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Let's figure out what we ACTUALLY don't like about the Boards

Hyrum Graff··78 votes·27,303 views

Let's be honest: If you set the sorting to Recent and use Chronological View, the boards are functionally identical to old GD (albeit with a few areas that need work. *cough* quoting *cough*)

So, what is the actual issue? It's how they look. SO...

#ITT: Leave what you do / don't like about Boards' LOOK AND FEEL.

Let's figure out what needs changing, so we can set the Boards team to work ;)

Yours, Hyrum Graff

edit: 3:19am and I'm too tired to read any more. I promise I will read every one of your comments, and reply to most of them, though!

edit2: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/x7tfNfBU-lets-figure-out-what-we-actually-dont-like-about-the-boards?comment=007e

298 Comments

Pollyanna Wright72 votes

You can upvote/downvote without actually going into the thread.

Zielmann2 votes

This has actually seen a couple iterations in the past where they had that enabled and disabled. I wouldn't be surprised if they're willing to try changing it again if there's enough community push for it.

Tamat10 votes

We heard you on this one. This has been changed.

Edit: Wait. I assumed this was feedback about how GD works. We changed that so that you can upvote the OP. If this was for something else, I misunderstood.

BrainiacOutcast2 votes

I believe the common sentiment about how voting on OPs in GD should work is: You can vote on OP's You can only vote on them from the thread page, not the main forum

I would personally also like to suggest: You can only see the vote total on OP's from the thread page, not the main forum.

Daddy Space Lion2 votes

I believe the common sentiment about how voting on OPs in GD should work is: You can vote on OP's You can only vote on them from the thread page, not the main forum

I would personally also like to suggest: You can only see the vote total on OP's from the thread page, not the main forum.

Then the voting system still cares about how many people clicked a button - it doesn't care about who is voting, why they are voting, it just cares about a single click.

That's counter-intuitive and destruction to innovation.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

How would you feel about having only an upvote button?

GibonGra4 votes

How would you feel about having only an upvote button?

Still not ideal. Votes shouldn't affect a thread's visibility. Period.

The original forums weren't perfect, but they were far closer to perfect than this mess. Which is why we kept using them until we were forced here by people who don't care what we want.

Pendragon22 votes

There are a few situations where someone can consume a post without going into the discussion

  1. The discussion is a link to an outside website
  2. You can read the preview on hover over

It's a very easy change for us to make if it's being abused and we'll monitor it closely.

Daddy Space Lion15 votes

There are a few situations where someone can consume a post without going into the discussion

  1. The discussion is a link to an outside website
  2. You can read the preview on hover over

It's a very easy change for us to make if it's being abused and we'll monitor it closely.

Voting system right now has no deterrence. It can be freely used by idiots and intellects alike. That's a problem, Pen. For the sake of doing something to earn back your people's respect, fix the voting system and do something other social sites haven't done yet after years. The voting system encourages idiots and delinquents, because there's less intellects. Hence every class room has maybe 3 kids out of the rest that grow and aspire to be something; the rest get caught up in drugs, sex and trivial nonsense.

Pendragon24 votes

At the moment there's no evidence that "idiots" are manipulating visibility of content on the front page. Bumping can also just as easily be used by idiots to manipulate the front page on GD.

Generally we want to build the system assuming we can trust the people to be well intentioned and then manage exceptions, instead of building to mistrust by default.

AtheosisX11 votes

Generally we want to build the system assuming we can trust the people to be well intentioned and then manage exceptions, instead of building to mistrust by default.

Are you new to the internet?

Pendragon75 votes

Yah this is my first internet. How do I farm wood

Misdirect4 votes

Mostly like this.

GibonGra6 votes

At the moment there's no evidence that "idiots" are manipulating visibility of content on the front page. Bumping can also just as easily be used by idiots to manipulate the front page on GD.

Generally we want to build the system assuming we can trust the people to be well intentioned and then manage exceptions, instead of building to mistrust by default.

You can never trust anyone on the internet to have good intentions. This is an unbreakable rule and has been ever since the internet became a thing. All you're doing is showing that you have no understanding of how the internet works.

Pendragon58 votes

I will start by not trusting you and thus disregarding your feedback about not trusting others. Full circle

Slaaneshine15 votes

The amount of productivity is astounding.

Rockman4 votes

[deleted]

Pendragon15 votes

One thing we plan on doing is hiding the rating for some initial period of time. Do you feel like that addresses your concern?

