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Vayne Rework Concept

Stacona··2 votes·2,076 views

This is aimed to improve Vayne's player satisfaction, try to reduce toxicity, grant Vayne more team usefulness, and allow her to get through the early game.

  1. Grant Vayne more active feeling abilities, while keeping her entirely basic attacked focused at the same time.

  2. Grant Tumble's attack to a single target line skill shot instead. This make it feel better for Vayne to use, even though it requires more skill being a skill shot, but the reason to have it as a skill shot is to increase the range outside of her attack range to last hit minions from afar which helps her survive the laning phase. [Clarification: Would be a second cast after the dash, use while on cooldown.]

  3. Grant Vayne two different builds: One for burstiness / marksman-assassin and one for tank busting, splitting them up just makes her more balanced so she has to choose how you want to play Vayne with drastically different styles, rather than be able to slaughter tanks and squishies alike. [So next to no base damage for Silver Bolts and add in a very high ability power ratio, this allows it to only kill tanks by going for this build and attack damage with crits has the burst to kill squishies - especially stunning the target with Condemn.]

  4. Silver Bolts become her new passive and W is freed up to become a more interesting ability that combos with Condemn, this allows to also reduce Condemn's power since the stun can be more consistent. This grants player satisfaction, allowing for a very satisfying combo for the player, so since it feels better for the player it can have less overall power which makes it feel better when playing against Vayne (feels less cheap).

Attack Range: 500 units Attack Speed: 0.694 +1.5% per level Attack Damage: Low Movement: 340 units per second

Silver Bolts (Passive):

Vayne applies a Silver Bolt to her main attack target for 4 seconds on hit, only one target can receive Silver Bolts at a time.

After a target receives 3 Silver Bolts, then they detonate and deal 2%(+4.5% per 100AP) of the target's maximum health as bonus true damage against champions.

Additionally, minions and monsters are dealt 10(+50%AP) bonus true damage on hit, double damage if Silver Bolts were detonated.

Tumble (Q):

Cooldown: 6 seconds; Cost: 30 mana; Range: 350 / 900 units

1st Cast: Vayne dashes in the target direction.

2nd Cast: While on cooldown, Vayne launches a basic attack in the target direction, dealing 20% increased damage and reducing Tumble's cooldown by 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds if it hits a target.

Night Wall (W):

Cooldown: 14/13/12/11/10 seconds; Cost: 50 mana; Range: 0 or 1000 units

Vayne unleashes a 500 units wide moving wall that travels 500 units over time in a straight line, remaining in play for 4 seconds. This wall will stop enemies on contact, enemies that pass through it are disarmed, grounded, and slowed by 55/60/65/70/75% for 2 seconds.

If Vayne unleashes the wall from her location, then it moves out. If Vayne unleashes the wall 1000 units from her, then it moves in.

Condemn (E):

Cooldown: 16/14.5/13/11.5/10 seconds; Cost: 75 mana; Range: 550 units

Vayne uses her large crossbow and fires a large, heavy bolt at the target enemy, knocking it back 400 units and dealing 15/20/25/30/35(+100%AD) physical damage and applying 1 Silver Bolt.

If the target collides with terrain or is stopped, then they are dealt double damage and stunned for 1.5 seconds.

Final Hour (R):

Cooldown: 120/90/60 seconds; Cost: 100 mana; Range: Global / 2500 units

Vayne marks the target enemy champion for death for the next 7 seconds, revealing a large area around it and applying True Sight against it. While the target is marked and near it, Vayne moves 90/110/130% faster towards it.

UPDATE NOTES:

Night Wall: Cooldown increased to 14/13/12/11/10 from 13/12/11/10/9 seconds Duration increased to 4 from 2.5 seconds Movement speed reduced to 125 units per second from 200 units per second Wall is no longer enemy impassable terrain, which means it no longer pushes enemies with it Wall still stops enemies, whether enemy dashes or friendly knock-backs

Wall now disarms, grounds, and slows by 55/60/65/70/75% for 2 seconds, creating a helpless victim for the slaughter (Condemn stun will override these effects)

Condemn: Now notes applies stun and double damage on terrain OR if the target is stopped

(Has an additional benefit of working with other stops like a friendly Veigar's Event Horizon.)

Final Hour: Invisibility on Tumble dash removed.

(Gave W a disarm, this will be more appreciated by the player and make Vayne less annoying to go against while disarm and invis serving the same purpose against basic attackers [but now exposes her to mages like Annie's Q].)

