Wukong Rework [Quick Draft for Critique]

ModThe Djinn··27 votes·2,031 views

Edit: To the people behind the downvotes: by all means downvote it if you don't like it, but it's very helpful to me if you can let me know WHY you don't like it. Would be greatly appreciated. :)

Edit 2: Added in some decoy play on the W, with an early detonate to let it be a more reliable in-combat tool or a longer duration if you want to use it for trickery. Most of the kit's complexity is now in this ability, which is likely fine for a character like Wukong.

#WUKONG

Since I've seen a lot of Wukong comments recently, I decided to take a quick pass at a Wukong rework, with the intended purpose of keeping changes as small scope as possible. The goal was to see if I could take his current theme of mobile skirmishing bruiser and drag him a little more into a sustained combat pattern and less into an assassin pattern, which also hitting his theme of skilled combatant a bit more by making his spells a little more interactive. The goal is a tricky, sustained-DPS mobile monkey who dances around the battlefield.

This is a quick, 15-minute draft, so expect flaws, and definitely hit me up with comments/critique.


NIMBUS DANCE Wukong revels in combat. Whenever he deals physical damage to an enemy champion or large monster he gains 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 armor and magic resistance (at levels 1/3/5/9/12/15/18) for 4 seconds, stacking up to 10 times. Abilities that hit multiple champions grant multiple stacks.

CRUSHING BLOW Wukong spins around, gaining movement speed and dealing physical damage to nearby enemies before elongating his staff and slamming it in the target direction, dealing additional physical damage, applying on-hit effects, and greatly slowing targets struck, decaying quickly over 1 second. He may move while casting this ability, and the final slam is targeted along the vector of the initial cast (like Taric's stun or Lucian's ultimate). Scales on total AD and bonus health. Cooldown: 9/8/7/6/5.

Designer Notes: I feel this is a much more interactive ability that lets us bake some more interesting skill tests into Wukong's kit. It also helps his jungling and gives more counterplay to his damage, letting us give him a bit more of an interesting pattern other than E+QQQQQ. A cool side-effect is the potential for multi-target Trinity Force procs if you get the line up properly, and the slow gives you a bit more stickiness and lets you play positioning games, which Wukong loves.

SMOKEPOPPY Wukong leaves a decoy behind him for 1.5 seconds, blinks to target location within 250 range and becomes invisible for 1.5 seconds. After 0.5 seconds the ability can be reactivated to detonate the decoy in a cloud of smoke, dealing DoT magic damage and marking all nearby enemy champions. If Wukong remains invisible for the full duration, his next attack against a marked enemy deals significant bonus physical damage and reduces their armor for 4 seconds. First portion scales on AP, second portion on total AD.

Auto-attacks against enemy champions and large/epic monsters reduce the cooldown of Smokepoppy by 1 second. Cooldown: 18/17/16/15/14 seconds.

EDIT: Added back in some decoy play, since it was deeply missed. Added the ability to detonate it early to retain its combat functionality in situations where trickery isn't needed. Additionally, the old "pretend to decoy and stand still" trick may be empowered now, due to the threat of the damage spike by the second half of the ability encouraging people to play cautiously when approaching a decoy.

Designer Notes: This design gives Wukong some interesting choices to make, as Smokepoppy becomes a potentially useful engagement tool at the expense of damage, or a potentially useful burst DPS tool with the counterplay of having to stick to your target (ala Fizz W). It discourages simply spamming it and attacking anyway, which is the current interaction in-combat, and the DoT ensures that he won't have jungle monsters reset on him. It allows him to gank safer targets at the expense of damage, and rewards him for managing to stay in a fight and building durability by giving him tricky options in the later game the longer he's alive.

Another cool side effect is that it removes the frustrating E+Q+W burst+escape combo that current Wukong has in lane, as if you use the W to escape you lose out on a large part of your burst damage.

NIMBUS STRIKE Wukong dashes towards target enemy, dealing moderate physical damage to the primary target, light physical damage to nearby targets, and granting Wukong increased attack speed for 4 seconds. The duration of the attack speed buff is paused while Wukong is invisible. Scales on total AD. Cooldown: 8 seconds.

Designers Notes: Very minor changes here -- the ability was changed to a pure AoE (because the existing model was hard to recognize), with secondary damage decreased to avoid too much wave clear. The attack speed duration is also paused while Wukong is invisible to increase your options to play around with the kit. E into Q into W (sticking to the slowed target) into almost fully attack speed uptime with the pre-charged E and the upcoming E gives a pretty great opening if you can afford to give your target the 1.5 seconds of time to react.

CYCLONE Wukong lashes out in a circle with a radius of 200, dealing physical damage, knocking up targets struck, and marking them with Dizzy for 6 seconds. For the next 6 seconds he can cast this ability up to two additional times after a 1 second cooldown. Targets with Dizzy are immune to knock-ups from Cyclone, but take 50% increased physical damage. Scales on total AD. Cooldown: 120/105/90 seconds

Designer's Notes: A common complaint is that Wukong's ultimate locks him out from other abilities, so I've build this one to engage in the more spell-based gameplay this version has. You can't repeatedly knock up one target, but you CAN now do some trickier plays like W'ing into the front line, knocking them up, E-ing to the back line, knocking THEM up, and hitting them a second time for increased damage.


#Core Build Black Cleaver and Trinity Force make up this Wukong's core build, as he benefits greatly from CDR, deals physical damage quickly, and casts spells frequently. Deadman's Plate helps him ensure his Q lands and keeps targets around for his W's cook time, and Titanic Hydra or Ravenous Hydra increase his DPS and grant him a little more burst.

From there he can build AD or Tank as he needs for the situation.

In the jungle he can rely on Warrior for increased offensive capabilities, or rely on his strong stickiness to have high uptime on Cinderhulk.

40 Comments

FB Ospraey3 votes

i really like this, pretty fond of the wukong gaining more resistance the longer he is in combat. although i don't think his w would need a big change. maybe something like it can give an auto for his clone for that extra burst or split push power. maybe q with wukong.

personally id like to see wukong have more abilities that tie in with his shadow clone jutsu

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted} although i don't think his w would need a big change. maybe something like it can give an auto for his clone for that extra burst or split push power. maybe q with wukong.

The reason I opted for this is that currently his clone play is actually pretty limited, and a model that gives it extra burst power actually encourages his current E+Q+W to escape combo, which leads to assassin-style play. The model here sort of cuts down on that by back-loading the W damage and requiring him to stay in combat to gain it, which means he doesn't have the E+Q+W+escape combo that's so infuriating in lane.

personally id like to see wukong have more abilities that tie in with his shadow clone jutsu

I think that would be a really cool direction for him, definitely, but it was also out of scope for the sort of exercise I was trying to go for here, which was specifically to test small-scope changes.

Rester1 votes

Admittedly I am a bit concerned for his passive. It's a good idea but the "Nimble" part just kinda screams movement/attack speed for me instead of resistances.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Admittedly I am a bit concerned for his passive. It's a good idea but the "Nimble" part just kinda screams movement/attack speed for me instead of resistances.

I had envisioned it as sort of the martial-arts style teachings of moving with the direction of blows to soften their impact, but, admittedly, the name isn't perfect. That's 15-minute design for you. If the big concern is that the name is off, I'll take it, 'cause that's a super easy adjustment.

Terakali1 votes

Honestly, I'd just keep the original name Stone Skin. There's nothing wrong with the lore behind it, and Sun Wukong was a kickass stone-monkey god, demon, thing.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

It looks nice but I think I can speak for a lot of mains that we do NOT want his decoy to be removed in favor of a pure stealth mechanic. It is the one thing I dread when Riot goes to update him. To me I'd rather have the decoy then the stealth mechanic as we have plenty of stealth mechanics in the game, but only 3 champs with decoys including Wukong. The decoy is pretty unique and with a bit of tweaking Riot could make it really stand out between the ones that are currently in the game.

