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[Champion Concept] Messora, The Reaper's Shadow

Angeluslight··17 votes·7,749 views

20 upvotes from the original thread.

Lore:

In an isolated village in Valoran, Messora grew up in an orphanage along with many other children that lost their parents in the regular pillaging of their home. A small town brought to shambles by war, and located far from major population, it suffered as an easy target to thieves and ruffians looking for a quick grab. Unlike the other children, Messora grew up through the constant terrorization quietly--laying in bed silently as others cried in fear at night and keeping to herself as they played during the day. She always did what she was told, but rarely spoke, and only few words on those occasions. Her stoic visage and impassible eyes never reveal a hint of emotion. Such traits made her an outcast, but if she was ever perturbed by it, no one could tell.

A public meeting was called among the people of the town. The elders of the village proposed an idea involving the Institute of War. That if they could succeed in acquiring a warrior formidable enough to enter on their behalf, they could gain precious influence that would protect their home and grant them the ability to live in peace. Pooling whatever money they could scrap up, the people gathered what they prayed was enough to set their endeavor in motion. With their hope collected in a pouch, they implored the aid of a seasoned mercenary traveling in the vicinity. She accepted, but under her own conditions that she would train one of their own rather than do the fighting herself.

With effortless ferocity, the warrior woman deflected her attackers’ strikes, sending them into the dust, one after the other. She was surrounded by the young men of the poor town, each rather meek and disheartened by their clearly outmatched odds against just one woman. Years of fear and hunger had made them unfit for combat. As the humiliation continued, Messora slowly made her way through the crowd of people gathered to watch the disappointment. Dressed in a small, black cloak that concealed most of her small body, she approached a collection of weapons lain in a row on top of a long curtain of sackcloth. Messora’s pace remained slow as she surveyed the mercenary’s weapons; a variety of tools of different sizes, styles, and conditions. She stopped at one in particular-- a small, dull, rusted weapon that resembled that of a sickle with odd markings.

The scarred woman looked at the armed men around her, each defeated in body and spirit. Filled with anger and regret, she chastised the crowd of people for having wasted her time. A glint caught the corner of her eye, and with a swift motion, she swung her blade to meet her attacker. A clash of metal, and Messora was knocked off her feet and into the ground. The mercenary looked at her 10-year old assailant with confusion at first, and then anger as if being insulted. Without saying a word, the young girl in black, sickle in hand, stood back up and charged again and again; dirt splotched on her face and clothes, and panting from fatigue, but refusing to give up. The war-hardened woman smiled at her with a change of heart.

In eight years’ time, the village recovered to a better state, and with it, its warriors-in-training. A usual day of drills and sparring was disrupted by a large band of brigands that barraged the quiet town. After years of having a once-easy target turned into one of great difficulty by a single mercenary, the bloodthirsty criminals and their own sellswords turned their humiluation and frustration into a wake of fire and violence. Responding to a hopeless situation, the fighters the small town had scraped up engaged the onslaught, falling one by one. When the bloodbath ended and the screams of battle and agony had gone quiet, only half of the village and its people remained. Among them, a single young woman dressed in black; her long, dark silver hair tipped in midnight black flowing in a breeze. In her hand, Harvester, the once ill-fitted sickle that mysteriously grew into a full-fledged scythe as the girl grew in skill and age.

Standing amidst the sea of bodies, she saw the mercenary that had taken pity on the town that beseeched her aid. Messora gazed upon her mentor, noticing a smile strewn across the fallen veteran’s lips. A grin of mother-like pride.

The silent girl found no farewells from the remnants of the town that had grown to fear her. Only the sound of blood-soaked grass crushed under her boots could be heard as she departed; the first steps toward the League of Legends.

"I can't tell if she follows Death or Death is the one that follows her. All I know is if she faintly smiles at you...you'll soon find out." - Anonymous

Stats:

Health -- 365 (+80) Health Regen -- 5.5 (+.55) Mana -- 240 (+45) Mana Regen -- 7 (+.7) Range -- 150 (melee) Attack Damage -- 48.5 (+3) Attack Speed -- .65 (+2.65%) Armor -- 15.5 (+3.5) Magic Resist -- 30 (+1.25) Movement Speed -- 325

*Base stats are at “Level 0” **Values in parenthesis are gains per level

Abilities

Passive - Reap: As Messora grows in prowess, Harvester grows in size and form. At levels 7/12, Messora's basic attack range increases by 25 units. -Harvest: Range increases by 100 at max tier. -Featherduster: Projectile block duration increases by .5 seconds at max tier. -Death from Above: Slow effect becomes an AOE with a 150 unit range at max tier. -Reap and Sow: After casting, Messora's chance to critically strike increases by 25% for 5 seconds at max tier.

Q - Harvest (Skillshot): Messora hurls a phantasm of her scythe forward, dealing physical damage on the way out. As the shadow yo-yos back, it deals magical damage and knocks targets toward Messora. Range: 800 (900 at max rank) Width: (100) Knockover: (50) Damage: Thrown out - Physical damage: 35/55/75/95/115 (+50% Total AD) Returning: Magical damage: 35/55/75/95/115 (+50% AP) Cooldown: 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 seconds Mana cost: 65 MP Projectile Speed: 950

W - Featherduster (AoE/Channel): Messora whirls Harvester in front of her, knocking back enemies in range and dealing damage. Additionally, Messora takes reduced damage from all basic attacks and projectiles (except turret shots and true damage) for .75 seconds in a line in front of her. Projectiles cannot pass through and cannot trigger crowd control abilities if blocked.

Persistent passive: Attack speed is increased by 5/10/15/20/25%

Range: (125) Width: (200) Knockback: (50) Damage: 35/45/55/65/75% (Total AD) Physical Damage + 35/45/55/65/75% (AP) Magic Damage Reduced damage: 20/25/30/35/40% Cooldown: 17/15/13/11/9 Mana cost: 90 MP

  • Messora can still move while casting Featherduster, but cannot change the direction of the channel once cast. As this is a channel ability, it can be interrupted by stuns, fears, knock-ups, supresses, and taunts. Projectiles that introduce these conditions must hit Messora from an unprotected angle to effect her.

E - Death from Above (Target Cast): Messora teleports above an enemy through a magical circle, landing and striking the target, slowing them for 2 seconds. If the target is hit with this ability while airborne, this ability's cooldown is reset and 60 mana is refunded. The reset can only be activated on the same enemy once per displacement CC. Cast range: (450) Physical Damage: 60/80/100/120/140 (+60% AP) Slow amount: 20%/25%/30%/35%/40% Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10 Mana cost: 85 MP

  • All displacement CC abilities, including Messora's Q and W, are eligible to activate Death From Above's reset effect.

R - Reap and Sow (Circular AOE): Messora soars upward while swinging her scythe overhead, knocking all enemies in range up with her. At the peak of the jump, Messora counterswings her weapon, knocking her targets back to the ground and stunning them for .25 seconds. Range (Circular): (200) Knockback: (100) Magic Damage: 175/250/325 (+45% Bonus AD) (+45% AP) Cooldown: 125/110/95 Mana cost: 100 MP Total CC duration: 1.25 seconds

The goal: Messora is meant to be an AD/AP hybrid in which the player can choose between the playstyle of quick, bursty, in-your-face melee assassin or more focused on being a disruptive mage keeping a distance until the the time is right. She's focused on being more of a mid-range champion as opposed to specializing in very close range or a far distance.

This is a shortened version of the original post which contains more information including her appearance, suggested builds, and artwork.

If you like Messora, perhaps you might like:

For those in favor of the original lore and preserving the existence of the Institute of War and Summoners, please take a look at this thread.

84 Comments

Angeluslight2 votes

Bump.

So deleting bumps, or comments in general, does still take up space. Great...

Stillshade1 votes

maki her a loli and im in :D

Angeluslight3 votes

In the original post, where all the extended details fit, it is listed under the Appearance section that she is 18.

I made that specifically because I did not want her to become some sort of...object of something or other. So no thanks.

Elphrihaim1 votes

No? Akali's E does only Physical Damage and scales with AP.

Darius' passive does only Magic Damage and scales with AD.

Katarina's got multiple abilities with AD scaling but she does only Magic Damage with them-- it even tells you this in the Death Recap.

There is no rule that says "If it scales with AD it must deal Physical Damage" and the same is true for AP and Magic Damage.

So I must ask you about Featherduster's damage, is it supposed to be (35/45/55/65/75% AD) Physical Damage and (35/45/55/65/75% AP) Magic Damage, exclusively one damage type, or perhaps %AD -> Magic and %AP -> Physical? You never answered that from back when I was calculating an optimized rotation of chaining Q->E->W->E->E with multiple basic attacks between.

