Fiddlesticks Rework Concept: Are you afraid?

ModKnightsKemplar··25 votes·1,705 views

Feb 2 morning edit: Gave him a new Q with his scythe, clarified W a bit, and updated passive to have less fear duration, but capable of fearing multiple targets. Updated thoughts at the end.

Fiddlesticks does not capitalize on his theme well. He's an old champ, so this is expected, but there's real opportunity to showcase some spooky scarecrow mechanics that I think would be really interesting in the modern League environment.

To me, the scariest thing about the "murder scarecrow" archetype is that you don't know if it's a regular, inanimate scarecrow or a bloodthirsty, stabby scarecrow until it's too late. This concept replaces Fiddles Q, the most uninspired point n' click skill in the game, with Scarecrows that Fiddlesticks uses to scout and to attack his opponents.

In a successful implementation, interacting with Fiddlesticks' scarecrows should be a compelling risk/reward calculation for the opponent. If Fiddles is close-by, approaching them should be a risky proposition. If he isn't, the enemy should capitalize on that and destroy them while they have the chance.


Passive- Terrify After being unseen for at least 3 seconds, Fiddlesticks' next damaging ability fears enemy champions damaged by that ability for (.5/1/1.5, scales with R rank) seconds.

Q- Soul Reap Fiddlesticks summons a spectral scythe in a cone towards the cursor to reap the souls of his enemies. Fiddlesticks deals magic damage (AP scaling) to enemies hit and recovers health for every enemy champion hit (scales with lvl and maybe AP). If Fiddlesticks successfully hits an enemy with this ability, 50% of the cooldown is refunded.

Scarecrows also summon their own scythes directed at the cursor, but these scythes do not damage minions or monsters, only enemy champions (do not refund cooldown)

W- Scarecrow Fiddlesticks erects an inanimate replica of himself after channeling on a location within 200 units for 2 seconds. He may place (1/2/3/4/5) scarecrows that each have 3 health (similar to ward health, autos only), are fully visible to enemies, and reveal a small patch of vision around them (less than wards; similar to Teemo shroom range?).

If Fiddlesticks remains motionless for 3 seconds, he can cast W on a Scarecrow within 3000 range to switch places with it.

E- Dark Wind Unleashes a Crow at the targeted enemy, dealing magic damage (AP scaling) before bouncing to another target. Dark Wind can strike up to 6 times and will prioritize enemies it has not yet hit. Crows can bounce off Scarecrows. Deals 150% damage to minions and monsters.

R- Crowstorm Fiddlesticks channels for 1.5 seconds, then blinks to the target point unleashing a murder of crows that flock wildly around him, dealing magic damage (AP scaling) per second to all enemy units in the area. The effect lasts for 5 seconds. While Crowstorm is active, Scarecrows inside the area do not take damage from being attacked.


I did not include [many] numbers intentionally on this. I'm more interested in critique of the design itself than I am with the minutia of balance. One thing you might miss in this kit on your first read is that I removed the silence on Dark Wind.

The most important idea here is that Fiddlesticks is rewarded to playing intelligently around Scarecrows, but his opponent has some opportunity to play around them, as well. They are mostly useful as limited vision; not much offensive capability with them. I hope that's enough to keep them balanced, but having that much vision might spell trouble, too (though it seems to be okay with Teemo, maybe it's fine).

Feel free to tear into this; I only spent about an hour on it and I'm mostly interested in the discussion that comes out of it. I don't have any attachments to any particular part of this kit. I just wanted to see if I could incorporate scarecrows into his kit in a way that resonated with people.

**Feb 2 morning edit: I think the new Q suits him better thematically and preserves the feeling of drain without requiring Fiddles to be motionless. Enemies should be rewarded for dodging the Q, so I added a refund mechanic to CD that allows Fiddles to use it frequently if he's hitting, but less frequently if he ever misses (I know I didn't specify a CD for it, but I imagine it as 6-10 seconds without the refund).

New passive allows him to fear more people, but for a smaller duration. This might allow Fiddles to have better big moments that he can facilitate himself, though I suspect that allowing a fear on ult will require a reduction in damage from live to be balanced (and I think that's fine).**

48 Comments

Noxian Pride7 votes

As an ex-fiddlesticks main, this idea actually sounds relatively original and refreshing. It'd probably get me playing him again, I like it.

Crett5 votes

i like the idea of giving fiddlesticks huge map presence, thumbs up*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

Thanks!

I think it fits the theme. You can't really justify turning Summoner's Rift into a Corn Maze just to make Fiddlesticks feel scary, but I feel like some extra scarecrows to allow him to "claim territory" in some way makes sense.

It always makes me feel a little bad that Evelynn, Rengar, and Warwick have such cool interactions while you can't see them, but Fiddles has nothing. If this works, I think it should make you feel nervous about going to Fiddles, as opposed to the others I mentioned that tend to make you feel like you're being hunted.