I like that you stuck to the lore with the concept (I did something similar with mine, but took it in a direction that gave him multiple clones with less reliable stealth), but I honestly hope that the lore is just very early on and we will be seeing Wukong eventually gain the ability to make clones, not just have that concept scrapped for good. Decoys are part of what makes Wukong Wukong to me and that being removed would be like removing Garen's Spin or Shen's taunt.

As for the rest of the abilities, I like the passive. I had a very similar idea, but honestly I think "AA's into bonus armor and MR" will be the most likely thing for Riot to do with Wukong's passive when they go to update him as it's perfect for a Diver's kit and also good to see it work on large monsters, giving a bit more breathing room for those who like to play him in the jungle.

The Q was a bit hard for me to wrap my head around at first, as it sort of sounded like a weaker version of his ult to start with, but over all I think I like the ability. Its better then a basic empowered auto attack and seems to give Wukong some amount of poke to work with, which is something he's currently lacking.

The E makes sense. his Current E is pretty much like Mordes old Q in the sense that it targets nearly enemies at random (not a fan of abilities like that to be honest, they don't feel very intuitive) and with how it works currently, it may as well just do AOE damage. I will say it does make it very much like XinZhao's E, minus the slow, but its not like champs can't have similar abilities, especially when they are in the same class.

Ult is pretty much the same with added mechanics that would be refreshing to have. I would personally like to see less power in Wukong's Ult and see it spread to the rest of his kit and it looks like you did do that with the reduced range on his Ult. I felt like reduced range would be a good starting point when taking power out of his ult as it would make him more single target focused when ulting and able to use the knock up against remaining enemies as a defensive tool instead of flat CC.

Overall some really good ideas here, just keep in mind that the decoys are one of his defining features and it would really depressing to see that removed for a pure stealth mechanic.

Lios Ashenblade2 votes

Yeah his decoy is kind of iconic, and you an spoof it by hitting h i think, or was it s

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lios Ashenblade,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-02-04T15:17:16.139+0000)

Yeah his decoy is kind of iconic, and you an spoof it by hitting h i think, or was it s

Did an edit aimed at keeping this fantasy a bit more while still increasing the in-combat reliability. Would appreciate your thoughts.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Yea, it was S, which is neat cause the Stop button is something everyone can use, but only he can make a real use of it (outside of maybe a support who can maybe use it to keep them from aa'ing minions, but that's about it).

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

I've seen some top notch jukes using it too lol

ModThe Djinn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-04T08:51:51.740+0000)It looks nice but I think I can speak for a lot of mains that we do NOT want his decoy to be removed in favor of a pure stealth mechanic. It is the one thing I dread when Riot goes to update him. To me I'd rather have the decoy then the stealth mechanic as we have plenty of stealth mechanics in the game, but only 3 champs with decoys including Wukong. The decoy is pretty unique and with a bit of tweaking Riot could make it really stand out between the ones that are currently in the game.

Agreed. As I said at the start, this was an intentional low-scope change though, and I think properly supporting the decoy would require more effort. This was more of an experiment in the minor update category of changes Riot does occasionally than in an outright redesign, and hence I didn't delve as deeply into redesigning the decoy mechanic as I could have.

A quick fix here is to give a 0.5 second delay on the smoke cloud, and leave a decoy there. It still lets you do some of the tricks and keeps some of the decoy flavor, but increases the reliability of the damage by retaining some of the functionality in this design. It's far from perfect for a decoy-based Wukong, but it seems like it might help him feel like Wukong.

Overall some really good ideas here, just keep in mind that the decoys are one of his defining features and it would really depressing to see that removed for a pure stealth mechanic.

Of course. Edited it to add in some decoy play. Tell me what you think!

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Much better I think. Like you said its far from perfect for a decoy-based Wukong but I think it nails what you were looking to do with these. One of the things that bothered me about Wukong's current Decoy was the AP scaling that has no purpose as any hybrid item Wukong would build that gave AP has been changed (item 3078 ), So adding that AD scaling to it is very nice to see.

While it does take a bit away from the decoy being used as an escape tool, it does make sense as Divers don't have good escape tools to begin with and it allows it to be used more for its intended purpose, which is to reposition in a fight/letting him get the jump on an enemy.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-02-04T19:50:27.820+0000)While it does take a bit away from the decoy being used as an escape tool, it does make sense as Divers don't have good escape tools to begin with and it allows it to be used more for its intended purpose, which is to reposition in a fight/letting him get the jump on an enemy.

It actually still retains the full escape functionality -- you just don't get all your damage if you do that. I feel that's a fair trade off.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

fair enough. I guess what I mean to say is it rewards proper use of the decoy rather then using it as an escape tool. Either way, looks much better.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-04T21:13:10.896+0000)

fair enough. I guess what I mean to say is it rewards proper use of the decoy rather then using it as an escape tool.

I'm glad, because that was the goal! I had wanted to work that in as a more important part of his in-fight toolkit.

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

Im not a fan of the the smokepoppy thing, it basically gives him an extra duskblade, maybe instead make it heal him for a scaling health %, so he drops the dot cloud, and moves to escape, or reinitiate, but comes back with that fat 15% heal, which would prompt people to build item 3065 potentially

And lets move the knock up to the q, thematically it makes more sense, since it slams the staff down on the vector, impact pops them up.

Im not sure what I would change the ult to, but that has a lot of potential, I think we should lean on his whimsical nature however, be kind of funny, to see him lob his staff like a ziggs ult, and have it do an aoe because its huge as fuck now, with a cc

ModThe Djinn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lios Ashenblade,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-04T15:14:40.679+0000)Im not a fan of the the smokepoppy thing, it basically gives him an extra duskblade, maybe instead make it heal him for a scaling health %, so he drops the dot cloud, and moves to escape, or reinitiate, but comes back with that fat 15% heal, which would prompt people to build item 3065 potentially

It does give him another Duskblade-style effect, but remember that I didn't list numbers for damage -- he'd take a hit to raw damage in favor of the slightly improve AoE and stickiness this version gives, with some of that damage back-loaded into the W. The goal would be a stat and scaling redesign to push him more into a bruiser role (see health scaling on his Q slam and total AD scaling instead of bonus AD scaling on abilities), which would also help alleviate the concern with Duskblade burst.

And lets move the knock up to the q, thematically it makes more sense, since it slams the staff down on the vector, impact pops them up.

The issue there is that it actually cuts deeply into our power budget, or it forces the Q cooldown to be significantly longer. I'd likely have to redesign on a larger scale than was intended here to give him meaningful CC on a basic ability, and that was beyond the scope of this exercise.

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

we have loads of champions with basic abilities that do knock up or hard CC, i think positioning Wu between tank and bruiser is a good thing, and it keeps that skirmisher spirit we all love from our favorite monkey gurilla warrior

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lios Ashenblade,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-02-04T17:18:58.630+0000)

we have loads of champions with basic abilities that do knock up or hard CC, i think positioning Wu between tank and bruiser is a good thing, and it keeps that skirmisher spirit we all love from our favorite monkey gurilla warrior

Right. But those champions are designed with that in mind, and it's usually not on as low a cooldown as Wukong's Q is. It's definitely doable but, again, not in this exercise which was, again, intentionally on the minimal changes side.

I'll also point out that the kit does position him as a skirmishing bruiser even without it. :P

Leonerdo1 votes

It seems like a cool kit. The ult especially is a definite improvement. And the ideas for the W sound really interesting, although I expect some of it would take several iterations of playtesting to get just right.

But I'm more worried about Wukong's identity and overall cohesion. A big part of his current issues is that his playstyle is kinda all over the place, with elements from the assassin, fighter/diver, and even vanguard class. It seems that you are pushing him more towards AoE and teamfight prowess (making him a better Jungler for sure) rather than single-target or dueling capabilities. But I'd rather hear that from you as an explicit goal.

