when they're finished we could start with the CCC champions.

The line quoted by Zanryuu: This is why some of the MCCC hosts had extra bonus challenges that would be pushed out partway through the month.

MCCC gives more time for it's challenges because there are more requirements. The CCC has a low barrier to entry, which means that any idea you thought up in the past can be adjusted to become an entry. MCCC submissions get crafted specifically for that contest.

[For the record: synchronize.]

As mentioned before the spirit of competetition restricts many contestants to write any usefull information for other contestants.

This, this, so much of this.

I frequently try my damnedest to avoid reading anybody's submission until I'm mostly done with mine. I take my time making my submissions, though, so by the time I get around to reading the submissions, there's not really much of a point in commenting on them... because I'm afraid of the judges making the exact same notes, and nothing is more stupidly aggravating than being told off twice for the same reason.

Sometimes they are proud of one concept and refuse to change it, i get like that. On the flip side they have the general idea but need help refining it and ask alot from the community, i do that too. There are those that refuse to change their own concept but still give great feedback and vice versa. Depends on the concept and the mood.

Well... sometimes, people don't know the background behind something. Somebody sets out to make a concept that has a specific set of goals in mind. Like, for example, "An active transformation that isn't your ultimate". But they don't say that anywhere. So naturally, somebody comes in, and points out imbalances that may be-- and suggests moving the transformation to the ultimate of the concept. The owner would never do that and has a very good reason why: Changing it to be such would destroy one of the goals of making it in the first place.

At least, with how I work, I'm never without a specific goal in mind when writing up a kit. I'm just bad at making it obvious that that was a point, a central feature.

All im saying is if the CCC wants to get more attention then having huge periods of nothing happening is not going to do it.

All contests work this way. There has to be some time during which no change can happen for the judges to fairly go over each champion.

There needs to be more incentive for contestants to give feedback or something to do to pass the time and be constructive, specially during judging period.

Attempted with the MACFA. You may notice it's not around on the Boards...

Not because it had that, but because the Boards are anathema to the way their system had been designed. But this system, I believe, did not actually assist it in living. Though I did not follow it particularly closely.

Moby the White11/1/2014, 3:01:42 AM1 votes

I think one thing I've tried to do in the past was at least standardize a rubric. But different people have a different view of what is important. Some of the things being discussed now are great changes. What we need to make sure is that we are accepting to change. Judging needs a major overhaul, and I think with this we can improve it through this. I don't really like posting whether there is an award. That makes for a precedent that I never wanted. I started it I know...but it makes the competition fierce, and people seem to care ten times more when money is involved. If there is an award I won't announce it, because I can't guarantee that paying the winner will happen if it comes down to that or paying the bills.

Sir ArmaMalum11/1/2014, 3:12:53 AM1 votes

Okay so brief update on things, mostly Boards related changes people for MCCC veterans:

November contest announcement will not be tonight under my advisement. Time of day plays a critical role in overall visibility, as bumping quickly loses weight in the Hot sorting. So for maximum exposure It's going to to be midday tommorrow.
This is probably well known by now, but entries will need to be a link to a post instead of a full submission within a comment. Due to character limits. Also, I have yet to try recently, but if you're running into a problem with the character limit in a post you can add more with a subsequent edit after posting. This worked a while back, but like I said I haven't tried recently so not 100% sure this is still available.
If anyone needs help on the Boards formatting (such as what you can and cannot do) I'll be happy to help you out.
This may just be me being an engineering student, but I've noticed some dissonance in the core 'goal' of the MCCC and CCC. In other words, I want to break both down even further.

The CCC, in my eyes, was more of a 'showcase'. A way for concepts to be grouped and shared within the concepting community. To bring like-minded people together through their interests, fleeting or no. (I mentioned earlier it as akin to a mosh-pit of ideas)

The MCCC (again, my personal interpretation) looks to be more challenge based. A test, if you will, to have designers tackle a given set of hurdles in creative ways to show off ingenuity and flexibility. This highlights more of a competition or contest than the CCC imho.

Both are great things, but I'm curious as to whether my interpretation of the two sits well with everyone. The best I can do is 'skim' the archives for past MCCC's, I was never there in the moment, so obviously my viewpoint of the MCCC is blurred at best. What do you all think?

Elphrihaim11/1/2014, 3:27:18 AM1 votes

Time of Day

Well, to be honest, most of the people that care enough about a contest like this to participate in it fully... actually would look for it. So I don't think that matters.

Entry posts

excuse me while I make an off-site method to format my concepts because I bloody hate Boards. Not that I'm bad with formatting at all (I'd like to think I'm good with it), I just... refuse to use it when I can.

Difference between MCCC and CCC

I agree with your interpretation of the MCCC. But I was never here for the CCC, so I've got quite the foggy set of lenses ;)

The MCCC to me always felt like a way to restrict us, and then force us to add dimension to our character to make them very unique.