Angeluslight2 votes

Okay, after digging waaaay back on my process when I originally made her, I found that, yes, it was actually intentional for her to have her physical damage scale with AP. Yesterday, I was looking at damage rather than scalings, which I had to dance around with a lot to get a true hybrid as desired. It was set up so it had an AP and AD scaling for each and every ability, but Death From Above being AD base scaling with AP % scaling. So I'll definitely change that back to where it was. You reminded me that Kat was someone I did research on for part of that info on hybrid damage scaling.

This is why her true hybrid nature was kind of complex to make, often confusing myself when I first worked on her skills. Still does every so often lol

To answer you about Featherduster, it does both. I see I also forgot to label her ultimate, which didn't help me in my confusion, and that will deal magic damage.

So, in essence:

Q, W, E = 3 parts of physical damage Q, W, R = 3 parts of magic damage

Q, W, E , R= 4 AP scalings *Q, W, R = 3(+1) AD scalings

*Attack speed from Featherduster + crit bonus from Reap and Sow benefit purely AD, so I count them together as 1 for AD scalings. A mix of inherit attack speed and crit bonuses means she can build ADC-like items like Infinity Edge, or more fighter-like items such as Ravenous Hydra.

Basically, that weird arrangement of things was delicately balanced to make her possible as a speedy crit-crazy ADC or burst fighter, all depending on item build. So now you know part of the magic behind her true hybrid design that's starting to give me a headache again.

manbearswine1 votes

What the hell is that w? "we heard how much you love fizzes e,so we added something which is very similar"? no,just no.

aside from that,her kit feels awfully similar to that of diana,both with the resettable dash(which should probably go on say a ~2 sec cd on "reset",so that she won't be able to just spam it over long knockups),and with the short knockbacks.(well which diana has only one of,but still)

Angeluslight1 votes

Fizz's E makes him completely untargetable and can cross terrain...how on earth can you compare Featherduster to that? It's a mobile wall that reduces damage, but doesn't stop it. And it's still vulnerable from behind. There's nothing similar between the two.

Messora has a teleport, not a dash. And one distant similarity doesn't make her whole kit like Diana's. Messora does have a cap on how many times she can use a reset (1 per displacement effect), but of course that can be changed to 1.5 - 2 seconds.

(well which diana has only one of,but still

Come on...you can't tell me Messora's kit is awfuly similar to Diana. They both work very differently, especially since Diana is all about keeping close range and Messora is about controlling a distance. As if the comparison about Fizz's E wasn't far off base by itself.

manbearswine1 votes

the problem with fizzes e is not the relocation,it's the fact the only meaningful counterplay to assassins is to cc them,which fizzes e is great at negating,and so is your suggested w,as to "being vulnerable from behind" that's BS,this game has no turnrate,the short duration would just mean the ability would be used to negate 1-2 very powerful abilities aimed at stopping you from bursting down a squshie,same way fizz e is used.

invulnerability to cc(if it's through fizz e or yasuo w) on an assassin is inexcusable and unacceptable,yasuo and fizz should be deleted for having such abilities(ask poppy,whose ult does the same thing,albeit a bit better),and sure as hell we shouldn't add more of them.

as to her kit being about keeping distance,I'm sorry but i really don't see it,she has the ability to negate cc+reduce damage,which should just help her be in your face,she has a damaging dash to an enemy,which can be reset multiple times with her kit and some(rather short) cc,definitely feels like diana,with some fizz sprinkled on top to turn her cancerous.

Angeluslight2 votes

You obviously have an extreme bias against Yasuo and Fizz. Personally, I hate Fizz myself, and I think Yasuo's ultimate is overpowered, but I'm not going to use them as reason to completelys disarm different types of assassin kits.

Fizz can completely dodge anything and everything while freely moving into position and deal damage to enemies. Messora's Featherduster can only stop CC when they are in the form of projectiles, only from in front of her, and it lasts a short time. It doesn't completely negate the damage like Yasuo's Wind Wall or Fizz's Trickster. As for Poppy, of course I agree her ultimate is rather overpowered, but it's not the same at all. Especially when that ability negates 100% of damage on top of CC from 4 out of 5 enemy team members.

While she is suited for close-ranged engagements, she can't last all too long in them, especially early game. That's why she would have to wear down enemies before going all out. She's not very durable like Diana, who has a shield that also damages and doubles itself. And as for the teleport reset in comparison to Diana's ultimate, that's still a loose comparison. You could say that Irelia's dash reset is similar as well. Even if the reset is triggered in a different way, it's still very effective in chaining. One similarity hardly makes Messora a lot like Diana.

Fizz has a dash attack and a very effective mobile escape that can also deal damage. Yasuo has an ult-negating Wind Wall and shield from his Flow that gets reset with his long-distance ultimate. Diana has a very effective shield that deals damage and doubles itself when it does so, and has a free-cost ultimate cast when combined with her Q.

Messora has one mobile skill that can be reset under a condition, has no genuine shield, but an interruptible fixed wall for a short duration that she still receives damage with. She has micro CC that can be dodged or requires her to be well in range of attack, and she's not as naturally durable as Diana or Yasuo with their shields. Fizz is also somewhat tanky in his own right because his attacks require close range as well. Messora is on the squishy side and can't just get up in someone's face well without proper use of her Featherduster, which still leaves her very prone to taking a lot of damage when it's up.

You're putting so much emphasis on just one skill that is her only defense and can be interrupted. It's not in the same league as Fizz and Yasuo's defenses, and doesn't absorb damage like Diana's shield. She may take reduced damage, but that's still damage being delt straight to Messora's HP. She's not "cancerous."

manbearswine1 votes

"fizz and yasou bias"-oh please,i have yet to meet a person who either didn't detest yasuo and fizz or played very little/poorly/mained them himself,these champions are abominations,and pretty much everyone is aware of that.

moving on,look,you gave her "shield" a very short duration,you are perfectly aware that she will just aim it at one strong disable aimed at her,and there is no reason for her to throw it the wrong way,this is exactly the way fizz uses his e.

a good idea would be,when making her defensive ability,try to think of something which doesn't further screw champions who are already screwed,obviously when played against lux/brand she will simply throw this ability to negate their stun/snare/poke/any of their skills,when played against fizz/zed/ryze/zilean...?

as to everything else you've said,look she can keep a short distance on melees,that's about it,she isn't a get in and out assassin like zed,she is a get in and stay there assassin like diana or akali.

Angeluslight1 votes

I didn't say these champions were not overpowered, but Yasuo's extreme offensive capability doesn't attribute to Messora. And Fizz's E doesn't attribute to her Featherduster.

That's her defensive ability that of course would be wisely aimed at such attacks. That doesn't mean she doesn't have weaknesses to champions, ironically, like to Diana herself. And if Messora's Featherduster does fail for whatever reason, being interrupted or cast too late/early/in the wrong direction, that's it for her defense. Fizz's E cannot really be effected by any of that. Furthermore, because Featherduster doesn't last nearly as long as Fizz's Trickster or Yasuo's Wind Wall, it requires a lot better timing.

Messora can be played different ways. When playing assassin, she can get in, burst, and push away instead of zip out the usual way. She probably wouldn't do as well as the others in prolonged fights unless really built that way. If anything, I can increase Featherduster's CD a bit, although it's already heavily gated by the mana cost, but it's not a gamebreaking ability you make it out to be.

manbearswine1 votes

that's just the thing,they aren't overpowered,they are just incredibly obnoxious,they must be countered,because they are champions who need to be cced,yet have the kits to avoid cc from the vast majority of champions,meaning you need very specific picks against them or you are fucked,that's the problem with these sort of abilities.

continuing the comparison to fizz,quoting from wikia "Active: Fizz hops onto his trident in a nearby location, becoming untargetable for** 0.75 seconds **and gaining the ability to use Trickster.png Trickster for no additional cost before the effect ends.

If Fizz does not use Trickster, he will slam the ground below him, dealing magic damage and slowing nearby enemies within 330-range for 2 seconds." fizz has the same "problem"(it's only a weakness on paper,in practice fizz is unstoppable in large part due to this abomination of an ability),and as you can see from the description,it does last exactly as long as fizzes troll poll.

again,in the same case as fizz,this ability pretty much only defends you from the champions who are already weak(skillshot based ones,where you have time to react to their projectiles),ryzes rune prison will screw you just like it screws fizz/yasuo,so will twisted advance,whereas janna/zilean will gives you the same issues they give to other assassins.

her supposed weakness to diana isn't something new either,assassins are known to be sometimes countered by other assassins,but they aren't really weak to anything else(well I mean anything interesting,obviously point and click anythings still work),shoving mages and skillshots out of the meta,instead of creating a new assassin who avoids this issue,you are just building up on the current problem.

Angeluslight1 votes

Well, since Elphrihaim has taken the time for a longer response, of which I can't do right now with all of these phone calls, I'll cut straight to the core in a short way.

Fizz can get total immunity from all damage sources other than DoT effects while using his E. Yasuo can block all projectiles completely, negating them to nonexistence.