As a maybe-problem, I would note that this kit looks quite similar to Xin Zhao's. The Q and E are quite similar to Xin's W and E (even the AS boost after using E), and both have AoE teamfight ults (not quite as similar). There a notable differences in their output, like Xin having more CC and single-target DPS from his Q, and Wukong obviously being better at escaping or tricking players with the Decoy. But I'm not sure it is enough to make Wukong a unique individual, deserving of his spot in the League roster, and pick-able over Xin regardless of balance. Maybe I'm being too weary, but I'd hate to revisit the ancient problem of "Why pick Fighter X, when Fighter Y does the same thing but better?"

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}It seems that you are pushing him more towards AoE and teamfight prowess (making him a better Jungler for sure) rather than single-target or dueling capabilities. But I'd rather hear that from you as an explicit goal.

My goal is to reduce his burst and enable a greater teamfight presence, whether brawling in the center or picking out a target. Ideally he should be functional in a duel (and I think he would be), but his main strengths should be mobility, stickiness, and trickiness.

As a maybe-problem, I would note that this kit looks quite similar to Xin Zhao's. The Q and E are quite similar to Xin's W and E (even the AS boost after using E), and both have AoE teamfight ults (not quite as similar). There a notable differences in their output, like Xin having more CC and single-target DPS from his Q, and Wukong obviously being better at escaping or tricking players with the Decoy. But I'm not sure it is enough to make Wukong a unique individual, deserving of his spot in the League roster, and pick-able over Xin regardless of balance. Maybe I'm being too weary, but I'd hate to revisit the ancient problem of"Why pick Fighter X, when Fighter Y does the same thing but better."

In this case I think they have very different outputs, honestly. Xin is primarily a single-target diver who has an in-your-face brawling pattern and breaks teams apart. Wukong is a tricky, sticky fighter who vanishes, repositions, and comes at you again from weird angles, bringing AoE CC into teamfights and leaping from target to target fairly frequently (since E has a very low cooldown). They each bring a pretty unique thing to the game, despite their similarities -- Xin has a sustained healing/brawling in-your-face pattern and teamwide disruption with single-target focus, and Wukong brings a spell-weaving, high-mobility bruiser style with a versatile CC ultimate.

YuGiHo1 votes

why does the passive give equal armor and magic resist when magic resist has more gold value than armor?

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

why does the passive give equal armor and magic resist when magic resist has more gold value than armor?

Partly because the current passive offers an equal amount (as do a lot of defense boosts), and partly because the effect builds over time. Growing magic resist over time is significantly weaker than growing armor, because most magic damage comes in bursts towards the start of a fight.

Teridax681 votes

Thoughts on this:

  • By and large, I feel these changes would make Wukong both more interesting to play and more interactive, without necessarily overloading him. This I think is a goal well-achieved.
  • With that said, it feels like each ability was individually changed to be more interactive (and more complex), without as much work going into making Wukong's kit flow together and synergize with itself as a whole. There is no particular relation between these abilities, a problem that already sort of exists in Wukong's current form to some extent, and I feel that if further work is to be done, it should aim to introduce more opportunities for him to combo his abilities off of each other.
  • In addition, I feel there's more that could be done to extract more of Wukong's lore and implement it in-game, both in League and from the original legend. Both his clones and elongating staff I think have more potential for cool gameplay besides just one decoy or one swipe-stab effect (or, in this case, swipe-smash), particularly since there are already plenty of effects in Wukong's original kit and the above version that display him using his clones or staff to apply certain effects. Just as an example, if his innate increased his staff range with every hit, which would then factor into his Q, E and ult range, that could already be an opportunity for thematic gameplay, as would putting his clone on a charge system and/or having it mimic Wukong's casts.
  • Not a super-important issue, but Nimble Fighter is already a title in use for Fizz's innate. Also, while Wukong already has a passive that offers him more resistances, I question whether resists are truly the most appropriate or interesting way of making Wukong more survivable. I might be in the minority on this, but I feel Wukong isn't actually a really tanky character, and instead relies on misdirection and trickery to survive incoming attacks, rather than outright durability. It is because of this as well that I would also personally lean more towards putting more emphasis on his clone as a means of evading damage, particularly since the above rework already aims to put more skill expression into Wukong via the mind games he can play.
  • While the above kit gives Wukong much more counterplay and interactivity, I'm still not entirely sure if it really gives him a niche. Wukong has some disparate elements that make him unique, namely his stealth, utility via armor reduction, and team initiation potential as a diver, but he's rarely shone on his own without being too strong altogether, in large part because those elements weren't tied together in a manner that gave him a totally unique contribution. Because of this, I would also look to refine his niche: do you want him to be a fighter who can initiate for his team? Do you want him to be a diver that can poke? Do you want him to be a more utility-focused character?

Overall, this looks like an excellent rework concept, particularly as it looks like it could significantly improve Wukong without turning him into a completely different champion, but I personally think there's still more that could be done to make him flow and stand out better. What's always disappointed me about Wukong is that the champion's obviously taken from Sun Wukong, a character with a tremendously rich set of skills, exploits, and unique personality traits that can all translate into amazing gameplay, yet has never lived up to that potential. He's not aged quite as badly as other bruisers, but he still relies on a lot of more generic power in order to be effective, when even his current playstyle already has a ton of potential for letting him do things no other fighter can do. Because of this, I think developing more on some of Wukong's themes, namely his clones and size-changing staff, could also allow him to satisfy your goals of making him more of a sustained fighter, while also enabling more cohesion and internal synergy to his kit.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}With that said, it feels like each ability was individually changed to be more interactive (and more complex), without as much work going into making Wukong's kit flow together and synergize with itself as a whole. There is no particular relation between these abilities, a problem that already sort of exists in Wukong's current form to some extent, and I feel that if further work is to be done, it should aim to introduce more opportunities for him to combo his abilities off of each other.

Out of curiosity, do you consider the following insufficient opportunities? Legitimately curious, as it's possible I'm overestimating the existing gameplay.

  • Engaging with E, transferring into W for the AD and shred, gaining the postponed E buffs in preparation for a long fight where you'll E again to sustain the AS boost for the entire fight when E comes off cooldown.
  • Using R or Q prior to your W to hold the target in place while you cook the W timer.
  • Using an E/W combo to bypass the front line and hit the back line for a R-based knockup and slow.
  • Using the W invisibility to position to a good angle to ensure Q lands.

I'll admit it's not huge on ability interaction, but I actually feel he has more than a lot of bruisers in the game. There's a unified theme of mobility and positioning, which I think gives him a clear direction.

In addition, I feel there's more that could be done to extract more of Wukong's lore and implement it in-game.

That was a bit out of scope for this rework. I did try to put in a bit more by giving him more frequent invisibility, better in-combat reward for trickery, more versatiility with spell casts, minor staff elongation (on the Q) and the smokepoppies from his lore, but ultimately the goal of this exercise was intentionally low-scope adjustments to his playstyle.

Because of this, I would also look to refine his niche: do you want him to be a fighter who can initiate for his team? Do you want him to be a diver that can poke? Do you want him to be a more utility-focused character?

His niche here is that of a mobile, sticky, team-fighter with a sustained damage output. It's actually a rather small niche, occupied mostly by people like Jax. Wukong's position here is great target access, versatile CC/damage as needed (due to how his ult works), and general trickiness.

I think developing more on some of Wukong';s themes, namely his clones and size-changing staff, could also allow him to satisfy your goals of making him more of a sustained fighter, while also enabling more cohesion and internal synergy to his kit.

Certainly. If I were aiming for a large-scale revision here there are numerous avenues that could be good directions to take. Personally, however, I'd prefer to veer away from Sun Wukong, precisely because I don't like the idea of just importing a legend into League. I personally see Wukong in Runeterra as a tricky, relatively non-magical staff fighter with a minorly enchnated staff, and that's about it -- even in his color story most of his tricks are due to flowers or straw decoys, and I think I'd prefer to emphasize that he's NOT some magical demi-deity but rather a tricky, hot-headed monkey who's good with a quarterstaff.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

Out of curiosity, do you consider the following insufficient opportunities?