######That said, I have like fifty concepts that I should get around to posting, since the character limit will prevent me from actually posting everything I want to about them anyway... Like Elphrihaim, Elikia, Tayhine, Zelos, Kaikori, Enaeva, Enior, Zaichenrel, Nahel... I should probably do a few touchups on Nalwei so I can repost him here to the Boards, write up some lore for Kyogia, Lucia Reis, Alenda, Iava, and Marcul... I should probably also reformat Eliwan for the Boards, redo Cona with lore, Falchae, Celira, Phenix, Kaloth, do a Neku Sakuraba expy, make Urbiel's entropy mastery make sense, Isium Talinard, Kauto, Rimzel, Mellris, Eilia, the Skayle, do a Face-Rolling-All-Passives character for League, Zakul, Lukaz, a Cereberus... Okay, so it's not 50 that I actually want to redo, just 33.

Elphrihaim11/1/2014, 7:25:39 AM1 votes

The above post, in chronological view is one of my favorites. There can be no substitute for the sheer awesome it has.

dialMARK4acti0n11/1/2014, 8:09:34 PM1 votes

I think it's really cool that you two will be merging! And I'm also really proud for you Sir Arma ^^ What you do for the community is awesome, and to be humble enough to try and improve the CCC experience is really something to behold :D

What I want out of a CCC, honestly, is to showcase the talent of the community. Honestly, I think getting more attention all around would be great, because you'd be giving the community more exposure. I think that's what makes the CCC core to me. It's the fact that it's community-made and it shows what the community is capable of, when it comes to creativity.

Also, it's really cool to just chill out and do a concept that get feedback from other concepteers and than have your work and effort be recognized by others. I don't want any prizes or anything in a CCC (although I wouldn't complain if I ever got one xP), I just want to share things with the rest of the community and have things be shared to me BY the community

LilStacey8712/8/2014, 3:33:41 AM1 votes

When is the December CCC?

Zanryu10/30/2014, 5:59:42 PM1 votes

A huge problem of the MCCC was always the clarity. The main post was mostly a huge wall of text and if you wanted to search for specific entry, you had to reroll all posts until you found it. This is something I saw in the October edition as well as some people tryed to compress their champion into a reply. I guess I don't need to mention that this sucks up a lot of space within the post itself and restricts the entrant itself due to the character limits. This is why I always prefer a list of all entrants within the main post.

Something I also saw in the October Edition where no-go mechanics as requirements. Generally I have nothing against requirements and restrictions because they add a bit of guideline towards the champions. However if they're chosen blindly, like in this case, they can destroy the whole contest for some people. Not to mention that certain requirements can also frighten other people who thought about entering.

In general the host has to find the mediocrity between guideline and restriction to create a contest everybody can enjoy.

Raptamei10/30/2014, 6:03:09 PM1 votes

Bump for hot thread sort.

Elphrihaim10/30/2014, 6:28:17 PM1 votes

To add on to what Othello said,

MCCC Pros:

Contestant numbers become limited because the concept has to be almost entirely original to the competition. This makes...

Judges give more deep feedback on each concept.

Cons:

The lower number of judges (usually) creates a bias for certain styles, depending on who is the host.

The contest can feel exclusive because of how challenging it is, with a higher barrier to entry.

Hmm. I guess... I think what should be is a middle ground contest. Something that inherits both the accessibility of the CCC with the setup of the MCCC (schedules, doing champions by part) would be ideal in my mind, but the Boards are anathema to being able to do that. Raptamei and I attempted such a thing, and ended up needing many posts for each part of our character. (I believe I totaled 5 and Raptamei 6, but I am not certain)

Elphrihaim10/30/2014, 10:22:39 PM1 votes

I do need to catch up on the history of the MCCC, as well. Has there ever been a time where a month of the MCCC flopped due to a host's actions? If so, what was the action taken if any?

A few times, though rarely due to the host's own actions, more that the challenges given weren't lending themselves to new creations. I know that the 2014 August Rework Lab (MiaoLong) was changed out for another Martial Arts Madness because not a lot of people wanted to do it, and because the previous contest was somewhat damaged (Though I can't remember WHY it was).

In a perfect world, eh? I hear you.

You actually bring up another topic that I want to talk about, primarily to conceptors who love putting their concepts into several pages. (i.e. you, Raptemei)

Huh? I don't like putting my "concepts into several pages", I like giving all the details on a character.

Concept length is definitely an issue, both for the Board's limitations as well as judging time. If we want to have a central contest we have to be ready to handle a large number of entrants as I'm sure you're aware. However the Boards have a major difference from vBulletin. they're International. (Also holds an issue for RP prizes that I ran into as well)

Yeah, this is also difficult. I think that the judgment time of the MCCC works fine, myself, but I guess that that is at least in part due to the fact that the number of concepts that get through the entire MCCC is smaller... since the requirements are more strict.

Needless to say, if everything goes well the number of entrants will continue to rise, which in turn makes it much more difficult to give long concepts the same chance as shorter ones within the short span of 2-3 weeks. I can tell you that 42 entries of comparatively short concepts was starting to push it for 3 people (granted it was also the CCC's first month).

Hmm. I'm... unsure. I, personally, only had a small difficulty when I judged the April? MCCC, because I underestimated how difficult my school projects would actually be, but I believe I finished them all in time (with nowhere near the depth I would have liked to use for the last few, which led to me revising my scores once it was pointed out to me)...

In the MCCC, the judges usually score by themselves and then add the scores to get a total, is that how it is done for the CCC? I would have to know more about your process of choice to really be evaluating it.

[Chronological view is still the only real way to have a discussion, in my head...]