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Modernizing Cho'Gath's Kit

Void Kaiju··13 votes·3,015 views

#Foreword

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

If you don't want to read this bit: Just scroll down if all you want to see is the kit. It'll be pretty obvious where you should stop scrolling :)

A little while ago I posted a discussion on Story, Art, & Sound talking about Cho'Gath and his lack of place in the lore. In it I used a little excerpt from the lore for a fan vgu I've been working on. Here is where I am at for a more modern kit.

Before I begin, let me state that I know many people are averse to change. Many people love the current Cho'Gath, myself included. But he's a** T1 VGU candidate and change is inevitable.** We can't close our eyes and just wish it away. It will come, and the more information we put out there to influence and inspire the creative minds at Riot the more of the parts of Cho'Gath we love that may survive. That aside,I'm sure everyone can think of ways in which his character fantasy and thematic could be pushed to its limits to give us the truly frightening, ADC munching, spiteful void kaiju monstrosity we all deserve. And there are many bits of his kit (and many more with his visuals) that could do with some modernization. I'll be throwing together some stuff for his visuals over the next little while but without further ado, let's talk a draft kit.

##Draft Kit Number 3 (4?)

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

Prior to making this version, I have been running iterations of this kit through critique from some of our beautiful mods on the** C&C discord server**, as well as past some of the minds on the** R/Chogathmains discord.** It's been quite the process, and none of these ideas simply came out of the blue. I plan to keep putting in work on the kit (IF NECESSARY, I feel it's approaching being finalized at this point), and when I do I will be putting updates on one of those two discords in order to get peoples' thoughts.

As much as I would love to keep putting updates on the boards for people to look at, it would get tedious pretty quickly and putting these threads together is a mountain of work compared to just posting an image or a google doc on a Discord.

A shift in theme

My version of Cho'Gath differs somewhat from his current self. I won't go into lore, or his personality, or any of that stuff, just his physical characteristics that will influence this kit heavily. 1. He is huge. A titan, a monster straight out of the nightmares of the Targonians themselves. His nasty intelligence compounds this danger.

2. He still devours things to grow. Biomass is his shit, yo.

**3. **He is a massive nuclear reactor of void energy. He's got so much of it that he can't keep it perfectly contained, the world around him is gradually twisted and contaminated as he passes through it. His attacks stem not from the void itself, but from channeling his massive internal well of power. The things he has consumed become his, and that includes the magics of the void.

**4. **The above traits essentially make him a walking, intelligent doomsday weapon. When you see this massive, twisted monstrosity running down lane spilling void energies into the world around it, your first instinct should be to get the hell out of his way. (unless he's just tilted and running it down mid....)

#Cho'Gath: The Great Devourer

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

  • Role: Specialist
  • Damage Type: Magic Damage
  • Primary Resource: Mana

##The Juicy Numbers (For all you numbers lovin' folks)

  • |Base Attack Range|: 125 units
  • |Attack Damage|: 75- 175
  • |Attack Speed|: 0.5 - 0.78
  • |Mana|: 272 - 952
  • |Mana Regeneration per 5 seconds|: 9 - 22.1
  • |Health|: 600 - 1900
  • |Health Regeneration per 5 seconds|: 12-20.5
  • |Armor|: 40 - 100
  • |Magic Resist|: 32.1 - 53.4
  • |Movement Speed|: 345

Numbers TL,DR: Base attack range, Mana, Magic Resist, and Movement speed all pretty much unchanged. Health and Health Regen all have some power shifted from level 18 to level 1. He starts with more but gets less upon leveling up. His base attack damage is now best-in-class, and was increased pretty steeply. He will hit like a train, but part of this power is counteracted by... His base attack speed has been cut pretty hard. Possibly down to the lowest of any melee. (Graves holds the title of lowest in the game. He can keep it.) I gave him a little nudge to his armor to help him with his slower lane trades. Base armor has been upped at all levels (by 3). His mana regeneration has gone up a decent chunk. I've removed his ability to gain mana back from minions so this will stop him from never having mana. (Yes. The TL,DR is longer than the actual numbers. Hush, you). And now for the even-more-juicy actual kit

#Passive: The World Trembles/Void Reactor

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

##The World Trembles: Cho’Gath’s basic attacks are slow but devastating. He has high base AD but low attack speed. Every third attack cleaves in an area in front of him, dealing (70% AP)+ 6-9% (+0.5% per stack of Feast) Max HP additional magic damage, and applying a 50% slow to units struck that decays over 1.5 seconds. This third auto deals 200% damage to turrets.