Messora pops projectiles, but still takes damage, just without CC. And unlike the aforementioned abilities above, Featherduster can be interrupted. Considering she's not a full 100% assassin, I don't see why this is an issue.

You're comparing her to champions that excel at close range bursts with ways to potentially avoid damage altogether. They're just not the same.

manbearswine1 votes

interrupted with what? the very ability she is going to block? yasuos windwall also is aimed at blocking things coming from the direction it's cast at,we all know how it actually works,the vast majority of champions simply can't reposition themselves around it,it's counterplay only on paper,in practice you just can't do anything for 4 seconds to anything which was behind it on cast(as that won't change during the duration,unless they simply don't care for being hit)

the issue both for fizz and yasuo isn't so much the damage negation,they deal insane burst and need to be locked down asap,yet for the vast majority of champions,their kits simply forbid that,causing them to get completely out of control(pun intended),this ability shares that,and in fact,also shares the champions it completely screws,and shares the champions who can bypass it,and shares it's cancerous nature due to that.

Angeluslight2 votes

You speak as if all CC comes in the form of projectiles. Swain's Decrepify doesn't work on Yasuo's Wind Wall because it's not a projectile. Cho'Gath's knockup, Jax's Counter, Nasus' Wither, Cass' ultimate, Renekton's Ruthless Predetor, Maokai's Twisted Advance, Riven's Kai Burst, Leona's Q and R, Ryze's Rune Prison, Viktor's Gravity field are all CC's that cannot be blocked by Featherduster.

Just to name a few.

the issue both for fizz and yasuo isn't so much the damage negation, they deal insane burst and need to be locked down asap,yet for the vast majority of champions,their kits simply forbid that

Sorry, but you just made my point while dissolving yours. As I said in my last post, Messora is not 100% assassin, so she's not going to have the burst Yasuo and Fizz have. She'll have to wear down her enemies with her Q before going in, because she's too squishy and her burst leaves her a lot more open. This is further backed by my point of her not being able to negate damage completely like the other two.

This ONE ability does not make her share the traits Yasuo and Fizz have. As I said, there are plenty of ways to counter her. So skillshots aren't nearly effective on her. So what? She still takes the damage and it can be interrupted unlike Windwall and Fizz's E. There are no real free rides for Messora.

You just really, really hate Fizz and Yasuo. And while I agree they are overpowered, I wouldn't call them abomination that need to be deleted altogether. They can definitely be balanced out. As with Messora, I think she's in a good place. And if she really wasn't, I would have heard a lot more and a lot bigger complaints when I originally posted her.

manbearswine1 votes

as to not all cc,due to hard cc being very strong,it tends to be skillshot based,again the issue is,that same as fizz,she will demand very specific counterpicks to be dealt with,and get completely out of control if they are not picked,this is the way fizz and yasuo are,and the type of instant point click cc is the same thing she will need to be dealt with.

how is she not a 100% assassin,just look at her kit,it's pretty much all about going all in,even zed has some wave clear/poke,he still is a 100% assassin,and so is she,just think about it,what exactly do you think she will be doing in teamfights?

as to skillshots not being as effective on her,this is the exact same reason the comparison to fizz and yasuo is there,the point is these champions are already in a bad spot(in large part to fizz yasuo and other things which need point and click to be efficiently dealt with),and you are just adding a champion who will further screw them,the way fizz and yasuo do.

Angeluslight1 votes

Yasuo and Fizz scale pretty hard. Messora, not as much. She has a rather weak early game, especially when her Featherduster is at max CD. This one ability is not going to cause as much havoc in all phases of the game like you keep thinking. It may stop her from being CC'd from projectiles, but she's still taking damage and can still be poked out of lane. It's not the same sustain as Fizz's E and Yasuo's Wind Wall + Flow. It's far more manageable.

Her combos can be used as an assassin, obviously. However, she can be played like a mage, too. For champions that require getting in close, she can save her Featherduster purely for defensive mechanics to push them away and help with some damage. As for going all in, she can try to juggle an opponent with a Q+E+W combo, but she needs to land all of her hits well and know what she's doing, lest she gets out DPS'ed/outsustained. Yasuo and Fizz can do their bursts and run out because that's what they do, and they can do it with high potential to completely negate abilities as a whole.

Again, this one ability by itself does not account for Yasuo and Fizz's entire potential. Featherduster is far weaker by comparison.

manbearswine1 votes

look all I can see in this post is "she's bad so she can't be cancer" well if her early is weak,and she doesn't scale well into the lategame,then what IS she good at? why wouldn't i just pick yasuo/fizz/zed/ahri/kassadin/etc over her?

she will need to be balanced around something,and her abilities just don't make sense as a poke mage(basically she has only one medium+ range,slow moving skillshot combined with cc),she will have to be balanced as an assassin,which will force out the problems of her e.

her e(and the rest of her kit) isn't as cancerous as fizz e,or yasuos windwall(and e),but they are hyper cancers and she isn't far behind them,so she won't be fizz tier cancer,she will be akali tier cancer,why is that worth making?

Angeluslight2 votes

Oh I didn't say anything about not scaling well into late game. That's what her passive helps her grow into. What I was saying is that she's manageable. While she can still block CC, she still takes damage. She can be effective in a number of ways if played right, but she doesn't exactly get a free pass.

All the champions you mentioned can still be effective against her if played right. It's not like she's invulnerable against them. People nagged me at picking Ahri against Yasuo, but I don't have much trouble against him with her. What do you do when your opponent has a defense effective against you, whether it's a shield, a Wind Wall, an evade, etc? Bait it out. MAKE them use it and plan your follow-up accordingly.

You keep saying "cancer" this, "cancerous" that, but all your comparisons deal with champions who have way more survivability and easier mobility. "Akali tier cancer?" Come on...Messora has to actually earn her teleport resets. She has to be in her enemy's face for one of them, too. And she doesn't get invisibility, free armor/magic resist (Akali's old Shroud), and definitely not free lifesteal/spell vamp. Messora also runs on mana, not energy. Messora's scaling doesn't make her a monster right away at level 6 either. I can't believe you're trying to compare her to Akali in any form.

manbearswine1 votes

well you said fizz and yasuo scale very hard,implying she doesn't,anyway,not very important.

as to the champions(kass/zed/ahri/etc) i mentioned,of course they can be used against her,they can be used against fizz/yasuo as well(some more than others),as to the whole "bait it out" thing,that's swag talk,a fizz will q you then start auto attacking you,the moment he sees you cast a spell he will e,if you don't cast it,he just won't e until he can use it to finish you off,yasuo does the same with windwall(in a 1v1 scenario,in teamfights it's a bit more complex,but just as stupid),she will do the same,jump on her target,start bursting him down,the moment she sees a spell cast react with her cc immunity,you're fucked unless you are playing her counter.

as to akali tier cancer,yes she doesn't have as much point and click burst,but she DOES have cc immunity,so yeah,akali tier cancer.

also you need to think thoroughly about this champion and what her strengths are supposed to be,zed for example for his subcancer(he isn't great,but he is far better than yasuo/fizz) status gets free easy waveclear,amazing roam,and great splitpushing,if you would compare her to zed,her roam is obviously worse(less mobility and escapes overall,and more reliance on skillshots),she has mana,splitpushing is clearly subpar,and her wave clear seems to be subpar as well,so what is she good at...well,what can she be good at? all ins,and if she lacks the burst and survivability as you claim,her damage and survivability will need to get buffed,just look at diana,who is also melee,also has a semi-resettable dash,and also has poke/wave clear on her q,what are her strengths? she will have to have a strong all inner,she just isn't capable of having anything else with that kit.

Angeluslight2 votes

There's a fine line between scaling well into late game and scaling so hard that deaths barely stop your progress. Yasuo's power multiplies with every bit of crit he gets, and only needs one or two items to shred faces. Fizz's abilities scale pretty generously, especially since his W scales off of the target's HP, which will grow even without items. Messora is not like that.

"Swag talk." Really. Then how else would you fight them? You have to be necessarily aggressive to control them a bit. The same can be said about going up against any champion in any lane. Some harder than others (Xerath and his range), but that's what laning is like. It's what it's supposed to be like.

Your scenario with Fizz and Yasuo are irrelevant as you've already even agreed that the listed champions can work against them. Not all the time easily, but still absolutely possible.

In your case with Messora, she's saving her Featherduster while having jumped into an enemy's face. That would mean she's going more AD than anything, and must be relying on lifesteal and her attack speed, otherwise she would not just leap in there unless her target was near death already (because she's squishy). This means two things:

  • Messora is in too close of a proximity to actually react to her target's CC cast, thus making her Featherduster's CC stopping power irrelevant.
  • The fact that she's saving her Featherduster primarily for defense potentially takes a lot of her combo potential out with it, being that it wasn't used right after landing on an enemy with Death From Above.