  • Engaging with E, transferring into W for the AD and shred, gaining the postponed E buffs in preparation for a long fight where you'll E again to sustain the AS boost for the entire fight when E comes off cooldown.

There is no innate synergy between these abilities, and stringing them in sequence does not mean they are comboing off of each other. The very fact that you have to pause Wukong's attack speed bonus to make this work, an attack speed bonus that also achieves little for his Q or R, to me indicates that such an effect doesn't really contribute much to his gameplay, even if it currently exists on hit kit. Literally any dash could put Wukong in position to use his decoy as a delayed PBAoE onto enemies moving away from him (which also defeats the point of the decoy itself), and this dash in particular doesn't do anything especially well-suited for his W.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

  • Using R or Q prior to your W to hold the target in place while you cook the W timer.

Both of those instances of crowd control are, by your own indication, meant to be short, and also constitute an important part of Wukong's physical damage output on his kit, meaning that his armor shred only taking action after that may not in fact be ideal synergy. Again, literally any instance of mobility-related CC could be used to "cook" the W delay here; that does not mean that these particular abilities are especially well-suited towards this.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

  • Using an E/W combo to bypass the front line and hit the back line for a R-based knockup and slow.

As with the above, the combination of literally any dash and PBAoE achieves this all the same, so that is not what can make Wukong unique in this regard.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

  • Using the W invisibility to position to a good angle to ensure Q lands.

Again, stealth can ensure literally any effect has a better chance of landing, so this is not particularly relevant synergy. To pick an example of synergy, Vayne's dash gives her the near-instant repositioning she'd like to land her E, an ability dependent on her own positioning as well as her opponent's, whose effectiveness can vary wildly from moment to moment. It's not forced synergy, but is synergy all the same. This is the kind of synergy I'm talking about that's lacking in Wukong's kit, both right now and in the above iteration.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

I'll admit it's not huge on ability interaction, but I actually feel he has more than a lot of bruisers in the game. There's a unified theme of mobility and positioning, which I think gives him a clear direction.

"Mobility and positioning" is a defining feature of the diver subclass, and so cannot be used to define just one champion. Moreover, a great deal many divers, such as Vi, Jarvan IV, Warwick, etc., have much more well-defined synergy in their kits, far more than Wukong, and as such tend to flow significantly better in combat. Warwick in particular is a prime example of a champion that doesn't need much to have a lot of synergy, since his abilities play rather simply, but give him a diverse set of different options and comboes in fights (he can use his E in the middle of fights for protection, or in conjunction with his held-down Q early on to corral an opponent into his own team, for example).

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

His niche here is that of a mobile, sticky, team-fighter with a sustained damage output. It's actually a rather small niche, occupied mostly by people like Jax. Wukong's position here is great target access, versatile CC/damage as needed (due to how his ult works), and general trickiness.

Apologies if I'm coming off harsh, because I legitimately think you've done good work on this, but I really don't think what you described is a small niche at all. Divers like Kled, Xin Zhao, Vi, even tanks like Galio, Zac or Amumu all fit the bill of mobile, sticky, sustained damage teamfighters, and several of them also have great target access, versatile CC and damage to their name. Basing your champion around the ability to dash in, knock people up and slap them around for the remainder of the fight describes an increasingly large amount of League's roster, which is why I'm really laboring the point that there needs to be more differentiation in this respect. Having your teamfighting frontliner rely on trickery rather than raw durability is an excellent direction to take, but one that I think could be developed further than just a 1.5-second stealth/immobile clone every few seconds.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-02-05T14:18:25.177+0000)

Certainly. If I were aiming for a large-scale revision here there are numerous avenues that could be good directions to take. Personally, however, I'd prefer to veer away from Sun Wukong, precisely because I don't like the idea of just importing a legend into League. I personally see Wukong in Runeterra as a tricky, relatively non-magical staff fighter with a minorly enchnated staff, and that's about it -- even in his color story most of his tricks are due to flowers or straw decoys, and I think I'd prefer to emphasize that he's NOT some magical demi-deity but rather a tricky, hot-headed monkey who's good with a quarterstaff.

I agree that he doesn't need to be a copy-paste of Sun Wukong, but again, much of what you described is Sun Wukong, a character defined by his cunning and fighting prowess, who wins against opponents with much more mystical power than himself. Sun Wukong isn't some super-magical figure or whatnot, he's a popular hero precisely because he embodies very human values and abilities, and relies on his skill and wits, rather than some mystical control over the world or the elements, to go up against bigger fish (or dragons). I'm not asking you to make Wukong too magical a character, even if he is a Vastayan in Ionia, and thereby heavily predisposed to magic; rather, I think there are preexisting elements in his kit that could be developed just a bit to fulfill his fantasy much more. When players play Wukong, they're not just playing a monkey with a cudgel, they really are going for that fantasy of the defiant fighter who uses tricks to out-smart opponents in the face of overwhelming odds. In this respect, putting more emphasis on that, rather than just three different variations of him hitting his opponent with his staff, plus the occasional bit of stealth, could bring him much closer to his fantasy.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}There is no innate synergy between these abilities, and stringing them in sequence does not mean they are comboing off of each other.

May I then ask which similar characters you feel do this well? Because I legitimately think this is a common thing across the League cast, especially divers, excepting perhaps J4s flag.

Apologies if I'm coming off harsh, because I legitimately think you've done good work on this, but I really don't think what you described is a small niche at all

Harsh if fine. I prefer the term blunt, personally, but I'm all for blunt critique. :)

That said, a small-scale rework is not supposed to resolve every core issue with a character. I understand that may sound like a cop-out but, again, the goal of this was a low-scope gameplay fantasy adjustment. It could absolutely be developed further, but that was specifically beyond the scope of the exercise, as laid out in my opening paragraph. It was, frankly, more of a personal development exercise than a solution to all of Wukong's issues. :)

It's all good stuff to think about though, and I appreciate it. If I do a deeper dive in the future I'll keep it in mind.

That said, I'm not convinced that a character NEEDS in-built skill interactions so much as an opportunity to use the skills they have in skillful ways, which I personally think this kit improves upon (when compared to Wukong's existing kit). Many kits in the game lack specific interactions, and while I enjoy them I don't necessarily think a design suffers from a lack of them if the gameplay created is still strong. This design leans heavily on a versatile W for much of its gameplay complexity, and I'm not sure how much in the way of interaction this particular version of Wukong needs.

I feel a deeper scale rework more focused on his trickery aspects would absolutely contain more of that, and it's something I may well explore later. :)

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T15:20:50.821+0000)

May I then ask which similar characters you feel do this well? Because I legitimately think this is a common thing across the League cast, especially divers, excepting perhaps J4s flag.

I listed both Vayne and Warwick as examples in the above post, but to pick another example, Vi is a good example of a champion who flows smoothly thanks to her three-hit passive. Not only does she get a bonus effect every 3 strikes, one that specifically encourages her to continue focusing her target, but she also has a couple of auto resets, plus a dash that can contribute a stack: as a result, her kit synergizes well with itself because she's constantly keeping up this single-target punch-down, in a manner that both benefits her and sets her victim up to be killed by other physical damage-dealers, an appropriate strength for a police enforcer. There are interesting choices to be made, because her Q can be charged for more damage and mobility, but overall her kit feels coherent and synergistic without requiring too many extra mechanics.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T15:20:50.821+0000)

That said, a small-scale rework is not supposed to resolve every core issue with a character. I understand that may sound like a cop-out but, again, the goal of this was a low-scope gameplay fantasy adjustment. It could absolutely be developed further, but that was specifically beyond the scope of the exercise, as laid out in my opening paragraph. It was, frankly, more of a personal development exercise than a solution to all of Wukong's issues. :)

That I understand, but I'm not really asking for an overhaul here either, so much as a slightly different set of targeted adjustments that could enhance Wukong's gameplay without necessarily radically altering it. For example, if Wukong's innate cause his hits to increase his ranges, rather than grant bonus resists, he could still have his current EQR initiation combo, along with the associated progressive range increase, but would also be rewarded for a more sustained attack pattern that could improve his options over the course of combat.