##Void Reactor: Casting spells, basic attacking and taking damage grant Cho'Gath Void Energy. While fully charged, Cho'Gath’s next cleave is empowered, damaging in an increased area, with damage increased to _(70% AP) +12%-15% (+1% per stack of feast) _ Max HP additional magic damage. This attack consumes all Void Energy. Cleave Range: 250 units long (starting at the edge of Cho'Gath's hitbox). Width increases with _Feast _ stacks

  1. Empowered Cleave Range: 550 units long (from the edge of Cho'Gath's hitbox.) Width increases with Feast stacks. https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png Notes on Passive: 1. Void Reactor charge behaves like an energized attack (Rapid Firecannon, Fleet Footwork, etc.), but only charges while he is in combat.

2. This is intended to replace his current passive, which either does nothing vs strong poke or makes him too powerful to deal with due to his sustain. Tying it to damage gives space for a defensive investment in his kit, making his skill max order more flexible, and removes the "always max e" thing he has going on currently.

3. It seemed like a natural fit for the sustained damage that keeps Cho'Gath threatening on the frontlines, whilst clearing up room to do something else with his E. He now has some access to mana-free poke that allows him to both harass regularly and soften up waves to compensate for his drop in attack speed.

4. With 70% ap scaling, it also gives AP Cho'Gath something a little more threatening when he gets up close and personal, and makes a hybrid ap/tank build more viable rather than feeling obligated to go tank OR ap.

#Q: Iconoclasm

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

Cho'Gath launches a blast of void magic to the target location, dealing 30-80 (+15% AP) magic damage to targets it passes through. After a brief delay the blast implodes at the target location, pulling enemies struck towards the center, dealing 60-280 (+90% AP) magic damage and **slowing **units struck by 65% for 1 second. If cast while Venting, Destroyer contaminates the ground it passes over for 3 seconds, dealing Vent Corruption’s damage to enemies standing on it. Cost: 60 Mana at all ranks. Cooldown: 10.5/10/9.5/9/8.5 seconds. Effect Radius: 125-175 based on Feast stacks. (Caps at 8 stacks) Cast Range:: 1000 units from the edge of Cho'Gath's hitbox. https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png Notes on Q: Iconoclasm: **1. **I felt it was important to maintain his disruptor status, and keep the delay on the real punch of this spell. Just wanted to make it a little more interesting.

**2. ** The delay on this spell's explosion is impacted by how far Cho'Gath decides to shoot it, as it must reach its destination before it can start to implode.

3. Having it be a pull to center instead of a knockup does mean he loses out on about half a second of air time (ish) from the knockup. But having it bunch enemies together really synergizes with his desire to be slamming as many people as possible with his AoE damage, and better rewards landing a good Q on multiple targets.

4. you may have noticed the "if cast while venting" bit. We'll get to that soon.

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/5/3/3/7/0/1533703724273449.gif?1533703735

(Hopefully that works. A bit of inspiration for what it might do)

#W: Raze

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

After a very brief delay, Cho'Gath unleashes a pulse of corrupting energy in an expanding cone in front of him for 1.5 seconds. Cho’Gath is able to move during this channel but he cannot change its direction. Enemies caught in the area are silenced and take 100-350 (+70% AP) magic damage over the duration. With at Least one stack of Feast: At the end of the channel Cho’Gath unleashes a shockwave, instantly dealing 40% (+5% per stack of Feast) of the channel’s damage and silencing enemies struck for one second. Cost: 70/80/90/100/110 Mana Cooldown: 13/12/11/10/9 Angle: 75° to 95° over the course of the channel. Shockwave Angle: 100° Range: 700 Units from the edge of Cho'Gath's hitbox.

