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@Riot Meddler - Karma's Direction and Uniqueness

Winterkill··6 votes·1,171 views

I am going into 2017 being more optimistic about Riot Games towards Karma. I know her splash art is being updated which I cannot wait for. Karma just received a new skin that is amazing. Right now I feel inspired to create more communication about Karma and hope, at least, one Riot employee comes in and communicates with us about her. She has received little to no communication about what exactly Riot is having a problem with her. I am going to create several threads breaking down what works on Karma, what can be tweaked a little more to make her more unique, or what just isn't cutting it.

Please feel free to comment on the topic and insert your own ideas and thoughts.

New players and anyone else that really doesn't play Karma that well, will probably say . . . . there is nothing really wrong with her. Despite the overbuffed shield values, is Karma a somewhat balanced champion? Game health wise she is. The problem with Karma is that she has a kit with some amazing things on it, but it just doesn't really fit what she is supposed to be doing. Karma is not unique and suffers from a kit that really has no direction.

Is Karma a tank, support, battlemage, poke champion, or something else entirely? Karma needs a direction and she needs to be more unique. Here is one idea I have that people might like . . . and I would love some feedback. Thank you.

Karma should be a battlemage with abilities that can be used with or on allies. Her niche should be the fact that she has access to three different types of ULTS, but not at the same powerlevel of an actual ULT. She should be able to combo these mantra abilities together. Her mantra system functions a lot like Heimerdinger ULT. That is unique to him and to make it stand out on Karma, it needs to be done in a way that is unique to Karma. Here is my idea.

Remove current passive. Replace current passive with new passive that actually gathers fire and grants Karma a mantra charge. Here it is below:

Gathering Fire: Casting 4 abilities on Karma grants her a mantra charge. Karma can store one mantra charge at level 6 and increase the amount when she levels it up. When Karma levels her mantra up it increases the amount charges she can store as well as the damage it does. Building cooldown reduction on Karma decreases the amount of time Karma has between casting another mantra ability.

Each of Karma's basic abilities, Q-W-E have two different animations when an ability is cast. Casting a Q waves her hands as she shoots it out. Casting a W right after, Karma gracefully raises her leg and she shoots out the ability. Think of the different animations Karma can use when casting basic abilities that also plays on her passive and actually gathers something. Think of movements like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKiYbyJU4iA every time she casts a basic ability.

I would love to hear what you guys think and if you have your own ideas.

Stay frosty,

  • Hiemal.

32 Comments

MisterShameless4 votes

I was planning to make a large post on Karma as well since I've mained her back in season 4 and try to do a break down of what they tried to accomplish with Karma since her rework til now. I hope they address Karma and I do want to try and cover as much as I can from what I've seen and learned. She is getting more attention with her larger fanbase and flamers, I really hope Riot talks to the veterans rather than just the new comers, Karma is hard to understand even to the vets. I do find that her identity is "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" which I personally feel is fitting to Karma as someone who you would trust to lead you into battle, being able to fill what is missing from your group (even if she isn't the best at it). Sure a big problem with this is that it doesn't go along well with her lore, which is her kit is lacking a solid place to maintain a battle mage role from Riot's changes by removing so much from her kit. Having an identity as complex as a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" can feel underwhelming when there are plenty of other champions that can fill the role better than she ever could, however, what she can do is easily change to whats needed by building around her team (she has always needed a team to play around her, whither she is ahead or behind). I plan to expand on this topic in my planned post. She is a leader and as a leader, needs to be resourceful and provide a path for her team to take.

A big issue I have right now is that Riot is destroying her "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" with all the changes by removing her abilities instead of expanding on them. She provided so much more on her release than she does now. I should really get around to making that post because I really dislike Riot's direction with Karma at this time and hope that the newer players start to understand her a bit more.

What are you're thoughts on this?

Winterkill1 votes

I despise the fact they took a pretty good mage and turned her into a support. Karma is a full-fledged support now. I do not like the fact that Karma goes from having probably way too much damage and being a mage early game, to being terrible late game and nothing more than an E and E+R shield bot. I do not like the mass shields and prefer the shield bomb. It is VERY bad champion design to play a character one way and then something else entirely late game. I can build as much AP as I want on Karma and she will not have the same power as any other midlaner. Karma was turned into a shield bot that is almost forced into building the new items that increase the values on her shields . . . . . I just don't like it.

I do not like Karma's E+R and her W+R.I think there are more interesting things they can do with it than what they have now. I would really like to see changes to her mantra system, E+R, and W+R. That's it. Karma's E+R is overshadowing Locket and I just don't think it fits her . . . . the speed boost does . . . . the mass shield is yeah.

SilverSquid2 votes

I despise the fact they took a pretty good mage and turned her into a support.