It is also worth noting that the small-scale rework you are implementing is not entirely that small-scale: while his innate and E mostly just have added effects, his Q and R now have a completely different functionality from their current versions, while shifting his current Q to his W changes its use cases significantly. This would, in effect, change Wukong's gameplay to a much greater degree than just a more sustained damage playstyle. This might not be full VGU territory by itself, but is definitely more than the mini-reworks we occasionally see on the PBE: you have effectively put this rework on a scale comparable to that of a roster update (e.g. the Juggernaut/Assassin/Tank Update), which aims to do more than just encourage a champion to do one additional thing in combat.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T15:20:50.821+0000)

That said, I'm not convinced that a character NEEDS in-built skill interactions so much as an opportunity to use the skills they have in skillful ways, which I personally think this kit improves upon (when compared to Wukong's existing kit). Many kits in the game lack specific interactions, and while I enjoy them I don't necessarily think a design suffers from a lack of them if the gameplay created is still strong. This design leans heavily on a versatile W for much of its gameplay complexity, and I'm not sure how much in the way of interaction this particular version of Wukong needs.

I can agree with this to some extent: while I strongly believe that a kit needs internal synergy and coherence to stand out, there comes a point where if that synergy is forced, rather than implemented organically, the champion in question loses a lot of depth, and becomes a collection of moments in the designer's head, rather than a kit capable of shining in a much greater variety of situations. Kalista I think is an example of especially poorly implemented synergy, because her kit is loaded with a ton of different mechanics that individually only achieve only one or two things: her kit thereby has some amount of depth, but at far too great a complexity cost, and if you were to remove all of the forced interactions, such as the bonus on-hit damage/attack speed with her Oathsworn, she'd stop making sense, and would cease to be a truly interesting or unique champion.

With that said, when you veer on the opposite end of the scale, where a kit has lots of different effects with no particular relation to each other, you end up with what I've come to call a Tutti Frutti champion: said champion gets to do a lot of different things, and those things are probably really cool in themselves, but when you put those mechanics together, few to no emergent properties arise, and your champion ends up with little real direction or indication that they're doing well with the kit they've been given. This is something I've seen on a lot of concepts for brand new champions, where the creator typically had one or two really cool ability ideas in mind, then produced a bunch of filler to take up the remaining slots. While this is becoming rarer now, some champions in League still have Tutti Frutti kits, such as Tristana (though she was a lot worse prior to her E rework), Aatrox, or Dr. Mundo, and their lack of inter-kit synergy means it's typically difficult to balance them around any specific niche or set of contributions.

Going back to Wukong, this is basically what I mean when I keep talking about synergy: for sure, his W is versatile and should stay that way, but even within the small scope of a few number changes or added bonuses, I feel there's more that could be done to reward Wukong for playing well in different situations. For example, simply having the decoy reduce the armor of nearby targets upon detonating, without implementing a manual detonation or an on-hit effect, could already encourage Wukong to choose between using his decoy as a getaway, or hanging around it to trick enemies into giving him a combat advantage. The above suggested range steroid would also establish a clearer difference between Wukong's quick WER initiation combo, which would be reliable but weaker (it would hit fewer targets at a time), and an ult later in a fight, whose increased range would disable and damage more targets at a time. There should at least be some comboes in mind where it should be absolutely clear that Wukong gets more power out of his kit than if he played less well (and you get to define what that means in the context of his playstyle, and not just individual abilities).

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T15:20:50.821+0000)

I feel a deeper scale rework more focused on his trickery aspects would absolutely contain more of that, and it's something I may well explore later. :)

Best of luck with it! Again, to be clear, I think you've done great work on this kit as well, and I'd be very interested as well in seeing what you'd want to do on a full-scale Wukong update. For all the disagreements that I have, I think you've also set with some excellent goals and great ideas, which you've implemented on his kit in a healthy and interesting manner.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Vi is a good example of a champion who flows smoothly thanks to her three-hit passive. Not only does she get a bonus effect every 3 strikes, one that specifically encourages her to continue focusing her target, but she also has a couple of auto resets, plus a dash that can contribute a stack: as a result, her kit synergizes well with itself because she's constantly keeping up this single-target punch-down, in a manner that both benefits her and sets her victim up to be killed by other physical damage-dealers, an appropriate strength for a police enforcer.

I'm going to say this sounds like it is mostly a personal preference issue -- that frankly just seems like "Vi's abilities work towards a specific goal and playstyle," which this does: maintain a teamfight presence until you get the ability to pick a marked target, then pop into view and beat them the hell up. He has a consistent playstyle of extend periods of rapid beatdowns following lulls where he repositions via invisibility, and can choose to take advantage of changes in the fight to reposition and swap the targets of his ire, or choose to dive into a group to implement CC. He's less hyper-focused on a single specific playstyle than Vi specifically because Wukong IS more adapative and unpredictable.

I get that you may not agree with that, but I think a breakdown on WHY this doesn't give you what you seem to consider a satisfying interaction may be more useful for helping me see precisely what you mean here, because right now it's not really coming across (a fact that's exacerbated by other input I've received, and makes me think this may be more a subjective concern than an objective one. Not to discount your opinion, but that suggests that it will help more to see what you don't like about THIS SPECIFICALLY in implementation rather than what you like about other things, and why/where you see specific failure points in the design).

For example, if Wukong's innate cause his hits to increase his ranges, rather than grant bonus resists, he could still have his current EQR initiation combo, along with the associated progressive range increase, but would also be rewarded for a more sustained attack pattern that could improve his options over the course of combat.

I think that doesn't really play to his strengths. When you're as mobile as he is you don't really need the increased reach, and that also doesn't really assist in the bruiser-style gameplay I was going for here, nor offer the same reward for diving into a team and getting off multi-target abilities, since with a slow, a blink, a dash, and a knockup you can keep targets close. Like, it's a cool mechanic, but it doesn't really help this kit, in my opinion.

It is also worth noting that the small-scale rework you are implementing is not entirely that small-scale: while his innate and E mostly just have added effects, his Q and R now have a completely different functionality from their current versions, while shifting his current Q to his W changes its use cases significantly.

We may have to agree to disagree on the scope of the changes here and how much they impact his playstyle. I'll agree that the output changes slightly in terms of how it occurs, but the only huge change in HOW he plays is the W reward. Q is still a low-cooldown AD slam that you'll use when it's up, W is still a tricky ability, and R is still an AoE knockup. It's probably more of a mid-sized change than a low-scope, ultimately.

There should at least be some comboes in mind where it should be absolutely clear that Wukong gets more power out of his kit than if he played less well (and you get to define what that means in the context of his playstyle, and not just individual abilities).

I think you're undervaluing the skill expression that currently exist. For example, the fact that the Q (especially the on-hit AoE trigger) reward great positioning that you can achieve using your W and E, that the passive encourages and rewards well-placed Qs and Rs, that you're warded for being patient and finding the right time to W, or can W on multiple targets and then chase down whichever one looks most vulnerable, etc. There ARE moments in how you use your kit and your ability interactions that can get you bigger rewards, and, while I understand they may not personally be the ones you want, it does feel like you're discounting several of them outright.

I'm by no means arguing that it's perfect (it's a 15-minute design, so I know it won't be), but it's coming across like you're discounting the interactions, flow, and skill expression in this kit.

