Thoughts Regarding Ahri's Kit (since Riot might be reworking her in the near-ish future)

HalcyonDweller·2/15/2018, 12:32:33 AM·4 votes·1,057 views

Introduction: This is not a redesign, it is a discussion.

Ahri's kit was designed back in a time when Riot was still pumping out champions at a rather fast pace. And while she is thematically strong, her gameplay is seen by some as lacking in some ways. As such I would like to discuss with you a variety of ideas for making her kit more cohesive and potentially better overall. Some of the ideas go together but many of them are standalone. It is not a true rework, but rather a discussion about each part of her kit. Feel free to respond to some, none or all of the ideas in the comments section.

I'm interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts, and I want to find some sort of common ground between everyone who has a stake in Ahri and her potential future rework. As someone who used to main her and who still plays her occasionally, I remember how fun she can be to play, and I want the best possible outcome for everyone from whatever changes Riot decides to make to the champion.

Passive: Essence Thief

This passive already has the makings of a really cool mechanic, however I believe that it works backwards - thematically speaking. For two reasons:

  1. because she is gaining stacks for herself instead of placing stacks on enemies.

  2. because when she 'drains life essence,' it rewards hitting as many enemies as possible rather than a single victim.

If her theme is supposed to be tempting people and then eating their soul then I think that this passive should really be something that stacks on individual enemies rather than on Ahri herself. And when it triggers I think that it shouldn't work on all enemies struck by her ability, but rather just on enemies - or a single enemy - whom she has placed a sufficient amount of stacks on.

It could add a stack whenever she affects an enemy with one of her abilities, and if she has enough stacks on that enemy then she should get a chance to do something cool like charm the enemy or consume their life essence for some healing, or gain a cool effect on her next ability against them. 9 stacks may prove to be too difficult with this change in effect, so the cap required to trigger the effect could be lowered if necessary.

A completely different idea for her passive (if it were to be replaced with something else entirely) is that it could allow her to mark a target, and doing so could allow her abilities (or maybe just her first ability) against the target to have (an) additional effect(s). It could be a choice by the player or it could be made to affect just the nearest enemy to Ahri.

And lastly, her passive could involve Fox Fires. But more on this later.

Q: Orb of Deception

This ability is already relatively cool, given it's function. You get to deal more damage if you land both parts of it, and you have to aim the second part of it by positioning carefully. New Swain's E works kind of like this, and it's a cool means of skill expression. This is something I would not change about the ability.

For the most part I would leave this ability unchanged. There is some debate over whether she should keep or lose the movement speed that the ability grants her. My only thoughts regarding this is that if the movement speed is kept, it should be changed so that the ability is more particular about when or even if she is granted movement speed by it. Perhaps it should reward her for hitting enemies, or it should only work when moving in a particular way. I don't really mind one way or the other about it though and I'm open to hearing other peoples ideas both for and against the movement speed on her existing Q.

W: Fox Fire

This ability has potential, but as it stands it's kind of lackluster. It is controlled by AI and it has a short range, making it feel very clunky and not very skill expressive to use. It is thematically pretty cool though, and the animation is also kind of cool, but it also already happens automatically when she casts her ultimate.

I've got a few different ideas for how it could be changed, but I'm not overly attached to them. They struck me as interesting, and I'd like to see your own thoughts about them as well. I'd like to know whether you like the proposals or not, and how you might tweak them in order to make them work well in your own opinion.

  1. What if this ability (and it's effect that occurs on her ultimate too) were moved to her passive (and tuned appropriately of course) so that she gained 3 fox-fires whenever she casts an ability? This could be expanded upon in any number of ways, including:
  • working when she lands an ability on an enemy, and then going on cooldown for some amount of time so that other abilities would not trigger it repeatedly. Her ultimate could perhaps ignore this cooldown and be allowed to generate fox-fires on each cast regardless of what the cooldown is.
  • grant some boon (like triggering essence thief healing or charming the target) upon using them effectively (such as hitting the same enemy with all three of them).
  • having fox-fires not deal damage, but instead grant her abilities cool effects when they hit enemies who have been struck by one or all 3 of the fox-fires.
  1. Combining the fox-fires with her Charm by making it so that enemies who are hit by all 3 fox-fires become charmed for a short duration.

  2. Giving her back the damage boost that she got on her charm, but only against targets who have been hit by 3 fox-fires (could potentially be made to work with her ultimate as well).

Both of the first two proposals would free up her W ability slot, so a new ability would be needed. I have no thoughts or opinion on what would go in that place, but if you have a favorite idea (or several ideas) please feel free to share them in the comments.