I don't think they did. Karma is still a capable sololaner. But then again I don't think they know what they are doing with her. Or supposed to be doing.

Karma is a full-fledged support now

It might be worth noting that that's not the way Riot thinks. Karma was created as a mage that can help others. There was no meta back then. There was no idea or intent of someone being a support or not. When reworking her they tried keeping her solo capabilities, but also allow her to be a more effective support. Which, surprisingly, was one of the few things they actually achieved. And today they consider her an Enchanter (hybrid). Again, they mainly think about her as a class, not her role.

It is VERY bad champion design to play a character one way and then something else entirely late game.

So true it hurts. The worst part is that this wasn't even intentional. Yet there are people repeating that she is fine.

I would really like to see changes to her mantra system, E+R, and W+R. That's it.

I don't think RQ is good because it forces Karma into the poke role which contradicts her battlemage identity. RW makes this even worse, because it introduced a disruptor quality, watering her down even more. And the removal of shieldbomb was a plain mistake. As such, I don't like the mantra options at all. Neither isolated, nor how they compare. Mantra holds Karma's kit together and currently it's more confused than ever before.

Oh and one last note; I don't think that a JoaT identity is a good idea in the longterm. Her mantra will always make her flexible and this is good. But being spread too thin is a mistake. This is why a battlemage/enchanter works better than a battlemage/artillerymage/dirsuptor/enchanter/....

MisterShameless1 votes

I actually wanted to try and address the "JoaT" issue as the time where Karma was reworked at a very different time for LoL and like you said, isn't the best for the long term since it blurs where she should stand as a champion when future changes/metas roll out.

She made it to the "unique champions" list on Riot's list of where champions belong, however, the community agreed otherwise, and that definitely hints of possible identity issues from Riot's point-of-view. That also strengthens the "Riot has no direction with Karma" argument.

IxtaliKing2 votes

I don't think RQ is good because it forces Karma into the poke role which contradicts her battlemage identity.

I agree and disagree, the only reason RQ forces Karma into a poke role is because it's her only damage Mantra. If she had more ways to deal damage reliably it would probably end up more of a finisher. At the moment Karma has no real incentive to go all in late game, since she can just RQ nuke > kite around with E+Q > RQ again.

SilverSquid2 votes

My beef with this ability is that its effectiveness is focused around long range. It's easier to hit at max range, than at medium or close range, because of the explosion.

This wouldn't be necessary for it as a finisher. This is contradictory for a battlemage. This opposes W's idea of asking Karma to be as close as possible.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I agree, her RQ definitely has an Artillery design and thats very unfitting for a battle mage.

How would you change the ability to better suit a battle mage? I'm sure we've probably had this conversation before but I forgot xD.

SilverSquid2 votes

How would you change the ability to better suit a battle mage?

The one simple thing my latest two reworks both do; making it a targeted AoE (Lux E). This makes her better at dealing with threats behind cover, but even more so if she is close to them. It makes her a more consistent damage dealer and less of a threat at long ranges. It's all she needs to kill off her artillery identity without necessarily removing the poke possibilities or making her feel unfamiliar.

Of course this allows me to add other utility to the spell, like healing allies it hits, but those are just extras.

I'm sure we've probably had this conversation before but I forgot xD.

Even if we did, I wouldn't care. I don't mind repeating myself to honest inquiry.

IxtaliKing2 votes

The ony simple thing my latest two reworks both do; making it a targeted AoE (Lux E).

Would look kinda like this, I think that would go quite a long way to solving her mid lane issues. Strangely enough I had a dream this morning, near the end of it I saw a long list of reworked champ (most of which haven't been). In that list Karma was there at the bottom, I clicked her and saw they changed her RQ back to a cone which left an AoE on the ground for a few seconds. I read the tool tip saw that the zone increased ally resistances and dealt damage, but they left out her shield bomb... I raged then woke up. Moral of the story, I need to do something better with my time off lol.

Even if we did, I wouldn't care. I don't mind repeating myself to honest inquiry.

<3

SilverSquid2 votes

Would look kinda like this,

Yes it would. That post isn't entirely innocent in pushing me towards this idea.

I mean, I really don't see a good reason for replacing current Q, as Uracle proposed. But it sparked the idea in me. How could Karma profit from having ground targeted AoE, what would be the implications, etc.

Moral of the story, I need to do something better with my time off lol.

But then we would miss you D: !

IxtaliKing1 votes

How could Karma profit from having ground targeted AoE, what would be the implications, etc.

They would probably want to cut the damage a bit, since she'd have improved target selection.

SilverSquid1 votes

I am not quite sure about that. I mean, you can whiff a targeted AoE by casting it too short or too far, which you cant do with current RQ. More clearly speaking: I find Vel'koz Q easier to hit than his E, if the enemy isn't on top of me. Can't say if that's just me though.