Point being, in a realistic situation, the person she would really jump on would have been screwed anyway, because risking Featherduster's damage potential is not in Messora's best interest unless she's against a squishy target to begin with, as well as being armed with items to make her auto attacks more viable. An AD assassin, or any assassin, would want to use their CC and damage before an enemy could even react. Featherduster is not a magical move that will accomplish its full potential by merely waiting for the right time if she's leaving a window of opportunity for the enemy when going that aggressively close. Waiting to use it when that close is a risk, not a benefit.

Please. Temporary CONDITIONAL CC immunity. Again, you're making that one skill attribute to a champion's entire kit. Especially Akali, someone that's either fight her or die because her dashes will just not let you go. Featherduster doesn't carry as much weight as a champion's whole kit and design. Whether it's Yasuo, Fizz, or Akali, it simply does not. It really does you no good to act like it does.

I said she doesn't have as much burst as an all-out assassin, especially like the ones that are constantly mentioned. Of course she can be equipped with burst, AD or AP. What are Messora's strengths? Whatever you build her to be. She doesn't necessarily excel at everything to an absolute, but she's viable in almost any role. She's designed as a true hybrid, a mix of everything. It's up to the player to choose what she will be played as. It may take a bit of time to build her up, but she can make use of almost any item. Of course her strengths will come with the weaknesses of such. If she's built pure damage, of course she will gain lots of burst, but at the cost of remaining so squishy like a typical glass cannon. If you build her tanky, she can be a viable support, setting up plays and peeling enemies, as well as soaking damage with Featherduster as an exclusive defense rather than for damage. She can be a disruptive mage that stays far back until jumping in for her ultimate, dealing damage and then further disorienting the enemy team with Featherduster to push them around.

Messora is quite capable of doing a lot of things, but how you play her must reflect the choice of what she'll be built to be. Not just in items, but in the choice of what skills to max first. That means combos will have to adjust properly, because her diving in and waiting to use Featherduster won't be ideal for her as a squishy mage.

Angeluslight2 votes

Once again, you cling onto this notion if "this character will win no matter what." You keep attributing that to one move or Featherduster to other champion's whole kits. Just because Messora can block some CC and damage doesn't mean she's like Fizz. She can still die if she doesn't have the HP to stop enough damage. And that makes her manageable in all phases of the game; not just the laning portion. It's ridiculous to say some champions "need deletion" because you can't figure out how to deal with them. I don't know about you, but I don't play hoping the other person sucks or has higher ping. I've beaten champions that are supposed to hard counter my own by figuring out windows of opportunity and creating my own counterplay. You seem to have hinted a notion of giving up when you get counterpicked and simply say it's because they have no counterplay. Thus they need to be deleted because can't hold your own against them, and go even further to say they cannot be rebalanced. Over one ability? Please.

Lux vs Yasuo? Done it. Won it my share of times. It's not an insta-lose unless you've already given up. His Windwall isn't always available, and he can still be zoned out because he needs to be close to minions to pick them off. Seriously, this whole thing about one ability breaking a champion is wrong. It's not even Wind Wall that makes Yasuo so overpowered, but the way he soars in power with only one or two items, not to mention his very powerful ultimate. For Fizz, he just gets in burst damages, and he's out before you realize you're dying to his DoT and about to get eaten by a landshark. He scales hard, too, and one of his attacks scales with a target's HP, which is a very powerful scaling mechanic. Messora is not like those two and doesn't refuse all damage when blocking. She is not the same.

,i myself generally will avoid a lot of picks unless i see there are no hyper mobile abominations on the enemy team,this is killing variety and making the game stale,again this is a design problem,not so much a balancing problem,(well it is,as it's turning a large portion of the champion pool to nigh unplayable status,but it's not exactly making fizz op)

You seem to conflict yourself on deciding between what kind of problem it is. While Riot probably could do a lot better in some balancing issues (like with what they did with Cass), Messora isn't "hyper mobile," especially when she has to time her reset, use her own cooldowns, and be in range of it since it's an enemy target skill.

s to the whole "the way she will use feather duster",she will use it EXACTLY the same way fizz uses his e,it might not provide direct mobility(though it will cancel slows,allowing her to maintain range on her target,which should generally be enough)

Yeah, of course it can be used defensively like that. It still sacrifices damage if not used in close enough range and, as you said, it does not provide mobility like Fizz's E. Of course it should help her keep in range of her target somehow, considering it pushes them backwards a bit if it hits. However, I know this comes from having Akali in mind as well, which doesn't compare because her dash is about a 900 range and means CC won't help get her off of you once she's on you. Featherduster doesn't necessarily mean it will help keep Messora keep in range, nor that she may want to if she's taking much damage even while reducing it.

it's as conditional as yasuos windwall(which isn't conditional at all

Blocks all damage and destroys the projectile, but it has to be a projectile and only a projectile. Sounds pretty conditional to me. It will do absolutely nothing against some champions. The same applies for the defensive part of Messora's Featherduster, which means it would have to be use a bit more offensively, which together still leaves her open for more damage.

Angeluslight2 votes

(part 2)

the issue is she is an assassin,and 100% one at that,no she will not try to poke in a team fight(does zed do that?),

Now you're comparing her to Zed. Zed scales hard and is designed as an assassin with energy to give him his only real sustain. He can poke a bit, but of course he needs to go all in in order to be effective because he only has a minor slow for CC. Messora's Q can knock enemies around a bit using one cooldown instead of two like Zed would have to in order to get range for it. Zed's all about jumping in and dealing a lot of damage, using all of his cooldowns right away and getting out. Messora is about controlling the enemy a bit with her micro CC, varying for what she's trying to accomplish, which is something that's more mage-like. There's no genuine similarity to how Messora is set up to Zed. Just stop comparing her to champions that are designed to work a completely different way. Akali and now Zed? It's getting more and more absurd.

her kit doesn't fit that,she will go all in,if her numbers are too low to get a kill,then her kit is simply underpowered and her numbers would be increased,and then she will have immense targeted burst(perhaps a bit gated by somebody/herself landing a displacement(does that remind you of anybody else?)) with a short cc negation,she is a fizz/yasuo hybrid with some diana added on top,and her featherduster being a bit weaker than windwall/trollpoll will just be compensated with even more burst.

Her numbers can get her a kill, but it's not going to with only one item or two by itself unless she's really ahead. She has to snowball a bit, but as mentioned once before, more managable than the champions you keep mentioning. And all of this about her numbers having to compensate is purely your hypothetical assumption of rebalancing her. Not to mention that the "her featherduster being a bit weaker than windwall/trollpoll will just be compensated with even more burst" clearly screams of your bias of how her damage would have to be burst because it's not the same. You started out saying that Featherduster was as strong as those two skills, and now you're saying that because it's not she's surely to be buffed. No...take concepts as how they are, not what you think will be done to them if implemented just because you have a vendetta against certain champions.

On the topic of what she can do, of course she's not going to be supremely effective as a champion specifically designed for a role such as a tank, but she can still be a support that can help take damage with Featherduster and set up plays with all of her CC abilities. Wave clear shouldn't be a problem between her Q and/or an attack speed build, especially with a Ravenous Hydra. Having the potential to negate a bit of initial burst makes her a bit of a bruiser in some scenarios, mainly with an AS build. I mean her passive makes abilities more effective in different ways for a reason. Range-wise, CC-wise, defensive-wise, offensive-wise. Being an assassin may be what she's best at, but her kit makes it quite possible for her to play in top/mid/ or bottom lane.

manbearswine1 votes

the comparison to zed was to show what she needs to compete with him(which from the way you claim she is going to work,she doesn't have a chance),she definitely isn't similar to him(aside from being an all in assassin),whereas the comparison to akali is simply as the tier of cancer she will be,not in kits.

as to me now "suddenly" saying feather duster is slightly weaker than troll poll/windwall,i never said it was as strong,in fact it's obvious it isn't(windwall complete negates,and troll poll is invunerability,whereas feather duster negates cc and reduces damage,it's just the same concept of other hyper cancerous abilities).

and stop the talk of her a support,she stands no chance in bot lane,she will always be a stronger mid,her power lies in damage,she lacks survivability to be a tank support,and utility+range(compared to other supports,most obvious would be braum,how exactly isn't braum much better in every possible way?) to be a mage support.

as for top,you are sending an assassin...with no good escapes...into a long lane...against a bruiser/tank,you will be jungler food. stop fantasizing about roles she will never be good at,she will be played as an assassin,and she will be played mid.

Elphrihaim1 votes

the comparison to zed was to show what she needs to compete with him(which from the way you claim she is going to work,she doesn't have a chance),she definitely isn't similar to him(aside from being an all in assassin),whereas the comparison to akali is simply as the tier of cancer she will be,not in kits.

Messora has a chance against everybody. Her entire kit is built around playing well and letting you capitalize on just about anything that you do... if you do it well and are prepared both for a success and a failure.

