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SummonersLab, Part 3: Tower Changes

Lord Desert··13 votes·993 views

Today we look at the recent tower changes and see if they hit the mark or if theres room for some improvement.

Currently those are the topics and their (hopefully) release date: SummonersLab, The Introduction Here SummonersLab, Part 1: An additional Crit Item Here SummonersLab, Part 2: Crit Algorithm Improvement Here SummonersLab, Part 3: Tower Changes Here SummonersLab, Part 4: Ohmwrecker Here SummonersLab, Part 5: Support Role Improvement(1) Here SummonersLab, Part 6: Wits End Here SummonersLab, Part 7: Smite Buffs Here SummonersLab, Part 8: Plants Here SummonersLab, Part 9: ** Support Role Improvement (2)** _ Here _ SummonersLab, Part 10: ** General Improvements (1)** Here _ SummonersLab, Part 11: ** General Improvements (2)**_ Here

Ill put links to the posts here, so you can easily view all of them. http://imgur.com/FN2e8Ns

1. The Change

Currently every tower on the map is the same typ, this was made in patch 6.22 for consistency reasons. Before that the nexus and inhib towers fired a laser beam which dealt lower dmg but fired alot faster and ramped up in dmg. To avoid a wall of numbers here, the dmg was about the same, but it had 75% armorpen instead of the 30% from the normal bullets.

If only the armorpen changed why do i even make a post about this?

  1. The stats may stayed around the same, but the clearing time of minions changed alot!
  2. There is something that bothered me for quiet some time with the tower algorithm, but we revisit that later. But basicly the towers got alot weaker, you may have noticed that already in your games, and im here to show you why they really are weaker!

#2. Math, .....again

Jesus, to much math everywhere, but lets get through this: The tower attackspeed changed from 4.0 to 0.83, the armorpen went down from 75% to 30% and the turret shots now deal a fixed %max HP vs minions, depending on the minion Typ. And the beam also ramped up vs everything, while the tower bullets only ramp up vs champs.

Ok lets first look at the clearing time of a normal minion wave: (3melees, 3caster) I will not do 100% precise and detailed math here, since that is way more complicated then needed...

Old: Melee: ~2.5s - 3s (depending on the ingametime), Caster _ ~1.5s_ New: Melee:_ 3.6s (3shots), Caster: 2.4s (2 shots)_ Total clear time: Old: 9s + 3s = ~12 s New: 10.8s + 4.8s = 15.6s About 4s difference, That is frecking huge! And its only a normal Wave, not a big one or with siege minions! But the best part only comes now!

Superminions need 20 shots, ignoring their 30% redcution vs tower and their 30armor. So to take down a Superminion we need ~30 shots, which take ~36s to be fired! A new Superminions spawns every 30s...

Calculating the old time is way to depended on the game, but in a 1v1 the old tower, is about ~40% - 25% faster.(depending on the ingame time) So it would take **only 20s - 27s **to clear a Superminion. Those current towers are WEAK! Extra: I tried to include the new minions in the math with the old towers so we get a accurate comparision.

As you can see, the old towers cleared normal minions faster and were by far supiorier at clearing Supers! I would highly suggest to reverted this, or try to compensate the now way weaker Towers! They need it! Right now they are made out of paper!

3. Armor and Mr Gain

For those who may not know: Towers get Ar&Mr over time! making them a bit more sturdy. You may have know that, but did you know that the gain is based solely on the ingame time? Outers get +2 Ar/Mr every minute starting at 1:00, capping at +30. Inners get +2 Ar/Mr every minute starting at 16 min ingame! capping at +30. InhibTs get +2 Ar/Mr every minute starting at 31 min ingame! capping at +30. NexusTs get +2 Ar/Mr every minute starting at 30 min ingame! capping at +30.

So Tier 2 towers only get stronger AFTER 16 mins! And Tier 3s only after 31 mins! Thus if you take a Outer early, you can push futher and deal more dmg vs the Inner then you did vs the outer! You have till 16 min ingame before it starts to get a bit more durable.

You dont only lose the Map Pressure, Safety and are even further behind because the enemy got Gold from killing your tower, no, even the next tower is considerable weaker in terms of durability too! This is a bit to hard of a punishment if you ask me! ** So what do I plan to change? ** Thats simple: If you lose a Tower, the current stacks are transfered over to the next tower! And/Or as soon as a tower becomes targetable (so the tower before got destroyed) its starts its Ar/Mr scaling! And not waits x years before it gets slightly stronger.
That is the basic version.