Disulfiram2 votes

{quoted}

You can't really justify turning Summoner's Rift into a Corn Maze just to make Fiddlesticks feel scary

Maximus Decimus Pantheon confirmed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW_uCZQsLP8

[sg-miss-fortune]

AgeOfTheMage5 votes

I LOVE the scarecrow idea! like shaco almost! if he was like this i'd probably play him as I love playing mind games with opponents.

Disulfiram2 votes

Good analogy, this change would make Fiddle a lategame/teamfighting version of the invader/splitpusher Shaco.

[sg-lux]

ModThe Djinn5 votes

W- Scarecrow Fiddlesticks erects an inanimate replica of himself. He may place (1/2/3/4/5) scarecrows that each have 3 health (similar to ward health, autos only) and reveal a small patch of vision around them (less than wards; similar to Teemo shroom range?).

If Fiddlesticks remains motionless for 3 seconds, he can cast W on a Scarecrow within 3000 range to switch places with it.

I'll start with this, as it's sort of the core of your new kit. My concern here is that this gives Fiddlesticks too much power and a LOT of frustration. Mostly because Scarecrows aren't super engaging or fun on their own, but since he can immediately W to them from 3000 range and, in doing so, apply hard CC immediately to you, you have to either ignore them entirely (giving Fiddlesticks S-tier map presence) or hope he's not moving and kill them in 3 seconds or less, in which case he can't do anything meaningful.

While I like the idea of a map-control Fiddlesticks, I'm not sure this is the best way to go about it, as, as mentioned, this doesn't really lead to especially engaging gameplay.

Passive- Terrify After being unseen for at least 3 seconds, Fiddlesticks' next Drain or Dark Wind fears the first champion damaged by that ability for (1/2/3, scales with R rank) seconds. Enemies that recently attacked a Scarecrow will also be feared if hit by Drain or Dark Wind.

A fine ability, although see above for concerns about the fact that the Scarecrow interact isn't especially meaningful.

Q- Drain Fiddlesticks creates a tether to the target unit and channels Drain on it, granting True Sight and dealing magic damage (AP scaling) per second to the target. Fiddlesticks heals for a % of the damage dealt (% scales with Q rank). Drain lasts up to 5 seconds and returns cooldown equal to its remaining duration if the target dies.

If an enemy would break the original tether by moving out of range, but is in tether range of a Scarecrow, Fiddlesticks will automatically swap to the location of the Scarecrow and maintain the tether.

I don't like the automatic swap, which can really mess with you. I feel it might be stronger letting the SCARECROW continue the tether, so that they have to run through a field of scarecrows that each begin draining them for the duration. Still, I'm not super sold on that either way, as it makes Fiddlesticks more of a set-up champion that a stalking scarecrow, and I think that plays at odds with the "lurk out of sight and CAWCAWCAWCAWCAW."

E- Dark Wind Unleashes a Crow at the targeted enemy, dealing magic damage (AP scaling) before bouncing to another target. Dark Wind can strike up to 6 times and will prioritize enemies being Drained or ones it has not yet hit. Crows can bounce off Scarecrows. Deals 150% damage to minions and monsters.

Not much has changed here, which is fine, although when you say it prioritizes enemies being drained you should say in what order -- as written it looks like it prioritizes enemies being drained and THEN those not hit yet, which makes it a very reliable damage effect. Is that intentional?

R- Crowstorm Fiddlesticks channels for 1.5 seconds, then blinks to the target point unleashing a murder of crows that flock wildly around him, dealing magic damage (AP scaling) per second to all enemy units in the area. The effect lasts for 5 seconds. While Crowstorm is active, Scarecrows inside the area do not take damage from being attacked.

No real issue here, save that Scarecrows not taking damage doesn't work well -- A: there's no reason to every attack them when Fiddlesticks is around, and B: he'd RATHER people attack them so he can trigger his fear more frequently.


Overall, I think the minor changes may be fine, but I really think the scarecrow mechanic, while interesting, just isn't working. It has a lot of awkward uses, weird disincentives, problematic timings, and general issue with Fiddles both having to set up his combat zone well in advance and ALSO not be seen. I think it really needs a revision, frankly.

Disulfiram2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=Zlu00jsb,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-02T16:46:05.435+0000)

E- Dark Wind

Not much has changed here, which is fine, although when you say it prioritizes enemies being drained you should say in what order -- as written it looks like it prioritizes enemies being drained and THEN those not hit yet, which makes it a very reliable damage effect. Is that intentional?

Isn't that how it works right now?

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that how it works right now?

Yes, but the question is the order. I believe the order NOW is "Not Hit Yet" > "Drain Target" > "Hit But Not Drain Target."

If it's changed to "Drain Target" > "Not Hit Yet" then it's a big DPS boost in a minion-save situation.