Rockman5 votes

[deleted]

Pendragon5 votes

What do you think a fair incubation period is? I was thinking a few hours.

CallMeBlitzkrieg2 votes

I think it would be better do it by a system where # of votes... say 20 or something instead of time, as activity is going to vary depending on time of day and other factors

Pendragon6 votes

My only concern with that is that some boards will be much more popular than others. Would it be OK if sometimes it happened in seconds, and sometimes it didn't happen ever - depending on the board? I could see some sort of blended option that takes both into consideration, but that's more may be more dev work so it's a tough tradeoff.

Jaawn2 votes

Quote from Pendragon:

My only concern with that is that some boards will be much more popular than others. Would it be OK if sometimes it happened in seconds, and sometimes it didn't happen ever - depending on the board? I could see some sort of blended option that takes both into consideration, but that's more may be more dev work so it's a tough tradeoff.

The required coding can be done in a single if statement regardless of if it is a blended option or not.

i.e.: score = (numVotes + numComments > 10 && secondsSinceCreation > 600) ? (upVotes - downVotes) : "??");

That line of code means: If the number of votes + the number of comments is greater than 10 AND it has been at least 10 minutes since the post was created, display the score. If not, display "??".

So, this particular statement imposes a minimum incubation of 10 minutes.

Pendragon6 votes

That can be true with two caveats

  • It should be likely configurable in a live environment and maybe it should be configurable per-board without a deploy
  • Both variables of course have to already be exposed to the front end and available to that system
SummonerMan Matt3 votes

That can be true with two caveats

  • It should be likely configurable in a live environment and maybe it should be configurable per-board without a deploy
  • Both variables of course have to already be exposed to the front end and available to that system

One thing that is killing me on "new GD", is I am having an impossible time knowing who and what you are referencing in your replies.

Old GD you could easily see who said what and what you are replying to. Here I have no idea what your talking about :(

Good to see you back on GD pendragon.

PsylentFox3 votes

Hey, you need a name change Matt, Summoners apparently don't exist anymore. Or the League of Legends for that matter. Riot is pretty much destroying everything they built. I can understand the intentions, making it more character focused to link players with their fave champions, but now we the players are just... people instead of powerful summoners who're controlling these champions based off of close personal/cultural/political relationships.

Hyrum Graff7 votes

I think the incubation period should lean heavily on # views, because a metric based on time isn't consistent, since Boards activity varies.

Jaawn3 votes

Quote from Pendragon:

One thing we plan on doing is hiding the rating for some initial period of time. Do you feel like that addresses your concern?

which concern are you referring to?

Pendragon7 votes

A few early downvotes being difficult/impossible to recover from

5G8Nri0B545 votes

You know, this is a question that's been asked even during the early days of the non-reddit GD that just died.

Why are votes anonymous? Why can we not see who up or downvotes something?

Also, MAKE IT MANDATORY TO REPLY IN ORDER TO VOTE. No more single-post thread with scores of upvotes or scores of downvotes that then proceeds to get cast off with the TC not knowing wtf just happened. Besides, if you're too scared or shy to say something, why should you have a say in whether you agree or disagree with the post with just a single button?

SecretAgentHulk13 votes

"Also, MAKE IT MANDATORY TO REPLY IN ORDER TO VOTE."

I'd rather read a semi-interesting post with 49 upvotes and 2 decent comments than the same one with 49 upvotes, 2 decent comments, and 47 "thass good man"s. My two cents anyway.

GranspearZX8 votes

And this is when threads and discussions devolve into people posting memes and reaction images just because they're forced to reply.

Moreover, WHY do you think you need to know who is downvoting/upvoting you? What constructive information could that possibly give?

"Oh, you downvoted me, but you lost your last three ranked matches. Git gud scrub." So when we talk about the Boards taking a step backward... -whistles-

5G8Nri0B544 votes

@Pendragon, do you remember all those factually correct threads about Diana being OP, where the TC proceeds to list out all the exact reasons why she was OP, and where the patches eventually nerfed those exact things that brought her in line...

...WERE DOWNVOTED TILL THE THREAD WAS CLOSED?!?!

With the old GD, no matter how badly the thread was downvoted by trolls of mains of an OP champion, that thread will still remain relevant as long as someone posted.

With your Reddit style, any, and I mean ANY opinion that isn't majority opinion will never be seen due to this new system

Any thread that is about invisible forgotten champions will go to hell whereas before the TC could just bump once or twice until other like-minded individuals see the thread and get the thread going.

