Tired of items being ruined for their intended class? Here is a possible solution:

HalcyonDweller··12 votes·1,491 views

Problem statement:

This is my opinion obviously, but it is one that I have based off of observations throughout the years. It's really frustrating to see an item that was intended for one class have to be nerfed simply because other classes abused it.

Some examples:

  • Support items being taken by any other role.
  • Juggernaut items being taken by Marksmen or Assassins.

The reason (maybe?) that this has not been dealt with directly:

It seems like Riot does not want to hurt build diversity or enforce a meta.

I admire them for this. As a player who enjoys experimenting and trying things that opponents will not expect, I greatly appreciate being given the flexibility to build however I want.

BUT, I do not think it is healthy for the game anymore to simply allow flexible builds run rampant. We need to find a middle ground where freedom exists, but balance is protected.


A possible solution:

What if we could allow players the flexibility to build in whatever direction they wanted, but force them to stick with that direction after choosing it?

Let me explain: Imagine a shop system where certain items are reserved for certain 'classes' and players could choose, once per game, to lock into a particular class.

  1. Most items would still be available for everyone
  2. Players would gain access to a class's shop page after selecting that class in the shop and committing to it.
  3. Items that are considered acceptable for that class (and only that class) to build would be available in that shop page.
  4. Some items could be made available to multiple classes if they only need to be restricted from certain other classes.
  5. If needed, players could be free to choose a different class at any time so long as they don't have any items currently built that are restricted from that class.

To see how this might work, let's use a past example of Sterak's Gauge, which (if I remember correctly) had to be changed because Marksmen were taking it. If a champion wants access to crit items, they would have to lock into the "Marksman" class, but since Sterak's Gauge is a Juggernaut item, it would not be available to them because their chosen class does not have access to that item/page in the shop.


The benefits of this solution:

  1. Players would still have the freedom and flexibility to experiment with their builds, since they can still choose any class as any champion, but the would at least be stopped from abusing items intended for classes other than the class that they are primarily building as.

  2. Riot would be free to develop really cool items for each class, without fear of them being abused by other classes, because any item that becomes abused can easily be restricted from any mixed-class builds that abuse them.

  3. Each class could be more easily balanced against each other class because their items cannot be mixed with other class's items.


Credit:

Credit is owed to Ariel the Cruel for helping discuss this idea and develop it into a more viable solution. If you are interested in viewing the original discussion you can find it here.

70 Comments

LuaDotExe3 votes

In my opinion, this's just another step in complicating the game. While it does solve that issue, we're causing a couple other issues: hybrids, and specific champion cases such as Kayle and Azir are being locked out. Additionally, there are some champions that are middle-ground in roles, and sometimes you're not sure what you're going to be building yet. For example, on my main (Master Yi), there are a couple of different builds I'd choose from: critical strike, on-hit, attack speed bruiser, and flat AD bruiser. Speaking of roles-- how many roles are you going to put for selection? ADC and Assassin and the basic roles? Or are we going to get more specific, with things such as "AP Bruiser" and such? I feel as though simple stat and mechanic changes, as Riot are doing currently, are the better situation. Mildly noteworthy, but I believe that Smite has a system similar to this, where you can only see and buy certain items based on who you're playing. Don't quote me on this, because I haven't played Smite in years.

Oleandervine2 votes

Hybrid champions are a quickly dying concept in the game these days. You'll notice that VGUs and new champions are removing hybrid itemization from kit requirements. It's simply a vestigial kit design from the antiquity of League, and they could always simply rework champion scalings to fit the loss of access to AP and AD weaponry. For instance, why the hell does Jax, someone who excels in beating the shit out of people with different weapons, need to have hybridized build paths? It makes no sense from a lore or a general gameplay perspective. Kayle specifically is in desperate need of a VGU. She's been rumored about recently to be on the radar for one, so that's probably an indication that they'll fix her kit problems of needing to build so erratically. Let's face it, she's bizarre, and because she's building such weird things, her power ceiling is very limited. Azir, also, typically builds pure AP, with a few items like Nashor's Tooth mixed in. I don't see how locking him out of AD items would upset his build paths.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I already said in the post that most items would not be restricted. This is a system that Riot could use to quickly and easily restrict items that became problems. It is by no means something we would want to stuff every single item into and suddenly restrict them.

Additionally it is a system that people can choose which class to build as. It's not restricting them based off of which champion they choose. Under this system I could take Ashe into the game, open the shop, and select the tank class to unlock access to items like Runaan's Hurricane and Thornmail, while locking myself out of certain other items such as Infinity Edge or maybe Zeal and it's upgrades (depending on which items are deemed to need to be restricted).

Pika Fox2 votes

I dislike this as a support main. Sometimes i just wanna play something thats not really a support (and not a damn AP mid) as a support; like support Ez or support Susan or Trundle (one thats actually used), and such wouldnt be possible with these restrictions.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Why would it prevent you from playing support ezreal or other off-meta supports? The whole point of this suggestion is that you would be free to choose which class to build items from. Support is not a class, it is a role.

Pika Fox1 votes

Because if im playing support ezreal, i need spellthiefs, manamune, and iceborne. No matter how you look at it, a class system would end up restricting one of these three from each other to work.