But yeah, values would need to be adapted, as always.

IxtaliKing2 votes

That's true, maybe RQ becoming even more of a gamble would be a sufficient trade off for getting back line access.

Warden Karma1 votes

First: Happy new Year ^-^

It's all she needs to kill off her artillery identity without necessarily removing the poke possibilities or making her feel unfamiliar.

I personly think that a targeted ground AOE is easier to hit than a colliding linear skillshot. If I compare Lux E with Karma Q I think it is so much easiert to hit Lux E; Almost always if I aim it at somewhat the position of an enemy I want to hit, I hit it in like 90% of time. So artillery and poke is very close together for me. Even if we change her Q to targeted ground, she will be able to poke, which means she still has an artillery identity. On the other Hand, yes it should be more Battlemage focused (Shouldnt be easier to hit at long Range).

I think her current Q evolved because of this idea: "Oh Karma needs to RE to use her Shieldbomb to Damage enemies from afar and also needs an ally to do so so lets make an ability which is somewhat like that but not dependent on allies or mantra and doesnt push the lane like that. So lets make it with like 1/5 of RE Aoe radius and colliding."

Interestingly, her Q gives her so much "Identity", because its her primary Basic Damaging Ability. So depending on how her Q is changed it will have great impact on her playstyle.

I still miss heavenly Wave :( So often a new/reworked Champion is released it uses sommewhat an idea I had for Karma's Kit. Spirit Fans as a Passive? - Give it Shen Spirit Bond copies spell to allies? - Give it Taric Old Q which deals extra effect on outer Range and heals depending on how much enemies hit? - Give it Camille

So if you want to make her Q like Lux's E; where would be the differences? Wouldnt it just be a copy or a "reverse Cassiopeia Q"? Maybe it would make sense to let it deal more Damage if Karma or other allies are within the AOE.

Like (Lets assume we go with the Twin Dragon Identity): RQ: Karma summons a Twin Dragon to travel to the target Position. It deals 30/60/90/120/150 (+30% AP) magic damage to enemies hit within 125 Range and slows them by 25% for 1,5 Seconds. Enemies passed through are also slowed. If Karma or an allied Champion is within 300 Range of the Twin Dragon, it deals 35/70/105/140/175 (+30% AP) extra Damage.

RQ: Karma summons both Twin Dragons to travel to the targeted Zone, enlarging its AOE to 250 and its slow to 50% also healing allies passed through and within double the AOE by 10/20/30/40/50 (+6%AP) and 2% of their missing Health for each enemy Champion hit.

Alternativly: Before "shooting" the Twin Dragon, it might travel one time around Karma first, hitting all standing within 200 Range of her before travelling to the target position. Its like a "Hey watch out i am "charging" my twin Dragon" and a "I stand close to my allies and cast RQ so I also heal those around me while also dealing some damage there."

Like this:

https://s27.postimg.org/vo7gh149v/A_Karma_Q.jpg

On a side note: What do you think of a Passive like that for Karma?:

Karma's Damage, Shields and heals are increased the closer she is to the enemy (and maybe ally so when closer to the ally she shields more and heals more; would be also interesting if when she is close to an enemy she gains more shield/heal). Maximum effiency Range: ~200 Max Bonus: +10%

Also I am not sure if you read those Ideas i posted. I think they might be worth a look so I leave some links:

This one basically an idea for a Karma with "Orianna Orb"; it was the base of the Idea and I evloved it for the second link. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/b3tcEoFZ-while-karma-might-be-healthy-and-even-strong-especially-in-this-meta?comment=001f

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/uHt2niRd-karma-a-rework-suggestion-idea-sharing-with-twin-dragons-aura-zones-and-2-mantras

I have a strong feel that it will be the best if her W interacts with her Q/E and when Mantrad it creates different forms Mantra'd Q/Es.

Her W could be reworked to interact with her Q/E even on its basic Form. So you can combine Q/W or E/W with or without Mantra

Example: Binds with an ally or enemy for 2 Seconds.

When a bonded enemy, ally or Karma is hit the first time by [Q] or [E] respectively, Spirit Bonds Duration is reset to 2 Seconds and gains an effect Based on the Ability used.

[Q]: Empowers the slow to 50% and deals 35/70/105/140/175 (+35%) plus 50% of [Q]s Damage over its time, rooting the enemy for 1,5 Seconds if the Bond is not broken.

[E]: Increases the Shield Value by 35/70/105/140/175 (+35%). When the Bond is maintained for its duration, it will cleanse all allies bond from CC.

When Mantrad it would created the current RQ cataclysm when interacting with Q and the current AOE shields from RE and a mass cleans maybe. (Since you need like 0,5 seconds at least to cast W and R and E the Mass cleanse wont be that strong as it sounds.)