Maybe your argument against this just isn't coming through clearly, but I still really don't have a good idea what issues you actually have with the kit and/or how it plays.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

I'm going to say this sounds like it is mostly a personal preference issue -- that frankly just seems like "Vi's abilities work towards a specific goal and playstyle,"

But it's not just that: Vi's kit clearly indicates a sequence of actions that are exceptionally successful compared to alternatives, in a manner that uses the totality of her kit in a manner unique to her own playstyle. The situations I have listed out, such as when she sacrifices her Q mobility and damage for an extra stack, are unique to her, and therefore represent an emergent property of her kit. As mentioned before, Vi is also not the only example I have listed, and I have similarly listed comboes for Vayne and Warwick that make unique use of their own ability sets in order to achieve synergy. This is not a subjective assessment.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

which this does: maintain a teamfight presence until you get the ability to pick a marked target, then pop into view and beat them the hell up. He has a consistent playstyle of extend periods of rapid beatdowns following lulls where he repositions via invisibility, and can choose to take advantage of changes in the fight to reposition and swap the targets of his ire, or choose to dive into a group to implement CC.

Again, very little of this is specific to Wukong. Kha'Zix also creates lulls in combat, for example, and has much more emphasis on swapping targets in accordance with his own isolation mechanic, while also being able to apply CC, even if it is not in the form of a knockup. Galio creates lulls by charging his W, which themselves apply CC, and can similarly choose to focus specific targets and change in accordance with the flow of combat. What I've been trying to point out is that this kind of description is on a level that is far too general to describe just one champion: it is one thing to be versatile, and another to only do things that other champions do as well in the broad lines of their own kit. Using Wukong's clone to clump enemies together and follow up with his AoE is an example of a combo specific to the champion (and just an example, not something you need to implement, depending on your goals), yet it is that particular kind of specific synergy that is lacking in the description of his intended playstyle you are giving me.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

I get that you may not agree with that, but I think a breakdown on WHY this doesn't give you what you seem to consider a satisfying interaction may be more useful for helping me see precisely what you mean here, because right now it's not really coming across

I have given a point-by-point breakdown of the comboes you listed and explained why they lacked specific synergy. I then gave examples of champions with specific synergy. Following that, I gave another example, and went into greater detail as to why that champion had synergy that was unique to them. I also subsequently went at length into establishing which kinds of synergies I considered specific, in opposition to forced synergies and lack of synergy. In view of this, I am not quite sure what it is that is not coming across when discussing an appropriately specific level of interaction for Wukong.

To me, for an interaction to be specific, it has to be unique to that champion, and so whichever description you are using cannot be so broad as to be applicable to another. For an interaction to be emergent, it needs to arise from your kit in a manner that cannot simply be described as the linear sequence of the general effects its abilities represent: put another way, it needs to be more than the sum of its parts. If your interaction is both specific and emergent, then that is a good indicator of in-kit synergy.

When you made a bulletpoint list of interactions you had in mind, one of my main criticisms was that the interactions you listed were not emergent, i.e. they did not rely on the unique properties of Wukong's kit, and could have just as easily been achievable by stringing together an equivalent sequence of generic effects, i.e. generic mobility, generic PBAoE, generic invisibility, etc. When you gave a description of the playstyle you deemed unique to Wukong, my main criticism was that this playstyle was not specific enough, because it could just as well be used to describe other champions. Literally any fighter champion creates lulls in combat when their cooldowns are down, for example, and these champions typically use this downtime to reposition anyway, so that cannot be a guiding principle for Wukong, and Wukong only. If you were to say something more specific, such as "Wukong uses his decoy to corral enemies into a certain area, before following up with the short-ranged AoE on his dash and a super-effective group knockup" (and again, this does not need to be the specific direction you will take, this is just an example), then you would already have a much stronger guiding principle for emergent interactions, because you would have just come up with a situation unique to Wukong.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

I think that doesn't really play to his strengths. When you're as mobile as he is you don't really need the increased reach, and that also doesn't really assist in the bruiser-style gameplay I was going for here, nor offer the same reward for diving into a team and getting off multi-target abilities, since with a slow, a blink, a dash, and a knockup you can keep targets close. Like, it's a cool mechanic, but it doesn't really help this kit, in my opinion.

Sure, but that's not my point: perhaps the ability may not suit your own goals, and as such wouldn't be a part of your own rework concept, but it is nonetheless an example of what you could do to implement gameplay unique to Wukong. It does not have to be the one you pick, but if you want a successful concept you will still eventually have to find a way to make Wukong fight in a way that is uniquely Wukong, rather than Random Diver X with an attack speed steroid and some high-uptime durability. I'm not saying your kit is completely generic, but it still operates in a manner that relies on a lot of generic power, such as his attack speed and resists, instead of stuff that is more unique or impactful.

On a slightly different note, I'm also becoming more confused as to what is it you actually want out of Wukong's fighting style: by and large, you seem to have put more emphasis on his stealth/decoy, and have said several times that you wanted to bring out the tricky part of his character, but now you're telling me you want "bruiser-style gameplay", which implies a much more generic manner of tanking and dishing out damage. Considering how these two aspects go up against each other (more durability isn't useful while stealthed, and stealth doesn't help you straight-up tank more damage), you might want to decisively address whether you want a Wukong who lasts longer in fights by tanking harder, or who does so by evading more damage. This is not something you need a large-scale rework for either, as something like on-hit CDR to his decoy could achieve sustained fighting through stealth just fine.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

We may have to agree to disagree on the scope of the changes here and how much they impact his playstyle. I'll agree that the output changes slightly in terms of how it occurs, but the only huge change in HOW he plays is the W reward. Q is still a low-cooldown AD slam that you'll use when it's up, W is still a tricky ability, and R is still an AoE knockup. It's probably more of a mid-sized change than a low-scope, ultimately.

Hold up: how exactly are we "agreeing to disagree" here? When people agree to disagree, it is because they operate on a fundamentally different set of axioms, such that their claims are not formulated or evaluated on the same criteria. If the mode of reference is the same, then there is no such issue, and therefore strictly no reason for two people to agree to disagree on good faith. In this particular case, the mode of reference I have cited are League's own reworks, using VGUs, roster updates and individual mini-updates as examples, which we both know of. In this respect, when you make a change where, say, an autoattack reset gets turned into a slash-and-stab combo, as happened exactly in the case of Rengar's Assassin Update rework, that change is on a larger scope than the kind of update that gets done by, say, adjusting Udyr's Q and W bonuses to accommodate more builds, and so objectively cannot be described as small-scope by League's standards. If Garen were to have Judgment swapped with Zac's old ult, that would also change the way he'd use the ability on a much more fundamental level than simple balance tuning, because he'd have an entirely new ability: this is what you have done with Wukong's ult, therefore it is not a small-scope change. This in itself isn't bad, it is simply not the kind of change that gets done on small-scope updates, if that is your goal.

Teridax681 votes

Following up because my comment got too wordy:

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

I think you're undervaluing the skill expression that currently exist. For example, the fact that the Q (especially the on-hit AoE trigger) reward great positioning that you can achieve using your W and E, that the passive encourages and rewards well-placed Qs and Rs, that you're warded for being patient and finding the right time to W, or can W on multiple targets and then chase down whichever one looks most vulnerable, etc. There ARE moments in how you use your kit and your ability interactions that can get you bigger rewards, and, while I understand they may not personally be the ones you want, it does feel like you're discounting several of them outright.

I don't doubt that there are rewards to be had from playing Wukong well. Now tell me what those rewards are, and how you're enabling them with your kit.

Example: I am playing Sion, and I just pressed W. Because it is a shield, and can be detonated to deal damage, I could use it pre-emptively just for the damage, in combat purely to absorb damage, or in some cases to do both. When I successfully do both, I am visibly rewarded, because my shield bar has gone down to a sliver (meaning I maximized its shielding component), and immediately afterwards I have just made a dent in my opponent's health bar as well. All of this can be done with good timing, good positioning, team follow-up, etc., but the important part is that there are clear metrics by which I can measure how successfully I used my ability, and clear, immediately quantifiable differences between optimal and suboptimal usage of my kit. If there is skill expression in Wukong's kit, but that skill expression cannot be clearly described, or boiled down to one or two factors that you clearly maximized, then there is a problem of unclear player feedback for their skill expression.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T17:07:21.065+0000)

I'm by no means arguing that it's perfect (it's a 15-minute design, so I know it won't be), but it's coming across like you're discounting the interactions, flow, and skill expression in this kit.