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png Notes on W: Raze: 1. The silence is a CRUCIAL part of Cho'Gath's kit. I couldn't get rid of it. But its current instant nature has little hope of sticking around in a rework.

**2. **With this, Cho'Gath can shut down a priority target for a pretty solid length of time, and deal a good chunk of damage. The cost is that he needs to commit to channelling it instead of getting the free trades he currently does. (I've tried to give him enough flexibility in trades to compensate for that though!)

3. Cho'Gath charging forward, screaming caustic energy at his enemies that blows them apart is a super cool image and you know it. Also synergizes super well with his Q for some POTENT lockdown. And gives AP cho a nasty way to bring the hurt down on any would-be divers.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/827/475/201.gif

E: Vent Corruption

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

##Passive: Cho'Gath restores 4.5 - 7 percent of his Maximum HP over 4 seconds when he reaches 100 stacks of Void Energy.

##Active: Cho’Gath’s armor opens up, venting the hazardous void energy contained within for 4 seconds. Cho’Gath gains 10-20% movement speed whilst Venting. Enemy units near a venting Cho’Gath take 30-110 (+10% AP) Magic Damage per second, increased by 25% per tick, up to 100% additional damage.

  • Killing a unit with Feast automatically activates Vent Corruption, regardless of cooldown. if Vent Corruption was off cooldown, it is put on a 7 second cooldown. Cost: 40 mana Cooldown: 17/16/15/14/13 seconds. Tick Rate: Once per 0.5 seconds. ** Effect Radius:** 400 units from the edge of Cho'Gath's hitbox. (No sunfire nonsense where it doesn't even reach his basic attack range.) https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png Notes on E: Vent Corruption: 1. By putting his sustain on a spell, it becomes something Cho'Gath has to opt in to. This is his defensive move. It gives him speed to engage and to run away, and increased sustain as he fights and lets out some of the void energy. Much easier to balance this way and tightens up his identity as a scaling monstrosity.

2. The active gives him some much-needed mobility in a more subtle way, and enables him to do some WORK if he manages to get into the enemy team during a fight. Helps to compensate for the lower uptime of his passive basic attacks whilst also making sure he sticks to his target and stays charged up to hit them hard.

3. Maybe now righteous glory won't be the thing to get every single time.

4. By activating on ult, it makes defending your carry from him that much more crucial. When he succeeds he's able to do more than just laugh at the fact he ate somebody, you can't just rest knowing his true damage nuke is on cooldown.

5. The ramp up also rewards him for sticking to a fight rather than just timidly going for little hits (something which current Cho'Gath has to do more than I would like. He's a giant monster, he shouldn't be sitting back in lane looking for a single minion and maybe a little hit of damage.)

https://media.giphy.com/media/uQTuazKmgNCE/giphy.gif

#R: Feast

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png

Cho’Gath devours the target unit, dealing 250/375/500 (+12% Bonus HP) (+50% AP) True Damage. Against non champions, this spell’s base damage is increased to 1000. -If Feast kills its target, Cho’Gath permanently gains a stack of_ Feast_, increasing in size and increasing his health by 70/110/150. Cho’Gath can only obtain 6 stacks from minions/monsters. -As Cho’Gath grows, the range of his basic attacks and the width of his passive cleave is increased.
-Cho’Gath’s maximum size should be at least 50% larger than currently, perhaps with diminishing returns of growth beyond that instead of a maximum. Cost: 100 Mana Cooldown: 65 Seconds Range: 175 Units from the edge of Cho'Gath's hitbox.

https://i.imgur.com/G3fmEjC.png Notes on R: Feast: 1. You didn't honestly think there was any chance I could get rid of this spell, did you? It's his big thing.