Disulfiram1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=Zlu00jsb,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-02-02T17:00:23.912+0000)

Yes, but the question is the order. I believe the order NOW is "Not Hit Yet" > "Drain Target" > "Hit But Not Drain Target."

If it's changed to "Drain Target" > "Not Hit Yet" then it's a big DPS boost in a minion-save situation.

Nope, sorry: currently the order is "Drain Target" > "Not Hit Yet" It is indeed powerful and reliable, and with summoner 14 and electrocute is also often the reason for an easy first blood in lane.

[sg-jinx]

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Nope, sorry: currently the order is "Drain Target" > "Not Hit Yet"

Really? Well I'll be damned. :)

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I kept the same prioritization on Drain intentionally (that's not to say I thought about it very hard; just didn't see a reason to stray that far off of what they put down).

Now that I've made some edits, though, I'd love to see your new opinion; I took off the second passive effect of fearing people that attack the scarecrows, and the new Q means he won't be swapping to Scarecrows during Q. That may not change your opinion, of course.

There are probably better ways to incorporate Scarecrows into the kit; if you have any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em. I think you're right that engagement around those is a little low. I think the new Q solves that a little bit, but perhaps not enough.

Overall, I'd agree with you that it feels like the sort of kit we'd hear about in a "Champion Insights: Fiddlesticks" breakdown after his real rework. You know, something like "we tried a mechanic where Fiddlesticks had these Scarecrow Sentries that he could put down, but it just made him really binary based on whether or not he could defend those effectively. We decided to go in a different direction, but we'd love to take another crack at a vision/control jungler again in the future based on what we learned in those tests."

ModThe Djinn4 votes

{quoted} ...the new Q means he won't be swapping to Scarecrows during Q. That may not change your opinion, of course.

I think it actually exacerbates the issue, honestly. In addition to feeling a little less like Fiddlesticks (Drain is pretty iconic) he also now is even MORE tied to the set-up idea.

There are probably better ways to incorporate Scarecrows into the kit; if you have any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em.

Right off the bat, I'd probably cut them entirely. I don't think there's a huge thematic gain in multiple scarecrows -- to me, Fiddlesticks himself is the terrifying one, and it's not because there are a ton of scarecrows and only one is alive.

With that in mind, here's a suggestion off the top of my head that collapses his roaming power into a current ability, letting you build a kit around it. It synergizes with his ultimate, retains some current functionality, and lets you build in the map presence you seem to want, letting Fiddlesticks terrify opponents, stalk their jungle, and vanish without a trace.

It's a quick design, so expect issues, but I think it captures the feeling you want and also may be a more solid core to build a kit around.

Dark Wings [E] Dark Wings has two range increments: Close, and Far. The Far range starts at 1500 and increases with level.

Close: Fiddlesticks launches a bouncing flock of crows at a target within range, dealing magic damage and silencing targets struck.

Far: If Fiddlesticks targets an area outside his close range, he instead sends a crow to mark the target location, granting vision in a small radius. Locations either last for X seconds, or can be removed by standing on them (subject to testing).

Once every 3 minutes (reduced by level, down to 1 minute) Fiddlesticks may cast his E at a marked location anywhere on the map to teleport there after a brief channel. Fiddlesticks bursts into a flock of crows, and reforms at the target location 1.5 seconds later. A global "Cawcawcaw" is played when this occurs.

Fiddlesticks may cast his R while channeling his E teleport. If he does, he arrives with his ult active.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I like that.

I went through an iteration last night in which I had R capable of teleporting at longer range to one of the scarecrows, so my first impression is that you're hitting a cool theme there.

I do have concerns about global teleports, generally. Recently, Rek'Sai had hers removed because it was so hard to balance that global presence for pro, in particular. But I think blinks of some sort are cool for Fiddles, in particular, because he has one in his kit already and generally has low mobility. It feels like it could work with the right mechanics around it.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}I do have concerns about global teleports, generally. Recently, Rek'Sai had hers removed because it was so hard to balance that global presence for pro, in particular.

I agree it's a concern, but, in an initial design pitch like that, I like to aim high and cull as necessary. You'll notice, specifically, the high initial timer, and the fact that it has multiple levers you can tweak. Namely:

  • Range of placement
  • Range of teleportation
  • Channel time
  • Arrival delay
  • Duration of placement
  • Fragility of placement
  • Placement cooldown (which can be separate from E cooldown, as the two are basically separate spells with the paradigm switched by distance).
  • Maximum number of placements

I think that, with all of those levers (and that's just off the top of my head), it's a highly tunable ability that hits the same core fantasy even if you strip a lot of the power out of it.

Also, Fiddles would need to be designed as more of a sustained damage dealer outside of his ult. He's not very sticky nor he is very bursty, so it's not as worrying to me as that same mobility on a strong, durable duelist who also provides powerful initiation and large-scale vision.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

That's a good point.