Maybe your argument against this just isn't coming through clearly, but I still really don't have a good idea what issues you actually have with the kit and/or how it plays.

Literally the first item of feedback I gave on this thread was that I think your changes make Wukong more interesting to play and more interactive. What I have been consistently trying to point out is that Wukong lacks a strongly-defined and truly unique niche, and does not make full use of the untapped potential in his theme and skillset (which is itself different from saying he makes no use of it), issues that I feel still persist after your proposed changes. After reading through your kit, I still do not know why I should pick Wukong instead of the competition for pure gameplay reasons, nor do I get a clear picture of the fantasy you are trying to craft for Wukong, and only Wukong. It is because of this that I am pushing you to dig a little deeper, without necessarily going off scope, because I think there is still more to be done to refine the good work you have produced already.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

If your interaction is both specific and emergent, then that is a good indicator of in-kit synergy.

I feel there's more emergent depth to the functionality of the W than it seems on the surface, especially combined with the S command, and I had personally been seeing that as the core of Wukong's emergent gameplay. With this, it seems like you are weighing it differently, but this was helpful to me to see that not everyone weighs that as much.

If you were to say something more specific, such as "Wukong uses his decoy to corral enemies into a certain area, before following up with the short-ranged AoE on his dash and a super-effective group knockup"

I'm going to say I somewhat disagree with this, because I'm personally wary of kit design that is so pushed into a certain ideal situation. It can lead to very good kits, but there's value in exploring the opposite as well. I was intentionally trying to give Wukong less obvious synergies and less specific interactions/combos because I wanted his play to feel less constrained. Perhaps I didn't push that far enough.

but now you're telling me you want "bruiser-style gameplay", which implies a much more generic manner of tanking and dishing out damage.

I don't think bruiser-style necessary implies generic tanking/dishing of damage. To me "bruiser" simply implies durable, sustained damage. I think it's fine to be a tricky bruiser, personally, although maybe I didn't hit it.

This is not something you need a large-scale rework for either, as something like on-hit CDR to his decoy could achieve sustained fighting through stealth just fine.

...he...he has that. :P

{quoted}I don't doubt that there are rewards to be had from playing Wukong well. Now tell me what those rewards are, and how you're enabling them with your kit.

Aside from good positioning and use of your mobility enabling you to knock up an entire team (at once or in waves, with extra damage being your reward if you can trap and follow a team enough to hit priority targets with multiple Rs) along with strong AoE positioning charging your defenses up at a rapid pace, the way you're rewarded for using your abilities in the correct order by having opponents have less time to run before your W proc, and the fact that your W (or faking out your W with the S key) enables you to bait out enemy abilities or position yourself in optimal situations, perhaps not much. I honestly do believe these abilities are designed in ways to provide rewards.

When I successfully do both, I am visibly rewarded...

The W enables mobility and stealth, but optimally rewards you for using it in a position where your team can control the target (or you have room to safely move with the target) long enough to get the bonus. Additionally, you can get additional visual rewards out of it by successfully baiting out enemy spells or abilities, or pulling enemies out of position when they see a vulnerable target.

The clear metrics here are the damage you gain, the spells your decoy takes, and the increased damage you clearly deal after the shred goes down. The passive also provides a metric of increased durability the more you've successfully struck targets, rewarding you for using your AoE abilities properly in a way beyond merely damage.

I'll admit that, due the the mind-games that W deals in, more of this kit's feedback on that key ability is perhaps not as visible as, say, Sion's shield or Xin Zhao's ult. I don't think that is necessarily bad.

...but that skill expression cannot be clearly described, or boiled down to one or two factors that you clearly maximized, then there is a problem of unclear player feedback for their skill expression.

My feeling is this is slightly oversimplifying. I think some styles of ability -- specifically decoy-style abilities -- may be more complex than that in how players appreciate feedback. Seeing an ability wasted on a fake-out, however, is super visceral and meaningful feedback.

Perhaps I could help resolve some of this with an increased visual on the passive, which would add a bit more "feel good" to optimal use, even if it doesn't really change the output.

It is because of this that I am pushing you to dig a little deeper, without necessarily going off scope, because I think there is still more to be done to refine the good work you have produced already.

Ah. There we go. I did not really get this point from your earlier comments -- possibly a misunderstanding or miscommunication, possibly an oversight on my part, possibly just a need for it said so clearly. Apologies for that.

Personally I feel there are still compelling reasons to pick Wukong (his ability to threaten AoE crowd control over a six-second period time even after an initial use is rather unique among bruisers or even tanks and can be super punishing if a team is split up at all, and he also has a fairly unique ability to burn enemy CC on a dummy after an initiation), but if those strengths aren't coming across then perhaps I'm overvaluing their appeal, need to strength their output, or push something else.

And, on a minor point:

when you make a change where, say, an autoattack reset gets turned into a slash-and-stab combo, as happened exactly in the case of Rengar's Assassin Update rework, that change is on a larger scope than the kind of update that gets done by, say, adjusting Udyr's Q and W bonuses to accommodate more builds, and so objectively cannot be described as small-scope by League's standards.

I would call that an adjustment rather than a rework in Udyr's case. I'd call Rengar's a small-scope to moderate-scope rework, in that it adjusts him while retaining the core of his gameplay more or less intact, in more or less a similar form. But it's largely semantics. :)


Anyway, I'll keep some of this in mind if/when I take another look at this. Appreciate the feedback.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

I'm going to say I somewhat disagree with this, because I'm personally wary of kit design that is so pushed into a certain ideal situation.

Please refer to this paragraph which I have written prior in this conversation:

{quoted}

I can agree with this to some extent: while I strongly believe that a kit needs internal synergy and coherence to stand out, there comes a point where if that synergy is forced, rather than implemented organically, the champion in question loses a lot of depth, and becomes a collection of moments in the designer's head, rather than a kit capable of shining in a much greater variety of situations. Kalista I think is an example of especially poorly implemented synergy, because her kit is loaded with a ton of different mechanics that individually only achieve only one or two things: her kit thereby has some amount of depth, but at far too great a complexity cost, and if you were to remove all of the forced interactions, such as the bonus on-hit damage/attack speed with her Oathsworn, she'd stop making sense, and would cease to be a truly interesting or unique champion.

This topic has therefore been covered already in this exchange. I am not trying to push your kit into performing well in just a couple of situations; however, the problem I am identifying right now is that there are no specific situations where Wukong shines in a manner totally unique to him. I thereby invite you to come up with a few examples of situations that Wukong wins hard, not to force him around just those, but to help guide him towards a line of gameplay where he succeeds more visibly by playing a certain way than by doing other things.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

I was intentionally trying to give Wukong less obvious synergies and less specific interactions/combos because I wanted his play to feel less constrained. Perhaps I didn't push that far enough.

Constrained how? If your champion is feeling constrained, then chances are that there is insufficient depth to their kit, rather than too much synergy. Being rewarded for playing a certain way and being forced to do so are two different things, and it does not have to be a categorical either-or if your champion's kit is put on a sliding scale between power and reliability.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

I don't think bruiser-style necessary implies generic tanking/dishing of damage. To me "bruiser" simply implies durable, sustained damage.