2. Dinked the base damage at max rank by about 150, upped the scaling slightly and reduced the cooldown. A good, efficient Cho'Gath can stack faster and make up for the lowered damage pretty quickly. You'll need to put in work for your one-shots, dammit.

3. Feast makes him stronger in MANY more ways than it does currently. All of his spell ranges now increase as his size does, his Q and W gain additional power as he does, as well as his passive scaling in many of the same ways his current E does.

4. HE WILL NEED TO BE MORE BIG. BIGGER THAN BIG. He's got the growing into a giant monster thing on lock, but he could just be doing it to a much greater degree than he is currently. .

https://orig00.deviantart.net/209d/f/2013/346/4/8/pacific_knifehead_vs_gipsy_3_by_xxsederapxx-d6xql9y.gif

#Conclusion

Here is it. This is the product of a pretty large amount of work and thinking and I hope it shows. I'd love to hear your feedback, suggestions, (praise?) Did i prioritize parts of Cho'Gath that you wouldn't? What would you like to see from his new kit when Riot eventually touches him? Big thanks go out to a bunch of people but The Djinn from C&C and Slaking from r/Chogathmains in particular.

24 Comments

NotaRobot10063 votes

That sounds absolutely terrifying.

I love it.

Void Kaiju1 votes

Thanks! I'm glad to hear it

OoTriloDiveroO2 votes

dude, your idea is beautiful, I really like the mechanics of the champion and I hope that the Riot games will appreciate and make a full-fledged rework. By the way, you inspired me to wish your own reworks,thank you very much and care for you in the future=3 [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Yes, I repeat again, the idea is magnificent![zombie-nunu-hearts]

Void Kaiju1 votes

<3 Thank you very much.

nasu0103 votes

as a monster main i think you captured the identity of cho better than riot did his givn kit was usable but kinda fell off after his rework and just made him broken and qued for a nerf this on the other hand is a masterpiece.

id like for you to check out my gallery (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Eal50gAL-nasu-010-concepts-gallery) in your free time give me some feed back on my champion concepts and any pointers are appreciated

Void Kaiju1 votes

Haha im glad you think I did such a good job. I'm not sure how balanced this kit would actually be on live so I'll withhold my judgement on whether or not I've made him less broken than his last update did. :P

I'll take a look through when I get home from work at the end of the day.

OoTriloDiveroO3 votes

I have an idea about new skin for Cho'gath.

kaiju Cho'gath=333

Void Kaiju1 votes

They should rework deep-sea Cho'Gath into it when they finally get around to him

The Goodest Boy1 votes

if it had the same themeing as giant enemy crabgot... holy shit would that be cool

The Goodest Boy3 votes

Good lord this is in depth. I want to commend you for the massive amount of time and effort this looks like it took.

It's refreshing to see a concept on the boards that has actual, genuine design philosophies and theory crafting behind it. I like being able to see the decisions you made and then read why you made them. I'm gonna give my opinion on a few things, because I think this is a really well put together concept. This is gonna be long, sorry

  • Modernization: how well did you update cho'gaths character for a more modern League?

Theme: Especially combined with the gifs, his themeing as a massive, all-consuming void titan is excellent. I think the W is my personal favorite thematic improvement. Cho'gaths scream was always an interesting ability to me because it was so simple but matched his character so well. Your improvements to W give him this feeling of a lumbering, giant monster that's slowly burning down everything in his path.

**Mechanics/Counterplay:**The mechanical improvements are overall quite good. I think the W specifically is much better in terms of Counterplay. An instant cast, massive aoe silence was never fun for anyone. With your Raze ability, it's now more so "you're going to be silenced for a long ass time IF you stand in his way for the whole channel."

I like what you've done with his passive and E a lot. Giving him a baseline autoattack cleave really enforces cho'gaths unique identity as one of leagues only "AP Bruisers"

Tying his sustain to an ability was a much-needed and well done change. It has obvious windows of power (when he reaches max void energy, he WILL heal. Avoid him or don't.) Also, his E active is just really really cool. The concept of venting void energy sounds awesome! I can already imagine dark-star chogath venting galactic star dust.