Same with support susan. I need targons and iceborne/trinity as well as other defensive items. Somethings getting restricted.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Manamune and Iceborn don't have a history of being abused, at least as far as I know, so they would probably remain with the majority of items that are unrestricted. You should be able to opt into the enchanter class option in the shop to get access to Spellthief's and still also get access to those items.

Well, except I actually do think that Iceborn Gauntlet shouldn't work for Ezreal the way that he uses it, but whatever, Riot seems to like it so it's probably safe.

Pika Fox1 votes

Id still need access to steraks, cleaver etc as well as my support item for certain other champs. Eventually it becomes the support role would need access to literally every single item, in which case the idea defeats the purpose.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Sterak's on an Enchanter? That's abuse of the item. Sorry but that's precisely the sort of thing the system is supposed to put a stop to.

Cleaver too, that's a skirmisher/diver item, not an Enchanter item.

If you want all those items you're basically looking at building Ezreal like a Juggernaut/Diver, so you would get access to the items that are fair for that class by opting into it. Sorry but Spellthief's is not for juggernauts.

Pika Fox1 votes

Yeah, no. Wasnt referring specifically to ezreal. Id still need it for support trundle or urgot or whatever i wanted to play support. Which is why your idea would be terrible.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I already said that support is not a class. You could grab tank support items and juggernaut items, just not stuff like enchanter support items with juggernaut items

Pika Fox1 votes

Which, again, makes the idea bad.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

HOW

Pika Fox1 votes

Because if i want to play an unconventional support, im now limited in what i can do. I cant grab the items i need to support and be relevant later due to some arbitrary restriction i either choose or riot places on the champions themselves.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

In what way do you think the system would prevent you from building the items you need to be relevant later? Which builds and items are you talking about? Give me a concrete example so I can understand. Like the champion, starting items, general build path, and why it is needed to be done that way to remain relevant later.

Pika Fox1 votes

MF support, black cleaver, spellthiefs. By your own statement Cleaver shouldnt go on ADC champions as its been "problematic", yet one of the biggest boons for support MF would be early poke and damage into later shredding with ult, and the extra defenses would also help being youre gunna likely have a proper ADC as well.

Literally anyone not a support playing as a support. Gold gen items generally get deemed problematic 24/7, so if youd want to stop everyone from running them via this system, youre going to need to heavily restrict supports from getting bruiser items. Trundle is a capable support pick also used at pro play. Meaning i need access to visage, steraks, cleaver, tiamat, etc. depending on the game and what i want to do as well as what happens.

By your own reasoning items would be cornered off either based off whatever riot deems the champion should be, or whatever pre game role you claim you want to be. Meaning, by definition, if i want to run an unconventional support or build a gold gen item in a lane where i wont be able to CS as effectively to stay relevant later, id be unable to because of some arbitrary decision on what should be restricted from who. Ultimately its not a good idea and only serves to enforce some arbitrary meta.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Okay I understand better now, thanks.

If Cleaver is somehow found to be problematic for 'enchanters' to be using then yeah it would be restricted, but otherwise it wouldn't. I haven't really seen or heard of any instances recently of BC getting abused, so it wouldn't really need to be among the restricted items.

Like I said before, you would choose the "class" separate from choosing the champion you are playing. And then it only restricts items that are considered unhealthy for that class. We're not talking about restricting a bunch of items, probably just like 1 to 4 that are considered unhealthy when used with builds from your chosen class.

I still do not understand why you would build spellthief's with Sterak's Gauge. When you're playing a character that needs to be a juggernaut, it would make more sense to take Relic Shield or Ancient Coin.

Pika Fox1 votes

MF is great for poking. Coin doesnt work well for ranged champs that want to poke and dont want to advance (It works on thresh because he has threat to kill if he walks forward, so enemy will likely give him space. MF pokes and gets out, she doesnt have long term threat and is too squishy). Plus the bonus you get from the t2 upgrade of mobility helps someone who is already mobile. Granted, theyre being removed and i STILL disagree heavily with riots decision to remove the passive benefits on the gold items for support as it really kills a lot of the enjoyment of the support items...

HalcyonDweller1 votes

We ran out of space and I'm no longer receiving notifications that you reply to me, I'll reply higher up so that we can continue this discussion chain.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Iceborn is one of the many items that ezreal has abused and in itself cause the item to be reworked with how it works

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I mean I agree, but Riot has to be the ones to choose whether to limit that or not. It should scale less on AD maybe and more on other stats so that it's not as useful for Ezreal. OR it can be restricted by the system I'm proposing.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Moved to restart our discussion chain:

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-01-22T20:30:16.852+0000)

MF is great for poking. Coin doesnt work well for ranged champs that want to poke and dont want to advance

That is why I said there isn't really a need to restrict BC. I was talking about Sterak's Gauge now, not BC.

(It works on thresh because he has threat to kill if he walks forward, so enemy will likely give him space. MF pokes and gets out, she doesnt have long term threat and is too squishy). Plus the bonus you get from the t2 upgrade of mobility helps someone who is already mobile.

Wait I'm confused, are we still talking about BC? Or Ancient Coin now?