Hope I could Inspire you :)

SilverSquid2 votes

Happy New Year!!!!

If I compare Lux E with Karma Q I think it is so much easiert to hit Lux E

Because Lux E has a travel time that is so fast that even if you start moving at max range at the right time a good predicted Lux E will always hit. I am hoping for a Karma RQ that is just easier to hit at close range and hard to hit at long range. In the end Lux E is supposed to be a poke spell, while Karma RQ - at least in my iterations - is not. Or at least, at a pretty high cost. Like, you don't get the heals it could apply if you used it on you and your enemy standing in it at the same time.

On the other Hand, yes it should be more Battlemage focused (Shouldnt be easier to hit at long Range).

That's the point. An artillery wants to stay at long range all the time. A spell (or character) most effective at long range has an artillery identity. I want to remove this from Karma. Even if she can poke - which would be okay - she should be more effective at close ranges.

Interestingly, her Q gives her so much "Identity", because its her primary Basic Damaging Ability. So depending on how her Q is changed it will have great impact on her playstyle.

Spot on, again. One of the reasons I tried keeping Q as it is right now. I respect the New Karma fans and try to uphold the good stuff. And on its own, it's a decent damage spell. Fair, rewarding, useful. It's just not that perfect for Karma, but - as I said - I swore to myself that I tried keeping the good from New Karma, and this one is good.

Spirit Fans as a Passive? - Give it Shen Spirit Bond copies spell to allies? - Give it Taric Old Q which deals extra effect on outer Range and heals depending on how much enemies hit? - Give it Camille

Doing the spirit fans is hard. And apparantly it didn't work out that well for Shen either. Spirit Bond is a tough one. Because they had to create a whole kit around that single ability. Pushing it onto Karma would've required other parts to be cut. I am more pissed off about Jayce's lvl6 abilities and Iverns shieldbomb... Camille's Q could've worked for Karma, but only if you wanted it to be selfish. And I think Karma should've utility that - if used on herself - could grant herself great power/defense, but could also used on her allies for protection.

So if you want to make her Q like Lux's E; where would be the differences? Wouldnt it just be a copy or a "reverse Cassiopeia Q"? Maybe it would make sense to let it deal more Damage if Karma or other allies are within the AOE.

I don't. I want her RQ to be a targeted AoE, NOT her Q. The prize for merging Old and New Karma for this is confusing new players. But I don't mind that too much. Karma should require a certain finesse. I'd rather have her steep and deep instead of what she is right now.

Also no, Cassiopeia has something completely different. Because it has no travel time and really short range. It needs a travel time to be more favourable in close corners. And if you think Lux E and Karma RQ would be too similar, then you probably should think that Lissandra Q and Graves R are too similar. Or Braum R and Daisy's smash. They are and aren't. They have similar applications but different uses and animations with some slight extras. It's not bad having "similar" stuff. As long as they have a different role. Like Zed and Azir W (one can AA and it makes all the difference in the world).

Before "shooting" the Twin Dragon, it might travel one time around Karma first, hitting all standing within 200 Range of her before travelling to the target position. Its like a "Hey watch out i am "charging" my twin Dragon" and a "I stand close to my allies and cast RQ so I also heal those around me while also dealing some damage there."

There is some fun stuff you can do with different animations. Like Talyah with her quintuple shot, that has its own rhythm. Very funky. There was also this game a I studied in which a character shot 5 bolts. One in the middle, then behind, left, right and then in front of it, creating a pattern reminiscent of the 5 eyes on a die. The simple change in pattern and the fact that they would hit one after the other made playing around with this ability challenging and entertaining.

So yes, playing around with a swirling dragon might work as an ability. It made me also thing whether you could then tether to this dragon for additional effects. It would make for an interesting kit and a new synergy with skills. Just don't know how to use it or what it could do.

Karma's Damage, Shields and heals are increased the closer she is to the enemy (and maybe ally so when closer to the ally she shields more and heals more; would be also interesting if when she is close to an enemy she gains more shield/heal). Maximum effiency Range: ~200

Not a fan of it, to be honest. She would need an ability allowing her to trigger this passive (high mobility) Other than that it's again, hidding power. And probably not feasible for a support Karma and/or too strong for Karma top.

I have a strong feel that it will be the best if her W interacts with her Q/E and when Mantrad it creates different forms Mantra'd Q/Es.