I wouldn't mind a Fiddles that is more bursty, though. I think he could keep his core fantasy while trending more into assassin territory. But with the current kit, I think you're right; he's a healthier champ to put global mobility on.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}I wouldn't mind a Fiddles that is more bursty, though. I think he could keep his core fantasy while trending more into assassin territory.

Nor would I, but I don't think having sustain, hard CC, burst damage, and a global presence is at ALL healthy, and I think the global presence fits his fantasy more than the burst. :P

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, perhaps so. If I come up with any other ideas, I'll let you know.

This might become a longer term project for me... I'll probably make another post if I end up doing a lot of changes, though.

Disulfiram3 votes

Shouldn't scarecrows replace Q? Imho there's no reason to move Drain from W to Q...

Anyway, great concept, love it!

ModKnightsKemplar8 votes

I've always felt weird about Drain on W...

But yeah. Obviously, if Riot commented on this and were like "we're gonna implement all of this, except we're gonna keep Drain on W," I would say "cool beans."

HalcyonDweller3 votes

{quoted}

Passive- Terrify After being unseen for at least 3 seconds, Fiddlesticks' next damaging ability fears enemy champions damaged by that ability for (.5/1/1.5, scales with R rank) seconds.

I like the passive, but going off of what The Djinn said I think it needs some way to limit it a little bit more. What do you think of something like this?

Passive: "Fiddlesticks can impersonate a scarecrow if he stands still for X duration. Upon being revealed to the enemy team, any scarecrow will fear all nearby enemies for Y duration. If enemies 'kill' the scarecrow that fiddlesticks is impersonating, it will fear all nearby enemies again as he becomes visible in its place. Fiddlesticks can also fear enemies in this manner if he manages to ult from the fog of war."

Q- Soul Reap Fiddlesticks summons a spectral scythe in a cone towards the cursor to reap the souls of his enemies. Fiddlesticks deals magic damage (AP scaling) to enemies hit and recovers health for every enemy champion hit (scales with lvl and maybe AP). If Fiddlesticks successfully hits an enemy with this ability, 50% of the cooldown is refunded.

Scarecrows also summon their own scythes directed at the cursor, but these scythes do not damage minions or monsters, only enemy champions (do not refund cooldown)

This seems pretty cool to me. Definitely a better way to implement his drain. And being able to cast Soul Reap from scarecrows is cool and all but I am not sure it suits his theme (at least how I perceive his theme). This is because I'm a little concerned that this is going to encourage him to place scarecrows while in combat, rather than having them placed around the map for enemies to discover. IMO it becomes less of a scary scare-crow thematic then and instead leans towards a minion-mancer thematic.

W- Scarecrow Fiddlesticks erects an inanimate replica of himself after channeling on a location within 200 units for 2 seconds. He may place (1/2/3/4/5) scarecrows that each have 3 health (similar to ward health, autos only), are fully visible to enemies, and reveal a small patch of vision around them (less than wards; similar to Teemo shroom range?).

If Fiddlesticks remains motionless for 3 seconds, he can cast W on a Scarecrow within 3000 range to switch places with it.

This seems pretty strong, but I like it a lot. I can think of a lot of different ways it could be useful, and it adds a lot of interesting gameplay. I think there should be some sort of cooldown on his ability to switch places with them, or perhaps instead of switching places he must possess them like a spirit - this would ensure that he couldn't pull too many free shenanigans by teleporting back and forth between places multiple times.

I also can't help but think that we could tailor how it works to affect the opponent's perspective / experience a little more. Possibly by adding the stuff I suggested with the passive, or possibly by adding another vision mechanic such as they disable (but do not reveal) enemy wards within X range.

All of this is just some food for thought, and I won't be offended if you decide you don't like these suggestions.

E- Dark Wind Unleashes a Crow at the targeted enemy, dealing magic damage (AP scaling) before bouncing to another target. Dark Wind can strike up to 6 times and will prioritize enemies it has not yet hit. Crows can bounce off Scarecrows. Deals 150% damage to minions and monsters.

R- Crowstorm Fiddlesticks channels for 1.5 seconds, then blinks to the target point unleashing a murder of crows that flock wildly around him, dealing magic damage (AP scaling) per second to all enemy units in the area. The effect lasts for 5 seconds. While Crowstorm is active, Scarecrows inside the area do not take damage from being attacked.

I see that Dark Wind and Crowstorm stayed mostly the same, and that seems fine to me, they both were pretty cool and unique already. I'm somewhat concerned about having Crowstorm protect scarecrows, for the reasons I outlined in my response to Soul Reap above.

I have small concerns about a couple of the changes suggested by your concept, but overall I really like it! With your changes to the kit this has made Fiddlesticks a really cohesive champion again :) Great design! +1

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Thanks! Yeah, valid concerns. The 2 second channel is to discourage the ability to place them while in combat, which I think is important.

