Share a discussion that you voted on - and why you voted that way

Pendragon·9/5/2014, 8:54:32 PM·19 votes·7,575 views

Hey all - I think a useful exercise to go through as we calibrate our voting culture is to openly talk not just about what we think votes mean - but to also actually do some voting and share our reasoning because I think having real context helps us frame our decisions.

Format:

**Upvote: **http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/uWBeenvH-how-to-provide-feedback I think this discussion is great because it's going to generally help improve subsequent criticism, and it's framed in a way that's positive/not inflammatory and actionable. I also think the subsequent comments on it make some valid criticisms of the OP, and the Hyrum Graff does a good job of staying active in the discussion and addressing points that people make

**Downvote: ** http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/r4Fml17x-please-add-an-item-discussion-board Not enough meat here to really start a discussion - would love to hear the types of things he would like to be able to post about that he doesn't think fit in Gameplay & Balance

Any reply directly to the OP must follow the above format including both an upvote and a downvote plus the rationale. Replies to those don't need to though

41 Comments

Zhugan9/5/2014, 9:01:42 PM17 votes

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/6TxWksvF-dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

Because watching the lore get retcon'ed disgusts me when there are ways to remove the constraints of the IoW and Summoners without deleting them from ever having existed in the world.

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/fancreations/E4gN9puK-we-just-cant-find-a-way-to-tell-stories-with-this-whole-league-thing-in-the-way-well-we-did

I upvoted this because it showed all the problems with the thing I downvoted in dramatic fashion. Especially since those limits can be removed by stories within the lore.

Daen9/5/2014, 9:05:51 PM5 votes

Upvote - I upvoted this thread

I upvoted this discussion because it's a concept Arma and I have discussed quite a bit, albeit in a different way. The points he brings up are great for fostering discussion, and it's a topic that I myself am very passionate about.

Downvote - I downvoted this thread.

A lot of points in the OP were relatively flawed, and the fact it was coming from the perspective of someone that has been permanently banned from League of Legends on five separate accounts made the points he made seem significantly more biased towards his own opinion of banning.

I generally only downvote posts if they are in the wrong place, blatant trolling, or are incredibly misguided/don't offer valid discussion material.

I vote on comments significantly more frequently than I do posts. Generally speaking, however, I am somewhat hesitant to vote because of how powerful my vote feels. My sole opinion can completely change the order of comments within a thread if I decide to vote on everything in a specific way, which means that I pretty much don't vote unless I heavily disagree or feel something needs more visibility.

I will occasionally vote on things to balance them out, for example if two comments say the same thing but are voted upon differently. It's not ideal, obviously, but 'tis the truth.

It's also rather tempting to vote (or neglect to vote) on things in such a way to bring your own opinion as high as possible. I don't do this, but the temptation is definitely there.

ChickenWrap9/6/2014, 6:24:07 AM5 votes

I upvoted This thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/aE2d7x74-i-am-a-crappy-player-that-knows-almost-everything-about-league-ama

because I had to. Why are we able to upvote our own content, and why do we start with it already upvoted? And why can we DOWNVOTE it as well? What's the logic behind this decision?

Earl Eulrich9/6/2014, 12:28:00 PM4 votes

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/g0E15AYy-a-case-for-the-league-of-legends, http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/ZBJVFxJl-the-institute-of-war-is-actually-a-great-plot-device, http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/fancreations/E4gN9puK-we-just-cant-find-a-way-to-tell-stories-with-this-whole-league-thing-in-the-way-well-we-did, http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/p2lldLav-the-problem-with-separating-gameplay-from-story, http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/R79fMvFy-communication-according-to-the-riot-lore-team

All this posts offer proper feedback and alternatives to just outright murdering the current lore and the connection between gameplay&lore, beeing mostly very constructive despite all the emotiones invested on this topic.

**Didn´t Vote: **http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/JieU8HH9-a-completely-serious-totally-legit-question-for-riot

It´s a nice topic, sure made me smile when i red it - but it just doesn´t offer anything controvercial/of value to talk about. It´s a nice and fun thread, but i feel it shouldn´t get as much visibility than the actual discussions that take place.