I would heavily suggest giving W some interaction with the other spells. She needs some proper/interesting synergy in her kit. I am not a fan of that "RW to get a different pseudo RQ" thing yet. It sounds like it has potential, but it also has weird implications and some even more weird power problems. The RRQ solution sounded easier and it was weird as hell :D

Regarding your other reworks; I remember seeing them, but I usually tend to answer them last, because they are huge chunks that I first need to read into. And then read a dozen times more while trying to imagine them properly. And sometimes I run out of time for my daily Karma shenanigans and I forget answering. As for now, it's 5 in the morning, I need to get up in 3h to leave for work. I still want to read them but right now I just need to send what I wrote so far and go to bed. Urgently. But I am confident we will meet again a lot :D. And discuss it eventually. Looking forward yawn to it.

Oh, I will hate myself tomorrow, lol

Warden Karma1 votes

So yes, playing around with a swirling dragon might work as an ability. It made me also thing whether you could then tether to this dragon for additional effects. It would make for an interesting kit and a new synergy with skills. Just don't know how to use it or what it could do.

Thats what my posted Ideas are like. Its definetely worth a thought if Q/E create a Twin Dragon at the ground or target and being able to be targeted by W. It would have a portion of Orianna's feel since you pratically have "Orbs" you can play around with.

Random Idea thats been around for long in my head but doesnt have to do anything with gameplay: Riot should change Traditional Karma's Mantle of decorum (the swirling steel things on her back) to her Old Passive "Icon"; glowing up each time her current Passive is triggered and burning bright when Mantra is activated.

Speaking of: Have you found a suiting Passive for her yet? And will you move the current one (nerfed) to her ult?

Makes me think of an old Passive Suggestion I posted for her: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/de/c/gameplay-balance/uyl6EAbd-idea-a-new-passive-for-karma

SilverSquid1 votes

It would have a portion of Orianna's feel since you pratically have "Orbs" you can play around with.

It's a bit dangerous to not dip into Orianna/Syndra territory here. I once created a champion concept called "Schwer", who would use gravity and alternating spells (similar to my twin dragon karma). However, he turned out too similar to Syndra, so I scrapped him and salvaged the kit for Karma. His character was slightly more interesting than Syndra's "I am a typical villain, muaha".

Riot should change Traditional Karma's Mantle of decorum (the swirling steel things on her back) to her Old Passive "Icon"; glowing up each time her current Passive is triggered and burning bright when Mantra is activated.

If they won't work on her passive I'd rather they do not waste their time making it look better. Even though I could see why people would like that to happen. It's just... I don't ._. I'd rather have things good than shiny, you know what I mean?

Have you found a suiting Passive for her yet? And will you move the current one (nerfed) to her ult?

I have run in circles, lately. Whenever I try coming up with something I adapt it for so long that I just end up recreating an older òne of my suggestions. And any passive that needs to hold the kit together will be very specific to it. So no; I have made a few suggestions, that I am very happy with (Twin Dragon, Battlemage, Fanweapon and double-mantra) and I feel forced to fall back to my educative role about her.

As long as I have no clue what Riot wants to do with her, I will hibernate my suggestions for a bit. Instead I will try to make people realize why she needs change. Then when we all agree, we can get back to specifics.

Yeah, I have seen that. As I said, I see nearly every Karma post, especially yours. This passive is thematically fulfilling and interesting, but visually and conceptually a nightmare. Passives need to hold a kit together in a simple but interesting way. I still try to go for "easy to learn hard to master", even if I don't mind if Karma gets a slightly more complicated one. But if people need to keep track of 2 counters/bars and multiple ability interactions, there seems to be not enough payoff for the complexity this passive requires.

It's a crux. Getting her passive nice and lovely but also simple enough to hit certain design standards is soooooo hard. I can see why Charizard went like "I saw two paths and said fuck it I'm gonna take the escalator". It was the easy and rushed way out, with no substance to the journey or goal. Just a thoughtless, boring solution that works. A shame though.

Warden Karma1 votes

Hey Silver,

I am still very curious what you think about my "Karma-Aura" Rework. ^^ Looks like i will just bomb you with ideas again. I had some very... funny ideas recently, maybe they inspire you to something better :D

#[Passive] Ideas

  1. When Karma is closer than 350 Range to an enemy Champion and she remains within this range for X Seconds, She gains Y and/or this enemy champions suffers Z.

  2. When close to Karma, enemy Champions Health is slowly turned black. The next damaging effect on them will cause it to deal bonus magic damage based on how much health has been blackened. The blackened Health turns normal after that.

  3. Karma slowy ramps up a shield on herself and allies within Range.

  4. After casting an Ability, Karma creates a Zone of Balance around her/or the target?, healing allied units stepping into it while damaging enemy units.

  5. Activating Mantra leaves a Twin Dragon at the position of the Mantrad Ability (Q/E/W). It radiates an Aura. (Can be "collected" to reduce Mantras CD?)

  6. Karma has stances (like Hel in smite), impacting her Abilities.

#[Q] Ideas

  1. Karma summons a Twin Dragon at the target Position, who mimics her Movement, dealing damage to enemies touching. (Mirror Champion anyone?)