Granted, theyre being removed and i STILL disagree heavily with riots decision to remove the passive benefits on the gold items for support as it really kills a lot of the enjoyment of the support items...

We are in agreement on this, I too am disappointed in the removal of the effects on the items.

Solicitude2 votes

I dont like this idea. In any way you put, it deprives players from "exotic" builds or even some tweaks in their build. For example, you play an AD. The choice in the "ADC items", if you want to survive, is item 3026 as item 3022 is more on the juggernaut side. But even with GA, you end up instantly dying to the enemy team, maybe cause your team cant hold the ground around where you are going to revive or there are simply too many team fights/skirmishes where you die, so GA becomes somewhat useless. So, what you want is to survive, rather than dying and getting back to life. The options in this case would be item 3022 to keep the enemy team away if they cant hard engage on you+the HP will give you more survivability. item 3143 If the enemy has too much physical damage, that will help you not get one shot. item 3157 If the enemy has a strong assassin or mage in hopes that you dont get insta-blown and making the enemy to think twice before getting blindly into the back line. But item 3143 is a tank/juggernaut item and item 3157 is a mage item, so with that "rule" ADC's wouldnt have many options left.

Also, some mages like to buy item 3001 which is a tank/juggernaut item. There is also Ezreal, who sometimes builds item 3025 over item 3078 , but item 3025 is mostly a tank/juggernaut item. And the list of champions that sometimes build out-of-class items goes on.

Depriving players from building those items so just wrong. Especially since, by building those items, you have to give something else in exchange. A mage who builds item 3140 against a heavy cc team gives up damage. An ADC that builds item 3157 or item 3143 gives up damage.

The trade of building an off-class-item is that you give up on something for something else. You give up damage for some tankiness. You give up tankiness for some damage. In a way, you get "punished" on what your class is supposed to do to get something that you need. This trade is very good in my book.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I'm not suggesting we automatically restrict every item based on the classes they are intended for. I'm suggesting that this system be put in place so that Riot can restrict the few edge cases that break the game, while leaving most of the itemization available to choose between regardless.

In most cases the trade-offs are indeed enough to make up for it. But in some cases like with Sterak's Gauge before its latest rework, there are not enough trade-offs, and the champions get to have their cake and eat it too while abusing something that was meant for other classes. Then Riot comes in with the nerf-hammer and ruins the items for those classes that were intended to use them.

Just look at Relic Shield, lately Marksmen have been taking them to get more healing and share more gold with their support. They are in no way supposed to be able to make use of Relic Shield like that. So it would make sense to restrict it by making people who choose to buy it lock into a class-path where they cannot build as many damage items.

By restricting items in this manner, Riot would be more free to develop cooler and more unique items for each class without having to worry about other classes abusing them.

rebelprincess011 votes

Riot would never implement this their whole marketing is that you can do whatever build you want.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Personally, I hold the same belief. Riot isn't likely to give this fair consideration as long as they hold the contradictory build values of open itemization and very narrow optimization.

That said. There is no guarantee that this discussion will be wasted. There's always that chance (even if small), that a Rioter will bring it up. And even if they don't, there are worse things you can do around here than brainstorming game improvement ideas. Otherwise Gameplay forums wouldn't exist.


Probabilities aside. If restricted itemization is limited to [potential] abuse cases, then that would still leave a majority of the itemization open to general use. This is about as "light touch" as you can get to resolve the targeted issue(s).

ChompyWulf1 votes

Not a terrible idea, but I worry it could get frustrating in some cases unless a lot of items are generalized and class shops are smaller and more selective.

Like the match I played today, I was Twitch. Illaoi was my support and we were bullying lane against Vayne and Velkoz. Warwick started making crazy aggressive dives and giving up kills to them. Our team lacked any true tank to peel for me and I was taking a ton of true damage in fights. Game was staying close and long, I had IE, GA, Boots, Bork, and Rageblade. What left to build against a team I needed to survive bursts and true damage? Frozen Mallet made the difference, a bruiser/tank item that allowed me to just stay upright when I'm sure another life steal item would not. Under your suggested system, would I still be able to buy it? If not, would I have had another option to build HP?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Good questions, I'll discuss each point individually.

{quoted}

Not a terrible idea, but I worry it could get frustrating in some cases unless a lot of items are generalized and class shops are smaller and more selective.

I'm thinking that most items would be generalized. Just a few really specific cases, things that are game-breakingly abusable. For example Marksmen taking Relic shield and forcing Riot to nerf it somehow, or Runaan's Hurricane and Adaptive Helm being taken on squishy characters who shouldn't have unmitigatable damage reduction.

Like the match I played today, I was Twitch. Illaoi was my support and we were bullying lane against Vayne and Velkoz. Warwick started making crazy aggressive dives and giving up kills to them. Our team lacked any true tank to peel for me and I was taking a ton of true damage in fights. Game was staying close and long, I had IE, GA, Boots, Bork, and Rageblade. What left to build against a team I needed to survive bursts and true damage? Frozen Mallet made the difference, a bruiser/tank item that allowed me to just stay upright when I'm sure another life steal item would not. Under your suggested system, would I still be able to buy it? If not, would I have had another option to build HP?

