Thoughts Regarding Ahri's Kit (since Riot might be reworking her in the near-ish future)

HalcyonDweller··4 votes·1,057 views

Introduction: This is not a redesign, it is a discussion.

Ahri's kit was designed back in a time when Riot was still pumping out champions at a rather fast pace. And while she is thematically strong, her gameplay is seen by some as lacking in some ways. As such I would like to discuss with you a variety of ideas for making her kit more cohesive and potentially better overall. Some of the ideas go together but many of them are standalone. It is not a true rework, but rather a discussion about each part of her kit. Feel free to respond to some, none or all of the ideas in the comments section.

I'm interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts, and I want to find some sort of common ground between everyone who has a stake in Ahri and her potential future rework. As someone who used to main her and who still plays her occasionally, I remember how fun she can be to play, and I want the best possible outcome for everyone from whatever changes Riot decides to make to the champion.

Passive: Essence Thief

This passive already has the makings of a really cool mechanic, however I believe that it works backwards - thematically speaking. For two reasons:

  1. because she is gaining stacks for herself instead of placing stacks on enemies.

  2. because when she 'drains life essence,' it rewards hitting as many enemies as possible rather than a single victim.

If her theme is supposed to be tempting people and then eating their soul then I think that this passive should really be something that stacks on individual enemies rather than on Ahri herself. And when it triggers I think that it shouldn't work on all enemies struck by her ability, but rather just on enemies - or a single enemy - whom she has placed a sufficient amount of stacks on.

It could add a stack whenever she affects an enemy with one of her abilities, and if she has enough stacks on that enemy then she should get a chance to do something cool like charm the enemy or consume their life essence for some healing, or gain a cool effect on her next ability against them. 9 stacks may prove to be too difficult with this change in effect, so the cap required to trigger the effect could be lowered if necessary.

A completely different idea for her passive (if it were to be replaced with something else entirely) is that it could allow her to mark a target, and doing so could allow her abilities (or maybe just her first ability) against the target to have (an) additional effect(s). It could be a choice by the player or it could be made to affect just the nearest enemy to Ahri.

And lastly, her passive could involve Fox Fires. But more on this later.

Q: Orb of Deception

This ability is already relatively cool, given it's function. You get to deal more damage if you land both parts of it, and you have to aim the second part of it by positioning carefully. New Swain's E works kind of like this, and it's a cool means of skill expression. This is something I would not change about the ability.

For the most part I would leave this ability unchanged. There is some debate over whether she should keep or lose the movement speed that the ability grants her. My only thoughts regarding this is that if the movement speed is kept, it should be changed so that the ability is more particular about when or even if she is granted movement speed by it. Perhaps it should reward her for hitting enemies, or it should only work when moving in a particular way. I don't really mind one way or the other about it though and I'm open to hearing other peoples ideas both for and against the movement speed on her existing Q.

W: Fox Fire

This ability has potential, but as it stands it's kind of lackluster. It is controlled by AI and it has a short range, making it feel very clunky and not very skill expressive to use. It is thematically pretty cool though, and the animation is also kind of cool, but it also already happens automatically when she casts her ultimate.

I've got a few different ideas for how it could be changed, but I'm not overly attached to them. They struck me as interesting, and I'd like to see your own thoughts about them as well. I'd like to know whether you like the proposals or not, and how you might tweak them in order to make them work well in your own opinion.

  1. What if this ability (and it's effect that occurs on her ultimate too) were moved to her passive (and tuned appropriately of course) so that she gained 3 fox-fires whenever she casts an ability? This could be expanded upon in any number of ways, including:
  • working when she lands an ability on an enemy, and then going on cooldown for some amount of time so that other abilities would not trigger it repeatedly. Her ultimate could perhaps ignore this cooldown and be allowed to generate fox-fires on each cast regardless of what the cooldown is.
  • grant some boon (like triggering essence thief healing or charming the target) upon using them effectively (such as hitting the same enemy with all three of them).
  • having fox-fires not deal damage, but instead grant her abilities cool effects when they hit enemies who have been struck by one or all 3 of the fox-fires.
  1. Combining the fox-fires with her Charm by making it so that enemies who are hit by all 3 fox-fires become charmed for a short duration.

  2. Giving her back the damage boost that she got on her charm, but only against targets who have been hit by 3 fox-fires (could potentially be made to work with her ultimate as well).