The only thing I feel might still need a change is his ultimate. Cho'gaths ultimate is really the source of 90% of player frustration towards the champ. Getting legitimately one-shot by instant-cast true damage flying out of an unkillable tank is the epitome of no-fun. I think it's vital for Cho to keep his feast, but I think it needs SOMETHING to give the damage some sort of counterplay.

(My idea is to perhaps have the Feast do base magic damage to champions instead of true, but turn it into true damage if he does X requirement. Perhaps it becomes true damage if he Feasts them while they're taking damage from his E active. Just a suggestion!)

In conclusion: amazing concept! This was an interesting and enjoyable read. If you don't feel like reading this wall of text, I'll add a tl;dr later but ive got some stuff to do currently.

Have a nice day!

Void Kaiju2 votes

Wow, I really appreciate the in-depth comment, thanks!

With regards to the ultimate, it is Cho'Gaths defining spell. Without it he just wouldn't be.... Him. Changing it to magic damage would make it an extremely unreliable execute, which would make stacking his ult unnecessarily difficult, which probably wouldn't be the best idea given that I've moved so much power into his feast stacks.

I do agree that his ultimate is a source of frustration. Getting oneshotted is not fun for anybody, and although it's a high point for Cho it isn't where I have the most fun on him either. I chose to cut back on the base damage pretty heavily at later ranks where it tends to become a problem (on live, his rank 3 ult does a whopping 650 base damage to champions. Very easy to bring that up to 1000!)

Gating it to his e would make it a significantly less threatening spell, as his e has a lot of downtime and actually wants him to ult somebody to extend its duration. He has lost some of his ability to chip a target down into feast range, and has reduced access to oneshots now which I hope will be enough.

If this kit were ever actually tested, and concerns like yours kept coming in, a change I would consider would be to up the base damage but remove the health scaling entirely. Maybe bring up the ap scaling by 15 to 20 percent to compensate.

One change I made may also have inadvertently added some of the counterplay you want. By making him get bigger, he becomes a lot easier to tag with crowd control and thus a lot easier to peel off of your ADC. If the massive thing that cannot dodge your crowd control reaches your backline, I think losing one of them is a fair price to pay. (On that note though, of him being big became too much of a weakness I would probably consider giving him extra tenacity during his e.)

The Goodest Boy1 votes

Thank you for actually responding to the text wall :)

I actually really enjoyed typing out a long ass response to your post because of its in-depthness and overall solid concept work. I really wish more concepts were like yours!

Also, I'm sure there are a few ways you could go about fixing the ultimate's bursting ability, and it's your champion concept so I won't go suggesting shit at you, but; seeing as the goal is to execute someone perhaps you could make it an actual execute. like evelyns perhaps? you know, "if they're above 40% max HP it deals 250 or whatever, and if they're below that it deals 400." that removes his ability to chunk squishies for half their HP even when he isn't executing them.

In the end, i love your concept :) can't wait to see more stuff

Mrthomas201212 votes

I love it [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Void Kaiju1 votes

Thank you

ModThe Djinn2 votes

So you know in general I think you did some interesting things here. I'm not sure it captures what I think of Cho'Gath as (it's a bit more Pacific Rim than my image of him), but that's a minor quibble.

Here are my remaining non-minor quibbles:

  • Your vent damage needs to drop considerably, I think -- 600 base damage in a 400 range AoE is a bit high for a basic (and it's actually higher by a lot, as it's 75 + 112 + 300 per second for 3 seconds, or 1087 + 72.5%AP), especially on that low a cooldown, and especially with the ability to build CDR, Feast, and then vent almost immediately as that vent expires.

  • I don't think his Q needs 1000 range AND to spread venting damage, especially as he now has a speed buff, a slow, and a pull+slow to ensure targets stay in range. It's a strong enough spell without that addition, and it simply adds to this kit's problem of spreading too much damage everywhere for free.