  2. Imagine Ahri Q. Explodes on enemy contact, dealing damage, then returning to Karma and healing her and allies passing through by the damage dealt. Might be a bounce Ability (bounces off allies again to the next enemy etc.) Like a ping pong game. takes notes on Mirror Champion

#Other Ideas

When going with the Twin Dragon Identity, and your idea of Ouroboros, then how about Karma can only maintain 1 of the Dragons exept for when she Mantras? And always only the 2 of them. Example: you cast Q which includes Boros and then E which includes Ouro. Boros would disappear. Example 2: You cast RQ, which includes Boros and Ouro, then you cast E: the healing aspect of RQ is removed.

Its a bit like with Orianna's E: You can have your Ball with you giving you extra defenses but when you want to deal ranged damage, you have to give it up. Well or Like Sonas Auras: you can only have one at a time.

It would mean her Kit needs to offer some "maintaining" of her Q/E, like leaving behind a Twin Dragon attached to the target, doing this and that. OR have W auto cast when activated on a twin dragon to maintain it on the field (for example: You cast your Q then press W, the Q Twin dragon remains and does something).

That would mean you either have a slow from Q or the MS from E, exept when you Mantra.

So this whole stuff in the end might be looking like that:

[Passive]

Karma is the Medium of Ionias Twin Dragons, Boros and Ouro. She can only have either Boros or Ouro activ for her basic abilities; her Mantra allows her to manifest both in a single spell. Karma cannot have multiple Boros' oder Ouro's.

Enemies interacting with Boros are Damaged and slowed. Allies interacting with Ouro are shielded and sped up.

Make them going in spirals, leaving a trail, granting a buff/debuff or whatever you want.

Oh well, I guess I milled you again with my crap Ideas ^^'

"I saw two paths and said fuck it I'm gonna take the escalator".

XD; reminds me of the new Warwick Teaser. You know what they say... Karma always catches up to you.

SilverSquid1 votes

Jinx flying on a wheelchair, you WERE serious about that bombardement, lol.

When Karma is closer than 350 Range to an enemy Champion and she remains within this range for X Seconds, She gains Y and/or this enemy champions suffers Z.

Something her kit ought to revolve around, but not very specific. Also this needs a good indicator, that is worth the clutter.

When close to Karma, enemy Champions Health is slowly turned black. The next damaging effect on them will cause it to deal bonus magic damage based on how much health has been blackened. The blackened Health turns normal after that.

This can have serious implications on clarity. The healthbars have a color for a reason ^^'. Also I am not sure if you should punish "closeness" to a mage in general. It punishes many champions for doing what they do anyways.

Karma slowy ramps up a shield on herself and allies within Range.

Ugh. Dunno. Like Malphite? It's anti-poke, I guess. And kind of imbalanced, because it just increases your team's power for doing nothing.

After casting an Ability, Karma creates a Zone of Balance around her/or the target?, healing allied units stepping into it while damaging enemy units.

That could work nicely. Or at least I fail to see how it couldn't. Remember that one!

Activating Mantra leaves a Twin Dragon at the position of the Mantrad Ability (Q/E/W). It radiates an Aura. (Can be "collected" to reduce Mantras CD?)

Similar to Zac's blobs? There sure could be something more interestingly done other than just CDR. Could work or couldn't work, depends a bit on the kit it's in.

Karma has stances (like Hel in smite), impacting her Abilities.

....ooooor like my Twin Dragon Karma?^^

Karma summons a Twin Dragon at the target Position, who mimics her Movement, dealing damage to enemies touching. (Mirror Champion anyone?)

I once created a mirror champion (Rorim.... yeah, I know it's stupid, shut up^^), that could create a clone like Zed, that would walk in opposite directions and damage enemies it passed through. It was a little bit awkward, but in the end it kinda worked. Made it a very mobile tank tho.

This would feel like walking your dog, btw. Could work interestingly with W. But W would already deal the damage. The dragon could do something else, I guess, but it would probably start feeling too similar to Shen's sword.

Imagine Ahri Q

Or Ekko Q. Or Talon, or Sivir or Gnar.... Yeah, those abilities are a plenty. Of course it would work best with Karma'd duality aspect if it healed allied champions on the return and also Karma if she hit an enemy champion. I am just worried about the influx of those abilities^^

Not saying I don't like it! Because I do.

When going with the Twin Dragon Identity, and your idea of Ouroboros, then how about Karma can only maintain 1 of the Dragons exept for when she Mantras?

Could be used to nerf some of her power. In my kit I have never seen the need to complicate things that way. It would be a feasible lever tho.

Make them going in spirals, leaving a trail, granting a buff/debuff or whatever you want.