E: Charm

Ahri's Charm is a successful ability. Design-wise it is thematically appropriate, and Ahri players have multiple ways to use it - it can be used to pick an out-of-position enemy, or it could be used to defensively charm a diver or assassin who catches her, and it works great when chaining cc on an enemy who has already been picked by an ally. It does seem to fit fairly decently with her play pattern as well - helping her to land Q's or bring an enemy closer for her Fox Fires to hit.

But I can't help but look at Riot's recent reworks and new champions and think that this ability could be way cooler, and both more skill expressive and more interactive for opponents besides just a skillshot to dodge. I'm not sure exactly what I would want from an update to it, but if Riot does change it I hope that they implement some of their newer design techniques to provide a rewarding charm ability that also still has counter-play for her opponents. Maybe it could be made to work better if it interacted with Fox-Fires somehow. What do you think?

R: Spirit Rush

This ability is super iconic and really fun to use, and the animation for it is really great... but it has a bit of a problem because of how it gives her a lot of safety when she has it available. That said I really like her ultimate and I hope that Riot preserves the repeated dashes in some form or another. I do think that forcing her to use it defensively is good enough counterplay because then she can't use it to make plays, and perhaps she just needs more agency (along with counterplay of course) in the rest of her kit rather than have her ultimate changed too much.

Conclusion:

That's it for my thoughts as of now, please feel free to provide feedback or tweaks to the ideas presented above, and please feel free to share your own thoughts regarding Ahri and her potential rework. Discuss in the comments.

31 Comments

zero3562/16/2018, 12:43:58 AM2 votes

One, as far as I know, Ahri is way down on the list of potential reworks. Even then, I think she's more due for Xin Zhao and Shyv level mini-reworks, looking just at a few parts of her kit.

W needs changes, though I think it should just be a complete change and not a let's lump this in with something else.

For her passive, I personally like the healing; means I can be a bit cheekier in lane because I know I have a heal coming. As it were, making her passive something like the Pox Arcana from Black Market Brawlers (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Market_Brawlers) I think would be great. It could give back health or mana or both. Health is what the passive currently does. I suggest mana as well because as it stands, Ahri generally cannot spam her abilities as much as other mages and it's rather annoying. Personally, I would prefer mana nerfs to all the other mages, but since I doubt Rito's going to go for that, giving Ahri some mana help would be nice.

Or you could throw this in with her new W as a passive (or active, since Pox Arcana passively built stacks but was manually activated)

Q,E, and R are all pretty fine as it stands. Maybe some tweaks, especially dependent on any W changes, but overall pretty solid.

Cosmic Star2/16/2018, 7:14:17 PM2 votes

Hello there, really appreciate your post here, enjoyed a lot to read it.

First I want to mention this: --Riot's need's to either turn Ahri into a Mage or an Assassin, not both at the same time being a week mage in comparison with Lux, a burst mage or any other (cc-burst potential-poke). But she is also one of the weakest assassins and only successfully fulfills this role either if she get's fed/ahead by a big advantage or when the game reaches late game (Close/Full Build).

 Riot doesn't really knows if she is assassin but they keep her on the Blood Moon rotating game-mode. And it sucks, if you get fed yes it's cool but most of the times you will end up really poorly in comparison with the other assassins that do it much more efficiently. 

 Either they increase her cooldowns but increase her damage or decrease the cooldowns and lower damage, it's not really fun to play her in comparison with her old assassin style pre-rework. Most of the older Ahri players call her pre-rework the ''gold Ahri'' or something like that cause back then (yes she was OP and needed nerfs) she was actually fun in assassinations.

Now to her Kit discussion:

PASSIVE

 Indeed needs some work, the healing as you said needs a different trigger effect. 

I would propose, as you said, stacking on enemies, (Champions only) and maybe, if killing a minion with her abilities would also trigger a passive, (it would also trigger a cooldown so it if you killed a hole wave with a Q it would heal only as if it would only kill a minion preventing abusive sustain I would say). Thematically makes more sense, someone that dies near her makes it possible for her to suck their essence granting her flashbacks of memory and healing her.

ORB OF DECEPTION

 Everything's fine but the MS. I don't like the fact people spam it behind her to maker her faster, it's just somewhat stupid. 

I would suggest granting her MS if:

  1. Hits enemies with the 1º or 2º part only - minor boost of MS - Would trigger half of the CD of this boost;
  2. Hitting enemies with the hole Q would trigger a bigger MS boost -- Would trigger all of the CD of this boost;
  3. Hitting none would not grant her either no MS or a really small boost -- Would not trigger the CD of this boost.