Both of the first two proposals would free up her W ability slot, so a new ability would be needed. I have no thoughts or opinion on what would go in that place, but if you have a favorite idea (or several ideas) please feel free to share them in the comments.

E: Charm

Ahri's Charm is a successful ability. Design-wise it is thematically appropriate, and Ahri players have multiple ways to use it - it can be used to pick an out-of-position enemy, or it could be used to defensively charm a diver or assassin who catches her, and it works great when chaining cc on an enemy who has already been picked by an ally. It does seem to fit fairly decently with her play pattern as well - helping her to land Q's or bring an enemy closer for her Fox Fires to hit.

But I can't help but look at Riot's recent reworks and new champions and think that this ability could be way cooler, and both more skill expressive and more interactive for opponents besides just a skillshot to dodge. I'm not sure exactly what I would want from an update to it, but if Riot does change it I hope that they implement some of their newer design techniques to provide a rewarding charm ability that also still has counter-play for her opponents. Maybe it could be made to work better if it interacted with Fox-Fires somehow. What do you think?

R: Spirit Rush

This ability is super iconic and really fun to use, and the animation for it is really great... but it has a bit of a problem because of how it gives her a lot of safety when she has it available. That said I really like her ultimate and I hope that Riot preserves the repeated dashes in some form or another. I do think that forcing her to use it defensively is good enough counterplay because then she can't use it to make plays, and perhaps she just needs more agency (along with counterplay of course) in the rest of her kit rather than have her ultimate changed too much.

Conclusion:

That's it for my thoughts as of now, please feel free to provide feedback or tweaks to the ideas presented above, and please feel free to share your own thoughts regarding Ahri and her potential rework. Discuss in the comments.

31 Comments

zero3562 votes

One, as far as I know, Ahri is way down on the list of potential reworks. Even then, I think she's more due for Xin Zhao and Shyv level mini-reworks, looking just at a few parts of her kit.

W needs changes, though I think it should just be a complete change and not a let's lump this in with something else.

For her passive, I personally like the healing; means I can be a bit cheekier in lane because I know I have a heal coming. As it were, making her passive something like the Pox Arcana from Black Market Brawlers (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Market_Brawlers) I think would be great. It could give back health or mana or both. Health is what the passive currently does. I suggest mana as well because as it stands, Ahri generally cannot spam her abilities as much as other mages and it's rather annoying. Personally, I would prefer mana nerfs to all the other mages, but since I doubt Rito's going to go for that, giving Ahri some mana help would be nice.

Or you could throw this in with her new W as a passive (or active, since Pox Arcana passively built stacks but was manually activated)

Q,E, and R are all pretty fine as it stands. Maybe some tweaks, especially dependent on any W changes, but overall pretty solid.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Meddler mentioned that they might take a look at Ahri after the AP itemization update in the upcoming patches.

See his gameplay thoughts post here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/ypmoIfEc-quick-gameplay-thoughts-february-14

I agree that W needs changes. IMO it might be cool to make it part of her passive and replace the W with a new ability.

I like the healing from her passive as well, and I think that Pox Arcana is a fantastic idea for how to model it. I would really like it to be something that stacks on enemies as she lands abilities on them, and then once they have reached a certain number of stacks her next ability that damages that target would heal her. If needed it could be made so that if the ability kills a target she still gets healing from whatever stacks they had on them.

And I agree that Ahri could do with some help in the mana department. Maybe it could do healing or Mana depending on which stat she has a lower % in. On second thought that would need additional balancing, because it could potentially set up a situation where she could spam abilities all day long as long as she has more health than mana and gets stacks on targets. On third thought never mind it should be fine. Getting stacks will require using more mana than she would gain, so this would actually be important given how she would run out of mana more quickly if she were trying to put stacks on enemies.

Yeah, with regards to Q E and R I'm getting that sense from everybody who replies. Most people are happy with them as they are so I'm starting to agree and hope that Riot does not change them much - if at all.

Cosmic Star2 votes

Hello there, really appreciate your post here, enjoyed a lot to read it.

First I want to mention this: --Riot's need's to either turn Ahri into a Mage or an Assassin, not both at the same time being a week mage in comparison with Lux, a burst mage or any other (cc-burst potential-poke). But she is also one of the weakest assassins and only successfully fulfills this role either if she get's fed/ahead by a big advantage or when the game reaches late game (Close/Full Build).