I'm having trouble seeing the distinction here. Perhaps you just want Wukong to have a more sustained fighting pattern via stealth, but that is different from a typical bruiser fighting style, where the bruiser relies on damage mitigation or absorption to continue surviving. More resists falls into the latter camp. Maybe you want Wukong to have a bit of both, but in that case you might be better off with sustain or shields, because resists only build off of static health, and thereby are especially poorly-suited for a sustained fighting pattern.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

Aside from good positioning and use of your mobility enabling you to knock up an entire team (at once or in waves, with extra damage being your reward if you can trap and follow a team enough to hit priority targets with multiple Rs) along with strong AoE positioning charging your defenses up at a rapid pace, the way you're rewarded for using your abilities in the correct order by having opponents have less time to run before your W proc, and the fact that your W (or faking out your W with the S key) enables you to bait out enemy abilities or position yourself in optimal situations, perhaps not much.

Please describe literally any aspect of this that is unique to Wukong. Additionally, it would help if you contrasted these situations with suboptimal use cases, and thereby determined what exactly the reward is in each situation, and what gameplay is encouraged to obtain it.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

The W enables mobility and stealth, but optimally rewards you for using it in a position where your team can control the target (or you have room to safely move with the target) long enough to get the bonus.

So your W is designed to reward your team for having crowd control, is what you're saying. What good gameplay does this entail from Wukong? Again, list out a situation where Wukong uses this well, versus a situation where he uses this ability less well.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

Additionally, you can get additional visual rewards out of it by successfully baiting out enemy spells or abilities, or pulling enemies out of position when they see a vulnerable target.

Baiting enemy spells is something a little closer to Wukong's identity, I think, as it is more specific to him. Nonetheless, this is still an effect common to clone champions, and is not in any way an effect your kit changes develop on. If you really want to develop on this, it might be appropriate to give Wukong a bonus for soaking up enemy threat with his clone.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

The clear metrics here are the damage you gain, the spells your decoy takes, and the increased damage you clearly deal after the shred goes down. The passive also provides a metric of increased durability the more you've successfully struck targets, rewarding you for using your AoE abilities properly in a way beyond merely damage.

Damage gained as opposed to what? Increased damage relative to which situation? Again, you have metrics, but those metrics aren't nearly as clear as, say, the difference between damage and zero damage. What's more is that you are offering no comparative situations where Wukong's power suffers for misplaying, so there is effectively no proposed control case here either.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

I'll admit that, due the the mind-games that W deals in, more of this kit's feedback on that key ability is perhaps not as visible as, say, Sion's shield or Xin Zhao's ult. I don't think that is necessarily bad.

I completely disagree, I think mind games tend to be highly impactful, because manipulating an enemy into wasting resources on a decoy is felt heavily by both the player and the victim. Building more on this by focusing more of Wukong's survivability on his clone, rather than generic defenses, is what could refine his sustained fighting pattern as a fighter. It is not something that requires a secondary active, three independent conditions and an extra passive to achieve.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

My feeling is this is slightly oversimplifying. I think some styles of ability -- specifically decoy-style abilities -- may be more complex than that in how players appreciate feedback. Seeing an ability wasted on a fake-out, however, is super visceral and meaningful feedback.

It is not oversimplifying; if you cannot even find one clear metric by which your ability has clearly been used optimally, then it does not offer clear feedback. Incidentally, the example you gave of a decoy soaking up enemy abilities is an instance of clear feedback, which is why it holds up to that test. What remains, however, is to capitalize on that in a manner unique to Wukong, since none of your additions to the decoy itself build upon this gameplay.

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=azQGa8ml,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-02-05T19:22:46.058+0000)

Personally I feel there are still compelling reasons to pick Wukong (his ability to threaten AoE crowd control over a six-second period time even after an initial use is rather unique among bruisers or even tanks and can be super punishing if a team is split up at all, and he also has a fairly unique ability to burn enemy CC on a dummy after an initiation),

If the very first reason to pick Wukong that comes to mind is that he can threaten a knockup over a six-second period, a trait that used to be shared with Zac, then chances are there's a lot more that could be done to make him stand out. Again, I'm not asking for a 15-minute draft to solve all of Wukong's problems, but the fact remains that there is quite likely more that could be done to develop his theme, and it perplexes me that it has taken a very large multiple of the time and resources originally invested into this thread just to arrive at this assessment.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

..but the fact remains that there is quite likely more that could be done to develop his theme

Something that I have never disagreed with.

and it perplexes me that it has taken a very large multiple of the time and resources originally invested into this thread just to arrive at this assessment.

In that case I will apologize and take no more of your time. I appreciate your points and agree with many of them, but some I do not agree with and I don't wish to bother you unnecessarily with a 15-minute exercise, my goals for which were not as precisely aligned with what your preferred output (and preferred re-positioning of Wukong's gameplay) would be. I will definitely revisit your input in the future if I decide to further pursue this design.

GhaelWinds1 votes

Ok so I enjoy this rework more than a few others I've seen on the boards. A few notes though.

P: invisible power is something that riot has steadily been trying to get rid of and this passive reeks of it. Really the easiest way to fix this problem is if a visual effect was added for each stat but I feel that would get cluttered on his model. This is probably the only part of this kit that I would say needs to be fully looked at a bit. There's a reason why his current passive isn't very appreciated.

Q: Good ability, I just have a question. Would first half be instant and second half have a delay? Roughly what's the amount of time this ability takes to full go through.

W: Having to wait for the entire duration of being invisibility loses time in a combo as you wait to leave invisibility. If you tried for a faster combo then you risk losing the damage. I feel like if the tooltip says what you say but it has like a .1 sec forgiveness. That would fix that problem.

E: Good love it.

R: Maybe change the name from "dizzy" to something less child-like? Like he's a trickster but he isn't a baby monkey. Maybe even something like "Whiplashed" I don't really know WHAT to change it to but dizzy rubs me the wrong way.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}P: invisible power is something that riot has steadily been trying to get rid of and this passive reeks of it.

This sort of passive still exists in a few places (Wukong, Graves, etc), but an effect that shows it's strength at certain levels would certainly be feasible as a low-level graphical effect. Frankly a fairly easy fix. I do think the effect is appropriate for a more bruiser-based Wukong that needs to be survivable later in combat.

There's a reason why his current passive isn't very appreciated.

I think this is partly due to how little control you have over it. This one actually gives you a reward for playing the way you're supposed to, which automatically makes it more appreciable, and a particle effect of some kind would further help reinforce that.

Q: Good ability, I just have a question. Would first half be instant and second half have a delay? Roughly what's the amount of time this ability takes to full go through.

Off the top of my head, maybe about half a second. Highly variable depend on testing.

W: Having to wait for the entire duration of being invisibility loses time in a combo as you wait to leave invisibility. If you tried for a faster combo then you risk losing the damage.

That is intentional. The price he pays for more reliable and more useful in-combat invisibility is backloading his DPS a bit -- partly because it reduces the threat of assassin Wukong by spacing out his kill window. You'd have a big visual cue as well (and likely a building visual bar ala the time graphics of Evelynn or Fizz). Some wiggle room might be nice though. Will consider it!

I don't really know WHAT to change it to but dizzy rubs me the wrong way.

Staggered, maybe? It was a quick place-holder name. :)

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

I think the W has too much going on. Since the Q is new and probably more powerful, you can probably shift the armor shred onto the slam hit to preserve flavor. The W granting a blink, plus the extra damage on auto just seems like a straight buff no matter how you cut it, even if you nerfed the Q or E damage. It's also cramming damage onto what should be a utility spell (not even mentioning the fact that his passive is super good in 1v1s now).

A blink + invis and leaving a damaging clone seems like enough.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Pretty cool! I think you have some really neat ideas here; love the new Q and R, in particular.

I'm not convinced, wholesale, that his frustrating laning pattern would be eliminated by this, though. It looks to me like poking with E+Q+W is still viable, and when they're low enough, you would just use the bonus damage on W to secure the kill. As long as he has a gap closer and the decoy, I'm not sure how you avoid the assassin pattern.

I think I would prefer a Wukong that didn't have nimbus strike, as he would then have to choose whether to use decoy as offense or defense, but the two of them together seem like a problematic design for a diver to me. No other diver has a combination like that (that I can think of).

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

nice work

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