I'm not suggesting that these changes be made in isolation. Damage is way too high and for this to work with the way things are now, damage will have to be toned down so that squishy characters don't need to build the items they have been abusing just to be relevant. The thing is that Marksmen do have items that they are supposed to be able to use to survive, there is Phantom Dancer, Guardian Angel, and Bloodthirster. But these items aren't relevant because damage is too high and getting health is the only way for them to be relevant in the situation you described.


tldr; Most items would remain unaffected, just abuse cases or items that do things for their bearer that go against that bearer's intended purpose. And for this idea to work damage needs to be toned down so that everything is less bursty.

ChompyWulf2 votes

I think a big issue with damage creep was massive rune change. Even if playing a mage or marksman, you probably either had some armor, HP, or even MR slotted into your rune page, probably scaling so you weren't getting totally blown up late game and could focus item builds into your strengths rather than cover weaknesses.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Absolutely, but IMO the best way to solve this is to reduce damage rather than bring everyone's resistances up again (I believe this in part because Riot already did it with preseason and it didn't accomplish quite enough in that regard).

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Just adding to the discussion.

One of the problems with increasing defense is that the game has ways to bypass those defenses. And Riot's design philosophy is that offense should always out-scale defense. Which means that survival buffs are almost always followed by kill pressure buffs. So making people more durable doesn't normally accomplish much in the long run.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

That is also a good point, we don't want an arms race that just leads to more power creep.

Automated Riven1 votes

I don't think crit should be in the marksmen page. Especially since champions like shaco like to build it. You run into more problems with this idea by restricting completely fine albeit situational builds by locking them behind classes. Such as buying lethality+IE as core on certain marksmen. Champions like shaco using crit+lethality. Fighters buying 1 lethality item to help with damage against squishies. Reasonable defensive item purchases in games where your lacking peel and can sacrifice the DPs for survivability.

Untimately imho if someone is ruining an item which other classes need to exist. (steraks) the the solution, which riot did well, is to adjust the item to fit a champion who needs it but cannot be abused well by other champions who would be considered abuse cases.

And last case scenario should be melee only. As the only champions who break stuff repeatedly are ranged ones.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for contributing! I'll respond to each point individually:

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-01-19T19:59:31.447+0000)

I don't think crit should be in the marksmen page. Especially since champions like shaco like to build it. You run into more problems with this idea by restricting completely fine albeit situational builds by locking them behind classes. Such as buying lethality+IE as core on certain marksmen. Champions like shaco using crit+lethality. Fighters buying 1 lethality item to help with damage against squishies. Reasonable defensive item purchases in games where your lacking peel and can sacrifice the DPs for survivability.

I don't fully understand what you mean here. I thought that for Crit to be efficient you had to build a lot of it, which would not leave shaco enough room for lethality items?

But I do understand that you are concerned about limiting builds. This can be alleviated in several ways:

  1. Shaco would be free to select the class that has access to crit items if he wants to go for a crit build.

  2. We don't have to limit all items the same. Perhaps some items can be allowed to cross pollinate such as Crit and lethality.

  3. Or we could just limit the Marksmen / Slayer items similarly, by making Zeal upgrades only accessible if you select the Marksman or Slayer class.

Untimately imho if someone is ruining an item which other classes need to exist. (steraks) the the solution, which riot did well, is to adjust the item to fit a champion who needs it but cannot be abused well by other champions who would be considered abuse cases.

That's a problem that comes up frequently enough though that it ends up forcing Riot to deal with it each time, and it takes development time to rework items. I think it would be more efficient to create a system for restricting items, so that they don't have to rework a cool item, they can simply restrict it from certain classes so that players who want to use the items have to commit to changing their build direction.

And last case scenario should be melee only. As the only champions who break stuff repeatedly are ranged ones.

Indeed Melee-only works in some cases, but arguably there are other instances of abuse besides simply range/melee splits. The problem could instead be completely mitigated by setting up these class shop systems and making class-based item restrictions.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I thought that for Crit to be efficient you had to build a lot of it, which would not leave shaco enough room for lethality items?

Some champions have auto-crits in their kit. Shaco's passive, Fiora's double-attack, Pantheon's spear, Jhin's 4th shot; To name a few.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Oh I see! Hmm. Would it be fair though if such champions had to commit to crit items in order to be able to build them? It seems that then it would be fair to lock them out of items like Sterak's Gauge and Adaptive Helm.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Auto-crit champions generally only get IE. Personally, I'm fine with them getting a crit bonus, but not fine with low crit chance in general. So unless they want to commit to full offense, they shouldn't be given a 20% chance to bypass skill.

That said. For Riven's specific example, I don't see a problem with lethality being available to Marksman.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I am unhappy with how Crit works anyways, but that is a subject for a different discussion XD

I concur, I don't see any problems with Lethality being available freely, any time the stat is too powerful it is because of synergies within it's items anyways rather than due to mixing with other builds.

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for contributing! I'll respond to each point individually:

I don't fully understand what you mean here. I thought that for Crit to be efficient you had to build a lot of it, which would not leave shaco enough room for lethality items?