Yeah this would be.... an awesome dragon tamer champion. Very far removed from what Karma was and is tho. I would love to playtest it, but presenting this as Karma would piss off more people than it would entertain, I reckon.

Oh well, I guess I milled you again with my crap Ideas ^^'

Don't you dare say such a thing!

I mean, personally, I would enjoy it if you could sometimes slow down a bit, but I would never want this stream of ideas to ever stop. Ideas are a valuable thing, my friend! It's what books are made of, where dreams come from and what makes empires fall.

You know what they say... Karma always catches up to you.

I wish Riot would let her. I can see she wants to ^^'

Warden Karma1 votes

I didnt even write them all lol :D I am like in URF mode ^^

Also I might store all ideas on a paper with comments etc. so we can dig out the best of them when Riot finally says: We are looking into reworking Karma.

Just for amusement I noticed some time ago that new Karma's Lore can be read as a prophecy. Just thought it might amuse you a bit so you can have a little little pause between my Bombardment ;)

Original Story of New Karma

The Prophecy (translation of its actual meaning)

Karma once lived a tranquil life in a small Ionian village. Led by elder monks, the villagers practiced a tradition of benevolent magic and pacifism. Known for her powerful connection to the spiritual realm and beloved as a just mediator amongst her people, Karma embraced these traditions as an essential aspect of the enlightenment sought by all Ionians.

There was a small dedicated Playerbase with diehards.

Her inner peace was tested when the armies of Noxus invaded Ionia. While the village's elder monks insisted their peaceful ways would spare them from violence, Karma had heard enough tales of Noxian cruelty to openly question the elders' wisdom. Stern and unmoving, they told her to trust in tradition. When the invaders marched on the village, the elder monks rode out to negotiate a bloodless end to the battle. The Noxian general was offended by their show of weakness and slaughtered the monks himself as he ordered his soldiers to strike the village.

But then everything changed when the fire nation attacked when Riot reworked her: Her Community became split.

As the Noxians advanced, the villagers prepared to accept death, bound to their peaceful vows. But Karma would not accept death and instead saw another way: sacrificing a single life to spare many others. To save her people, she drew upon the power within and summoned the full force of her will. A burst of Inner spirit fire emerged from her body and spiraled towards the Noxian general. The flame took the form of twin dragons, the symbol of Ionia itself. It was the first time Karma had ever used her powers to harm instead of protect, and neither she nor the villagers had ever seen anything like it. When the magic subsided, the general had fallen before her and his soldiers had scattered. The opposing forces surrendered to Karma's strength, leaving her people, and their traditions, untouched.

The Old Fanbase more and more accepted reworked Karma or gave up that she will become what she was once. But Karma would not accept Death. So the Diehards fought with Riot. Then a chosen one will step up to Riot and aid to a Karma rework worthy of its Name.

While the war raged on, Karma became a formidable leader of the Ionian resistance, but the conflict did not end when Noxus' armies fled the Ionian shores. Ionia became divided between the resistance fighters who craved vengeance and the monks who demanded a return to spiritual tradition. Karma saw a third path, one that combined the strength Ionia found in war with the peaceful traditions the nation still held dear. She now seeks to return her ravaged land to an enduring peace.

However the War between the chosen one (the Head of our Resistance), Karma's Playerbase and Riot will last a long time. Especially since the Playerbase is extremely split. But The chosen one will find another way in between: one that will stay true to the traditional Karma and respecting the New One as well.

Hope you had some fun with it ^^ Prepare for a bunch of Ideas though :)

EDIT: I think if theres a chosen one its very likely you ^^ (I know there are a lot who fought for Karma and still do like Hiemal, KingCold, Shameless and me and many many other, but you seem to be the most successfull)

EDIT 2: Random unusefull knowledge: On Level 6 Karma has 66.6 Attack Damage.

SilverSquid1 votes

Heh. I can see the parallels. And I can only hope that we would ever be as successful as calling this story ours.

I think if theres a chosen one its very likely you ^^ (I know there are a lot who fought for Karma and still do like Hiemal, KingCold, Shameless and me and many many other, but you seem to be the most successfull)

Chosen one. Bah. Destiny doesn't choose you, you choose your destiny. Every single day. I would love to be the one riding on a wave of success to a better and shiny Karma. A wave created by people as simple as me and dear to my heart. But chosen one implies this wouldn't be a community effort, which it is. Casting this magical hadouken to fall my enemy will never happen. It's a magical story crafted in the forges of despair. A fairytale.

The truth is, we need to work on this every day, instead of hoping for a magical unleash once in our lifetime that solves all our problems. First we sharpen our minds, then we call others to join us and soon we will be a force Riot can't ignore anymore. Their misstreatment of Karma just fueled our cause, since they the Karma community grow even more so and people finally understand her issues. Our disciples multiply every day, my friend. And soon Riot will understand.