  • I'm concerned that Raze's damage is too high. If you hit 12 stacks it's a 700 + 140% AP AoE nuke, and that's adding to the Venting issues above. Your Cho'Gath is too good at holding people near him and moving at them to have this much free massive AoE damage, especially as Vent meaning his Rylai's synergy is enormous.

  • 50% more Cho'Gath than current worries me. I suspect he'll start to have/cause major pathing issues, and that this is part of the reason they limited his size to what it is now despite wanting to make it bigger. I'd settle for maybe 20% bigger, but I'm not sure it has to go more.

  • You flatly buffed Feast's damage and it's cooldown, and gave it a bonus effect of triggering vent, which is huge. Why? You injected a LOT more power and Feast-related synergy into the rest of his kit, and this ability did not need buffs in addition.

Void Kaiju1 votes

Vents damage is definitely too high. I'll probably increase the damage ramp to over 3 ticks instead of two, and reduce the base to maybe 110 at max rank.

When it comes to the q, only one of those things is new to his kit. He actually has fewer slows built into this kit than his current live one has (due to his e being three 500 range slows. He's got a little bit less cc than on live). Having it spread the venting damage was a way to help him keep it stacked if he's landing spells, it makes him more of an engage threat since his new w locks him out of doing a chunk of damage. And his sustained aoe damage is down compared to live if he's not keeping the vent damage flowing (once I fix the numbers on vent). I increased the range to give more options, like I said in the post the delay on the q implosion starts when it reaches the destination, giving you more time to react of he's trying to make a pick on you from maximum range.

I wanted to put some restrictions on cho'gaths movement during Raze, but every time I did it just felt like it rendered it unnecessarily difficult to use. I plan to find a way to do it, maybe ornn w style because I don't want him to just be pulling a Camille and following somebody back and forth with it 12acks is pretty far into the game (or somebody has been feeding hard), so I'm not certain how much of an issue that scaling is. I should probably put a cap on it and/or decrease the amount per stack to 2.5 or 3 percent.

MORE CHO'GATH!!! My theoretical kit is not constrained by existing technology since it will never exist and thus never be able to be tested to see how unit collision works with it so I decided to go big or go home. It may be that at a certain point the increase of size adds more of a disadvantage than the health it provides so they had to put a cutoff on it.

For the r, with the 2 percent increased scaling it would take him 1250 bonus hp just to make up for the base damage that I cut from it at rank 3. And significantly more for the damage to actually be increased compared to the values it has on live. I cut 150 base damage off of rank 3 Feast. I also decreased the health gained per stack by 10 at all ranks. I did reduce the cooldown to compensate and help him scale better. His early game as a whole is significantly weaker due to his lessened lane sustain, lowered access to cheap spammable poke, and due to the bulk of his power being locked behind Feast scaling. The spell itself has lost much of its oneshot potential early in exchange for being able to stack faster. I think to exceed current live values at rank 3 he needs to have somewhere in the vicinity of 7500 bonus HP? It would only be increased in the most extreme cases. (Amplified by the fact he gets slightly less hp per stack)

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Vents damage is definitely too high. I'll probably increase the damage ramp to over 3 ticks instead of two, and reduce the base to maybe 110 at max rank.

I frankly think even this is probably too much. We'd still be talking an easy 800+ damage in a huge team-wide AoE that can be up two or three times in a fight for several seconds.

12acks is pretty far into the game (or somebody has been feeding hard), so I'm not certain how much of an issue that scaling is. I should probably put a cap on it and/or decrease the amount per stack to 2.5 or 3 percent.

I'd put a reasonable cap on it, and consider either lowering the base damage or lowering the base scaling increase. I don't like how quickly it approaches double an already sizeable nuke.

I cut 150 base damage off of rank 3 Feast. I also decreased the health gained per stack by 10 at all ranks.

You did cut base damage off of it. Reading fail on my part!