Crit usually needs multiple items for effectveness. this is not the case with Auto crits (jhin 4th shot and shaco passive, as they are guaranteed to crit and then simply benefit from the modifier of IE with the bonus damage applied to the crit. A shout out to MF who has an ulti which can crit and so typically IE is purchased 3rd item for the damage increase on her ultimate.) If crit was locked behind a build that didnt allow this combination of items to be built then that would be problematic for champions who want this type of build.

But I do understand that you are concerned about limiting builds. This can be alleviated in several ways:

  1. Shaco would be free to select the class that has access to crit items if he wants to go for a crit build.

  2. We don't have to limit all items the same. Perhaps some items can be allowed to cross pollinate such as Crit and lethality.

This is a reletively fair suggestion.

  1. Or we could just limit the Marksmen / Slayer items similarly, by making Zeal upgrades only accessible if you select the Marksman or Slayer class.

If this was implemented there are IMHO like 4-5 items which should be limited. No hexdrinker for assassins. No steracks for adc and no iceborn for adc. But I dont feel like a entire system should be implemented just to keep 3-4 items out of abuse cases, especially when 2 of the three can be fixed by making them melee only and the third is just a shit item that needs to be reworked anyway so it isnt as polorizing.

That's a problem that comes up frequently enough though that it ends up forcing Riot to deal with it each time, and it takes development time to rework items. I think it would be more efficient to create a system for restricting items, so that they don't have to rework a cool item, they can simply restrict it from certain classes so that players who want to use the items have to commit to changing their build direction.

I feel like I disagree with this statement for reasons stated above.

Indeed Melee-only works in some cases, but arguably there are other instances of abuse besides simply range/melee splits. The problem could instead be completely mitigated by setting up these class shop systems and making class-based item restrictions.

I would love to keep this discussion going Please feel free to post counter points.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2018-01-20T09:49:26.670+0000)

Crit usually needs multiple items for effectveness. this is not the case with Auto crits (jhin 4th shot and shaco passive, as they are guaranteed to crit and then simply benefit from the modifier of IE with the bonus damage applied to the crit. A shout out to MF who has an ulti which can crit and so typically IE is purchased 3rd item for the damage increase on her ultimate.) If crit was locked behind a build that didnt allow this combination of items to be built then that would be problematic for champions who want this type of build.

Okay I understand now. Well this could be solved by leaving IE as an unrestricted item. As far as I know it being useful to some champions in that way has not been an abuse case ever, so I figure Riot would probably not restrict it to the "Marksman" build alone. Or maybe it could be accessible on the "Slayer" path as well. The goal is for this system to be flexible, if something isn't an abuse case then it should still be available to everyone.

This is a reletively fair suggestion.

Thanks.

If this was implemented there are IMHO like 4-5 items which should be limited. No hexdrinker for assassins. No steracks for adc and no iceborn for adc. But I dont feel like a entire system should be implemented just to keep 3-4 items out of abuse cases, especially when 2 of the three can be fixed by making them melee only and the third is just a shit item that needs to be reworked anyway so it isnt as polorizing.

I feel like I disagree with this statement for reasons stated above.

I would love to keep this discussion going Please feel free to post counter points.

Yeah, there are not really that many actual abuse cases. I agree with you about Iceborn in particular. Other items I think might deserve restricting would be Frozen Mallet, Adaptive Helm, and Randuin's Omen.

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

Okay I understand now. Well this could be solved by leaving IE as an unrestricted item. As far as I know it being useful to some champions in that way has not been an abuse case ever, so I figure Riot would probably not restrict it to the "Marksman" build alone. Or maybe it could be accessible on the "Slayer" path as well. The goal is for this system to be flexible, if something isn't an abuse case then it should still be available to everyone.

Thanks.

Yeah, there are not really that many actual abuse cases. I agree with you about Iceborn in particular. Other items I think might deserve restricting would be Frozen Mallet, Adaptive Helm, and Randuin's Omen.

My honest opinion is that frozen Mallet simply should be removed. It's a bandaid item which has never even attempted to actually cover the problem it's supposed to fix. Altho personally It may work if it has a single target active which slows for as long as your in x-y range (think 200-250) and once that range is broken then the slow is cleansed.

Why do you feel randuins and adaptive are being abused?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=00040000000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T01:27:17.315+0000)

My honest opinion is that frozen Mallet simply should be removed. It's a bandaid item which has never even attempted to actually cover the problem it's supposed to fix. Altho personally It may work if it has a single target active which slows for as long as your in x-y range (think 200-250) and once that range is broken then the slow is cleansed.

Making it a tether seems like a very cool way to implement it. I agree it certainly would be a good way to preserve the item's intended purpose.

Or removing it, yeah. Band-aid indeed, we are in agreement on this.

Why do you feel randuins and adaptive are being abused?

Ariel the Cruel explained it a lot better than I could, if you'd like to see it just follow the link in the original post back to the discussion I said inspired this post.

It's not that I feel they are being abused per-se, more that their effects are inherently unhealthy for squishy characters to have access to. Most all of the defenses that squishy characters have access to are penetrate-able, this is because they are not supposed to be able to freely mitigate damage against them, they are supposed to be vulnerable to it. Crit-damage reduction is a flat effect, it's not something that can be countered by building a special item. Same thing for a flat % reduced damage from recurring spell effects in the next 3 seconds. These are not restance based effects, they are simply direct damage reduction by reducing the damage output of whoever triggers their passive effects. That sort of effect is only really healthy to give to tanks who are supposed to be hard to kill.