Random unusefull knowledge: On Level 6 Karma has 66.6 Attack Damage.

I will eat my mothers selfmade christmas socks if this wasn't done on purpose by someone.

King Geffy1 votes

{quoted}

I despise the fact they took a pretty good mage and turned her into a support. Karma is a full-fledged support now. I do not like the fact that Karma goes from having probably way too much damage and being a mage early game, to being terrible late game and nothing more than an E and E+R shield bot. I do not like the mass shields and prefer the shield bomb. It is VERY bad champion design to play a character one way and then something else entirely late game. I can build as much AP as I want on Karma and she will not have the same power as any other midlaner. Karma was turned into a shield bot that is almost forced into building the new items that increase the values on her shields . . . . . I just don't like it.

I do not like Karma's E+R and her W+R.I think there are more interesting things they can do with it than what they have now. I would really like to see changes to her mantra system, E+R, and W+R. That's it. Karma's E+R is overshadowing Locket and I just don't think it fits her . . . . the speed boost does . . . . the mass shield is yeah.

Karma is honestly a champion I wanna buy and after seeing what she can do to what you said made me think "What things can Karma do besides just be a shield and movement boost bot. I'm terribly sorry that Karma got worked into a support and honestly as much as I love Riot, they need to work hard the reworks because it can be good rarely (Example Ryze and Poppy) but they can also be terrible (Taric and all the assassins in the rework). Karma is honestly a champion I would want to have and practice as a support, top laner, and mid lane but take note like maining, but I mostly just have picks I would take with me like for example I take Ryze, Twisted Fate, and Kassadin Mid but I'm seriously wanting to expand on my mid laners and more. Thank you for talking about Karma and hopefully I wish they don't do anything terrible on her as well as others.

Karma : Never give up, never falter, and finally never go run it down mid like an idiot

Winterkill1 votes

I would love to read your post when it is up :D

MisterShameless2 votes

Might be posted around after new years (in a week), so I avoid posting it when Rioters might be off on holidays and they also tend not to be on the forums during weekends, so that's gonna be a while before it gets posted.

MisterShameless1 votes

I might make the post this Monday, wasn't considering it since you made a couple of posts for Karma this week lol Not sure if anything I'll say will contribute, but I'll give it a go :P Seems like most of the Rioters are back, hopefully they'll all be back next week.

SilverSquid3 votes

Loving the positivity.

I am not good with animations&visuals, so I will only comment on gameplay.

Gathering Fire: Casting 4 abilities on Karma grants her a mantra charge. Karma can store one mantra charge at level 6 and increase the amount when she levels it up. When Karma levels her mantra up it increases the amount charges she can store as well as the damage it does. Building cooldown reduction on Karma decreases the amount of time Karma has between casting another mantra ability.

If we do some kind of amunition system (or make it akin to what Annie uses), then I don't get why you would want CDR to affect how often mantra can be cast.... it automatically does. More CDR means more spells cast means mantra recharges faster? Just increasing the stacks to 2 at lvl6 and then adressing specifically what the spells do at what level would already do the trick.

Depends a lot on what you want her to do with mantra, tho.

Winterkill1 votes

I did it because I didn't want her to be able to quickly cast it right after casting one. She should have to work for it . . . . unless I am wrong.

I guess. Anything that makes her gameplay different is a welcome addition. I just don't want to be forced to play her as a shield bot anymore.

SilverSquid1 votes

If she only gets charges for casting (or hitting?) spells, she has to work for it. Currently, in some situations, Karma can already mantra every use of one basic ability. With this change she would only be able to cast 2 mantras at once, but then wait way longer than today to regain it, provided you don't let mantra'd abilities charge her passive. But even then you need at least one full spell rotation.

Winterkill1 votes

hm. maybe.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Each of Karma's basic abilities, Q-W-E have two different animations when an ability is cast. Casting a Q waves her hands as she shoots it out. Casting a W right after, Karma gracefully raises her leg and she shoots out the ability. Think of the different animations Karma can use when casting basic abilities that also plays on her passive and actually gathers something.

You have no idea how much I love the sound of that, +1. Movements like the ones in that video would suit Karma perfectly.

SchmidttyGames2 votes

As a Support Main, I find Karma to be one of the strongest and most versatile weapons in my arsenal. She has (in my opinion) the best shield in League with her Mantra-E, and can actually hit someone with some steak on it at any point in the game. She scales well, and when built to heal/shield, her late game R/E is a game changer.

I, personally, think that she's in a good place for the Support Role. But I can understand how her kit would be lacking in other roles.

Dominus Eli6 votes

Well the thing is she wasnt meant to be a support main but a mage main secondary support. I as a Karma main, would prefer her primarily as a mage.

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