Fixing Veigar by adding more healthy patterns and Skill Expression (Very Detailed)
Hey nobody, it's me, back again with another draft of what I'd do to fix the absolutely terrible 70% Event Horizon Power Budget, 1.25 second delay on main damaging ability, ultimate ability that is essentially an auto attack that either does 100 damage to someone you are trying to kill that is full hp or 4.8k damage to someone you've basically already killed with 100 hp.
I really want more for Veigar because he is really fun and above everything else I absolutely adore his character. A 1 ft 2 inch dude from between dimensions who yells at everyone that he's evil and then blasts them when they start laughing.
Right now Veigar is one of 3 things
In really low ranks: Broken, 2.5 second stun, followed by 1k-2.8k damage full combo. Anyone that says he is broken has a mental delay of beyond .5-1.25 seconds or lacks the ability to right click on a structure labelled destroy this with a big red health bar.
above like Gold 5: Does nothing, W 1.25 second delay and .5 second E delay will not be hitting anyone. Q and R only consistently usable abilities. R does nothing unless you get them low so it either does like 100 damage, you are ksing someone else, or they are dumb and walk into your w/e. You'll find that Veigar turns into someone who is a worse morgana in these situations. His E lasts for 3 seconds so you can trap someone in an area for the same amount of time as a Morgana Q regardless of tenacity. His E luckily is his only good ability. I'd imagine like 2% of it went towards his q like 5-8% towards w and like 8-12% towards R damages and then the rest went towards his E and infinite Ap Passives. However since most games last less than 40 minutes and champs like kat/zed/kass/fizz/olaf exist your ability to get a homeless mans version of Morgana Q won't save you. In some match ups you are essentially a caster minion. There are some bad matchups for champs but no one just outright obliterates you like Veigar's bad machups. None of the changes I'm going to put forward even really need to be added if you just add a grounded effect to his current E, get rid of the W passive that didn't solve anything, and make his ulti not an auto attack that requires you to hit your abilities that don't hit. Those matchups as well as the delays on all your abilities need to be addressed cause as it stands right now Veigar only exists to augment his team by waiting for teamfights, not feeding until then, and then in the choas of teamfights putting an E on the enemy team and then hoping they don't dodge. It's very obvious why most higher up Veigars only play support. It's cause Veigar hardly even does his job as a burst mage...he's just a mild inconvenience who sometimes acts as a janitor after a fight with low health targets.
Support/Top: A squishy nasus with a worse wither and no damage. Top Veigar is not played very much for a reason. Into any fighter he is absolutely destroyed by any form of engage and once your E is down any mediocore jg will have your tower down in 6.5-13 minutes. Your E does not help against people coming from multiple angles. Remember, it only blocks off a certain area. Even if you put it on yourself that is a worse zhonyas only delaying the inevitability that is Veigar's beyond Weak early game.
Support is his only truly viable role as he can punish people focusing too hard on your adc fairly well. Until low diamond you'll find that less prepared enemy assassins and ads die to you fairly often. However that's if you E greedily and let your adc die as well. So the bast case scenario is trading 1 for 1..and in d5 where chimpanzees come to breed. That's pretty sad if you ask me. His ability to split off an area is fairly useful in bot though. You can keep yourself very safe most of the time since you have someone else with you and engage supports are fairly obvious with their approach. The power to just block off a targetted area and force flashes is a great tool bot. However for less than a couple hundred people, maybe even under a hundred, that's not enough for Veigar to succeed. I think I've only seen 2-4 Veigar's in Challenger and they all played him support. SAGA SUP VEIG M was the pioneer of Veigar support for a while but then he disappeared. We had a few in Master tier by the end of the season and TheBossVeigar is pushing towards 3 million mastery points on his mid diamond account. There are a lot of decent Veigars...but no really good ones it seems.
Question asked on old boards 7-18-2013: What Roles can Syndra, Veigar, and Brand Play? I know they are mainly ap mids, but can they also play top, jungle, and support if built correctly?
Answered same day: not really. Their full potential is when placed as a burst mage.
zooms in BURST zooms in more BURST
Yeah okay sure, I wish i could be that
I wish that my skill expression wasn't shown by other people being dumb and walking into my abilities. So that even when I burst people I feel satisfied. Like I did something other than spectate someone basically looking at an E and deciding that they wanna die or the massive white circle of a impending W and saying sure I'll take a sip o' that.