The reason why I want a cooldown on her MS boost is because I want it to be somewhat meaningful and not just something that comes with the use of it as a minor bonus that people don't really see/care.

**** FOX FIRE****

Needs changes, it's really not healthy to see people one-shoting enemies with R + W, it's boring, doesn't show much skill expression, it's not really possible to counter.

I would either move this ability to her R (instead of her 3 shots for each ultimate used, it would have a cooler animation and somewhat more meaningful way to show where the damage comes from). I don't really want another ability to trade for this but I would give it a charge system maybe (Kassadins E also has a different way to charge it), I am not sure how, but I would like to give it different triggers / charge systems to make it more intuitive to use and more reliable instead of a useless ability that will just add damage to your combo by clicking one time every 5 seconds. Recommend to make it work especially good with her passive, more on this ahead.

CHARM

Good ability yet can be further upgraded, suggestions:

Working with her passive.

Her passive with her stacking new system would, let's say, stack till 9 on the enemy. When this reaches the limit (9 charges on the enemy) you could try to land her the Q-W-E for different boosts, Q ----» Instant MS boost and maybe some mana refund; W ----» Grant +Damage -Cooldown +Bonus Damage on the next abilty; E ----» Grant +CC Duration +Damage (not as much as the W buff) and maybe - Mana cost on the next ability or mana refund.

(sounds kinda OP but only testing we would see)

  1. This would actually give her combo more meaning and skill expression;
  2. Visually when the enemy is at the full 9 charges it could have some indicator above their health bar and a pre-cooldown so the enemy could prepare himself to give them time for the counter play (something akin to Evelyn's Charm cooldown after activation on the target).

SPIRIT RUSH

Don't think it actually needs major tweaks besides numbers, it's a fun ability, maybe only having a easier animation on the shots she fires since it was confusing to me the first times I played her.

I will appreciate any comments on this!

Note: I know there are lot's of champions that need reworks far more then her but this is just for discussion point of view!!

[sg-ahri-2]

LunaGalaxy142/15/2018, 3:42:38 AM1 votes

The reason why her R gives so much dash in one go is that it pushes her to use it for catching people and it's way more iconic; than, say, the ammo system it used to be like before her ultimate got changed to fit an assassin playstyle.

With that said, it seems fine enough on its own unless she undergoes a drastic playstyle change, which she doesn't need as Ahri's direction seems to be targeted towards the assassin clique due to thematic sense and how Riot have been basing Ahri's patches on.

If Riot or anyone is thinking of discussing her, the assassin/burst clique she holds should be accounted for. I have more thoughts on her, but that is what I will have to say for now.

ValyrianBlade2/15/2018, 5:19:20 PM1 votes

I really think ahri only has 3 spots where I'd be happy to see change.

  1. Her passive. I could care less about it. Change how it heals, give it a damage component, whatever. Any change here is welcome.

  2. MS on her Q: make it conditional, make it scale with level, or do no change, i don't think this is a fundamental part of her kit.

  3. Her W: make it a 3-part skillshot, or give her a whole new damaging ability. This ability is really boring and I'm even less attached to it than her passive.

Otherwise though: I'd absolutely hate to see any change to the offensive portion of her Q, or any change to E or R (obviously other than necessary numerical changes, to cooldown/damage/missile speed/possibly range). Her charm is one of the healthiest cc skillshots in the game, being much more difficult to land than similar duration abilities (if she doesn't use R to set it up) and much less rewarding than similarly difficult to land abilities (Morgana Q, etc...). It's healthy, and not underpowered, because she does have the tools to land it, via burning her ultimate before trying (i.e. you can punish her if you outplay and dodge, versus not really having any real advantage on a Syndra who misses her stun and doesn't have to burn ult until after she hits you). Likewise R having 3 dashes is iconic and necessary for ahri, 1 for the engage, 1 for damage, 1 to escape.

I think a simple change to reduce get healing on passive and compensate with damage, or change w to a skillshot with more damage potential (especially after a charm), would be enough to make ahri on par with newer champions. The rest of her kit has aged extremely well.

Ifneth2/17/2018, 3:02:37 PM1 votes

I like these ideas! What if we made these changes?

P - Essence Theft Spell hits and takedowns empower the next ability Ahri casts.

Q - Orb of Deception Movement speed only applies toward enemy champions hit. Empowered: Ahri gains flat movement speed.

W - Fox Fire Empowered: Heals Ahri for the damage dealt.

E - Charm Empowered: Cooldown reset.

R - Spirit Rush Ahri dashes once. Empowered: Ahri gains three dashes.

She would have higher highs from the healing and charm reset and lower lows from missing her abilities.