And what do you mean by 'the tier of cancer'?! That phrase doesn't even make sense.

as to me now "suddenly" saying feather duster is slightly weaker than troll poll/windwall,i never said it was as strong,in fact it's obvious it isn't(windwall complete negates,and troll poll is invunerability,whereas feather duster negates cc and reduces damage,it's just the same concept of other hyper cancerous abilities).

No. No, no no. If Fizz' E was just invulnerability it'd be easier to deal with. Untargetability pops everything, so ALL classes are helpless until a short time AFTER Fizz lands.

And you should really define 'cancerous abilities', because that has no meaning by itself. >_>'

and stop the talk of her a support,she stands no chance in bot lane,she will always be a stronger mid,her power lies in damage,she lacks survivability to be a tank support,and utility+range(compared to other supports,most obvious would be braum,how exactly isn't braum much better in every possible way?) to be a mage support.

She can go bot. Everybody can go bot. Messora's strength lies in her versatility, which is very useful in a bot lane matchup-- especially if your team picks up Messora first in a draft pick, as she can cycle around to any lane and do some good in it when in the hands of skilled players.

as for top,you are sending an assassin...with no good escapes...into a long lane...against a bruiser/tank,you will be jungler food. stop fantasizing about roles she will never be good at,she will be played as an assassin,and she will be played mid.

No escapes? What about Q/W? You keep talking about her W as this ridiculously good tool, but now you're not letting her use that tool to fight? What sort of bias do you even HAVE?

Her Q is great for making some self-peel, too. Sure, she doesn't have a lot of mobility, but she really doesn't NEED to. She can survive on her own in any situation, and will always become a shadow to the assassins because of her utility.

So I don't see what you mean. I also don't see how you come to these conclusions... But most of all, I don't see how you can say that you never said it was as strong as Fizz' E when you in fact did so...

"we heard how much you love fizzes e,so we added something which is very similar"?

fizzes e is great at negating,and so is your suggested w,as to "being vulnerable from behind" that's BS,this game has no turnrate,the short duration would just mean the ability would be used to negate 1-2 very powerful abilities aimed at stopping you from bursting down a squshie,same way fizz e is used.

fizz has the same "problem"(it's only a weakness on paper,in practice fizz is unstoppable in large part due to this abomination of an ability),and as you can see from the description,it does last exactly as long as fizzes troll poll.

Might be out of chars, but... This logic train I can't follow. At all. :/ :\ :(

manbearswine1 votes

Messora has a chance against everybody. Her entire kit is built around playing well and letting you capitalize on just about anything that you do... if you do it well and are prepared both for a success and a failure.

what chance does she stand against zilean? kayle? hell i'm starting to question her chances against fizz.

And what do you mean by 'the tier of cancer'?! That phrase doesn't even make sense.

this game has champions who are better desgined,and champions who are poorly designed(cough fizz cough yasuo) and end up problems to gamehealth,the bigger of a problem you are,the higher up in the "cancer tier" you end up.(currently it's poppy then fizz/yasuo then akali/etc)

as to me now "suddenly" saying feather duster is slightly weaker than troll poll/windwall,i never said it was as strong,in fact it's obvious it isn't(windwall complete negates,and troll poll is invunerability,whereas feather duster negates cc and reduces damage,it's just the same concept of other hyper cancerous abilities).

And you should really define 'cancerous abilities', because that has no meaning by itself. >_>'

it's mostly a buzzword,i refer to it as when inappropriate abilities are placed on certain champions,the counterplay to assassins is supposed to be to hard cc them,which to plenty of champions can be only done through skillshots,which are awfully easy to avoid with fizz e,making that ability cancerous on fizz.

She can go bot. Everybody can go bot. Messora's strength lies in her versatility,

no she can't,and she definitely isn't versatile,everything she can do braum can do better.

No escapes? What about Q/W? You keep talking about her W as this ridiculously good tool, but now you're not letting her use that tool to fight? What sort of bias do you even HAVE? they are simply not enough,i want to see her survive a vi/kha/etc gank against mao/ali/lulu/whatever,a squishy in a long lane needs much more than that,think something like lissandras e,and being ranged. Her Q is great for making some self-peel, too. ...knocking people towards yourself is great for making self-peel?

So I don't see what you mean. I also don't see how you come to these conclusions... But most of all, I don't see how you can say that you never said it was as strong as Fizz' E when you in fact did so...

because it's once again aimed to achieve the same thing,the fact it grants less survivability will just be compensated with more burst,which is the only thing she can be good at with her current kit,she will still have to be counterpicked by point-click hard cc(or at least a snare).

Elphrihaim1 votes

what chance does she stand against zilean? kayle? hell i'm starting to question her chances against fizz.

Zilean? Well, hmm. I don't know, actually.

Against Kayle, though, Kayle doesn't always have her kit available. Messora could go in on her Qs and probably succeed well.

Fizz.. I don't know, but I don't think that, seeing as he's "cancer", it'd be a fair comparison ;)

this game has champions who are better desgined,and champions who are poorly designed(cough fizz cough yasuo) and end up problems to gamehealth,the bigger of a problem you are,the higher up in the "cancer tier" you end up.(currently it's poppy then fizz/yasuo then akali/etc)

Poppy isn't a problem regarding the game's 'Health'-- she's a hypercarry. Fizz and Yasuo are strong, but they're definitely not poorly designed (the opposite-- they're designed too well). They fulfill their objectives and do actually have risks.

it's mostly a buzzword,i refer to it as when inappropriate abilities are placed on certain champions,the counterplay to assassins is supposed to be to hard cc them,which to plenty of champions can be only done through skillshots,which are awfully easy to avoid with fizz e,making that ability cancerous on fizz.

Okay... I still don't understand. You even used a word to define itself. I still don't know what "cancerous" means, besides "like cancer". Which you've defined as something that is an inappropriate ability for a champion that causes them to be cancerous. ... ???????

no she can't,and she definitely isn't versatile,everything she can do braum can do better.

Braum has a knockup available at level 1? Braum has high damage output?

I think Messora has her own tools to offer a lane.

because it's once again aimed to achieve the same thing,the fact it grants less survivability will just be compensated with more burst,which is the only thing she can be good at with her current kit,she will still have to be counterpicked by point-click hard cc(or at least a snare).

Oh no! You think things can't be balanced because you're comparing them to things that you yourself admit are op, and saying that since Messora has less survivability than them she'll have more damage or CC than them.

This is League, not DotA2. DotA2 is where you balance things by making everything strong. Here, you actually balance things. *sigh* You're saying "Because Fizz and Yasuo are OP this champion will get buffs so that she's as OP as them since she's weaker than they are". Which is a hugely flawed argument. ><

Angeluslight2 votes

My goodness, how many times are you going to alter your arguments?

no she will not try to poke in a team fight(does zed do that?)

the comparison to zed was to show what she needs to compete with him

Yeah, no, you were comparing how they function, not how they lane or fight 1 on 1. And you didn't show anything; all you did was say that he doesn't poke in team fights. Yeah, because that's showtime for him--that's his opportunity to nail a high priority target.

what chance does she stand against zilean? kayle? hell i'm starting to question her chances against fizz.

Every champion has their counter, but your initial arguments were all about how Messora doesn't give the other champions a chance. Now you want to say she has too many counters. Just stop already. You're contradicting yourself all over the place that I don't even know what your point is anymore.

By the way, her Q's range is capable of harassing them just fine. So her Featherduster won't block all of their attacks. Good, that means she's not "cancerous." She can still chain CC them in a burst with Featherduster as an offense after wearing them down enough with Q. It's like you're not even looking at all of the numbers, but rather just saying stuff.

no she can't,and she definitely isn't versatile,everything she can do braum can do better.

Ever heard of a kill lane? Of course she's not nearly as tanky as Braum. Braum was made specifically for bottom lane. But Messora can zone a lot better with her Q, defend with W when necessary, and do a combo to CC her targets to set up kills. And she might even be possible as an ADC like Fiora, which I happen to know does quite well with Leona support. Probably even other supports. The point is, Messora can harass with her Q, and when the support goes in for a nab, Messora doesn't have to use all of her own CC right away, saving it to prevent escapes. While bottom lane may not be the easiest lane for her, she has the kit to creatively make it viable.

This whole thing started with you saying that her Featherduster was too powerful, and attributed it to being just as good as Fizz's E and Yasuo's Wind Wall. Now you're saying she cannot do well enough with it and saying that she might be compensated with more burst, an assumption you put on the table yourself. Thus you're the one making her overpowered now.

