What goes too far in terms of "pervy content"?

darkdill·Aug 5, 2014·3 votes·3,545 views

If a picture doesn't show actual nudity or sexual content, but shows something that could be considered perverted (or ecchi), how is it judged?

For instance, I know of a 4-koma comic where several of the League women are at a hot tub, and Lux is envious of the breast sizes of the others (whereas she is flat). While the women are clearly unclothed, nothing explicit is shown. Does this cross a line?

Just trying to get some clearer outlines for this rule.

30 Comments

PendragonAug 5, 201412 votes

If you try to post content as that comes as close as possible to breaking the rule just barely on the "OK" side of violating it, you're going to have a bad time.

darkdillAug 5, 20141 votes

Point taken.

BrydaroAug 5, 20145 votes

Like this? ( . ) ( . )

Wait, actual points, if it's barely on the "ok side" of violation and it gets taken down isn't it totally on the "not ok" side of violation (meaning that it violated)? I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't seem that you're saying it very well.

Moreover, just looking at what you said, if I've posted something "just barely on the ok side of violating" then I hasn't violated. What consequences could you justifiably implement if no violation has been committed?

The TaC Notice is formatted like a contract. You can't just arbitrarily decide whether or not something violates them if it doesn't clearly meet the conditions for violation. If the conditions for violation are unclear (the point of this post that you seemingly failed to address) then this is an issue with the TaC Standards and not the poster.

PendragonAug 5, 20146 votes

If you're not quite sure, then just don't post it.

As much as we'd like to be as specific as possible, some things are going to require some level of discretion on the part of moderators and administrators.

We will certainly be specific wherever possible. Right now we say no pornography and no mature content. We're not going to get into a debate about how many nipples need to appear in an image for it to be considered pornographic or mature.

BrydaroAug 5, 20142 votes

That makes sense. On a lighter topic, does the image described violate? In a movie it'd be PG13, so where does it fall on the forums? I'm asking for an informal opinion. Feel free not to answer. I have no intention of following up.

PendragonAug 5, 20142 votes

I haven't seen it, but I'd say probably does violate. Haven't really stress-tested this perspective, but I'd ask if the image had any non-sexual merit to it.

BrydaroAug 5, 20142 votes

Well feelings of body envy are a very human thing. We all compare ourselves to others morally, bodily, and mentally to maintian some kind of compass as to where we are as people. You could argue that feelings of body envy and a wish for sexual endowment are highly sexual and therefore wouldn't really meet your criteria of non-sexual merit, but it is something to consider. We've all felt it, we've all been in Fan-Lux's situation and all of us will connect with it somehow. It seems like purely sexual fan-art but not from the perspective of pornography. It's a "ain't that the worst" piece of work through which the artist can connect with the audience. It also serves the purpose of connecting with the audience through an understanding of the content and characters portrayed (they're league characters. People to play league wouldn't recognize them. It's kinda like an inside joke).

I've seen a similar image (more tastefully drawn) wherein two women pass each other on the street. One with large breasts and one with smaller breasts. In a thought bubble above the large breasted woman's head she envies the greater availability of small bra sizes, how much longer those bras last and the ease of movement that big breasts hamper. In a thought bubble above the smaller breasted woman is the expected envy for attention, confidence, and a more realized figure.

It's all very organic, real and empathetic.

darkdillAug 5, 20141 votes

Pretty much, though in the example I'm thinking of, it's more comical. It's along the lines of Lux thinking "All the others have such great bodies, but I'm so flat..."

Should I link the example?

BrydaroAug 5, 20141 votes

It's not a safe thing to post.

Hyrum GraffAug 5, 20141 votes

Link it in the (old) thread I posted. Make sure it's in response to one of Tamat's replies. He'll get a notification, and might respond.

OrisiAug 5, 20145 votes

While I understand the point being made with regards to the distinct grey-area of outlining what does and doesn't fall under adult or pornographic content, I do think it's a bit... immoral, I guess? at least hypocritical, to attempt to pass judgement on an image with the question 'does the image have any non-sexual merit to it' given the relative sexualisation of many female characters in League.

The question can be asked about many female characters and their skins/splash arts as to whether there's any non-sexual merit to the design of them. The recent debacle over Headhunter Caitlyn immediately springs to mind here, although I think the words "French Maid Nidalee" spring to mind most readily.

I for one support the idea of keeping the forums relatively clean (although I'm more in favour of 'mature content' markers and censors to prevent it being seen by those who do not wish to or are too young to, than purely outright censorship), I'm just saying I think there are better criteria for determining the inherent merit of a post in relation to the amount of skin on display than trying to debate the existence of extra-sexual merit, a somewhat subjective subject.

I mean, do we really want Sexy Sexy Taric banned from the forums?

BrydaroAug 5, 20141 votes

Really good points. I considered this path of argument, but I had higher priority goals. Something I only just realized is that we're talking to someone who lucked out having to argue with people (namely me) over what should have just been a cursory comment. While (s)he does represent Riot, (s)he doesn't have the authority to accommodate any points we may bring up. (S)he also represents Riot, so any "personal opinions" given will be heavily scrutinized while (s)he uses that Riot-marked name. (S)he can't really say anything other than "It's not a safe thing to post" without some sort of consequence that maybe cost this person their job or privileged.

OrisiAug 5, 20142 votes

I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on this, there is an issue with regards to company line vs personal inclination, but that's important to have here, because it's the exact problem that exists between content and moderators; each moderator is applying their own interpretation of a somewhat subjective rule to how they monitor content.