 Riot doesn't really knows if she is assassin but they keep her on the Blood Moon rotating game-mode. And it sucks, if you get fed yes it's cool but most of the times you will end up really poorly in comparison with the other assassins that do it much more efficiently. 

 Either they increase her cooldowns but increase her damage or decrease the cooldowns and lower damage, it's not really fun to play her in comparison with her old assassin style pre-rework. Most of the older Ahri players call her pre-rework the ''gold Ahri'' or something like that cause back then (yes she was OP and needed nerfs) she was actually fun in assassinations.

Now to her Kit discussion:

PASSIVE

 Indeed needs some work, the healing as you said needs a different trigger effect. 

I would propose, as you said, stacking on enemies, (Champions only) and maybe, if killing a minion with her abilities would also trigger a passive, (it would also trigger a cooldown so it if you killed a hole wave with a Q it would heal only as if it would only kill a minion preventing abusive sustain I would say). Thematically makes more sense, someone that dies near her makes it possible for her to suck their essence granting her flashbacks of memory and healing her.

ORB OF DECEPTION

 Everything's fine but the MS. I don't like the fact people spam it behind her to maker her faster, it's just somewhat stupid. 

I would suggest granting her MS if:

  1. Hits enemies with the 1º or 2º part only - minor boost of MS - Would trigger half of the CD of this boost;
  2. Hitting enemies with the hole Q would trigger a bigger MS boost -- Would trigger all of the CD of this boost;
  3. Hitting none would not grant her either no MS or a really small boost -- Would not trigger the CD of this boost.

The reason why I want a cooldown on her MS boost is because I want it to be somewhat meaningful and not just something that comes with the use of it as a minor bonus that people don't really see/care.

**** FOX FIRE****

Needs changes, it's really not healthy to see people one-shoting enemies with R + W, it's boring, doesn't show much skill expression, it's not really possible to counter.

I would either move this ability to her R (instead of her 3 shots for each ultimate used, it would have a cooler animation and somewhat more meaningful way to show where the damage comes from). I don't really want another ability to trade for this but I would give it a charge system maybe (Kassadins E also has a different way to charge it), I am not sure how, but I would like to give it different triggers / charge systems to make it more intuitive to use and more reliable instead of a useless ability that will just add damage to your combo by clicking one time every 5 seconds. Recommend to make it work especially good with her passive, more on this ahead.

CHARM

Good ability yet can be further upgraded, suggestions:

Working with her passive.

Her passive with her stacking new system would, let's say, stack till 9 on the enemy. When this reaches the limit (9 charges on the enemy) you could try to land her the Q-W-E for different boosts, Q ----» Instant MS boost and maybe some mana refund; W ----» Grant +Damage -Cooldown +Bonus Damage on the next abilty; E ----» Grant +CC Duration +Damage (not as much as the W buff) and maybe - Mana cost on the next ability or mana refund.

(sounds kinda OP but only testing we would see)

  1. This would actually give her combo more meaning and skill expression;
  2. Visually when the enemy is at the full 9 charges it could have some indicator above their health bar and a pre-cooldown so the enemy could prepare himself to give them time for the counter play (something akin to Evelyn's Charm cooldown after activation on the target).

SPIRIT RUSH

Don't think it actually needs major tweaks besides numbers, it's a fun ability, maybe only having a easier animation on the shots she fires since it was confusing to me the first times I played her.

I will appreciate any comments on this!

Note: I know there are lot's of champions that need reworks far more then her but this is just for discussion point of view!!

[sg-ahri-2]

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

Hello there, really appreciate your post here, enjoyed a lot to read it.

Well hello back at'cha!

Thank you :) I'm glad that you enjoyed reading the post! I'll try and respond to all of what you've said without missing anything.

First I want to mention this: --Riot's need's to either turn Ahri into a Mage or an Assassin, not both at the same time being a week mage in comparison with Lux, a burst mage or any other (cc-burst potential-poke). But she is also one of the weakest assassins and only successfully fulfills this role either if she get's fed/ahead by a big advantage or when the game reaches late game (Close/Full Build).

 Riot doesn't really knows if she is assassin but they keep her on the Blood Moon rotating game-mode. And it sucks, if you get fed yes it's cool but most of the times you will end up really poorly in comparison with the other assassins that do it much more efficiently. 