Overall, you seem to be neglecting her CC, which comes mostly in micro form, but can add up when put together, therefore giving her time to deal damage while denying the other person a chance to interrupt, if she executes her combo well enough. Overtime, that burst becomes more powerful with her items and also her passive. Because her burst is very CC-reliant, she won't need to be given this "compensation" you keep calling out. The combo setup is in her abilities, and the damage is added on as she buys and maxes her skills. She doesn't need compensation. She makes it herself with the utilities at her disposal. And that's what you cannot understand because you keep saying Fizz this and Yasuo that when they scale very, very hard and yet when Messora is more balanced out than they are, you're constantly putting her on the same level as them with this "compensation" thing. You can't just change someone's concept to what it isn't and complain about what you changed it to on your own.

Messora is a utility-equipped slate. You build her for damage, she's gonna deal damage alright. You build her to take some hits, Featherduster is gonna make those items do her justice. You build her for CDR/Mana sustain harass, she's going to zone people out with her Q. Each strength comes with its respective weakness. If she's built to dive first and setup plays, she's not going to be effective on her own and must stay with the group because she doesn't have the damage for fighting by herself (aka not assassin mode). If she's built for damage, she's going to wait for her team to make the setup and do the followup (aka actual assassin mode). If you want Messora to be a fighter, give her attack speed and sustain items.

Angeluslight2 votes

Take Messora as she is, and quit changing her to this Yasuo/Fizz/etc tier of "cancer." And most of all, stop flip-flopping your premise of comparisons because your points are getting more and more conflicting and fragmented with each post. All you've done is bring up other champions and make incomplete statements while straying far from your initial point. You can't just say this and that are "cancerous" and then try to redefine a concept by putting your own "compensation" for damage and say your points are relative. You keep ignoring so much of her utility while placing such a burden on one skill instead of how everything can be emphasized in their own ways to suit a need.

manbearswine1 votes

she simply doesn't have as much utiltiy as you think her to have,her ult is solid,but she is just gonna use it once in a fight regardless of her you build her,the rest of her kit provides very little utility to her team.

Angeluslight2 votes

0 times,you just keep twisting what i say.

You started off by saying Messora was just as cancerous as Fizz and Yasuo, to maybe slightly less down to Akali-tier, to not as good as Zed. From untouchable to inescapable to ineffective. That's a lot of change.

and for her it isn't? her entire kit screams "ALL IN",she isn't gonna poke in team fights,she is gonna go ham.

In team fights, sure she can all in. But she doesn't need to go all in to be effective. She can peel for herself/allies using her CC while throwing her Q in the fray. Zed cannot do that. Zed is based off of his ability to effectively position himself while Messora positions her enemies.

no,the point is that she has the same counters as fizz/yasuo,and she screws the same champs they do as well.

And yet her ability doesn't negate the damage completely, plus can be interrupted, to which you responded by taking her down from "Fizz and Yasuo cancer" to "Akali-tier cancer." The fact that she's more manageable that ways means she's not all so harsh with the "she MUST be counterpicked or it's auto-win for her" as you keep driving at.

ever heard of leona? leona can both get kills way easier and will stomp all over her in a 2v2.

Messora can negate Leona's E. Not to mention she herself can't knock targets around, but rather keep them still. Leona cannot zone because she does not have poke. Leona and Messora can both lockdown a target for a time, but Messora can counter her with range, disengage, projectile block (which is useful against ADCs too). They each set up plays in their own ways, but Messora can deal damage without receiving it (or very little) and can shield her partner a lot better. She's a more aggressive and active support because she doesn't have to commit going all in every single time to do something.

braums q is way better poke,go ahead,look at the numbers,waaaaaaay better,he can also peel waaaaaaaaay better than her again,she makes as much sense as support udyr.

Considering he's a tank, that would only make sense. However, Messora's slow from her E and knockbacks from her Q and W aren't there for show. As for the damage, Elph already pointed out that it's not "waaaaaaay better." Also, Udyr doesn't have range, nor the amount of CC Messora has, so saying that about him was pointless.

not at all,i said it's cancerous,i said it just further promotes the current meta,and further screwed off meta champions.

Your points consist of Fizz and Yasuo being able to deal heavy assassin damage while being immune to CC. Then you switched to Akali who has no CC immunity and a lot more mobility, but also said that Messora was not as much as "point and click burst" as her. Lack of counter play this, cancerous that, but at the end of all of it, she's not those champions and does not share their extreme scaling, which is arguably what everyone complains about because they can do very well with even just one item.

her cc is all melee(aside only from q,which is an unreliable skillshot,and is a micro cc),trust me,it's not the damage from enemy tanks an assassin should be worried about.

She's a melee champion. And I don't know why you bring up tanks as if I ever mentioned Messora going directly for tanks. Her Featherduster is effective against a lot of damage in general and will help against the high priority targets she'd be going for in the first place. If she's targeted by a tank herself, she can disengage with E and Q, which can't miss when she's that close to her target or her perusing enemy tank.

her base combo includes 4 E's in it(full ratio on her combo is 3.8),and that's just from her own cc(imagine if thresh lands a hook),all chained through hard cc,her scaling as you suggested makes fizz look like an early game champion.

Her R doesn't proc her E. She'd be a bit too busy finishing her ultimate. So about 2 seconds of CC overall. .5 seconds from both parts of her Q, .25 from E, 1.25 from R. And Fizz's scaling makes himself an early snowballing champion. You don't need Messora to compare that.

Angeluslight2 votes

(part 2)

no,she is just gonna melt.

Right. Because 40% damage reduction for 1 second backed up by armor/magic resist wouldn't go well together.

nope,low range and low speed,not gonna happen.

800 - 900 units is not low range. And the speed isn't that slow.

yes,either go full damage,or get at least 4 reports.

You realize that fighters and assassins don't need to go full damage to do their job, right? That would be glass cannon, which is effective, but not if you're going for better sustain. Armor can go really well with Messora's Featherduster, whereas Fizz's E and Yasuo's Wind Wall cannot be benefited. As for damage, of course Messora can use damage items well. Very well, considering AD and AP items are both open to her. She's just not limited to them.

she simply doesn't have as much utiltiy as you think her to have,her ult is solid,but she is just gonna use it once in a fight regardless of her you build her,the rest of her kit provides very little utility to her team.

  • 4 knockups/backs
  • Slow that turns into an AOE slow
  • Q range increase
  • Projectile-absorbing/CC-negating wall
  • Teleport attack (E)
  • Capability to reset E
  • 25% crit chance buff with Maxed R
  • Base attack range increase to 175 and then to 200
  • Mini stun at end of R

Depends on how you count it, but that's at least 12. That's no shortage.

While a lot of her utility would benefit herself, she can still lockdown enemies, knock them toward teammates, or snag them at a distance with her Q (especially with something like Rylai's for the slow). I'm sure Messora's team wouldn't complain about having some nice AOE CC/damage/Featherduster protection.

manbearswine1 votes

Right. Because 40% damage reduction for 1 second backed up by armor/magic resist wouldn't go well together.

40% damage reduction for 1 second for tank is nothing,just look at braum,higher base stats,armor+mr steroids,and a damage reduction that lasts 3-4 seconds,she is gonna melt,that ability is only useful(and cancerous) on an assassin,who wants to kill his target quick,and actually is threatened by being cced.

800 - 900 units is not low range. And the speed isn't that slow.

800-900 is medium at best,just compare it to other skillshots,and the speed is VERY slow,it's barely quicker than anivias Q,and is definitely one of the slowest skillshots in the game(quite possibly second slowest,if we don't count things like namis tidal wave).

You realize that fighters and assassins don't need to go full damage to do their job, right? That would be glass cannon, which is effective, but not if you're going for better sustain. Armor can go really well with Messora's Featherduster, whereas Fizz's E and Yasuo's Wind Wall cannot be benefited. As for damage, of course Messora can use damage items well. Very well, considering AD and AP items are both open to her. She's just not limited to them.

she might go for one defensive item,like even adcs do,but that's about it,for the most part she is gonna be glass canon.

she simply doesn't have as much utiltiy as you think her to have,her ult is solid,but she is just gonna use it once in a fight regardless of her you build her,the rest of her kit provides very little utility to her team.

  • 4 knockups/backs

read your own kit,her scythe only knocks back on the way back,it doesn't knock on the way forward,and aside from the one on her ult,all are short.

  • Slow that turns into an AOE slow

which requires a squishy to jump on a target,very weak utility.

  • Projectile-absorbing/CC-negating wall

most projectiles won't go past one target anyway,so meh,cc negation for a tank again isn't very interesting.

  • Teleport attack (E)

that's not utility,just wtf

  • Capability to reset E

again not utility.

  • 25% crit chance buff with Maxed R

not utility.

  • Base attack range increase to 175 and then to 200

not utility. utility is something your team benefits from,auras,shields,heals,cc,debuffs not steroids for yourself,is tristanas e utility now?

  • Mini stun at end of R

already looked at her cc,you are counting things twice.