X1complex1 votes

It fits thematically I'll give you that. I don't really like it though as its quite different in play style to current chogath. My main issue with it is that its far too overloaded. Current Chogath is a relatively simple champ and I like that. Whats satisfying is building ap then landing the perfect q w e r combo. This kit has so many mini abilities and THINGS in it that its kinda overwhelming. Like he's got 3 passives in his kit for starters and loads of interaction between abilities. If Chogath was a new champion I would be head over heals for this, but as a rework of Cho'gath I don't like it; it changes too much and crucially changes him into a super complex champion rather than a simple but fun and rewarding nuke.

X1complex1 votes

It fits thematically I'll give you that. I don't really like it though as its quite different in play style to current chogath. My main issue with it is that its far too overloaded. Current Chogath is a relatively simple champ and I like that. Whats satisfying is building ap then landing the perfect q w e r combo. This kit has so many mini abilities and THINGS in it that its kinda overwhelming. Like he's got 3 passives in his kit for starters and loads of interaction between abilities. If Chogath was a new champion I would be head over heals for this, but as a rework of Cho'gath I don't like it; it changes too much and crucially changes him into a super complex champion rather than a simple but fun and rewarding nuke.

Void Kaiju1 votes

Your comment got posted twice!

I think you may be getting lost in all the details. I put EVERYTHING there was to know in this, and that can have the impact of bogging it down. I probably should have made a tldr version of the kit to break it down in the way we often see them done. Keep in mind that even our current, simple Cho'Gath can look very complicated when you have him with all of his numbers and stats and ability durations stuck in there.

He does have more interactions, but they're actually pretty simple when you boil them down.

##TLDR KIT

  • Passive: Every 3rd attack does magic damage in an AoE. If he's been fighting for a bit, it hits harder. (Acts a bit like his current E autos!)

  • Q: A ground targeted skillshot nuke/knockup with a delay. If he uses during E it leaves a damage area. Bigger cho= bigger nuke area.

  • W: A silence in a cone in front of him. He has to channel to keep it up, and it gets wider as he uses it. Shoots a mini version of live W after if he has a feast stack. (I love the spell, but it needed some counterplay)

  • E: Damage in an area around him and a bit of extra movement speed. Enemies who stick around for a bit take more damage. Ult kills reset this.

  • E PASSIVE: When he is fighting for a bit he gets heals.

  • R: Targeted true damage nuke. Kills with it grant him max HP and make him bigger. As he gets bigger his spells get a few bonuses.

It's not actually that much when you break it all down. Yes it does have a bit more to master than he does on live (as it well should), and it gives the enemy a little more room to play around him (also as it well should) but many of the spells have the same impact they would before, and this version actually enables more options on how to build him than current Cho'Gath. Hopefully this helps make him seem a little less overwhelmingly complicated, since I think he's actually pretty simple once you take a good look at him!

gerbe1 votes

this is some amazing work. good job! i also see that godzilla gifs and i loved the new movie. and i'm excited for the brand new one that's coming out soon. anyways, i loved reading this post. i was in awe reading over it, it's very detailed and interesting to read. i can't wait to see any new posts from you.

Void Kaiju1 votes

Thank you so much!

Keep your eyes on Concepts & Creations as well as Story, Art, & Sound, if you want to see more from me! I tend to lurk there and I have a few more pieces of this full Cho'Gath VGU to unveil (lots of concept sketches and I need to do a finalized writeup on his lore after my last Cho'Gath lore discussion thread gave me a lot of good ideas!)

And yeah. I have no words for how excited I am for the next Godzilla film. I've been a fan of the big guy for pretty much as long as I have been alive. Always down to see him come to the big screen with a bunch of my favourite monsters. (I pulled gifs from a couple other iconic monster movies too! I'm a kaiju junkie)

PhalseLogic1 votes

I love these new abilites. However, they seem a bit overloaded. His q is a pull in and a slow right after? Plus it can make an aoe ground effect. This is the new aatrox w in reverse. Its also a diana pull but with much more damage.