All this new forum will do is replace bumping with endless creation of the same thread.

AbiwonKenabi4 votes

After being on this board for many months and at the start of those months having a similar opinion to you, I can honestly say that I have yet to see any sort of constructive (which is, I think, the better word here, not "factual" since facts only support your opinion, not prove it) posts completely closed straight away. In fact, I see more constructive discussion about UP/OP champions that don't immediately devolve into "NERF PLZ RITO" and the like, which I prefer.

The old forums were ok, I like the chronological style and I occasionally look at the "Recent Threads" tab, but let's be honest: this system is designed to make the more constructive, more discussion-oriented conversations more visible. When that doesn't happen is when people are more interested in complaining loudly than having an actual discussion, so the discussion was probably doomed from the start, no matter what format you use.

Also, one very important thing the old forums didn't have: a report button. See someone spamming the same thread over and over? Report those suckers!

xJLx MCHammer29 votes

Champion concept every 2 min

Dead Depressing Colors suck

AbiwonKenabi3 votes

I don't want to smother champion concept people out there, but it would be nice to be able to have your own personalized front page when you only want to see topics you are interested in. Isn't this how Reddit works?

I was thinking something like a checkbox system, where you go to the side panel where the board topics are listed and check only the ones you want to see at the moment.

I think this is something that's been discussed before, and the nice thing about these boards is that they are more customizable.

That said, I'm still waiting for Rioter icons. IronStylus needs his parrot back :(

Ad Astra per Asp17 votes

Yours, Hyrum Graff

edit: 3:19am and I'm too tired to read any more. I promise I will read every one of your comments, and reply to most of them, though!

Hello Rito staff member, as a web developer of 7+ years who runs my own business I believe I can help you with some free design consulting. So here is my professional as well as personal feedback, I will separate the two:

Professional Feedback:

  1. Your page loads, then each post loads through javascript. This is a very poor design decision for multiple reasons. 1a) It makes caching systems difficult. Instead of being able to cache an entire page, and deal with one request for that page and the images/css/javascript on that page, you have to make caches for every ajax call or simply leave them uncached. 1b) This increases load on the server considerably, making your site scale worse, which for a high traffic site like yours is a bad direction to take. 1c) It confuses the user who loads the page and sees empty comments that suddenly appear.
    1d) It is slow to load the thing people most come to see, the post content itself. It should be reversed, if anything, people want the content not later, but now.

  2. Aesthetically, as some form of art or medal or cool graphic, the boards look freakin sweet! But unfortunately for you, it's not a cool graphic or medal or strictly art, it is a web page and as such usability, readability and most of all functionality take precedence to looking great. Here's where you go wrong on that: 2a) Dark backgrounds with light text are scientifically proven to be worse, your reading rate goes down, your conversion rate in ecommerce goes down, your share rate goes down and thus your overall popularity plummets too. A poll here: http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/08/the-dos-and-donts-of-dark-web-design/ says that 47% say the main cause of concern is readability. And it's true. With all the bad things about dark backgrounds with light text, you'd be best to stay entirely away from it at all. You can have dark elements, dark backgrounds, etc. But where there is text there should be light backgrounds with dark text, and the more they contrast the better. That said if you are entirely set on having a dark background with light text, that article I linked has some good pointers you could follow. For one you could have more whitespace for each character and make the contrast greater between the gold text and dark background. But as a professional if you were my client I'd highly recommend you shelf the current design as an alternative theme for those who enjoy it and rework it so that there is at least where there is text, a light background with dark text. Even if that's the only change you make it'd be well worth it.

Personal Feedback: I don't think I'm alone in saying that the "best" view is not the best at all. I get that as a company riot wants to be able to go through posts and read only what is "best" to save time as you have a lot of busy people. And rather than hiring internal people to read it all and show only the best community responses you'd like that to be determined by the community. But this poses several problems to me as a user and it is significant to me, tho maybe not everyone. I don't like the best view, and even having chronological view... "best" is the default. Meaning only me and a few others will see my post in a long thread and even if it is a good comment/post, it likely will never be upvoted, let alone read at all. Which makes me either have to wait to be one of the first to post in a thread or just be discouraged from posting altogether, which isn't good for riot or me either, to be discouraging posting. Boards should be warm and welcoming and even a bit hectic, not hostile and a competition upon which your every post is judged and sorted by mob rule. Mob rule isn't very effective governing in real world scenarios. And this is much more mob rule than democracy.