Just because these items are necessary right now to counter certain champions (teemo, Malzahar, Singed, etc.) does not mean that they should be needed for that. Damage is too high right now, and these champions should probably deal less damage in general so that these items are not mandatory against them.

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

Making it a tether seems like a very cool way to implement it. I agree it certainly would be a good way to preserve the item's intended purpose.

Or removing it, yeah. Band-aid indeed, we are in agreement on this.

Ariel the Cruel explained it a lot better than I could, if you'd like to see it just follow the link in the original post back to the discussion I said inspired this post.

It's not that I feel they are being abused per-se, more that their effects are inherently unhealthy for squishy characters to have access to. Most all of the defenses that squishy characters have access to are penetrate-able, this is because they are not supposed to be able to freely mitigate damage against them, they are supposed to be vulnerable to it. Crit-damage reduction is a flat effect, it's not something that can be countered by building a special item. Same thing for a flat % reduced damage from recurring spell effects in the next 3 seconds. These are not restance based effects, they are simply direct damage reduction by reducing the damage output of whoever triggers their passive effects. That sort of effect is only really healthy to give to tanks who are supposed to be hard to kill.

Just because these items are necessary right now to counter certain champions (teemo, Malzahar, Singed, etc.) does not mean that they should be needed for that. Damage is too high right now, and these champions should probably deal less damage in general so that these items are not mandatory against them.

Thanks for replying. I do my best to keep an open mind and would like to point out that I completely support this idea if riot was intending to make items which are designed to be broken but only in specific ways. (think items like grounding if your near your target or something similar) to specifically help out one class which is struggling. That would require riot to balance the game quite differently from how they do now though. Right now tho I feel like the abuse cases are so few right now that the whole system would be rather wasted IMHO. I almost never see a squishy build a randuins and the only squishy who buys the Mr item which name slips my mind and I am too lazy too look up atm is cassio. (that I know of) and frozen Mallet is arguably abused by gnar and iceborn is abused by ez Everytime he is strong. But I personally don't feel like these corner case instances are enough to warrant a whole system which would be forced to limit specific items to stop said abuse. (IE how would you force Ezreal to pick marksmen as a class to not allow him to pick iceborn unless you restricted a bunch of other items he wants) so in essence your forced to restrict a bunch of healthy items to specific classes (like in ezreals case probably last whisper upgrades and manamune) all to stop him from buying iceborn, but then this screws over bruisers who may want lw upgrades)

Am I making sense? If not let me know and I will explain better when I am on my computer.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=0004000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-22T18:28:08.401+0000)

Thanks for replying.

No, thank you! This is a compelling discussion and I'm enjoying it greatly. You've got solid feedback and concerns to raise, and I feel like you 'get' me about this. You understand what the focus of the issue is, unlike a few other individuals who are just obnoxiously nit-picking... >.<

I do my best to keep an open mind and would like to point out that I completely support this idea if riot was intending to make items which are designed to be broken but only in specific ways. (think items like grounding if your near your target or something similar) to specifically help out one class which is struggling. That would require riot to balance the game quite differently from how they do now though.

[sg-kiko]

That is precisely what I'm talking about! Stuff like implementing Grounding for specific classes would be SO cool!

Right now tho I feel like the abuse cases are so few right now that the whole system would be rather wasted IMHO. I almost never see a squishy build a randuins and the only squishy who buys the Mr item which name slips my mind and I am too lazy too look up atm is cassio. (that I know of) and frozen Mallet is arguably abused by gnar and iceborn is abused by ez Everytime he is strong. But I personally don't feel like these corner case instances are enough to warrant a whole system which would be forced to limit specific items to stop said abuse. (IE how would you force Ezreal to pick marksmen as a class to not allow him to pick iceborn unless you restricted a bunch of other items he wants) so in essence your forced to restrict a bunch of healthy items to specific classes (like in ezreals case probably last whisper upgrades and manamune) all to stop him from buying iceborn, but then this screws over bruisers who may want lw upgrades)

Am I making sense? If not let me know and I will explain better when I am on my computer.

Yeah that makes sense, it would definitely be a balancing act to make sure that not too many items would have to be restricted. It is frustrating when certain champions just make too good a use of every item. The hope would be that Iceborn would be locked for anyone except the bulkier classes such as tanks and bruisers, leaving most of the rest of the items from the 'blue ezreal' build unrestricted. IMO, it's not that mana builds are a problem, it's just Iceborn Gauntlet on a long-range skillshot such as Ezreal's Q.

The way this would work is that Ezreal would still be free to choose tank as a class, but by doing so he might lock himself out of some damage items that he normally builds with it. So for example maybe no access to crit items when you choose the tank class. That takes Essence Reaver and its ilk away from him. Do you think this would work? or is it still the sort of thing that has unintended consequences?