 Either they increase her cooldowns but increase her damage or decrease the cooldowns and lower damage, it's not really fun to play her in comparison with her old assassin style pre-rework. Most of the older Ahri players call her pre-rework the ''gold Ahri'' or something like that cause back then (yes she was OP and needed nerfs) she was actually fun in assassinations.

I see where you are coming from with this, being somewhere between a Mage and an Assassin has made Ahri really complicated to balance in the past. I think that most of all what I want to see from Ahri is a character who has a high-risk, high-reward playstyle. She should go into fights, try to pick targets, and dance in and out of combat in order to effectively kill enemies while not being killed herself.

I believe that she should be able to make plays like her assassin playstyle long before late-game, but with healthy amounts of counterplay and skill expression. Whatever changes Riot decides to make to her W will hopefully help address this.

Now to her Kit discussion:

PASSIVE

 Indeed needs some work, the healing as you said needs a different trigger effect. 

I would propose, as you said, stacking on enemies, (Champions only) and maybe, if killing a minion with her abilities would also trigger a passive, (it would also trigger a cooldown so it if you killed a hole wave with a Q it would heal only as if it would only kill a minion preventing abusive sustain I would say). Thematically makes more sense, someone that dies near her makes it possible for her to suck their essence granting her flashbacks of memory and healing her.

Thanks for this! It looks like we agree in general but have slightly different interpretations of it. That said, I think I'd be just as happy with your version as I would be with mine.

ORB OF DECEPTION

 Everything's fine but the MS. I don't like the fact people spam it behind her to maker her faster, it's just somewhat stupid. 

I would suggest granting her MS if:

  1. Hits enemies with the 1º or 2º part only - minor boost of MS - Would trigger half of the CD of this boost;
  2. Hitting enemies with the hole Q would trigger a bigger MS boost -- Would trigger all of the CD of this boost;
  3. Hitting none would not grant her either no MS or a really small boost -- Would not trigger the CD of this boost.

The reason why I want a cooldown on her MS boost is because I want it to be somewhat meaningful and not just something that comes with the use of it as a minor bonus that people don't really see/care.

I wholeheartedly agree, people spamming it behind them to have more movement speed seems really crappy and way outside it's intended scope.

I think it might be cool if the ability granted much less movement speed in general but more movement speed if the orb is nearer to an enemy, this rewards Ahri for trying to position carefully in order to aim it, and it rewards her for playing at the edge of her intended range for dealing damage.

**** FOX FIRE****

Needs changes, it's really not healthy to see people one-shoting enemies with R + W, it's boring, doesn't show much skill expression, it's not really possible to counter.

I would either move this ability to her R (instead of her 3 shots for each ultimate used, it would have a cooler animation and somewhat more meaningful way to show where the damage comes from). I don't really want another ability to trade for this but I would give it a charge system maybe (Kassadins E also has a different way to charge it), I am not sure how, but I would like to give it different triggers / charge systems to make it more intuitive to use and more reliable instead of a useless ability that will just add damage to your combo by clicking one time every 5 seconds. Recommend to make it work especially good with her passive, more on this ahead.

Personally I still like the idea of making Fox Fire be part of her passive and give it a Lich Bane like effect, that triggers on spellcasts and then goes on cooldown. (Casting ultimate could ignore this cooldown) But now that I've seen what you're suggesting with your discussion of Charm I'm actually really excited by your ideas!

CHARM

Good ability yet can be further upgraded, suggestions:

Working with her passive.

Her passive with her stacking new system would, let's say, stack till 9 on the enemy. When this reaches the limit (9 charges on the enemy) you could try to land her the Q-W-E for different boosts, Q ----» Instant MS boost and maybe some mana refund; W ----» Grant +Damage -Cooldown +Bonus Damage on the next abilty; E ----» Grant +CC Duration +Damage (not as much as the W buff) and maybe - Mana cost on the next ability or mana refund.

(sounds kinda OP but only testing we would see)

  1. This would actually give her combo more meaning and skill expression;
  2. Visually when the enemy is at the full 9 charges it could have some indicator above their health bar and a pre-cooldown so the enemy could prepare himself to give them time for the counter play (something akin to Evelyn's Charm cooldown after activation on the target).