ButterlesssToast16 votes

I think replies to comments should automatically collapsed and be more spaced apart so it look less like a wall of text. I really like the way YouTube comments organizes replies. If you want to figure out more about what people think about a comment you can uncollapse it. That way you don't have trouble differentiating what a reply and a actual comment is.

RiotRiot Sweet3 votes

@ButterlessToast

I think replies to comments should automatically collapsed and be more spaced apart so it look less like a wall of text. I really like the way YouTube comments organizes replies. If you want to figure out more about what people think about a comment you can uncollapse it. That way you don't have trouble differentiating what a reply and a actual comment is.

There are a few items here that help offer great context. Automatically collapsed is one option but may not be the best way to go.

My takeaway is that we could do better with: providing clarity and hierarchy within comments, potentially condensing space used and showing a better 'parent/child' relationship. Sound about right?

Jesnir11 votes

Hard to find a previous thread

Wayward Sword9 votes

About a fifth of the available space is wasted on the navigation menu for the Boards. Not the worst thing in the world, but there are better ways to handle it without wasting space in threads. A drop-down menu at the top, a separate page like the old Boards, or even getting rid of it once inside a thread. Other than that, there are options to make it similar to old Boards.

Siachi6 votes

Well having the search function be better and show up in chronological view would be nice.

And I don't think the red tracker displays Riot posts in GD Boards, which seems like an oversight.

Otherwise, I actually don't have too many problems with Boards, at least nothing that I've noticed.

EDIT: Also since old GD closed, having 'General Discussion' under the Boards section at the top of the page redirect to here would be appreciated.

KevinDelMarr6 votes

When can we customize the color scheme of the boards. Dark backgrounds with light letters never suited me.

Jaawn3 votes

I get the low-contrast benefits of the new boards, but I think it goes too far. There needs to be at least a LITTLE bit more contrast between different interface elements to make things easier. My brain has trouble dealing with it and it just makes me want to do something else the entire time lol.

Also, I strongly disagree with the push toward a fully democratic system where popularity wins. Sometimes, popular things are wrong/bad, and unpopular things are right/good. This system seems to only side with popularity, unless I misunderstand it. I think it is unwise to do that, given the history of this community.

Pendragon8 votes

The stuff on the front page when sorting by "hot" is impacted by three things

  • Rating (up/down votes - which are interpreted as "more people or less people should see this"
  • Activity (How much discussion is there)
  • Time (How fresh is the discussion)

In order for the system to be successful I think we have to really heavily develop a strong voting culture where people really understanding the impact of a vote.

Looking at the front page right now - is there stuff there that you think shouldn't be? Or are the topics that you really thought should make it to the front page that didn't?

GibonGra4 votes

The stuff on the front page when sorting by "hot" is impacted by three things

  • Rating (up/down votes - which are interpreted as "more people or less people should see this"
  • Activity (How much discussion is there)
  • Time (How fresh is the discussion)

In order for the system to be successful I think we have to really heavily develop a strong voting culture where people really understanding the impact of a vote.

Looking at the front page right now - is there stuff there that you think shouldn't be? Or are the topics that you really thought should make it to the front page that didn't?

The fact you think that's possible on the internet shows that you don't understand it. Look at reddit, the dumbest stuff gets upvoted because of mob mentality and that's all anyone sees, thereby promoting more idiocy.

Pendragon11 votes

Reddit has a huge amount of cultural variance from sub to sub - there are cases where there is a strong culture of intelligent use and cases where there is a strong culture of nonsense.

http://www.reddit.com/r/adviceanimals Is exactly what you're complaining about http://www.reddit.com/r/askhistorians Is well moderated and full of thoughtful and articulate questions and answers

Hyrum Graff4 votes

I used to hate the color scheme, too, but after a couple weeks I started to like it much more. Give it a chance! Or don't, and you won't have to wait very long for a new color scheme.

While it may seem at first that "Hot" is purely democratic, it's actually possible to get a lot of visibility for your post, if you're willing to do a little work. By responding (with content) to every single comment thread, I was able to keep this post on the front page for about 15 hours yesterday/today. Granted, with way more people posting now that old GD is gone, you won't be able to keep it there for as long, but there's also more people to see your post, so I think it should even out.

Ratastok2 votes

[deleted]

Hyrum Graff15 votes

They are fucking reddit

I hope they're using protection!

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