Depends on how you count it, but that's at least 12. That's no shortage.

that's absolute garbage compared to what janna,leona,thresh,zilean,morgana bring,morganas Q alone is more cc than she has in her entire kit,whereas being a faster,longer ranged skillshot than her Q,on top of morganas slow+stun on ult,and the fact her magic immunity will rarely last for less than a second and is cast on allies,oh,and morgana is ranged,let me guess "morgana op" should i compare her to thresh then? janna? she is a trash tier support.

While a lot of her utility would benefit herself, she can still lockdown enemies, knock them toward teammates, or snag them at a distance with her Q (especially with something like Rylai's for the slow). I'm sure Messora's team wouldn't complain about having some nice AOE CC/damage/Featherduster protection.

if it comes at the cost of having her instead of morgana/thresh/etc,they sure as hell will.

manbearswine1 votes

You started off by saying Messora was just as cancerous as Fizz and Yasuo, to maybe slightly less down to Akali-tier, to not as good as Zed. From untouchable to inescapable to ineffective. That's a lot of change.

no,kit is compared to fizz and yasuo,akali is just there as a tier,zed is mentioned as competition,she is still akali tier cancer.

In team fights, sure she can all in. But she doesn't need to go all in to be effective.

nope,her peel just isn't good enough to justify staying behind,she will go all in.

And yet her ability doesn't negate the damage completely, plus can be interrupted, to which you responded by taking her down from "Fizz and Yasuo cancer" to "Akali-tier cancer." The fact that she's more manageable that ways means she's not all so harsh with the "she MUST be counterpicked or it's auto-win for her" as you keep driving at.

being more manageable than "not manageable at all" isn't saying much,she is akali tier cancer,as she is simply slightly less bad than fizz/yasuo.

Messora can negate Leona's E. Not to mention she herself can't knock targets around, but rather keep them still. Leona cannot zone because she does not have poke. Leona and Messora can both lockdown a target for a time, but Messora can counter her with range, disengage, projectile block (which is useful against ADCs too). They each set up plays in their own ways, but Messora can deal damage without receiving it (or very little) and can shield her partner a lot better. She's a more aggressive and active support because she doesn't have to commit going all in every single time to do something.

it's the same way leona-thresh goes,mess up once and you die,just that well,you aren't tanky,or ranged,and have less utility overall,and cause less threat than thresh,and considering leonas e has 875 range and ~1500 ms,she zones way harder than you,oh,and she won't have mana issues.

Considering he's a tank, that would only make sense. However, Messora's slow from her E and knockbacks from her Q and W aren't there for show. As for the damage, Elph already pointed out that it's not "waaaaaaay better." Also, Udyr doesn't have range, nor the amount of CC Messora has, so saying that about him was pointless.

what you want something less stupid? galio has better poke,better utility,better cc,better base stats.

Your points consist of Fizz and Yasuo being able to deal heavy assassin damage while being immune to CC. Then you switched to Akali who has no CC immunity and a lot more mobility, but also said that Messora was not as much as "point and click burst" as her. Lack of counter play this, cancerous that, but at the end of all of it, she's not those champions and does not share their extreme scaling, which is arguably what everyone complains about because they can do very well with even just one item.

again,her scaling is in fact far stronger than anything in this game,you want to deal with current numbers,fine,the burst of her full combo is beyond being a complete joke.

She's a melee champion. And I don't know why you bring up tanks as if I ever mentioned Messora going directly for tanks. Her Featherduster is effective against a lot of damage in general and will help against the high priority targets she'd be going for in the first place. If she's targeted by a tank herself, she can disengage with E and Q, which can't miss when she's that close to her target or her perusing enemy tank.

she will disengage by jumping on her target? or by knocking them back towards her?

Her R doesn't proc her E. She'd be a bit too busy finishing her ultimate. So about 2 seconds of CC overall. .5 seconds from both parts of her Q, .25 from E, 1.25 from R. so that's 3.2 then(without anything from her team that is),though you seem to imply her Q knocks twice,which is back to 3.8 then,regardless,it's completely insane.

vi comes to your lane,ults,E->Q->E->E->W->E->R->E,oh and vi throws q,prompting another E somewhere,you can be maokai under your own turrent,you still will be dead. that's a 5.0 ap ratio combo,oh and best part? it's all chained hard cc.

Angeluslight1 votes

Of course Messora is not going to compare to Braum's tankiness. He's designed to specifically be a tank. Messora would be an aggressive support, not a pure tank. Featherduster can prevent the other team from engaging and can be used in a combo to setup an engage of her own. As I said, bottom lane would not be the easiest for her, but she can make for a good kill-lane. It's not like she'd build 100% pure tank.

800-900 range is not very small, and the projectile speed can be upped, if anything.

3* knockbacks/ups; my mistake for thinking about a previous draft of the Q Still enough.

An AOE slow does not require a squishy target. It would be preferably used on them, but nothing's to say she can't pounce on a tanky target to slow them and knock them back with Featherduster for effective peel.

most projectiles won't go past one target anyway,so meh,cc negation for a tank again isn't very interesting.

Some projectiles do, and that's enough. Messora is not mainly a tank. And it's not about an opinion of what's interesting, but what's effective. And you sure found CC-negation for a tank interesting enough to mention Poppy's ult early on.

How is a mobility skill, especially a flash-type, not a utility? It can even cross terrain if a visible target is available.

If you don't want to call the reset aspect of her E a utility, that's fine, but it's too useful not to make note of, considering the slow effect involved.

If you want to talk strictly utilities that can benefit allies, her 3 knockups, at least 3 slows from her own kit (2 resets and 1 non-reset cast if all goes well), and a projectile block should be enough.

I don't have a problem comparing her to Morgana, and I certainly don't call her overpowered since she really needs that Q. Morgana's ability to handle her own revolves around having such a lockdown capability. She's primarily a mage. Same with Janna, only she's primarily a support, so it's more about survivability than locking down. Thresh is practically all support, too, relying heavily on landing hooks to set up engages, and is also capable of good escapes. The point of kill lanes is that their "supports" aren't conventional supports, and are aggressive champions that deal damage and have some utility beneficial for securing kills. Annie, being a very aggressive champion where all of her skills do damage except for one, is used in such lanes. Her only team-benefit utility is her stun, but she's good at zoning and setting up kills with her stun and bursts. Messora, being the hybrid she is, is a bit of zoning, defense, lockdown, and burst. It's an assassin-style support. People have done it with even Zed, probably the most assassin of all champions, and his only team-beneficiary utility is a slow.

Bottom line is that she's not designed specifically for support, so can't be compared to traditional supports, but she has the kit for a kill-lane.

Instead of continuing this pointless jumping around, especially since numbers can be changed as concepts grow further, I'm going to go back to the core of how this all started:

What the hell is that w? "we heard how much you love fizzes e,so we added something which is very similar"? no,just no.

Messora is not Fizz. Featherduster is not Playful/Trickster. It's not invincibility; it's far from impossible to fight against. That's all there is to it.

Angeluslight1 votes

yes she fucking will go full tank,because damage needs penetration,and further steroids to make it work,if she goes bot she will go full tank,she cannot afford to go damage,she is already lacking gold,going anything but tank items will rend her 100% useless as she will melt in 1 second instead of 3.

Iceborn Gauntlet? Rod of the Ages? Liandry's Torment? Zhonya's Hourglass? Rylai's Scepter? HP counts for a lot of tankiness on top of armor. As an aggressive kill-laner, she's going to disorient and damage enemies to make it difficult for the other team to want to counter as her partner follows up for the kill.

As for gold, that's what gold income items are for. And kill-lanes get more gold in general because they're meant to get more kills than usual bottom lane fights. Once they get ahead, the other side gets shut down harder, limiting the other team in exp. and gold, while Messora's natural scaling quickly becomes enough for taking more damage from them. And when the lane is won, she can roam and set up kills for other lanes.

for comparison leonas zenith blade is 875,that's pretty damn small,and now you are willing to change numbers?

They're both melee champions. And who said I wasn't willing to change numbers? How else do concepts grow? My thing against your idea of compensation was that it was purely damage, namely for bursts, instead of touching up other things like ranges, CC-types/durations, etc. Vastly different from merely increasing damage alone.

1 is her ult,which again,will be used once in a fight regardless of build,1 briefly knocks the target towards herself,one briefly knocks the target back,so building her cdr for her w/q is just a trash build which will barely provide anything.

It's enough to disrupt and/or escape with. CDR just means she'll be able to do it more often, which would be useful for harass/disengage/engages. CDR items also come with a range of other things she can make use of with her hybrid scaling, such as mana sustain, attack speed, armor penetration, damage amplification, armor/magic resist, etc. She's capable of using just about any and all of them.

so you want to peel of the tank? or perhaps you want to jump in the face of a bruiser? see how much a slow will prevent him from melting you.