I like this a lot. It adds a lot of interesting choices to Ahri's gameplay, and having different effects on each ability when used on a target with stacks would be really really cool :)

SPIRIT RUSH

Don't think it actually needs major tweaks besides numbers, it's a fun ability, maybe only having a easier animation on the shots she fires since it was confusing to me the first times I played her.

I agree, her ultimate doesn't need changes, it's quite fun as it is. That said, it does seem kind of weird to me that she gets Fox Fires automatically while ulting, and I think this could be consolidated better by moving Fox-Fire into a passive (either on her ultimate or on her actual passive). But I've talked about this exhaustively already so I don't want to be too redundant about it.

I will appreciate any comments on this!

Note: I know there are lot's of champions that need reworks far more then her but this is just for discussion point of view!!

[sg-ahri-2]

That's the point right? :) We discuss it as thoroughly as we can and hope that the developers working on Ahri see this while browsing the boards for discussions of her!

Cosmic Star1 votes

[sg-ahri-2] [sg-lux] [sg-kiko]

HalcyonDweller1 votes

What do you think of a passive that makes her abilities generate Fox Fires? Would it be clunky? Fine? Fun? Boring? OP?

I'm imagining something where she could generate stacks of her passive on enemies both with her abilities and with the Fox-Fire passive. Her ultimate could be the exception to the cooldown, allowing her to generate them on each cast of her ultimate. But then I'm not sure what effect would go on the ultimate, since aside from the Fox-Fires it would just be a set of 3 dashes. Maybe it could be a passive on the ultimate instead, what do you think?

Cosmic Star1 votes

Hmmm, in the right numbers I think it would work actually, but that needed to make her spamming more abilities wouldn't it? But it was going to be definitely fun to play around it, managing to get the maximum from your abilities as possible.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

It's possible, if it had a cooldown like the passive you suggested has then it might be doable without requiring spamming. And I know that 9 is supposed to be part of her theme, but since the passive is changing to something that stacks on enemies it might be warranted to change the requirement to something lower, it's a lot less feasible to get 9 stacks on one enemy than it is to get 9 instances of damage off on enemies indiscriminately.

Cosmic Star1 votes

They could always make the abilities stack more, let's say the Q 3 ,the charm 3 and the W other 3. But having charm granting 3 is kinda weird...

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Hmm, possibly. I wonder if it might work to have Fox-Fire be a part of it, like Fox fire ends up being part of her passive so it happens whenever she casts spells, and landing Fox-Fires (and possibly other abilities too) on them adds stacks. It could be given a short cooldown to prevent her from doing it all in one trade, but perhaps her ultimate could ignore this cooldown and use it for each cast.

LunaGalaxy141 votes

The reason why her R gives so much dash in one go is that it pushes her to use it for catching people and it's way more iconic; than, say, the ammo system it used to be like before her ultimate got changed to fit an assassin playstyle.

With that said, it seems fine enough on its own unless she undergoes a drastic playstyle change, which she doesn't need as Ahri's direction seems to be targeted towards the assassin clique due to thematic sense and how Riot have been basing Ahri's patches on.

If Riot or anyone is thinking of discussing her, the assassin/burst clique she holds should be accounted for. I have more thoughts on her, but that is what I will have to say for now.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I agree with you, Ahri's ultimate in it's current state is actually pretty good. It's powerful when it is up, but if you can force her to use it defensively then you have a big advantage over her for a while. And her assassin playstyle is fun, going for risky plays with her ultimate is really satisfying when you pull them off successfully.

I'd like to know your other thoughts about her as well, as you seem to have a well-developed perspective on the champion.

LunaGalaxy141 votes

Innate

  1. I believe the life-stealing/sustain this ability makes her unique from other assassins, so this reward should be kept. (Mitigates poke and encourages her to risk for kills)
  2. Going off with what you said, the quest tied with the "reward" should be changed so it's more champion-centric and less on how many enemies she can affect with her abilities (reason: her current passive sidesteps away from an assassin theme and more of a battle mage/artilerry style).
  3. One way this could be approached is a debuff/mark/effect.
  • Should it be applied on attack? No, it doesn't make sense on a mage champion.

  • Should it be applied after 3-hits/abilities in x amount of seconds? Maybe, it helps line her up towards a burst-style champ; but it might ruin the fun of drawing out her ultimate dashes along with ruining counterplay (it should also be considered that this overlaps with other things that exist already and is generally an overused cliche).