The advanced version adds every stack from the tower before over to the next, if it gets destroyed. That means, if the Outer gets all 15 stacks (+30Ar/Mr) the Inner gets those stacks, as soon as the Outer gets destroyed. It then starts immediatley scaling up to +30 Ar/Mr additional on top of the already +30 from the outer. if now a fully stacked Inner gets destroyed the Inhibtower then gets +60 Ar/Mr!!(30 Outer + 30 Inner). And this goes on to the nexus towers. But the nexus towers only get the highest stacks from 1 lane, and not from all 3 together.

**What does this do? **

  1. If you take 1 tower and leave the lane the next tower gets stonger faster.
  2. Taking towers fast will be rewarded with less durable Towers. But those towers will still be more durable then the current version, since they start stacking immediately! And not just at a certain time in the game.
  3. Inhib and Nexus towers will be far more durable then the current versions.
  4. You will not be as punishable after losing a tower, since the next tower will be more durable.
  5. They still get Ar/Mr at certain times! Like the current version, but can start scaling up faster.

4. Extra Ideas

Currently the towers are to weak. Doing the faster scling Ar/Mr idea + buffing/reverting the Inhib-/Nexus Towers might be already enough. On Top the ramp up dmg should stay longer, before reseting and untargetablility no longer reset tower aggro! (suggested by ZT Xperimentor) But could look at some crazy ideas too, those are not as fleshed out/ looked at in terms of balance:

Buyable Tower Upgrades:

  • faster AS
  • more dmg/ more dmg vs champs/minions only
  • bigger range
  • more ar/mr/hp
  • a shield if friendly champs are nearby (like old Inners)
  • upgraded Hp regen

Since towers are defensiv only structures, making the ugrades purchasable with money or cs is not so good, since the team that might need those will have less gold already. If a tower is lost or you destroyed a tower then you might be able to choose 1 upgrade. If its purchasable with Money it might only be a late game thing, which is not that nice. Another option would be a free "reseach" which takes like 10 mins to finish, but who gets to decide which research should be done, is rather tricky. A voting system might be a decent solution. But this might be overall a bit to gimmicky, and its impact might not be that noticable.

#5. TL;DR:

  • current Towers are to weak, specially Inhib- & NexusTowers
  • reverting the Inhib/nexus change might be a good decision
  • Ar/Mr scaling should start as soon as the lower tier tower gets destroyed!
  • possibly transfering gained stacks from lower tier tower on top of own scalings, making specially Inhib&Nexus Tower way more durable
  • ramped up dmg stays longer and untargetability will not reset tower aggro
  • Buyable tower upgrades (not fully fleshed out yet)

I toned down the math part alot, a good decision, trust me! The superminion calculations were crazy complicated, i hope i could make them understandable enough. What do you think about the faster scaling Ar/Mr? or transfering already gained stacks? Do you have other ideas for the towers?

13 Comments

Epicanian1 votes

Well thought out post, you clearly spent a lot of time on it. Surprised it's seen so little attention. +1

Lord Desert1 votes

Long and in-depth post have a higher chance of beeing just a rant and alot fall asleep after 2 mins of reading this(20 sec max, if i would include the full math part xDD) even a TL;DR helps just by a small amount. On Top, this is basicly just a Idea, but its already quiet fleshed out in terms of balance, and not just a provoking/complaining/questioning post. I could get this to the hot site, if i made unreasonable buffs etc. Then everybody would complain, but way more guys will see it :P But Im not fishing for votes here, rather giving a real idea/improvement :D But i hope you like it and the other parts of the series :D

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Some other ideas I've collected for possible buffs, only one of which I'd hope is sufficient.

1 - Give them grievous wounds; to reduce the annoyance of sustainers from tower diving early.

2 - Add an exhaust effect; whoever the tower attacks has reduced damage output.

3 - Deal a percentage of the target's health; either current, maximum, or missing. Dealing all three would be absurd.

4 - Remove the current damage cap on their 'warming up/heated up' passive from their 'penetrating bullets' item.

5 - Increase their Range and/or Rate of attack.

6 - Give them a longer time before reseting; turrets currently immediately loose all stacks of 'heat' against someone just because they side step it's max range for a half second, perhaps a 2 second window would be sufficient.

7 - Give them the ability to ignore 'dodge' mechanics; like the previous, they'll reset their aggro (and thus damage) when it's targeted champion becomes untargetable despite being in range (fizz, ekko, hourglass, ext.).

8 - Splash damage when attacking enemy champions; straight forward enough I hope, similar to being able to target more than a single enemy champion.

9 - Grant towers some kind of interruption ability; so an enemy champion can't camp underneath your tower, like a slight knockback similar to dragon or something.