Like it blows my mind.
And I have people like "i've played veigar for 6 years and I don't think he's at all underpowered or poorly designed"
And, like, downvoting my shit like i'm completely wrong. Not even a little bit? Not even, like, a 10% slow on my q so i can hit my e or w? Or something? Completely rewarding gameplay that shows off the skill of the player?
I like how when you search Veigar montage half of the plays are (like i said) people walking into the E and then getting combo'd. I just meme to my friends now whenever someone does that. "Going in the montage" After a guy ganks my lane and runs strait into event horizon as 60% hp kha zix and i w q r him "Outplayed. Outskilled."
When idiots do dumb shit...that's not even dumb, that's worse than dumb...when they walk into my abilities and say i'm broken, I just imagine a rioter taking their argument into account. I hope to whatever god riot worship they don't actually listen to that shit. Or at least they listen to the part where he's broken and needs another rework.
Alright i'm done ranting you get the point onto what I would do with Veigar
His title is still fine although I feel there's some missing potential.
Stat Changes:I made him slightly squishier, slightly slower, his AD a bit lower, and i reverted the 50 range he got, as well as the W buff since it was pretty bad.
My intentions with this were to make him kind of like an AP Darius. Someone with low range but if he got you in that range you were fucked. However of course with Veigar this has to be done a lot differently. He can't just walk up to you and click on you and win a 1v1 (that would be dumb...hinthint). His passive, Q Passive, and E are all very situational. He doesn't get his safety ability until level 6 similar to how Eve doesn't get her stealth till 6. His W delay now scales down and slows so you can actually use it just like Urgot Q. Except Veigar is more like a Zoe version of Urgot because his damage is all on his Q+W now. He can use W to kite now, his Q stacking mechanic is still his main gimmick except now it grants Veigar 3 smaller baleful strikes on his 3 attack sources. His E is a more controllable Ap verion of Kled W + his old Ulti mixed together.
I really like these changes except for one thing. His ability to place individual Pillars of his old Event Horizon. I am not sure whether these are broken or not. You can place as many as you want pretty much until you run out of mana or are forced to leave the 700 unit range of the ability. I feel like the ability to make a global cage would be broken but at the same time you are sacrificing 20 mana per pillar and the space between each pillar is 250. I don't think a Veigar could actually do that without running out of mana. On top of that it takes .25 seconds for a pillar to rise but it can be placed with 0 cooldown if put next to another pillar. So you could smash the R key more times than Moe on yasuo and be out of mana in like 3 seconds and be left with a line of pillars that don't do much (since they don't silence/blind past 4000 units). I really like the ability to make a wall of pillars to a different lane and then draw a circle around an enemy champion to trap them for your team. Thus Veigar doesn't need to worry about his 325 movement speed hindering his ganks; he can gank from mid without leaving. Is this reasonable though? It's about 9000 or so units from the safety of mid tower to bot lane so that's a lot of pillars. minus the 700 first pillar place distance it would take another 33.2 (34) pillars to reach that far and then another 2-6 to finish the Event Horizon. 36-40 Pillars is 720-800 mana just to gank a lane. Veigar has 652.4 mana at level 6. That sounds balanced but idk I'm still not sure. A few numbers can definitely be tweaked while still keeping the skillful placement of Pillars fun for the Veigar player while still being visible and avoidable (still has the same delay of .5 seconds since the .25 seconds the pillar is raising and the .25 seconds the Beam is connecting equal .5 seconds) for those playing against him. Even scripters making a 8+ Pillar Event horizon instantly still give enemies the same amount of time as "Current" Veigar to know an Event horizon is forming and that they need to choose to either stay inside and dodge the incoming Dark Matter and Baleful Strike or dive for the opening while it's there. The huge mana cost of the ability along with the still existing delay are the only thing convincing me this isn't pants shittingly busted. Like most of the time you won't be able to form that many Pillars accurately so the delay will be even longer than "Current" Veigar. A fair trade off I'd say. Bigger mana cost and slightly longer delay to make a bigger one with some pre 6 weakness built into it to make up for the power his Passive and E give him. The ability to make a line of adaptive Silence/Blinding up to 4000 units or 14 Pillars long might still be busted. That'll have to be shorter probably. Like I said some numbers need to probably be lower I'm just throwing this out there and hoping someone higher up at riot will get some inspiration to do cool stuff with Veigar. I wanna find cool new tricks on my champion just like the other difficult champs in the game. All I'm learning with current Veigar is that people are dumb lol.