If they are already on her or an enemy, every bit is going to help. Chances are they've already used their engage abilities to get that close in the first place. If they're already on someone's face, jumping on them for a slow and a knockback can give enough of a window for a getaway. The rest of the peel would come from allies or just killing them depending on how things are.

not really,it simply is very weak utility,as it affects very few champs and even those it affects it doesn't affect particularly hard

Yet you were on all about how it screws over Lux. It's also effective against Ahri, Orriana, Syndra. It's enough to make a difference by being there.

because utility is about helping your team,not yourself,otherwise syndras ult is utility,"how is a burst spell not utility,it can delete enemies".

That's purely damage not adding onto anything. You could say it sets up for a much wider stun when combined with Scatter the Weak, but I never counted pure damage from the core point of an ability. The closest was the critical damage buff from Messora's maxed R, and because it's a buff, not a burst.

because a squishy doesn't jump on a target to slow it,the reward is small and the risk is huge.

Using it by itself in most cases, sure. But it's meant to combine with other things. It can even be further expanded with an item that slows targets for better team setups. It's certainly a thing now with Talon's nerf from silence. And no, I'm not comparing her directly with Talon overall--I'm merely saying that it exists.

Angeluslight1 votes

(part 2)

morganas q is a bigger threat than messoras entire kit,it also has a bigger range and movespeed than her Q,you should have a problem comparing her to morgana,as she can't hold a candle to her.

Morgana's Q is what makes her viable to begin with. Of course it's so powerful because her entire offense relies on it. Messora is capable of blocking it, and although her CC may not be as effective against Morgana because of her Black Shield, Messora can still bypass it with AD damage while weakening it with AP as Morgana tries to survive for her cooldown. Neither champion would have their respective abilities ready to snare/block each and every time, so I think it would actually be an interesting fight between the two in mid lane.

Again, Messora's Q's range and speed can always be better adjusted for its purpose. No champion concept's numbers are going to be concrete until after a lot of feedback and work into them.

no,annies power lies in reliability,you have a guaranteed 1.75 second aoe stun,add to that her immense RELIABLE burst and range,she is a lane bully,and due to her range can actually build damage,on top of still having more utility(she will get another rotation on a reliable aoe stun soon enough,whereas your only good cc is your ult).

That comes from Annie being a mage. My point of mentioning Annie was that she's aggressive and her setups are effective for bottom lane. Messora has a different approach because she has a team defense whereas Annie does not. Messora would be more defensive while harassing with her Q until opportunities open up where she can dive in after the other team misses a cooldown and such. Not consistent ranged bursts.

no reliability,no range,squishy,trash tier kill lane.

I'm sure the same has been said about many champions that wind up breaking the metas anyway. The only true way of finding out is by actually trying it out.

so now numbers can change? yet when i said she will have to be rebalanced to be focused on all ins you insisted to look at her current numbers,that's the whole point of the argument i'm making.

Again, I never said numbers can't change, but your "compensation" was only defined as more burst damage rather than exploring the numbers actually listed. Simply saying "she'll be given more damage" is an assumption and not on the constructive level. And this was before her ranges and such were even becoming a topic because you were so focused on one ability.

really then,fizz trickster can be fought with hard cc he can't react to,this is exactly the same way featherduster will be dealt with,featherduster is nearly as bad as playful/trickster,it shares the need for point-click hard cc to be dealt with.

The trick with trickster is that it can be used to evade more than just CC and also serves as a highly efficient gap-closer. It can even be used to avoid ground traps altogether. It's not so much that it stops CC, but moves him over terrain and traps, while popping projectiles with no effect to him at all. When Fizz is using that ability, he's getting a free pass from absolutely everything. Such is not at all the case with Messora.

Angeluslight2 votes

Everything keeps dancing around issues that can be handled with scaling and some changes/add-ons. She already has a kit with potential for a variety of ways of handling. Things like adding on a knockback to the first part of her Q (along with altered range/projectile speed) give her a bit more CC/peel/reliability. Things like perhaps giving Featherduster's knockback more distance can set up even better plays with E and give her more survivability. Originally, her E used to be a stun instead of a slow, and can possibly be worked out to be a stun once again depending on other changes, most likely effecting her reset. Overall scaling, not just damage, but in base armor and/or HP, can be altered for better durability that would enable better use for armor so she wouldn't need too many items to emphasize the role she'd aim for.

She'll always be part assassin, but her kit doesn't limit her to a small corner of play. Her itemization would have a larger effect on her as she's not very limited in item choices. While her primary and best function will always be damage, she's very capable of disrupting far more enemies at once than the typical assassin. While my definition of utility is collective on what can be "utilized" in terms of overall functionality, and not limited to what teammates can use for themselves, Messora's kit can still be capable of a supportive burst, especially since she has displacements of which normal assassins aren't known for. Numbers can be worked out, but her kit isn't extremely far from being the variable it's designed to be. You act and criticize her as if everything is set in stone and she's already in the game. It's a champion concept--a work in progress. While you can say this and that aren't effective enough for so and so, it's nothing that cannot be improved upon while staying pretty close to how it is now. Start getting creative and constructive rather than patronizing, and see the potential Messora holds.

Elphrihaim1 votes

Begface:

a) More attack speed on Featherduster! <3<3<3

b) Did you ever at any point consider giving Messora an on-hit steroid, besides Critical Strike Chance on her ultimate? I'm just curious.

c) A point-blank area-of-effect range of 200 seems awfully small for an ultimate. But perhaps I'm underestimating how much mobility she can have?

d) Since it's harder to hit a skillshot that's returning after it goes out, maybe you could increase the Magic Damage portion of Harvest some?

e) Since it's harder to hit a skillshot that has fixed-range when it's moving at the same speed especially since it has CC applied to the RETURN only, can Harvest also get a speed increase at max rank so that it takes the same amount of time to travel out and back as before the max rank?

f) Quadra-post. Can I ask you to read it, please?

FACEPALM201 votes

I was in the mood to draw something so I got on here looking for something to inspire me and wow... as soon as I started reading about Messora, already being a huge fan of bursty hybrid assassins, I fell in love with this champion concept. The more I read, the more inspired I became and the more ideas popped into my head, I will definitely be spending today and probably many more days producing concept art for Messora.

Angeluslight1 votes

That's awesome to hear (er...read). I'm glad you like her and I would appreciate any art contributions you have to offer. I have to take her kit into the "workshop" tonight to sort out numbers and such, but she should come out being even better with her multi-role potential that she was designed for.

Thanks for taking a look at Messora and I am eagerly looking forward to your artwork!

P.S. I don't know what specifically catches your attention in a concept, but the other two I posted have their own unique aspects with a lot of work and detail put into them as well. Their links are at the end of the original post here, if you're interested.

ZlGZAG1 votes

I call op

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

I call op

wrt what? Angelus has seemed to vanish, but I'm always in all his threads ;)

Rito Jericho1 votes

I have to say that I really like this champ concept. My only real concern is her ult, which unfortunately seems a lot like Vi's ult if you ask me. If you can think of anything different, a part of me thinks that MIGHT be a safe move.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

I have to say that I really like this champ concept. My only real concern is her ult, which unfortunately seems a lot like Vi's ult if you ask me. If you can think of anything different, a part of me thinks that MIGHT be a safe move.

"R - Reap and Sow (Circular AOE): Messora soars upward while swinging her scythe overhead, knocking all enemies in range up with her. At the peak of the jump, Messora counterswings her weapon, knocking her targets back to the ground and stunning them for .25 seconds. Range (Circular): (200) Knockback: (100)"

re: This is PBAoE

Vi's Ultimate is a target dash that CCs everybody in a line between Vi and her target.

Rito Jericho1 votes

Okay. Now that I actually see the difference, that concern I had is gone. I doubt I need to say this again, but I really do like this concept.

WP Rito1 votes

Is this Project still alive? Because if it is https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6l_GDMO3JhOWEI4bjQ0cThGQWc

Angeluslight1 votes

Thanks for the art!

Unfortunately, I left the Boards when the Concepts and Creations thread was found to be highly unaccommodating, to say the least, to the actual and original purpose from the old Forums. I haven't worked on this or my other two concepts for a considerably long time, and do not intend to except in the extremely unlikely case that they get overwhelming support. Thanks, though.

WP Rito1 votes

Well i'm sorry to hear that, but did you completely stop making champion concepts?

Angeluslight1 votes

I did. As I mentioned before, the Boards are extremely unaccommodating to what this thread was founded on. Many people can, and do, downvote concepts without even so much as reading them. It's also hard to get any comments when the place is flooded with irrelevant posts that don't even belong here. Not to mention that skin ideas triumph widely over champion concepts now, which would have been nice if they split the two into their own sections. And of course, with the art preview the Boards offer, concepts don't thrive at all unless they have a high-quality picture at the helm, which provides an unfair ground with the whole "judging a book by its cover" deal, regardless of the quality of the champion concept itself.

It's a far cry from what it used to be on the original Forums, and I do not find it worth the effort anymore.

Edit: I will say, however, that Ephrial and Raisiel will make another appearance in a different way, in time.

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