Might also be important to specify that enemies can't take damage from multiple Qs at once. That would also prevent too much burst (I think).

As for the passive, I tried implementing something where he can impersonate Scarecrows, but I just can't get it to work in a way that I think would actually be useable in game. Capitalizing on opportunities with that would require him to hide in bushes and wait for long periods of time, and I just don't think that's going to fly with the current speed of the game. It's a cool idea, and one I would love to see, but I think is has to be something more than standing in place and waiting somehow. Which, it seems to me, is kind of the whole idea.

I'm not under any delusion that this would pass muster, but I'd like to believe it's a kit that could be taken into preliminary testing. After all, Riot doesn't come up with a kit on paper in a few hours and then bring it to live :P That would be nuts.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks! Yeah, valid concerns. The 2 second channel is to discourage the ability to place them while in combat, which I think is important.

Oh I see :O I can't believe I missed that part... Sorry about that!

Might also be important to specify that enemies can't take damage from multiple Qs at once. That would also prevent too much burst (I think).

That would certainly help. If you do that but you still want to reward clever use of the scarecrows you could always allow him to heal even if they don't deal damage, I haven't put too much thought into balancing with regards to that, it was just a spur of the moment thought.

As for the passive, I tried implementing something where he can impersonate Scarecrows, but I just can't get it to work in a way that I think would actually be useable in game. Capitalizing on opportunities with that would require him to hide in bushes and wait for long periods of time, and I just don't think that's going to fly with the current speed of the game. It's a cool idea, and one I would love to see, but I think is has to be something more than standing in place and waiting somehow. Which, it seems to me, is kind of the whole idea.

I see what you mean about game pacing and standing still. Considering that, I think that it should work so that he can teleport to and possess the scarecrows rather than swap places with them. This way it is a one-way trip, rather than something he can invert shortly afterwards. He could still use it to hunt people and to roam, this would just limit it a little bit.

This is also why I suggested the change where the scarecrows themselves fear enemies when they are revealed. Ideally I would want to see Fiddlesticks be able to see an opportunity to take the scarecrow's place and teleport to it before the enemy can kill it. You might also want to give the scarecrows more health later in the game to require more attacks to get rid of.

Other questions regarding scarecrows, how would you feel about them denying vision within any brush they are in? I feel like that would offer another interesting way to make use of them strategically speaking.

I'm not under any delusion that this would pass muster, but I'd like to believe it's a kit that could be taken into preliminary testing. After all, Riot doesn't come up with a kit on paper in a few hours and then bring it to live :P That would be nuts.

Oh no! I wasn't trying to make you think it wasn't good enough somehow, this concept is great already! I'm just trying to share my thoughts with you so we can find what you think is the best version of Fiddlesticks!

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, those are good ideas. I think if Scarecrows are going to limit enemy vision, though, 5 is probably way too many. There may be a way to balance that to make it work, though.

I'll keep ruminating on the standing still deal. Teleporting to and replacing Scarecrows is probably a necessary change, but I still can't think of a "disguise" mechanic that doesn't have weird interactions with point n' click abilities. At least, not with this version of scarecrows. They would need a different "clear" condition, I suspect, if you were going to allow Fiddles to share visuals with them.

You and Djinn have motivated me to keep thinking. Might post an updated version later if I get any great inspiration about it. As it stands, it has generated some good discussion and I'm glad I did it. If any Rioters happen across it, maybe they'll use this as material about people's general expectations/impressions of Fiddle's current state and what parts of his theme they find compelling.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, those are good ideas. I think if Scarecrows are going to limit enemy vision, though, 5 is probably way too many. There may be a way to balance that to make it work, though.

With regards to preventing vision, it might work if it only blocks for that specific bush, maybe if the enemy has a ward in that bush they could still see everything surrounding the bush, just not what is within the brush. My thinking here is that it gives that sense of dread knowing something is there but not knowing if it is or isn't fiddlesticks.

I'll keep ruminating on the standing still deal. Teleporting to and replacing Scarecrows is probably a necessary change, but I still can't think of a "disguise" mechanic that doesn't have weird interactions with point n' click abilities. At least, not with this version of scarecrows. They would need a different "clear" condition, I suspect, if you were going to allow Fiddles to share visuals with them.

It might work with a replacement mechanic. Like he goes untargetable and possesses the scarecrow for as long as he remains in it. That way enemies only interact with the scarecrow and he becomes targetable when the scarecrow is destroyed or when he right clicks or casts an ability.

You and Djinn have motivated me to keep thinking. Might post an updated version later if I get any great inspiration about it. As it stands, it has generated some good discussion and I'm glad I did it. If any Rioters happen across it, maybe they'll use this as material about people's general expectations/impressions of Fiddle's current state and what parts of his theme they find compelling.