Veigar, the Tiny Master of Evil
Health: 481-1943 (lowered by 24) Health Growth:86 (lowered by 8) Health Regen: 6.5(1.3)-16.7(3.34) Mana: 392.4-1276.4 Mana Regen:6-19.6 Attack Damage:42.7-87.3 (lowered by 8 from 50.7-95.3) Attack Speed:.625 (+0-38.1%) Armor:22.6-86.3 Magic Resist:30-38.5 Movement Speed:325 (lowered by 15 from 340) Range:500 (lowered by 50)
Passive: Antagonist: Veigar enters an Empowered state after entering an Event Horizon, leveling up, or scoring a takedown until out of combat for 1.25/2.5/3.75/5 seconds (1/6/11/16).
Empowered state: Entering this state slows and reduces the damage of all enemy champions within 650 units of Veigar by 25% for 1 second. He gains 20% + 10% Ap ratio movement speed and 10% + 20% Ap ratio ability power.
Q: Baleful Strike: Veigar unleashes a bolt of dark energy in a target direction, dealing 50/100/150/200/250 + 70% AP magic damage to the first 3 enemies struck.
Q Passive: Phenomenal Evil Power: Every time Baleful Strike kills a target Veigar gains 1 stack of Phenomenal Evil Power (3 upon scoring a takedown on an enemy champion or epic monster). He can have up to 3 Phenomenal Evil Power at a time and they are shown as 3 small orbs orbitting Veigar. Veigar's basic attacks deal 10/30/50/70/90 (Q Level:1/2/3/4/5)+5/10/20% (R Level:1/2/3[30/90/150/210/270 + 15/30/60% Ap ratio max bonus damage]) Ap ratio bonus magic damage on hit (50% damage against minions) and Baleful Strike and Dark Matter both deal 10/20/30+11/22/33% (R Level:1/2/3 [30/60/90+33/66/100% AP ratio max damage{50% damage against minions}]) Ap ratio bonus magic damage per stack of Phenomenal Evil Power. Phenomenal Evil Power does not effect turrets and is consumed upon hitting enemy champions and epic monsters. Baleful Strike's visual size (not hitbox) scale with Veigar's AP.
Damage: 50/100/150/200/250 + 70% AP magic damage Passive Auto Damage: 10/30/50/70/90 (Q Level:1/2/3/4/5)+5/10/20% (R Level:1/2/3[30/90/150/210/270 + 15/30/60% Ap ratio max bonus damage{50% damage against minions}]) bonus magic damage on-hit Passive Q/W Damage: 10/20/30+11/22/33% (R Level:1/2/3 [30/60/90+33/66/100% AP ratio max damage{50% damage against minions}]) Cost: 40/45/50/55/60 mana Cooldown: 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 seconds Size: 1% increase per 10 Ap Range: 950 units Missile Speed: 1500 units per second Interrupts movement: True Channel Time: .15 seconds Phenomenal Evil Power Max Stacks:3 Phenomenal Evil Power gained on enemy champion/epic monster takedown: 3 Phenomenal Evil Power gained from killing a non-champion: 1
W: Dark Matter: Veigar calls a mass of dark matter to fall from the sky which lands after a 1.5/1.25/1/.75/.5 second delay to the target location, dealing 100/150/200/250/300 + 100% AP magic damage to all enemies hit as well as slowing them by 10/20/30% for 1/1.5/2 seconds (R Level:1/2/3).
W Passive: Veigar regains 5% of his missing mana for every target killed by Dark Matter.