9 Comments

David 7771 votes

Passive AP ratio is really obscene (can deal nearly 50% HP as true damage @ 1000 AP). W is weird and doesn't really fit with her temathic. R is pretty underwhelming.

The points you made regarding her need for a rework are fine but the final concept looks worse than her original one.

Stacona1 votes

You will NEVER reach 1000 AP ever even with 3 Fire Dragons and its double Elder Dragon Buff and Baron Nashor (in which case you won the game already). 500 AP is the realistic number to balance for as an end game, late game build, keeping in mind you no longer have your flat damage so you are committing to tank busting and sacrificing your ability to kill squishies, it is a very elegant solution to balance out Vayne and create two very distinct play styles from your build choice.

Then there is a hybrid build which makes you good at both killing tanks and squishies, but excel at neither, a lot more room for skill expression just with a small change like this!

W is "no escapes" what is better for a bounty hunter than to corner off her foe from escaping? W 0 range cast is a self-peel tool, keeping evil away from her. Both casts go with her kit to combo everything together, whether to keep evil away from her or kill them by cutting off their escape route, making something both for her kit and her theme.

R is a more impressive version of her passive that feels a lot better for the user, also vision is a very powerful utility, especially for a marksman and even more-so for Vayne - so zooming at your target at a longish range and keeping them on your sights is a very powerful tool and something the player will appreciate (bonus attack damage is invisible power). And then it still grants Tumble invisibility with the more appropriate brief invis duration to still serve its purpose while making it less obnoxious to go against.

Overall, this kit is significantly "weaker" than her current power, but her win rate will go up especially in high elo because the utility granted will help fix her struggles and granting her usefulness outside of damage. Low elo should be less oppressive since bad players are bad at utilizing utility effects, but they abuse raw damage a lot harder.

(I might have went a bit too far in stripping away power for my example, but the concept is still sound where more appreciated effects and more utility just creates a more viable Vayne and healthier Vayne for the game. Plus this adds skill expression which is something Vayne massively lacks being such a one-dimensional champion [lack of skill expression creates toxicity since the only thing you can do does not work the player gets frustrated, but if you have play options then the player can choose a different tactic that will work instead of always failing at the only thing the kit allows you to do - frustrations creates toxicity])

The Goodest Boy1 votes

Okay- personally, I really enjoy this little rework.

The Q is very cool- a simple improvement on her current Q that makes it feel/look a lot better. It also brings some much lacking skill-expression to her kit outside of kiting.

The W is... very interesting. A very unique idea I don't think I've seen done before. I love the concept thematically and the cast paradigm is really cool. I just think that giving an ADC an ability that amounts to a piece of terrain and a hard, 2.5 second AOE knock back is a horrid idea. Maybe simplify it a bit: doesn't count as terrain and doesn't push people, but applies a slow to anyone walking through it. Or, gives vayne a speed boost for strategically kiting through it. (It would still work with condemn btw- just wouldn't be a real wall)

E is the same, though starting at a 1.5 second stun may be a little crazy. Maybe have it scale up with level?

The R thematically sounds really really cool. I'm imagining you ult them, and some kind of demon/vayne related symbol appears above their head like a Kayn ult but more dramatic, and it shines a cleansing site in a circle around them. let's you know that Vayne has chosen YOU to die.

I have 2 giant problems with this kit: usually when you rework a champion, the main goal is to iron out any massive problems they have and modernize their kit. You've modernized her kit, but have still kept her 2 MOST problematic elements that people despise about vayne: her constant %max hp true damage (which is nearly impossible to balance realistically) and her R invisibility.

If you were ever to take another pass at this rework, I'd focus on updating those part's of her kit specifically.

Still, cool concepts! :)

Stacona1 votes

It is not a knock back, does not disrupt, it just pushes enemies with it but they can still move around it - the wall moves slowly over the entire duration (it disappears after 500 units traveled). Only really acts as a knock back when stunned into it, but the true knock back is her E.

Push and knock-back are not the same thing, it also moves so slowly and has only two placement ranges that you will never get caught by it anyways unless combo'd into it. Imagine a wall of minions pushing you, you can still move, but you need to move around the minions. ~ W - perhaps I will change it a bit.

