When the reworks "fail"

LeBalancedChain·Jul 24, 2016·1 votes·428 views

Hi Riot :). I have a question, what do you thinkwhen some rework "fails". I'm not saying a really fail, but transform the champion in a thing that wasn't supposed to be. For example, the Quinn and Graves rework. It's true that they are so good, yeah, but did you want to transform 2 adcarries into 2 fighters?

I'm not saying that your work isnt good, your work is perfect <3 i love your patches, and when i read the patch notes i understand why you buff or nerf some champion.

A good day to you, and keep doing your good work :).

7 Comments

DwarvenGiantJul 24, 20161 votes

I think that Quinn was originally known for her dueling ability rather than her roaming, but they strengthened the latter more with the Update. Graves is actually subclassified as "Marksman/Skirmisher" with the new terms- just relating this to what you said.

I think that both Updates hit the mark for Riot- They wanted to strengthen or build a unique identity for each Marksman or Markswoman, and they did it pretty successfully, IMO, even if it means that, with the new "Marksman with a real Shotgun" fantasy for Graves, he fills a unique role with a unique playstyle within the Marksmen roster but at the same time slightly leaning towards the Fighter/Slayer roles.

Another good example of why such Updates succeeded (at least the idea behind them, but I'm going to argue that the execution did too), is Corki, whose identity of a "Magey" (Artillery) Marksman was pushed even further with his Gameplay Update. So again, while it did push him more towards the Mage role, he now has a niche, something unique that he can bring to the team- A Marksman with a TON of Magic Damage. Slightly pushing the Marksmen towards different subclasses is necessary, in my opinion, in order to create a roster of champions whose core is the very basic Auto Attack mechanic, so things will be shaken up this way and allow for new and unique strategic identities for each,

I'm using your examples as my examples too because I think that the Marksman Roster Update did what I'm trying to explain best- Riot took a very "samey" roster of champions and built upon, pushed and strengthened each of the older Marksmen's niches with the purpose of giving them a unique role within a team, even if sometimes it's at the cost of throwing a bit of what most people would say is those champions' old core identities (Like in Quinn's case and her old dueling capabilities).

######Hopefully this was understandable enough and I also want to clarify that I don't intend to argue with you, DikoManel, because as you obviously said, you liked the Updates, so I'm mostly just giving my two cents on the subject. Hopefully I didn't use the words "unique", "identity", or "strengthen" too much, too. :P

LeBalancedChainJul 24, 20161 votes

Hmmm, ty =) yeah, that makes sense now :P if we see this view we can see this yeah xD now we haven't all the marskmans doing the same build, it wasn't funny :s Again, ty :) you helped me so much ^^

DwarvenGiantJul 24, 20161 votes

No problem, glad to help and discuss. :>

VanjieJul 24, 20161 votes

They understand when a champion rework is bad and know they have to fix him or her. The problem is Riot doesn't fix they and they would rather leave champions in a boring, weak, and pathetic state before they do something. Look at Karma Mordekaiser Shen

DwarvenGiantJul 24, 20161 votes

Those are three that didn't hit the mark with their updates but unfortunately aren't the highest priorities at the moment.

At least Riot (and ChampUP specifically) acknowledge this and don't completely ignore players when context or discussion is asked or something like that.

I mean, Mordekaiser and Skarner needed (and still do need) much bigger work than a small Gameplay Update as part of a Roster Update- They both are on the list for full VGUs, and so far, those kind of updates have been really successful, so we can only hope that this will help them get to a better place, design-wise. These two were also an important lesson for Riot which they applied on to the later Roster Updates (They didn't give Swain much attention with the Immobile Mages Update because he's due for a much bigger Update).

Karma is also one they've been looking to make changes to, and perhaps her time will finally come when they get to do a Roster Update for Enchanters (which probably is not the highest on the list, but still).

Shen is one they (the Balance Team) will probably keep making changes to until he's the closest to what they wanted him to be with the Update.

Anyways, I think that Mordekaiser is in a better spot (and so is Skarner) design-wise, now that they are more balanced (even if they're slightly on the weaker side). I think that, while a bit of the mess at the beginning, Mordekaiser's Update did push him into a better and more interesting direction (and probably a more healthy one, too), as his abilities now are more interactive and he's also not a one-shot machine like he used to be originally (and for a rather short time after the Gameplay Update, which I'm mostly ignoring, though, because it wasn't for this long, despite the impact and strength it did had, his Q, right after the Update, and because it's in a much better state right now).

Forgive me again if this post is a little messy, because I'm typing this after a long day and before going to bed, while I'm pretty damn tired. And again, not attacking anyone of course if, in case it seems like that- Just clarifying things and sharing my personal thoughts on the subject, also based on experience with Morde and Skarner before and after the Update, AND after the balance changes that came after Update. :P

angery poutJul 24, 20161 votes

The main complaint about the Shen update is his whole spirit sword shenanigans. It doesn't fit him thematically at all but it's the replacement for his old vorpal blades. Riot's acknowledged that the spirit sword isn't a thing that should have happened but nothing is going to be reverted. (NOTE: I don't endorse reverting reworks and champion udpates, only mild/moderate balance changes or random changes to a champion including Sona's.)

Riot struggles with finding the balance between releasing updates frequently and releasing good updates. As much as I sympathize with them I really with that there weren't nearly as many champions left in the dust as there are. Evelynn and Mordekaiser are the big two that I think need the most love. I'd include Skarner with "needs love" but he falls into a similar category as Shen tbh. His rework made him stronger, but his thematic as a champion was ruined. The main difference I see is that Shen was stronger pre-update (until meta started favoring him recently) and Skarner was stronger post-update.

VanjieJul 25, 20161 votes

Riot doesn't respond to anything. All Riot ever has are excuses. In regard to Karma specifically, she only needs minor work done to her. The majority of Karma's work needs to be done on a champion and identity level. They removed her fans, didn't give us a polished VU, no proper running animation, unoriginal taunts and incomplete voice interactions, and her lore is bland and unoriginal. It has been three years. Ryze has been reworked 7 times and almost every champion part of the Enchanter class has been reworked the past few patches. What is the excuse for Karma in particlar and the reason why no one from Riot games responds about ideas or what they want to do with Karma? They don't care about the champion and are very lazy. That is the issue. Power and balance wise her kit is not bad, but it just doesn't fit for ber theme and the character. Fix that issue so it does with her lore and visuals. I mean 3 years and 7 Ryze reworks later and Karma cannot get the time of day to adress her core problems. I don't even care if they keep her the way she is, but at least address her problems when you have no problem working on Ryze 7 times and probably 8 times next year.