Awesome, I'm really grateful that you made this post and it was really enjoyable to see all the discussions sparked by it! Let me know if you want to discuss my own suggestions any further, otherwise I'll wait to see any further updates you might make based on your ruminations. And I agree, I hope that Riot sees this thread when they are looking for a direction to take with Fiddlesticks.

FlameHalbrdOkido3 votes

U forgot the most important part!

If Fiddle stands still for × sec it turns into a scare crow

Someone else had the idea that crows could land on scarecrow overtime and that would increase the number of bounces

Wert the Wacky3 votes

As a Fiddle fan, I love this so much. The ability to travel between scarecrows is just amazing. I do think it would be interesting though, if the enemy team didn’t know if a scarecrow was actually you or not until hitting it, it would make some really interesting plays where you could go still if you knew an enemy was nearby and wait for them to get close before attacking.

Eranell3 votes

I really, REALLY like the Scarecrow ability. But I have some suggestions if you allow. First of all I would shift the actual placement of the Scarecrows to his passive as well as shift the fears around a bit and it would look a bit like this: Passive - Cursed Cornfield Whenever Fiddlesticks enters a bush and remains inside it for at least 1.5 seconds he summons a Scarecrow Replica of himself inside the bush which grants vision. When an enemy enters a bush which he has no vision of with a Scarecrow inside it this enemy is scared for 1 second and his magic resist is lowered for 4 seconds. The passives cooldown (placing the Scarecrows), amount of Scarecrows as well as the Scarecrows duration improves with Fiddlesticks lvl. His Q and E are fine in my opinion but depending on the actual effectiveness of the abilities when it comes to farming his jungle I'd suggest for his Q's heal to also work on large/epic monsters as well as giving his Dark Wind the ability to bounce off of himself aswell to increase his damage against single target enemies since as of your version he seems to take an eternity against single targets. But of course this all depends on his ratios/base damages. Also I would think about giving his scarecrows the options to be actual traps like this: If Fiddlesticks casts Dark Wind directly onto a Scarecrow this Scarecrow sends out the Dark Wind when an enemy steps close enough to it/gets Feared by it. The place swapping of his W could use some fine tuning (like increasing the range with the abilities rank and also giving it a relatively high cooldown) but the general idea is interesting. Furthermore I would think about making the swap instantly under the circumstance that you are #1 in range AND #2 an enemy just got scared by the Scarecrow. Lastly his ult. I'd let it stand where it is with maybe one addition. If enemies are hit by Crowstorms first tick of damage they are feared for 1.5 seconds. That would be my suggestions.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Ooh... I really like that idea of putting crows on the Scarecrows. That feels really ominous and I agree that it would give them a more natural "trap" feel. Really digging it.

I appreciate all the feedback, but that idea resonated with me especially hard.

The Goodest Boy3 votes

I love all of this dude! It doesn't have anything overly broken or obnoxious, and it sounds just like I'd imagine a better Fiddlesticks.

The W mechanic is actually cool as shit and very original. I like the concept of leaving a scarecrow at the enemy blue bush, and then while you're taking your own blue, you see them doing theirs. So you stand still for 3 seconds, gain the fear passive, teleport to the scarecrow near the enemy and use R from the bush.

Your design isn't super complicated, but allows for a lot of skill expression. Excellent work all around.

Only possible suggestion may be making the E a skillshot and giving it some extra oomph. (A silence, or maybe a MR shred as fiddle has no max health damage or anything)

Great work!

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Only possible suggestion may be making the E a skillshot and giving it some extra oomph. (A fear, or maybe a MR shred as fiddle has no max health damage or anything)

I honestly didn't even consider that, and it's a heck of an idea. Glad you liked it!

The Goodest Boy1 votes

I loved it! Also, I meant (give the E a *silence or MR shred or something else.) Typo!

Have a nice night.

Ifneth3 votes

Just changing his passive to leaving behind a Scarecrow if he stands still would be enough.

Passive: Scarecrow. If Fiddlesticks stands still for two seconds, then he will become a Scarecrow. Moving afterward will leave one where he stood. Scarecrows disappear after sixty seconds or when Fiddlesticks clicks on them. Ninety second cooldown, refunded if Fiddlesticks removes his Scarecrow.

The mind-games would have layers of fear. On the micro level, seeing a Scarecrow in the jungle would stop anyone cold, and seeing one when face-checking a bush would make them run. Fiddlesticks has a point-and-click silence, forcing mobile opponents to use their mobility to escape if they find themselves in range, and forcing immobile opponents to Flash.

But on the macro level, the fear really begins: Fiddlesticks could leave a Scarecrow in one side of the jungle and invade or take an objective on the other, knowing that the enemy jungler is away. Or, he could leave it behind when invading to distract the enemy jungler while he recalls. He could even leave it on one side of the jungle to force the enemy jungler to check his own camps. The possibilities would be endless.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

That's a good thought. Might be nice to take a little power of of them; one of the things I was thinking about with the current kit was how much power was tied up in those, while the fear passive is still pretty strong. You're right; might be better to swap em

50000000000000002 votes

Firstly, I'd swap Q and W, just to keep Drain in the same spell slot.

