[Serious] The case against downvotes

mi ramfan·Jul 16, 2014·18 votes·1,116 views

I know a lot of people are going to come in and smack this idea down right away, but after some thought I don't think downvotes are productive or necessary to run a community like this one.

The idea behind downvotes on General Discussion (which lacks a report button) is to allow the Community to filter out and remove content that they find offensive. Unfortunately, this tool has been abused for a long time on GD to silence opinions that players don't agree with, even though nothing in the post breaks the forum rules. This usage of the downvote causes even more problems here on CB/Boards, because it actually makes it harder to find posts that may be of high quality but took a few downvotes for addressing a controversial topic, requesting an anime homage skin (people in GD are crazy about that), etc.

This is besides the point that downvotes don't really accomplish anything. If a post is getting upvoted by everyone, downvoting it won't change that. If a post is hotly debated and getting a mix of votes (in other words, EXACTLY the kind of content we want to see on any forum), then the downvote function can only serve to reduce the visibility of the post. If a post is being downvoted for being porn or low quality, then the "report" button or just not responding works fine.

Stuff like upvotes actually does help in making the best posts visible (and is necessary to make a Reddit-style forum work). But really, downvotes are never used for the purpose they were intended for, and simply not upvoting and posting your disagreement in the thread is a much healthier way of accomplishing the downvote's most common use.

23 Comments

SunfieldJul 16, 20143 votes

Thats an interesting statement. But I havent really seen a single post on Boards that was productive, but got downvoted.

The post you've been speaking about might have been in a wrong forum. If its not the cause, post a link to this post so I and other forum users can see it for ourselves and maybe even upvote to even the downvotes out if its a quality post.

Angry MonsterJul 17, 20141 votes

i have been down voted for saying temmo in a thread. It was in a post of the day thread. Later my post got like 4 up votes. I typed temmo and had context and everything(not spamming the damn icon).

my post moved around lot in that thread cause some people hunted for it and up voted it. Op has a legit point( one that i have made in a few threads). People are down voting just cause they disagree with what is being said. Not cause they fidn it offensive. Downvoting legit opinions should not be allowed.

Down voting threads like "OMG GAREN OP HE JUST WENT 900/0/3" is legit. thisis just a bitch look at me thread.

Hyrum GraffJul 17, 20144 votes

On the other hand, the community here right now... how to put it lightly... has a different atmosphere than GD.

mi ramfanJul 17, 20143 votes

Yeah, eventually more and more GDers will start floating over here, bringing their downvotes with them. When they do, they'll expose the biggest problem with the reddit style system: how incredibly easy it is to use it to silence dissenters.

SunfieldJul 17, 20141 votes

I dont know , maybe it would be worth to disable downvotes for some time and see what happens

AnonTwoJul 17, 20141 votes

To be fair, i think that's one of the reasons why most of GD Doesn't come here.

They actually don't like how abusable the community beta site can be.

That said, i don't think removing downvotes altogether would do anything other than make some look down on these boards even more. I mean...to some it could be seen as a way to prevent them from adding a note that they just don't like the thread. Some people like to have a sign that shows "i don't agree with this", even if they don't want to make a long winded explanation, or they feel the only explanation they could give is "i disagree" to do so.

I guess you could say an argument against these forums for many GDers would be that this style discourages...disagreeing with an opinion. Especially when you have things like the most voted list where disagreeing with an opinion just gets you negative response from people.

It's hard to really word this well, but i think it's just people want to be able to show a bit of negativity in ways other than just a post itself, and sometimes it can be justified to do so.

And yeah, downvotes does cause more issues with these boards due to the way they organize threads, but again: That's why most GDer's don't like these boards

BòüńDJul 17, 20141 votes

It's not about what has happened, it's about what can happen. Give people the power to abuse the system and they will, all there is to it.

VumsyJul 17, 20142 votes

You not seeing the threads are kinda the point. I made a thread earlier today that got -1 and I have to sort through 15-20 threads in recently posted threads to find it. Trying through the default "hot" filter option I have to go years back to find it. I wasn't being offensive and my post wasn't poorly written. My fault must've been not including WALL OF TEXT in the title.

Kinda strange how -1 sets you behind posts created mid 2013.