E has always been a flat 1.5 seconds stun, the knock-back range is reduced, significantly less base damage, and higher ratio and ratio is total AD. W-Q-E allows for more consistent stuns, so shaved off some power from E in its base damages and knock-back range. The cast range was also decreased (mainly because I lowered the attack range from 550 to 500, new Q damage is the better trade-off for skilled play for surviving the laning phase and even get off some medium range poke damage [or kite backwards harass]).

R - Some kind of mark happens on the target to signify that you are being hunted. Besides for keeping invis on Q dashes, this is a lot more appreciated value since it is super noticeable the large movement gain and thematically fits the hunter (and silver bolts) a lot better with focusing down that one target [mark is global, movement range is 2500, movement of course is going in only - but still has usefulness to scout an enemy and can spot nearby enemies around them with the large reveal range (or prevent invisibility for a single target that is marked)].

As far as gameplay against goes:

SILVER BOLTS:

Base damage greatly lowered. Ability Power ratio added, juicy enough to make dedicated AP builds worth it, with on hit minion/monster damage to last hit and push easier with an AP build (double damage silver bolt procs to help kill epic monsters as AP).

What this does is makes it worthless when going AD Vayne, but AP Vayne has a strong tank busting identity, forcing the player to choose what they value more for that game between killing tanks or killing squishies. AD for flat damages and bustiness while AP for tank busting with the % health true damage, but cannot have both making the Silver Bolts significantly more balanced.

2% health against 4000 health (super tank) deals 80 bonus true damage, meanwhile you did 1000 - 2500 physical damage [before reduction] to get there. AP you get 25% health per proc in the late game (plus Nashor's Tooth and Rageblade magic damage [phantom hit being active or not affects this value]) for 1000 true damage and 300 physical damage [before reduction].

Dividing up the power makes it a lot easier to balance and more fair to go against as the player now has to choose between more efficient tank busting or faster squishy kills, rather than now which is popping off at a certain point and can melt everyone with no trade-offs or decision making. She will be a lot more fair to go against knowing her strengths and weaknesses a lot more profound based on her build (and a hybrid build is a jack of all trades, master at nothing).

Invis duration down to 0.5 to 1 second. This allows invis to do what you want as a defensive trait, but not make it annoying to go against by halving the invis duration. She will need the invis still, especially now with less attack range, in order to live in the scraps. Again, shorter invis duration will make her a lot less annoying to deal with (it would not persist past the dash).

Final point for counter play is less knock-back range and since the wall is a static 0 or 1000 units spawn locations, there will always be a brief window to flash or get out of the way before the condemn stun, but it is most notable for natural terrain stuns being harder to pull off to not feel cheated that way (players are more forgiving if they got stunned from a well executed combo than being cheated).

The Goodest Boy1 votes

Thanks for clearing up the W mechanics and the other things- The W seems less insane now that I understand.

Just wanted to touch on 2 things: My final comments weren't saying you executed on her Silver Bolts badly, or your R invis mechanics are bad. I was simply mentioning the fact that %max hp true damage, as a mechanic, is nearly impossible to be balanced in any scenario because it lacks counterplay. Normally, you build HP to counter high true dmg and armor to counter high physical. %max hp true damage isn't daunted by either.

I'm not asking you to try and balance it, just mentioning that.

And about the R invis, you're right about it being less insane when 1. the invis is halved and 2. she has to be in her ultimate "zone." I thought she would get it after every Q regardless like her current R, but your version actually doesn't seem that bad.

Cool stuff :)

also, saw the updates! the concept of the wall as another obstacle Vayne's enemies have to endure to finally get to her is neat, glad I helped with some ideas. Removing the R invis was an interesting choice, wondering if her R could use an extra effect now?

Thanks for interacting and shit man

Stacona1 votes

An insane movement speed buff [directional, aggro] and vision is super strong for a marksman so it is pretty strong, especially when combined with everything else.

The benefits to true damage is knowing how much damage something deals, so it is EASIER to balance not harder or impossible since more control is granted. Since the damage is always true, that means it can be lower than a magical/physical counterpart. ~ Plus how I set it up is splitting up the % health and burst flat damage for two different builds, choosing between one or the other, and even going AD silver bolts still feels great for the player (even though it does next to zero damage) since it is a very satisfying effect for the player [hence player satisfaction]. This offers great game design for a PvP game since the player can have fun without sacrificing the fun of others with feel good abilities, without being OP abilities. PvE games can offer satisfaction and overpowered effects because there is no human player that receives a bad time.