I think automatically swapping places is a bad mechanic. Fiddlesticks should be able to choose whether to teleport. Continuing the channel is an interesting concept, though. But at the same time I think Drain should probably change eventually, since it's just not a reliable way to DPS.

I would consider a two-part passive, or moving the passive to Scarecrow. The current passive is very helpful to better position after W or R, and Scarecrow doesn't really provide any in-combat mobility to compensate.

I think 3 second of being motionless to move 3000 units (even though these are approximate) will likely promote safe placement of the scarecrows to rotate around the map faster, rather than using it as a surprise ganking tool. Especially since Fiddlesticks is primarily a jungler, this spell would likely be used for faster movement around the jungle. I definitely love the idea of swapping place with the pre-placed scarecrows, but I don't think this is the right way.

Another note is to consider making the other scarecrows appear like Fiddlesticks in its channel animation, so that the enemies will have to decide whether to kill it or avoid it, if they don't have vision of Fiddlesticks. This could add some serious visual clutter to the minimap though, since it'll be a long lasting clone that could be anywhere on the map.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

The auto-swap is a bold move, I agree. And after thinking about it some more, I think I can do better. What do you think of this?


Q- Soul Reap Fiddlesticks summons a spectral scythe in a cone towards the cursor to reap the souls of his enemies. Fiddlesticks deals magic damage (AP scaling) to enemies hit and recovers health for every enemy champion hit (scales with lvl and maybe AP).

Scarecrows also summon their own scythes directed at the cursor, but these scythes do not damage minions or monsters, only enemy champions.


I imagine this skill on a low cooldown; the idea is similar to drain, but it allows for a couple of things that I like. First, it adds that "grim reaper" vibe that Fiddlesticks has always been lacking imo. If you're gonna hold a scythe, use it for something, you know? Second, this allows Fiddlesticks to chase opponents, which I think is really important for maximum spooky. I was trying to do that with the Q version I have posted now, but I like this one better; what do you think?

As to your second and third points, I kind of like the lack of mobility on Fiddlesticks. If you think he really needs something extra, I think the better option would be to add a slow on Dark Wind to allow him a way to catch people (even if he doesn't have the fear up, he can still slow people with it and catch them for some scythe action).

If the Scarecrows become too aggressive, I think they both compromise the theme and become OP. They should mainly be used as a way to claim territory and a small amount of vision; if they're being used regularly to teleport behind people for ganks, I think it's a failed concept. He needs some counterplay, and I don't see how swapping behind laners without warning is going to allow for a balanced experience.

The whole idea of scarecrows is that they can only be in locations where Fiddlesticks himself could have been; I think the range of that placement should be short and perhaps even require a short channel to avoid abuse cases. Most of his offensive power should be in his other skills, imo.

Edit: I like it. I'm putting it in. :P

50000000000000001 votes

I like Soul Reap for sure. Did you mean to add a slow to that, or just the passive fear? I think the scarecrows should probably not do damage, or at least do reduced damage, but I think the current setup is also fine. Can't really tell without playtesting.

I agree, in combat mobility is important because he lacks CC. I think adding CC is the better way to go. Maybe the range of teleport should scale with level or rank? So early on, you can put it in a bush and hide behind a wall, so that you can surprise them when they try to clear (which seems like the intended purpose), but can't use it to significantly improve the out of combat mobility, which indirectly improves clear speed as well. Later on, I think it'd be okay to use it as a semiglobal teleport similar to Nocturne or Galio. It could also have a fairly long cooldown, so that it can't be used multiple times quickly to cover long distances.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Ooh, that's a really good idea, too. I could totally see that working in the long run.

I dunno how I feel about the slow on soul reap... Especially if he's casting it every 4-5 seconds, it wouldn't be cool to have more than a minor slow. I was thinking of putting it on Dark Wind in place of the silence, specifically because that spell might be a little underwhelming without it, but also because that adds more interesting use cases.

If the slow is on Q, it's still a "use any time you can hit with it" spell. If you put it on E, you might generate a higher skill ceiling for the champ based on how people learn to optimize the timing of using a longer CD spell.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

So, Kemp -- riddle me this. How complete a breakdown do you want? 'cause there's some really cool stuff here, and also some real room for improvements, but I like to ask how blunt I should be before diving into a critique. :D

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I'm incorporating some good stuff right now (I just posted a potentially change to drain that you're welcome to weigh in on) and I'm thinking I might edit that passive a bit if I do end up swapping in that Q change.

Like I said, I welcome harshness. I don't have any personal feelings attached to it, so fire away.