I think W does too much damage, but I love the ornn style channel with the silence and the additional silence you receive after the chennel ends. Consider making the shockwave pulse from the same angle as the original because it would feel pretty bad to get silence again after leaving the area.

I like the passive but i think it might do too much dmg.

I think feast has too low of a cooldown, considering that it synergizes with the rest of his abilites.

Void Kaiju1 votes

Thanks for your comment! I have a decently long reply for it:

Comparing spells can be fun, but it's always important to consider the kit that the spells go on. For Cho'Gath's kit, the Q is his ONLY means of making a pick, or of peeling an enemy off of himself if he gets engaged on. He's completely immobile and lacks any other immobilizing cc.

Aatrox, on the other hand, has a Q which is oppressively powerful in lane and carries the bulk of his damage and crowd control, and it synergizes with his e. His W is more of a filler spell that rounds out and enables his combo but is a bit... softer due to the fact that so much of his power is in other spells.

**Diana'**s pull is also weak because the kit it's stuck on is so powerful. She can dash to and instantly delete someone, her pull is almost redundant if she's ahead because she'll never be denying a target an escape. It's more of an interrupt to help her win trades or keep a target around long enough for her to proc her passive on them. -Very different spells, very different uses. Yes, Cho'Gath's Q does do the whole "pull to center and do damage" thing better than them, but it also serves a more primary role in his kit than those spells do in their respective kits. It in no way invalidates those spells because the champions that they are on are so dramatically different.

Current Cho'Gath Q has a knockup/slow, both of which have a longer duration than the pull to center/slow I have attached to this spell. Does this make the live Q just a better version of Rek'Sai W because both of them are AoE knockups, and Cho'Gath's has range and a slow whilst hers only is a light knockback on all but the nearest target?

Is the spell itself overloaded? Usually the golden rule I go by is a spell can do three things before it seems crowded. This one has pull/damage, slow, and an empowered cast. It doesn't do a bunch of different things, it does one thing and sometimes throws a little extra damage on the side if somebody sticks around.

An example of a spell that is overloaded, imo, would be reworked akali's q. It has a slow, a self heal, a damage amp against minions when maxed, and it procs her passive which grants extra movement speed and extra damage on her next basic attack. I don't know if having a cooldown that short should also be counted as yet another thing, so you can take it or leave it at your own discretion. Either way that is between 4 and 6 things, depending on what you count.

The W may very well do too much damage. It's really hard for me to tell when I'm just putting a kit together because right now all they are is numbers on a screen, I've yet to see them in action and figure out how hard magic resist will cut the damage or how satisfying/unsatisfying the damage may be on such a powerful-looking spell. The shockwave is locked into the same direction as the initial cast, although the cone is a bit wider. I think it's interesting like this but if it were in a testing environment it may end up being too much.

i think currently his passive damage is fine as it stands. It will be cut decently by most laners base MR/any MR purchase (he's all magic damage, if the opposing laner doesn't pick up magic resist their deaths are on them.) It's pretty easy to avoid since he's melee and would need to position himself very particularly to catch you through the minion wave. He also has lost a lot of his %HP shred he used to have with his live E, which has very high uptime and very consistent output which makes laning vs him a game of spike dodgeball. This loads a bit more power into just one hit at predictable intervals, which gives the enemy more downtime after dodging it but also rewards the cho player for being able to land it.

Wouldn't his ultimate's synergy mean it should be on a short-ish cooldown? The spell by itself is just a targeted nuke and the damage in this version of the kit is pretty steeply lowered compared to the live version. He needs those stacks to scale and to be useful in a fight, and he doesn't bring the same threatening ultimates to the table that many juggernauts/battlemages do. The ultimate just by itself is pretty simple and not particularly powerful, he needs to be able to get stacks by playing properly in order to become a true monstrosity, so I gave it a lower cooldown to facilitate that. With a much longer cooldown, it will be hard for Cho'Gath to get at a lot of the power locked behind his Feast stacks before very late in the game.

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