Damage: 100/150/200/250/300 + 100% AP magic damage Mana gain on W Kill: 5% missing mana ratio Slow: 10/20/30% Slow Duration:1/1.5/2 seconds Delay: 1.5/1.25/1/.75/.5 Cost: 60/65/70/75/80 mana Cooldown: 8 seconds Range: 950 units Hitbox Diameter: 225 units Interrupts movement: True Channel Time: .15 seconds
E: Primordial Burst: Every 20 seconds Veigar's next basic attack, Baleful Strike, or Dark matter blasts the target enemy unit(s) with primordial energy, dealing them 25/50/100 + 25% AP magic damage + 11/22/33% Target Missing Health Ratio bonus magic damage (max 500 damage against minions and monsters). This ability does not activate until Veigar has gained at least 1 Phenomenal Evil power and activating it consumes all Phenomenal Evil Power available.
Damage: 60/85/110 + 25% AP + 2.75/5.5/11% Enemy Missing Health Ratio bonus magic damage per Phenomenal Evil Power consumed Damage (against targets below 33.3% health): 350/500/650 + 150% AP magic damage Cost: all Phenomenal Evil Power currently available Cooldown: 20 seconds Interrupts movement: False
R: Ancient Obelisk: Veigar commands a stone Pillar to rise out of the ground at a target location. After .25 seconds the Pillar acts as terrain and adaptively silences/blinds all enemy champions within 250 units of the Pillar every .1 second, refreshing until the champion is outside the range or the Pillar has vanished. Each Pillar exists for 3 seconds and the duration is reset every time a new Pillar is formed. Pillars placed after the first have a minimum and Maximum place range of 250 Units away from the previously placed Pillar. If the silence zone of a Pillar connects with the silence zone of the 5th previously placed Pillar or a Pillar placed even longer ago the Pillars shoot a beam to one another over .25 seconds, connecting to each other, and forming an Event Horizon between them (makes a shape). After an Event Horizon is formed Veigar recovers 10% of the mana it took him to create it and causes all unconnected Pillars to vanish. Pillars connected by an Event Horizon no longer Silence enemies within 250 units. The Event Horizon however knocks down and stuns enemies who pass through its edges for the first time for 1.5/1.75/2 seconds. Enemies hit by the beam when it first forms are stunned for an extra second. After an Event Horizon is formed and all unconnected Pillars disappear Ancient Obelisk is instantly put on cooldown and no further Pillars can be summoned until Ancient Obelisk comes off cooldown again. The cooldown of Ancient Obelisk does not go down until all Pillars have vanished. Veigar's Ancient Obelisk maximum cast range connects with, and is extended by, the 250 unit silence zone around each Pillar. If There is more than one Pillar and Veigar disconnects the Maximum range of Ancient Obelisk from the range of existing Pillars all existing Pillars disappear. Ancient Obelisk has no cooldown when cast within the 250 unit silence zone of an existing Pillar and its cast range is extended. Pillars more than 4000 units away from Veigar do not Silence/Blind. Ancient Obelisk's base cooldown does not get reduced by cooldown reduction, it instead is reduced by ability power: 1% per 10 ability power up to a max of 75% total base cooldown reduction.
R Passive: If Veigar scores a takedown, while empowered, his E's cooldown, his auto attack, and Empowered Duration are refreshed.
Cost: 20 mana Cooldown: 32/24/16 seconds Cooldown Reduction on R: 1% per 10 ability power Maximum Cooldown Reduction on R: 75% Range: 700 units Interrupts movement: False Duration: 3 seconds Silence Duration: as long as the target remains 250 units away from a Pillar they are silenced (unless the Pillar is effected by an Event Horizon) Raise Duration: .25 seconds Pillar Hitbox Diameter: 56.25 units Pillar Silence/Blind Zone Diameter: 500 units (with the Pillar in the center, so 250 units in every direction away from the Pillar) Pillar Silence/Blind Zone falloff: 4000 units Event Horizon Stun duration: 1.5/1.75/2 (+1 second if they are hit by the beam as it forms) Event Horizon Delay: .25 seconds
Or you know...you can just make the inside of his current E ground so I don't get fucked up by these teleporting assassins and blinking players 3 ranks lower than me...I don't even care if half my kit does nothing and my passive is useless till 40 minutes...at least give me something other than punishment for playing the funny introvert mage...thanks