LuaDotExe2 votes

I like this a lot, and the fact that he can switch to other scarecrows gives way to interesting new lore changes, since that needs a reboot as well. Passive is kinda... uninteresting to me, although it works, and does fit into his gameplay pattern. It just kind of feels weird that he walks in and suddenly has a free fear.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Really fair point about the fear. It's possible that giving some kind of indicator so that there's an opportunity to avoid actually getting feared would both make the kit feel more healthy and open up some more power for elsewhere in the kit. I don't, off the top of my head, have great ideas for that, but thanks for the feedback!

BestJhinUniverse1 votes

Passive sounds terrible. W sounds equally as terrible depending on the cast range.

Disulfiram3 votes

That passive change is literally removing his point-and-click Fear. If he catches you unaware, it would be the same as it is now: you get Ulted, Feared, and Drained. If instead you catch him, then with this change he wouldn't be able to Fear you (after the first time) and try to get away. Also, these changes would mean that he'd lose all of his peeling potential.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Just updated that passive; would fearing multiple targets change your mind about it? :P

If not, what do you think would improve it? The newer version of Q I just added also makes the scarecrows more dangerous, if that helps. They aren't intended to be a huge offensive tool, though.

rtbf2216514121 votes

I like his original Q and E. His W can go. Idk about R.

Teridax681 votes

A lot of Fiddle's thematics are there, and I think the scarecrow mechanic has a lot of potential (it makes sense for a scarecrow-like character to confuse enemies with actual scarecrows), but I also feel some elements are missing, namely his emphasis on standing still in the middle of combat, and the power that could afford him. Similarly, I take issue with his passive, in that it's thematically excellent (Fiddle should definitely fear enemies who don't see him), but potentially unhealthy in the way it's implemented (if Fiddle just goes into a bush to refill his passive, then waddles over to lane and continues playing normally, that's not really thematic or interesting). Here are some of my criticisms re: each ability:

  • I definitely think Fiddle should still be able to terrify enemies, but as mentioned above, I'm not sure if this is the best exact implementation of it. For sure, Fiddle should strike fear when enemies are made aware of his presence, but I don't think it necessarily needs to tie to lack of vision: if Fiddle's abilities feared enemies after he became immobile for a certain period of time, it could play much more into his scarecrow theme, potentially allow both more synergy and more power to be afforded to him, and also give him more counterplay by preventing from moving and significantly affecting enemies at the same time. Generally, I think Fiddle should be exceptionally strong when not moving at all, and exceptionally weak when walking around, and that should be the basis of his counterplay.
  • Soul Reap gives Fiddle damage and self-healing, but as with his innate, the implementation doesn't feel as unique as it could be. I think there's value in Fiddle's main damage and sustain coming from a continuous channel, and I'd work on that instead. For example, instead of a cone scythe, you could have Fiddle channel to project a movable cloud of scythes or crows that would continuously drain health in the area. I would also move away from letting Fiddle project abilities from his scarecrows, because I think the gameplay to his scarecrows should be that they should be harmless if they're fakes, but otherwise really scary if it's actually Fiddle himself.
  • Scarecrow is a phenomenal idea, and I think Fiddle being able to cast decoys across the map and mystify enemies as to where his real self is could be both thematically appropriate and interesting for everyone involved. My only recommendation here is that, if this isn't the case already, I think the scarecrows should display a fake health bar corresponding to Fiddle's at the time they were cast, even if they collapse in a few hits (and not just autos, as that would otherwise break the illusion).
  • Dark Wind isn't changed much, but I don't think that's the best thing, since the ability as it currently exists is already not very interesting. Again, I think there's plenty of opportunity to give Fiddle huge amounts of AoE power as long as he remains still, and his E should similarly capitalize on this. As with his Q, I don't think there really needs to be scarecrow synergy here either, as I don't think Fiddle should really be using decoys in-combat, so much as out of combat to scare and confuse his opponents.
  • Crowstorm is completely unchanged, and I think that's fine. I'd again not go for in-combat scarecrow synergy here, but otherwise nothing to really criticize.

I think there are plenty of good intentions in the above kit, and the suggested scarecrow mechanic looks brilliant, but I also think the implementation of a lot of Fiddle's abilities could be refined, in particular when it comes to his damage output via basic abilities. To me, the fantasy behind Fiddle is that he looks like a harmless, immobile scarecrow, but can actually wreak havoc through entire crowds of enemies as he stands still. Because of this, I think the core of his gameplay should be to rely on his opponents' uncertainty and his own immobility to strike fear, and deal unparalleled persistent AoE damage, while also playing this constant game of chicken where he loses if he bails out and starts moving too soon.

Slowbob3211 votes

Idk if I want fiddles to be re-worked... He was my first main back in the good old days. I luv the man to bits but his kit isn't really fun to play with (I lie, it's pretty damn fun to play with). I've got the surprise party fiddles skin sooo. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

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