10 - Deal true damage; self explanatory.

11 - Boost tower defense stats; either return scaling over time, or just a general boost (health, armor, magic resist; or some combination).

I do like your idea to buy/build items though, reminds me of the black market brawlers game mode.

Lord Desert1 votes

Grivious and an exhaust typ wouldnt fit thematicly, no cap in dmg would lead to frustrating experience(1-2shoted squishys) and to punishing for no tank teams/not so good players(cause of the aggro management) :/

Splash vs champs will not help that much since its often 1 main tank/diver and the rest is futher away, so a huge splash radius would be needed. Or the Multishot, like hurricans.

Range should also stay the same to keep them consistant in terms of dangerzones.

% dmg on towers would pushing tanks to much and squishys to less, so a mix would be needed, but that gives unreliable dmg, which is also not that hot in riots view. Same with true dmg, but an increase from the current 30% ArPen to the 70% from the Laser should be a good addition!

The knockback/ground/slow effect would be to strong if permanent, but on an active, like ohmwrecker that is quiet possible!

They really need a defensiv state boost! A small increase in fire rate for the inhib and nexus Towers in the base shouldnt hurt since the minion waves can become bigger and bigger the close we are to the nexus. They should also keep the ramped uped Dmg longer and should keep enemies focused even when they go untargetable! Those are great ideas!!!

The idea of the "you can buy upgrades to towers" came form the idea, that its your own base, why shouldnt you be able to upgrade it?! :D Ill include the 2 ideas to the post, those are really nice and working ideas!

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Theme's have long since been killed since riot retconned the old lore. That's the point, so it damages more than one enemy, regardless.

What danger zone? Supports have been pulling off successful dives since riot nerfed turrets. Isn't that the point of your post? Buff towers in some fashion.

Percent damage depends; Maximum would hurt tanks more, but current would hurt squishies more since they tend to lifesteal.

How would you activate a structure?

Agreed, they're like paper-mache; though I'd say their ramping damage should have the cap removed too, they don't deal much damage at full stacks. Between them being easily broken and pathetic attacks, they're not remotely threatening. But I also like the idea of keeping ramped damage between targets until there's nothing else to attack.

And thanks, not all of them are my ideas, but I'd have to check which ones were quotes I collected.

Lord Desert1 votes

the holidays killed me xD sr to take so long to answer!

Its more a logical thing, like doing a small AA and the target explodes like a ziggs R. Or chogaths E healing enemys hit. This kind of logic. Towers do dmg, they dont de-/buff or heal you.

The danger zone is the tower range, you already cant see the range and if this would increase/decrease it would need to be made pretty visual so it not unfair. For example you get attacked by a tower where you normaly wouldnt have been attacked before. Thats what i meant with that.

If we give towers % dmg we also should give it flat dmg. So its not to unfair against a certain typ. But an increased armorpen from 30% to 70% should already do the trick to be honest.

Ether the "buffs" are permanently bought in the shop, or on items (ohmwrecker) or on trinkets etc. But ether permanently or with ohmwrecker are the best ideas.

They dont deal much anymore because the ArPen got gutted to 30% to. The flat dmg was about the same before the change!!! But they seriously need an increase in AR/MR!

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

No worries dude! I changed jobs about a month before the holiday get-togethers so it was hectic for me too.

Are you suggesting giving the towers a specific kind of aoe?

I already know that, I'm being rhetorical given how often people can run through them without much danger. I don't know why they removed the range indicator for towers when you clicked them, it'd be quite useful for that too.

I didn't mean replace it's damage type for another, but add them, yes a flat value with bonus percent damage. Part of the problem isn't tanks, it's the hyper-mobile assassins & draining marksmen; which is why I suggested grievous wounds instead of more armor penetration.

I like the idea of buying permanent buffs for towers; honestly it's what I thought nexus siege was going to be . . . but disappointed.

They also got a cap on their damage, which is a huge limitation in effectiveness! I concur about more defense though.

Lord Desert1 votes

Aoe vs minions would be to strong, i thought about a multishot thing like hurricans bolts or so. Ether when the tower gets temporarily buffed (by ohmwrecker for example) or permantly vs champ but the 2nd or the 2nd+3rd should be lower in dmg. But i had no extra special aoe in mind. other then the "grounded zone".