As an alternative to the entire class-system idea, Riot could give certain items negative scaling modifiers. For example, you know how Essence reaver grants CDR based on how much Crit you build? Well what if Iceborn Gauntlet was less effective the more Crit you build? Just more food for thought, I'm just curious if you think this sort of change has merit as well :)

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

No, thank you! This is a compelling discussion and I'm enjoying it greatly. You've got solid feedback and concerns to raise, and I feel like you 'get' me about this. You understand what the focus of the issue is, unlike a few other individuals who are just obnoxiously nit-picking... >.<

[sg-kiko]

That is precisely what I'm talking about! Stuff like implementing Grounding for specific classes would be SO cool!

Yeah that makes sense, it would definitely be a balancing act to make sure that not too many items would have to be restricted. It is frustrating when certain champions just make too good a use of every item. The hope would be that Iceborn would be locked for anyone except the bulkier classes such as tanks and bruisers, leaving most of the rest of the items from the 'blue ezreal' build unrestricted. IMO, it's not that mana builds are a problem, it's just Iceborn Gauntlet on a long-range skillshot such as Ezreal's Q.

The way this would work is that Ezreal would still be free to choose tank as a class, but by doing so he might lock himself out of some damage items that he normally builds with it. So for example maybe no access to crit items when you choose the tank class. That takes Essence Reaver and its ilk away from him. Do you think this would work? or is it still the sort of thing that has unintended consequences?


As an alternative to the entire class-system idea, Riot could give certain items negative scaling modifiers. For example, you know how Essence reaver grants CDR based on how much Crit you build? Well what if Iceborn Gauntlet was less effective the more Crit you build? Just more food for thought, I'm just curious if you think this sort of changexperie

Thats a fair point, the issue with blue Ezreal in general is that he doesn't typically build crit to begin with. I feel like however you try to slice it he will abuse something from that class. But I feel the issue is that this would have far reaching consequences to champions who are not ezreal. So let's assume that we have successfully locked ezreal out of all the items that he shouldnt be buying. Now lets say master yi wants crit, but he also wants something defensive to keep himself alive. (not at all toxic gameplay because of the risk he has to be at to deal damage.) He now can't buy specific defensive items to do his job. Thinking randuins or steraks or other items we are specifically keeping off of ranged adc's. This also hurts champions like j4/riven/Jax who may want to go super damagy early but later on in the game realize that they have to swap play styles to make up for the full ap maokai who we thought was a tank. So then we are locked out of a ton of items because we chose an assassin page or a bruiser page in hopes of a snowball. I am scared that in the game as it is this would be way more limiting then it's intended. It's a good idea. But it requires the whole philosophy of balance to change.

Bear in mind I could be wrong and most things I am arguing from are pretty corner case. But they could end up costing people games and causing people undue frustration.

I also remember a very specific game were me and some friends were playing. We were losing the entire game and we won in part to all of us stacking armor. (something like 11 armor items across the team) against the full ad enemy. And I purchased knights vow as riven to help keep my MF adc alive against Kha zed. This was an item I have built on riven extremely rarely but in a system like this it would likely end up locked out to keep tanks from abusing support items. That was super conercase but it had a great impact in that specific game.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

OP's goal is to restrict problem items. Lethality has never really been a problem (unless overturned), where as crit chance is a long running element of frustration in this game.

Automated Riven2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2018-01-19T21:41:39.685+0000)

OP's goal is to restrict problem items. Lethality has never really been a problem (unless overturned), where as crit chance is a long running element of frustration in this game.

Thats fair, But the long running frustration with crit has nothing to do with whom is buying it. Its the amount of RNG and extremely high dps which (atm) is spiking way to early. locking crit on the only class which consistantly buys it doesnt actually relieve the frustration. It just narrows its focus to only marksmen and yi yas and trynd. (which I feel is the only way the frustration is directed anyway) The only way to relieve the frustration with crit is to rework it. (anyone hear about ashe passive, the healthiest form of crit in the game.)

Also I feel like some people would argue that adc's being able to build lethality and deal stupid levels of damage would disagree with your consenses that its not a problem. Everytime its even remotely valueble MF shows up and starts 1shotting people and laying AOE waste to teams. (i dont feel like this is a problem, as MF has a fair bit of counterplay. Although I am fairly certain that other people do.)

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

I agree that crit as a mechanic needs an update (at minimum), but that's not really the in the scope of the proposal (as I see it). In it's current iteration, Crit "chance" frustration is only mitigated when people have high values. Because when fighting against someone with any crit chance, you always have to assume every AA will be a crit (lest you suffer the infamous 1% chance triple crit from old runes). The reasons I, personally, favor pocketing crit are...

  1. Per Riot's claim (during the class update), Crit is intended to be the ADC's primary damage stat. (which is why a handful of them have crit scaling now.)
  2. increases the chances of someone taking crit fully committing to the stat. 2.5) It mitigates people from taking just IE, Shiv, or PD and getting lucky with low crit chance values.

Lethality has stronger users all over the place. But the stat it's self has never really been an issue. Lethality marksman (Varus, MF, Jhin, Lucian, Quinn) would normally stack pen/shred at the expense of crit. Their output is also highly dependent on abilities with these builds (except Varus, who just uses it to Q snipe). So their output was largely the same. They generally slip into the meta every time pen gets over-tuned or crit gets nerfed.

item 3142 item 3147 item 3036 item 3071 Kill people by removing their resistances. item 3087 item 3046 item 3031 item 3036 Kill people by overwhelming their resistances.