  • How about a debuff (that can only be applied to one champ like vayne w passive) applied on ability and then something special after x seconds pass?--- ((got caught short here, I'll be back in the afternoon with some more thoughts))

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I agree on point #1, in my opinion Ahri's playstyle should revolve around dancing in and out of a fight - risking for kills, while making use of the healing of her passive to support that risk by giving her some sustain of some sort. I don't want to just create another New Swain (copying his passive would be kind of lame) but I do think that she should get healing somewhere in her kit, and it does seem practical to have it on her passive.

I'm especially interested in moving Fox Fires onto her passive as well somehow, and making it something that works when she uses abilities and meets special conditions. It could potentially be applied with 3-hits of the fox-fires, rewarding Ahri for positioning in a fight so that the fox-fires hit the same target.

As for debuff I've found 2 possible ideas that could be suitable:

  1. give Ahri her Charm's old damage boost against the target while they are affected, or

  2. it could grant her spell-vamp only against targets who have been affected by the 3-hits.

I'll look forwards to your other thoughts later then. In the meantime thank you for sharing your thoughts as much as you have already, you are helping me to forge a more inclusive understanding of what people would want from an Ahri rework.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I really think ahri only has 3 spots where I'd be happy to see change.

  1. Her passive. I could care less about it. Change how it heals, give it a damage component, whatever. Any change here is welcome.

  2. MS on her Q: make it conditional, make it scale with level, or do no change, i don't think this is a fundamental part of her kit.

  3. Her W: make it a 3-part skillshot, or give her a whole new damaging ability. This ability is really boring and I'm even less attached to it than her passive.

Otherwise though: I'd absolutely hate to see any change to the offensive portion of her Q, or any change to E or R (obviously other than necessary numerical changes, to cooldown/damage/missile speed/possibly range). Her charm is one of the healthiest cc skillshots in the game, being much more difficult to land than similar duration abilities (if she doesn't use R to set it up) and much less rewarding than similarly difficult to land abilities (Morgana Q, etc...). It's healthy, and not underpowered, because she does have the tools to land it, via burning her ultimate before trying (i.e. you can punish her if you outplay and dodge, versus not really having any real advantage on a Syndra who misses her stun and doesn't have to burn ult until after she hits you). Likewise R having 3 dashes is iconic and necessary for ahri, 1 for the engage, 1 for damage, 1 to escape.

I think a simple change to reduce get healing on passive and compensate with damage, or change w to a skillshot with more damage potential (especially after a charm), would be enough to make ahri on par with newer champions. The rest of her kit has aged extremely well.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I agree in that I don't want to see her Q changed too much. Same for her R.

And I can see from what you've said that her E is already a good ability, perhaps I was mistaken to suggest that Charm be modernized / updated.

And it seems we agree that her passive and her W could do with some improvements or replacing.

Ifneth1 votes

I like these ideas! What if we made these changes?

P - Essence Theft Spell hits and takedowns empower the next ability Ahri casts.

Q - Orb of Deception Movement speed only applies toward enemy champions hit. Empowered: Ahri gains flat movement speed.

W - Fox Fire Empowered: Heals Ahri for the damage dealt.

E - Charm Empowered: Cooldown reset.

R - Spirit Rush Ahri dashes once. Empowered: Ahri gains three dashes.

She would have higher highs from the healing and charm reset and lower lows from missing her abilities.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

At first glance I like these ideas, but looking deeper and envisioning spell rotations and play patterns I'm a bit troubled. The effects that you've added seem cool (and some a little too powerful even) while the triggers for those effects are way too difficult to achieve. Additionally you've taken power out of the cooler parts of her kit and moved it into the less interactive and less skill expressive parts of the kit.

This is essentially going to make Ahri much weaker because her actual power is all tied up in a snowball that is difficult to get rolling. It's going to make her rotations very feast/famine, because either she will succeed and be able to use that to extend a trade and make it end vastly in her favor or she will fail from the get-go and the entire trade will be a flop. Part of the problem is that there is no in-between for these two outcomes, and less room for skill expression because of that.


Passive:

Essentially her old passive was moved onto her W and then it was given a difficult to accomplish trigger. Now she has to land abilities in order to land more abilities and get cooler effects... In teamfights it should be fine, but in laning phase? It's going to be nonexistent except against melees.