Im not sure why they dont show the tower range but atleast you can see them vs bots. The only thing i could came up with is that the range never changes, so it doesnt need an extra range indicator, but who knows :/

%dmg is a bit tricky since the actual dmg values change so its not clear from the get go how much dmg you will take. and it is unfair towards tanks, since they invested alot of gold into tankiness, but they still take the same dmg as squishys. thats why i think %dmg is not the best solution. The assasins are to mobile and the drain Adcs have to much range/have tanks for them, so a small dmg increase would not really have any impact, only if the dmg is extremely high from the get go. Towers should give some protection, but they are not trimmed to be protectiv. Champions are far better in this term! If they attacked champs as soon as they walked in their range then they would be protectiv.

The upgrade part is nice, but the "how to purchase" is a bit problematic, since the team that is behind should more likely get the upgrades, but they are already behind in lvl and exp...

Well they do 120% dmg on the 4th shot already (which can be more then 500 dmg!) but since the ArPen got down to 30% from 75% it hardly tickels tanks :D So give them back the 75% or atleast 50% Pen then they surely do not tickel around anymore :D

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I was thinking like the tiamat or hydra; but yes limited to when enemy champions are in range &/or targeted by the tower.

I can see why they don't, so people can be more gusty with error of judgement; but I'd think the visual indicator is a must if the range changes for any reason.

Tanks are particularly beat by turrets anyway thanks to their built-in armor penetration. I think as long as the damage scales up linearly, then it should be easy enough to predict how many shots they can take (for example first hit does 1/10th hp, second deals 1/5th hp, third hit deals 3/10th hp, ext). And also why I suggested grievous wounds first, though tanks also rely on sustain; sustain tends to be abused by fighters & marksmen much more. Though personally I'd say the turrets should be doing flat true damage with grounding & gw, riot will never do it. Towers have always fallen off late game, problem is from all the mobility & damage creep riot has enforced; it's turned the early game into late game long before mid-game used to happen.

A way to shortcut the problem of a behind team buying more turret upgrades; make the costs scale down by some percentage of team level difference. Something like 5 levels down is like 15% cheaper tower upgrades or whatnot; so the ahead team can't fortify their already significant advantage, but the potential comeback isn't like a jackhammer either.

The cap also prevents them from doing much to anyone with health, which includes fighters, mages & some abusive marksmen/assassins lol.

Lord Desert1 votes

well lets do some math: 300 armor vs 30% and 70% ArPen. 30% -> ~200 armor left = 66% reduction. 70% -> ~100 Armor left = 50% reduction. full armor tanks still take low but atleast decent dmg. (250 @4th shot with 70%, compared to 165 from the 30%) But common guys with 100 Ar are down to 23% reduction, and not 42%!!! so the tower already deals 390 and not 290.

You should be able to itemiaze vs turrets, and if you invest in tanky items you should get less dmg from a turret then your adc. Think about it: You get hit for 250 ,beeing full tank invested everything in HP, Mr and Ar, and your adc gets hit for 250 too... so %hp or truedmg are simply just unreasonable, they dont make much sense :D

Tanks normaly only have bad sustain, if any at all. But their high durability and tankyness makes it seem that they have some/high sustain. Only a few have actual good sustain(mundo darius etc.) but you can counter that with ignite, a 800g cheap into an antitank building item... and morellos. So pretty good counters already ontop of the questionable logic of towers appling gw. And sustain only helps if you have recieved dmg, but didnt die from it. Which is pretty rare these days.

If your team is 3 levels behind its a 99,99% safe loss. Some small tower buffs dont have any impact at this point :D

Well towers are not supposted to do all the work for you, you know :D but they are on the same level as a champion in terms of dmg. So if the enemy is able to towerdive you 1v1 you normaly did something somewhere else wrong. nobody can 1v1 towerdive someone if they both have 100% and are at the same level/items :D

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

"If your team is 3 levels behind its a 99,99% safe loss. Some small tower buffs dont have any impact at this point :D" That's why I suggested the more extreme buffs lol.

And no I'm not suggesting they give free death to any diver, I'm saying they should remain a respectable threat throughout the game; but they're ignore-able by 5 minutes these days.

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

Simple Addition: Currently, the bolts are spaced out evenly. However to make dives a small bit more damaging (non team), I think turrets (the inhibitor and Nexus) should deal 3 bolts in the space of 1, then cool down for a period. It might have a 0.2 AS, but must wait 3 seconds after 3 autos.

Lord Desert1 votes

If I understand you correctly you want something like they did with gromp? Basically a high burst/dps at the start, which back to normal and then the tower dmg ramps up like it does. Right? Or do you suggest something like "burst windows"? Some extra questions: Should these "extra" bolts count towards the ramp up? (turret shots ramp up by 40% after each shot) Is there still a "ramp up" if we have "burst windows"? All 3 bolts towards the same target? Or split up?(aka multishot)

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