As far as ADC (the class) is concerned, it doesn't matter if they build crit or pen. They kill everyone at about the same speed.

Automated Riven2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=IgARmGGd,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-20T11:28:41.820+0000)

As far as ADC (the class) is concerned, it doesn't matter if they build crit or pen. They kill everyone at about the same speed.

If this is true, I argue that lethality is too strong. The counter to lethality should be armor. ADC's should not be killing tanks at all quickly if they do not have crit scaling. Of the flip side is that defensive items are too weak. Back when Jhin was used before lethality by stacking armor pen the counter to that was to pick a high armor tank. ADC's NEED to trade of late game strength if they are trying to itemize a early game stat. If you are running lethality varus/mf/luc then there should be an absolute nessesity to have a late game hyper carry mage in order to deal with tanks lategame. (shy of running comps that are attempting to close early, or MF landing the god of all ults and wiping the team besides the tank) A lethality adc should be fatastic against squishier targets and struggle to deal meaningful damage to tanks, And crit markmen should have a harder time against squishier targets while being able to dps down high hp high resistance tanks. If that is not the case then there is a balance problem which needs to be looked at.

Anyways none is really the point here. My point is that I feel like the idea here is simply a bandaid fix of problems which could be fixed if people sat down and figured out how to fix them. Look at steracks. Ya it spent a year or two in the gutter but it didnt need to. If people had decided to fix it before hand we could have done so. I swear that people suggest such things as the current iteration has long before it actually got changed. People on the boards do actually have some good ideas. Yes, melee only is also a bandaid fix. It doesn't really fix the problem. Which is why I think it should be a last resort. I feel like creating a whole system to restrict the 3-5 items which are actually abused is simply a waste of time and effort. Unless there are abuse cases that I dont know about. Relic/iceborn (thanks ezreal) hexdrinker (imho this should not be available for assassins as easilly as it is now) maybe locket/stoneplate combo altho that has also mostly been fixed. And nobody buys crit outside of people who want to stack it anyway. Barring IE on champions with crit scaling. who simply purchase it for the increased crit.

The bigger issue here in my opinion is that crit needs to have the RNG removed and be balanced around a late game carry type build. In that it spikes at 3 items at the earliest and 4-5 really hitting the stride of being really strong at beating tanks. And tie it into itself a little bit more. I would simply like ashes passive to get her slow back, and have crit changed to simply be ashes passive. It would be 100* more beneficial and healthy for the game.

TLDR I believe that the idea proposed is a bandaid fix, and I would far rather rework crit and the 2-3 items that are being abused to have a heathier game after its over. Also if riot doesnt know how, make a thread. Ask for ideas. Pay someone to comb though them and have moderaters remove useless comments so its not too big of a chore. The combined minds of however many thousand players who are on the boards here and reddit would be able to solve these problems.

Eranell1 votes

I also would like to see Ashe's crit-functionality being adapted to every champion, practically overhauling the entire crit system by amplifying auto attack damage per se (and while we're at it, rename it) instead of having RNG play a major role. That would also make Tryndamere much healthier, just as a sidenote.

But that doesn't mean that auto-crits such as Jhin's 4th auto or Shaco's Q should be removed. I would classify certain damages as "critical", keep IE's crit amplifier for the damages that are classified as "critical" but change the crit chance as described above and make it more of a niche item for those who have one-time empowered auto attacks like (again) Jhin with his 4th auto, maybe Vayne with her Q, Caitlyn with her headshots and so on.

(Fun fact: there is also some magic damage dealing abilities that are effected by Randuins passive like Anivia's "empowered" Frost Bite, so maybe create a new item which IE builds from - i dont know, like, infinity stone, which just increases critical damages - as well as a mage item that increases crit damage)

Also riot should add more items that are specifically designed for ADC. What also may be unhealthy is to grant both crit chance and attack speed on one item. I think auto attack manipulation is a but unhealthy, too. And I mean in both ways, increasing allies/your own attack speed and decreasing enemies attack speed, at least with the current crit functionality and on hit damages, because it is way to specific. The higher your attack speed the more often you get to be lucky with your crit chance. Attack speed manipulation over a certain time is bad because certain champs like Kog are influenced too hard by it with his build-in on hit damage.

Maybe ADC should also be categorized into hard hitters and adc casters (let's call them cannons) and frequent hitters (let's call them gatlings). Cannons should be the ones able to build crit (or whatever it would be named after applying Ashes functionality to everyone) while gatlings should be able to build items that grant on-hit damage. I have to admit though, that some current champions could be hard to balance after that sort of a change, like MF who can hit both hard and/or frequent since her Q and Ult are able to deal massive damage while she also has an attack speed buff.

tl;dr: So, my solution would be to overhaul the crit system, make champs only be able to manipulate their own attack speed, distinguish between hard hitting ADCs and frequent hitting ADCs and create/tweak items for those respectively (crit for cannons, on-hit damage for gatlings; %-armor pen for cannons, on-hit true damage for gatlings against tanks), though the balancing after such a big sort of change would probably be a bitch.

More from Concepts & Creations

More by HalcyonDweller