Orb of Deception:

Her Q is now conditional, which I like, but the trigger is convoluted and difficult to accomplish. She has to land another spell for it to grant her movement speed. If we're talking about her W, then she's not going to land it on any enemies unless they are melee, ranged characters just stay too far away too much of the time. And if we're talking about her E, she won't need the movement speed from Q anyways because the charm will hold the enemy still long enough to land both parts of the Q. All-in-all it's going to make her oppressive for melees to deal with and laughable for ranged characters to deal with.


Fox Fire

Her W remains unchanged, which goes against the gripe that everyone has about it anyways is part of the whole gripe that players have had about her lately anyways. Her old W is a dead skill slot that offers no skill expression because it is only activatable, and it auto-targets nearby enemies so you don't get to do anything special or clever with it. Old W lacks skill expression, and so it should be the part of her kit to change the most if she gets reworked.


Charm:

Her E should not be given a cooldown reset (and especially not one that is based on landing other abilities first). Here's why:

  1. First of all it's her pick-spell which puts it at the start of her rotation, meaning that if she is using it correctly then it won't matter what kind of empowered effect it could have because she won't use it.

  2. Second, this is actually going to make her extremely safe even in the early game, because if anybody dives onto her she can just W->E and then have E off cooldown immediately for when the first charm wears off. She will be able to self-chain CC against enemy divers and assassins. This is going to make opponents avoid interacting with her because if they put themselves in range for a Q or W then she can just go (Q/W)->E->(Q/W)+E->E and keep them cc'd longer than Zoe's Sleepy Trouble Bubble.

  3. Giving her a reset like this is going to turn her into a glorified charm-bot. Remember how people hated Tank Ekko and Tank Fizz? Buckle up for Tank Ahri. People will build tankier to make up for her weakness to missing skills and she will just sit in fights soaking damage and chaining spells on enemies. That is neither the assassin playstyle nor the kite-mage playstyle.


Spirit Rush:

I'd be okay with locking her 3-cast R behind an empowerment if the trigger weren't so difficult to achieve. But it doesn't even self-trigger to reward her for using it aggressively. This is far too punishing to the Ahri player. In terms of power budget though it is actually appropriate because you moved all of her power budget into being able to reset charms.

Ifneth2 votes

Wow, thanks for this awesome and detailed reply! I see why these changes wouldn’t work.

What if we did this, then?

Passive: Spell hits on champions and takedowns empower Ahri’s abilities.

Empowered Orb: Heals Ahri for the true damage to champions.

Empowered Rush: Grants Ahri flat movespeed.

Empowered Charm: Basic ability cooldown reduced by half.

Empowered Ultimate: Grants Ahri another dash. Each spell can grant only one charge.

Ahri would gain sustain in lane from the true damage, since the outgoing Orb would empower its incoming hit. The other ability empowerments would enable her teamfighting. The movespeed from Spirit Rush would let her transition from one all-in to the next. The partial reset from her empowered charm would make sure her abilities would be up. The empowered ultimate would grant her sticking power gated only by her ability to hit spells.

How about that?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Wow, thanks for this awesome and detailed reply! I see why these changes wouldn’t work.

You are most welcome, and thank you for not taking it the wrong way! I know I sounded rather critical at times.

What if we did this, then?

Passive: Spell hits on champions and takedowns empower Ahri’s abilities.

Empowered Orb: Heals Ahri for the true damage to champions.

Empowered Rush: Grants Ahri flat movespeed.

Empowered Charm: Basic ability cooldown reduced by half.

Empowered Ultimate: Grants Ahri another dash. Each spell can grant only one charge.

Ahri would gain sustain in lane from the true damage, since the outgoing Orb would empower its incoming hit. The other ability empowerments would enable her teamfighting. The movespeed from Spirit Rush would let her transition from one all-in to the next. The partial reset from her empowered charm would make sure her abilities would be up. The empowered ultimate would grant her sticking power gated only by her ability to hit spells.

How about that?

Okay so we're talking like, landing the ability empowers the rest of it? So Q empowers the second half of Q, and R could empower itself if it damages enemies?

Also, landing empowered charm grants the next ability reduced cooldown? Or landing empowered charm puts charm on half cooldown?

Also I do like this quite a bit better than the earlier version.