DriftingSmokeJul 21, 20141 votes

Thats an interesting statement. But I havent really seen a single post on Boards that was productive, but got downvoted.

The post you've been speaking about might have been in a wrong forum. If its not the cause, post a link to this post so I and other forum users can see it for ourselves and maybe even upvote to even the downvotes out if its a quality post.

It's more common to see productive, upvoted threads shut by Rioters because they don't want the discussion to continue. The thread where Rioters spent a month explaining why they liked seeing 10/10 players use flash every game is a great example, Morello at his finest.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 16, 20143 votes

Downvotes are a problem on both this forum and GD. I'd say they're about equal in how bad they are. While mass downvotes prevents something from being seen, mass downvotes on GD can lead to a thread outright closing even if the content isn't that bad.

Someone once suggested to me to simply remove downvotes and I'd be good with that as long as the report button functions well. As it is, downvotes are a heavily abused tool on both forums, regardless of what people on GD say about it being worse here.

Earl EulrichJul 17, 20142 votes

downvoted

...just kidding

I completely agree, downvoting doesn´t accomplish anything in a discussion-forum - it just shuts down unpopular voices, but also controversial discussions along the line...which in the end might be the most productive sort of discussion. Mods should be sufficient to handle anything that is unappropriate...just make sure the report button works well enough.

LastProtagonistJul 17, 20141 votes

I think you make a fair point that's worthy of more discussion, sir.

CampheneJul 17, 20141 votes

Reddit's easy to game if you have more than 10 accounts. Even /r/leagueoflegends with more than half a million subscribers sees the same posts all day.

Matthias9119Jul 17, 20141 votes

Stuff like upvotes actually does help in making the best posts visible (and is necessary to make a Reddit-style forum work). But really, downvotes are never used for the purpose they were intended for, and simply not upvoting and posting your disagreement in the thread is a much healthier way of accomplishing the downvote's most common use.

For super-high-traffic forums like GD, maybe. In somewhat calmer areas like Player Behavior or the New Player Forum the ability to close down non-useful threads with downvotes is actually good. If Riot provides much quicker/better moderation it would be less necessary. I don't know if they want to get into constantly having to close down threads where it's just devolved into pointless arguing because someone is unhappy about getting a ban.

BòüńDJul 17, 20141 votes

Definitely agree with this statement. Google made this change on YouTube a long time ago when they removed the five star feature. People don't rate things based on the quality of it, they do so because of their biased nature. Biases are a large problem especially in regards to controversial topics. Controversial topics are something I want to see, not hidden behind popular opinion.

VumsyJul 17, 20141 votes

Yeah, I posted a thread earlier today regarding the current state of Quinn, it's a wall of text, but considering I've written alot of articles before as a hobby it should be a good read for the ones who bother.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/RooykNZf-for-riot-and-everyone-who-cares-the-state-of-quinn

Long story short, a thread I made several months ago and has completely lost it's relevance is easier to find than the thread I made today. :/

Lenox007Jul 17, 20141 votes

If being repeatedly downvoted would result in some kind of punishment for that poster, that would be better.

AnonTwoJul 17, 20141 votes

But what if the downvotes aren't being used for trolls, but for disagreeing viewpoints?

Lenox007Jul 17, 20141 votes

If someone gets 200 downvotes across 10 posts in the course of let's say...a month, I'd bet they're toxic and not that they just happen to have 10 disagreeable viewpoints.

AnonTwoJul 17, 20141 votes

I honestly don't think that's a risk worth taking.

I mean, for example...what if a group of people who play together strategically downvoted?

Due to the easy ability to smurf, you can even just own multiple accounts and downvote someone right away.

be kind all chatJul 17, 20141 votes

Down (oops, I mean up) voted. Kappa Seriously though, "Agreed!" ~Ezreal.

Austin CovelloJul 19, 20141 votes

If you've ever been on the NA Player Behavior forum, you know that gang-downvoting to silence dissent is a thing. In fact, one of the genetic defectives over there tried to claim that I was abusing the system for not going along with it. Yes, get rid of downvoting, and that might help improve the discourse within the League community. We might even get some original thoughts that, while flawed, could be refined to work out the imperfections and overcome the objections to them.