I'm not saying they're all totally biased and subjective, of course, simply that the grey line exists explicitly because of that personal bias; it can't be removed, but I think that it should be managed as well as it can. It's one of the reasons I consider an explicit content alert to be a great part of a forum community, even if you do want to put hard rules against graphic nudity or sex scenes in place, having an explicit content system is a great way of managing personal bias; do you think it's a possible rule-breaker, but can see why it may be acceptable to others? mark it as explicit content and move on. Is someone doing it a lot? ask them to re-read the T+Cs and advise them to take more care to use those content markers in future on their posts. If necessary, escalate and treat as any other ASB online

Riot are in a difficult position in appealing to the mass gaming market, both also being considered a relatively family-friendly game. I'm not saying 4 year olds should be playing hardcore plat 1, but that parents want to know their teenagers or pre-teens can play without it being too explicit, and that's a good thing for the game. But balancing that with their adult clientele makes it a challenge, and I think having a black-and-white system (shown or removed) for grey area content can sometimes cause more harm than good.

BrydaroAug 5, 20141 votes

I understand your position. Having thought about it your proposed system seems like the best way to go about resolving the issue. Why not make a post in Board Feedback? I'll up-vote it and comment and maybe it'll get enough attention to be implemented.

OblongOtterAug 5, 20142 votes

ahemArcade MFahem

Honestly I feel like the arcade mf skin should be the boundary. If it's worse than that then no go, otherwise it's totally good.

NA DarklarikAug 5, 20141 votes

I haven't seen it, but I'd say probably does violate. Haven't really stress-tested this perspective, but I'd ask if the image had any non-sexual merit to it.

Im actually interested, is an image like this: (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Caitlyn-364298118) Cosidered "mature"?

Angry MonsterAug 6, 20141 votes

I would rate this picture as PG. though i am not riot.

Angry MonsterAug 5, 20141 votes

I am sry but this has to be the weirdest standard for art i have ever seen. Merit for art? Really? Art has no inherent merit or meaning that is why it is art.

What is the merit of a Caitlin fan made picture? Is their merit cause it took effort? Cause it shows a side of the character unseen from the POV of the artist? What does this merit standard mean? Almost any art can claim to have these types of merit.

Art usually is all about being risque. People use are to push the limits of society all the time. Sure there has to be some limits but riot really need to nail those down. This merit thing is the stupidest thing ever.

DaenAug 6, 20141 votes

This merit thing is the stupidest thing ever.

I think all Pendragon is saying is "think before you post". As long as things stay within Board rules and aren't blatant pornography or whatever, there shouldn't be any issues.

Angry MonsterAug 6, 20141 votes

I get the think before you post. But he is going about this the wrong way.

Saying merit just makes the issue worse than better. Instead of being clear he is adding to possible confusion.

The players of league are not like mind people that Pendragon has hired or people that were hired by the people he trusts. No this is a wild west of conflicting view points and goals.

Saying something at Riot Headquarters where their is a culture in place and certain standards, will be taken in a certain way. That is why they are so picky about their hiring.

These abstract statements will not work in a open environment. Rules work best when clearly defined. Saying merit for a rule does not work. What has merit to one may not have merit to another. Its a subjective rule, the worse kind of rule.

DaenAug 6, 20141 votes

It's a common sense rule. If it's content that is clearly inappropriate, spam, pornography, whatever, it will be deleted. If it could potentially have discussion value or whatnot, it will not.

This is becoming a really pedantic argument.

Angry MonsterAug 6, 20141 votes

See you are using terms that in LAW are absolutely avoided. Common sense? It does not exist. These are going to be international boards. In Germany they can not even show blood in games with out a 18+ rating. But they are more ok with sexuality. How is their common sense supposed to apply to Americans? Talk about confusing we see blood in some PG movies (not over the top gore) that is kind of thing is hard to make common sense standards on.

Look i get it no sexual organs, no female nipples(though that is sexist)and no sex. Those are clear cut and dry. I just want clear guidelines and I think that is fair. If they said "PG-13" or lower we all get it. If they said "R" we also understand that. Its a term that is understand able and has rules for it.

Just saying use reason tends to get people in arms over things later on. Their reason will not be the same as Riots and people can not be expected to mind read what is always ok. This will be brought up again and again as people have post deleted and their was no clear definitive rule.

MajorPain9Aug 6, 20141 votes

"Three tits?....Nice"

Sir ArmaMalumAug 5, 20143 votes

The way I see it if you have to ask it's probably not a good idea.

Linna ExcelAug 5, 20141 votes

Sometimes it's good to ask just because you want to be safe or need clarification.

And some people consider Ahri's concept to be pretty perverted. But I like her. The vore fantasy that is elise I find to be more troubling/disturbing but riot seems to have no trouble with that kind of thing.

Micavity CatAug 5, 20142 votes

i came to lol and stayed for Brydaro. good points and arguments there man. i giggled at it like a little school girl, but you make very fair points. To touch down on what he was saying, i am in fully agree that it would be hard and immoral to judge what is appropriate or not, considering almost all of the ladies of the league are designed in a very... attention grabbing way. i dont see the difference between a comic someone drew showing the ladies of the league, but not fully exposed, and the splash art of Kat. The ladies are not fully exposed in the splash either but they have some interesting curves in some interesting places. food for though.

DevastraAug 5, 20141 votes

A good way to look at it in my opinion would be to see how far Riot has taken it in the past. 'Convenient censoring' has been used by Riot in the past going by most artistic standards (See the Zyra teaser).

Safe content usually will use some form of convenient censoring such as image angle or having hair (or leaves and shadows in the case of Zyra's teaser) covering more erotic parts. Questionable content usually shows nipples and/or butts, explicit content shows genitals/anuses. Riot hasn't specified, and as such I'd say it's safe to assume those would be the guidelines here as well.

Hyrum GraffAug 5, 20141 votes

This may help.