How would you feel about making the passive something that marks enemies instead of gives Ahri an "empowered" charge? That way she would be rewarded for hitting enemies that she has already landed spells on, and it might fit her theme of taking essence from enemies really well, what do you think?

Ifneth2 votes

Yeah, abilities empower themselves, including R. So, you can R E R W R Q R R. It's only 1 extra cast without any takedowns, and Ahri would have to land all her spells. I think that having ability hits empower her abilities fits her essence-theft theme better because it makes her stronger as she fights.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Okay that sounds really cool, maybe a little too powerful though if she is able to have 5 Rs.

I see what you're talking about when you say it makes her stronger as she fights, and it's smart to have it be something that wears off instead of being stackable over time like her current passive.

Props dude!

What would be the unempowered version of her W in the new kit? Still Fox Fire? (If so I might have some further questions / suggestions).

Ifneth1 votes

She would have to land the first R to get 5, though. If she can land everything with only one dash to start and no guaranteed extra dashes, then a couple extra dashes is fair. If it's OP, then we can prevent R from empowering itself.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Oh that's a good point! Maybe it's fine then, I was just raising the concern because I know that some players will likely get frustrated if Ahri gets to dash around them 5 times.

This sort of minor tweak would be something that would need to be tested in order to figure out what it satisfying or what is too powerful.

Ifneth1 votes

Well, Ahri can do that right now. She can land a charm to set up her orb and spirit rush and then spam her dash for damage. With the new ult, if she wanted to use all her dashes during an all-in, then she would have to dash after each spell. This gives me an idea...


Passive: Ahri gains 50% out of combat movement speed toward visible enemy champions.

Orb of Deception: Heals Ahri for True Damage dealt to champions.

Spirit Rush: Grants Ahri her passive movement speed in-combat for three seconds.

Charm: Half of cooldown refunded on Champion hit. Cooldown reset on takedown.

Ult: Takedowns grant Ahri an extra dash.

Ahri would have sustain in lane, strong roaming, and good teamfighting, but with clear win conditions.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Whoah, okay that's pretty damn cool. I like your idea of spacing the ultimates out by only allowing them to be cast after casting other abilities.

In order to prevent the current problem of Ahri's throwing Qs behind them it might be a good idea to make this ultimate reset only work if those abilities land on an enemy.

Ifneth1 votes

Note I just edited my ult description. Giving her a no-cooldown ult that charged on ability hit would mean she could spam dashes in teamfights as long as she kept landing Q. It would be spammy.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Ah understood, that makes sense. I'm still sad to see her mobility from her ultimate lost but it makes sense and is somewhat made up for by the increased movement speed with her passive / W. I like your idea for the W but I think it might be warranted to amp up a little more.

I think that maybe that passive + W combo could be put on her W slot (as a passive/active that is lost while on cooldown), and I think that the movement speed from activating it should work in any direction not just towards enemies. It might need lower % movespeed if this were implemented though, or a really short duration.

Fox fire could be put on her passive as an on-spellcast effect with her existing spellvamp being granted against enemies who she manages to land 3 spell-hits on (including fox fire).

Ifneth1 votes

Her ultimate would be one dash, plus another dash for every ability she lands. I agree that her passive should be different. How about this?

Passive: Essence Theft Ahri heals for the true damage dealt by her Orb of Deception.

Q: Orb of Deception Grants 10% movement speed away from enemies hit.

W: Fox Fire Ahri fires a barrage of fire wisps in a line.

E: Charm One third of cooldown refunded on champion hit. Two thirds refunded on takedown.

R: Spirit Rush Ahri dashes to the target location and empowers the next basic ability hit within three seconds to grant her another dash. Takedowns refresh this empowerment and reset the duration of Spirit Rush.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Your idea is cool but I think we have slightly different visions of what the champion should end up like. Don't put too much effort into getting my approval, your ideas are great without needing me to like them.

The things I liked most from before were getting movement speed for hitting enemies with Q, or getting movement speed from casting W. And I liked your ideas regarding her ultimate by gating the extra casts behind landing spells. For the rest of her kit I have my own ideas, and it's ok for us to think differently about it.

Ifneth1 votes

I removed those because they would lead to situations where Ahri could just press W and run at people. That wouldn’t feel fair, as would her getting perma-boosted from Q procs. I also needed to put in her Essence-Theft theme. Does my design make more sense now?

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