Stacona1 votes

UPDATE NOTES (1):

Night Wall: Cooldown increased to 14/13/12/11/10 from 13/12/11/10/9 seconds Duration increased to 4 from 2.5 seconds Movement speed reduced to 125 units per second from 200 units per second Wall is no longer enemy impassable terrain, which means it no longer pushes enemies with it Wall still stops enemies, whether enemy dashes or friendly knock-backs

Wall now disarms, grounds, and slows by 55/60/65/70/75% for 2 seconds, creating a helpless victim for the slaughter (Condemn stun will override these effects)

Condemn: Now notes applies stun and double damage on terrain OR if the target is stopped

(Has an additional benefit of working with other stops like a friendly Veigar's Event Horizon.)

Final Hour: Invisibility on Tumble dash removed (it was 0.5 second here).

(Gave W a disarm, this will be more appreciated by the player and make Vayne less annoying to go against while disarm and invis serving the same purpose against basic attackers [but now exposes her to mages like Annie's Q].)

Alzon1 votes

I believe you can lower the flat on-hit damage scaling CS minions/monsters to 0.25 AP. 0.5 is the same as Lich Bane, which is gated by having a cooldown and always applying to a single target only (see below).

What if the Tumble auto worked like Twitch’s ultimate? Sure last-hitting from long range would suffer, but that’s not what Vayne is meant to do (and how you counterplay her in lane). The next auto after casting Tumble would pierce, dealing half damage to secondary targets as well as being able to crit and apply on-hit effects, but on-attack effects such as Silver Bolts and Sheen only apply to the primary target. This means both AP on-hit and crit Vayne would have some form of waveclear (AoE true damage vs minions/monsters), as well as having situational longer range. In fact, you might even lower her base range further (perhaps 475), with Tumble piercing up to 600 range or so. Tumble would also need a longer cooldown, something like 10/9/8/7/6, refunding half of the cooldown if it hits an enemy champion, structure, or large or epic monster.

Vayne should keep a lower range while being capable of situational AoE. These changes would also make her a viable jungler, mid laner, and top laner as well. 475 or even lower range would be an acceptable tradeoff, with her waveclear keeping her as a bot lane carry.

The new W combined with Condemn gives her loads of safety and might even appear cancerous in top lane... I’d say remove the Disarm, lower the slow at early ranks, and have the slow decay over the duration. The Grounded and dash interruption are already strong enough. Believe me, Disarm feels absolutely terrible to play against, especially on a basic ability. The slow could be something like 40/50/60/70/80%, decaying over 2 seconds (compare to Karthus). The idea is to help Vayne keep people from jumping on her (or away from her, If cast at range), not from doing anything if they succeed. Compare to an Amumu ult, except you get to move slowly. Yeah, a little strong for a mobile marksman, even with a low range and without the invisibility.

Speaking of, I think this should be added back - but only as a reward for killing a marked target. Upon the death of a target marked with Final Hour that Vayne damages within the last 1.5 seconds, for the next 8/10/12 seconds her Tumble grants invisibility and 30/60/90 movement speed toward enemy champions for 1 sec. One of the reasons people play Vayne is for the pentakill potential. As much as I dislike playing against her, I don’t want to see this removed.

Also, I feel the Final Hour movement speed bonus in your post is way too strong... Compare to Predator, except it doesn’t wear off after the first attack. A 25/30/35% bonus would seem much more reasonable, or you could do a flat 90 like the live Night Hunter. Possibly even 90/105/120, but the increases would actually be a good bit less due to the movement speed soft cap.

Stacona1 votes

Minion damage is comparable to what the attack damage build would deal per attack (ignoring crit damage, but it has double damage on silver bolt proc for that). With an added benefit of killing baron minions easily, but the entire purpose of AP build here is for tank busting, which includes tank-minions.

Q is more balanced as a single target shot, it also makes more sense with the dash portion this way, plus having twitch ult up all the time seems busted.

W - if the wall is not strong enough then it holds no threat, plus pretty hard for someone to run into it already without getting knocked into it or stopping a dash with it. The disarm replaces the stealth and makes sense for the 0 range cast as her defensive tool.

R - I want to create a kit that tries to remove toxicity, while granting an ultimate that is notice-able power rather than invisible power and feels better for the user. If Vayne is turned more into a team player rather than solo player, then that should help tone back the toxicity.

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