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/6TxWksvF-dev-blog-exploring-runeterra

This Blog just screws over every connection between lore and gameplay without offering anything in respect of the players. Years of silence about the lore just to announce that you won´t do anything short then slaughtering all that had been without giving it some good thinking (there are soo many ideas in the community how to tell stories in the current cannon with only slight adjustements)...just showing that noone in Riot actually cares about the playerbase the slightest if it´s not a horde of lee-sin-"mains". You just cannot to sth. like this and state it as a "take it or leave it"-fact. It´s incredible disrespectfull not only towards your players, but to your own work so far aswell.

Linna Excel9/5/2014, 9:23:29 PM4 votes

Crap. Had something and lost it. This would be easier if I could sort via the things I upvoted or not. I don't upvote or downvote too many threads. And the boards are being a PITA because the show more isn't working on all of them.

didn't vote http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/uWBeenvH-how-to-provide-feedback Normally I'd upvote something like this. However right now I'm pretty cynical, don't care about getting downvoted, and I'm not certain if constructive criticism will help. Normally I'd be for it, but it hasn't done anything for me lately. While the methods trump the results, when the methods continually fail, you need to examine them. Being constructive has failed me, so I have to ask if there's any point to it right now.

So I didn't upvote it because I'm not sure if it's worth it anymore.

upvoted http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NpXmL0VV-was-there-any-rework-that-champion-mains-did-not-absolutely-hate-at-first-sight It shares a sentiment I'm feeling right now of you guys not caring about the people who main champs you are reworking.

upvoted http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xIrkEAV9-cassiopeia-visual-update Because I agree there are some issues with the upgrade. I had a thread running down my thoughts, but the boards ate it. Stupid bloody boards.

Sir ArmaMalum9/5/2014, 9:38:11 PM4 votes

Good exercise!

I upvote all of the entries in the Champion Concept Contest I am organizing, to get them a little boost for visibility for feedback and also be a bit more forgiving towards anyone who's new to concepting (and will probably get downvoted). Naturally I don't advertise this, but I do it.

The latest thread I've upvoted is this. I found it very interesting and it's a great idea. :P

Seriously though, I upvote if I feel a post needs more visibility, even if I don't agree with it. I've upvoted several gameplay critiques, fan-made reworks, and general creations that I felt were well explained and had a good amount of effort put into them.

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/civlRK3z-boards-moderation-a-timeline

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/MUE8HEps-can-you-help-me-1272-ranked-games-627-wins-645-losses-playing-a-little-over-a-year

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rl7OTjgG-why-the-jungle-should-be-more-like-season-2-and-how-to-get-there

I rarely downvote, but when I do it's because I cannot think of a single productive reason to have anyone else read said post/comment. I've passed by some really salty and rage-filled posts and let them lie because they brought up a good point or two, albeit in a bad way, but good points. If you got a downvote from me you must have really tried, lol.

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/mfBup6AY-i-just-got-demoted-to-5-d-how-come-your-servers-arent-being-run-by-hamster-wheels-now

Cuix9/6/2014, 12:04:07 AM3 votes

DOWNVOTES: I downvoted this comment and this comment because they are entirely couched in a "secrecy is better" mentality, which I firmly believe is toxic and without merit. Arguments about how Riot has been "bitten in the past" have been consistently, repeatedly, and strongly countered. It is deplorable to continue advocating silence and to mitigate transparency.

I downvoted this thread because it provides no context, uses complicated formulae without examples or clarification, and is overall simply lacking in actual information or usability. It's non-helpful clutter. Similarly, I downvoted this thread because it is useless self-indulgence pretending to be a valid suggestion. Riot has gone on and on about the decision making process regarding skins, and their (baffling, counterproductive, unintuitive) complete silence about upcoming unfinished skins is extremely well-known by now. It's fine to like a champion, but I have no interest in seeing that sort of spam outside of "Memes" and "Misc".

UPVOTES: I upvoted this comment and this comment because Opeli is providing us with clarity and information, which we absolutely need. It's a shame that many people are simply downvoting her out of rage, but that problem will always exist in a popularity-driven upvote/downvote system.

I upvoted this thread for facilitating good discussion and attempting to remain reasonable, usable, and non-hostile. I upvoted this thread for providing a perspective off of which dialogue could occur, and which did not already have an active thread.

Starlighte9/5/2014, 9:13:19 PM3 votes

Upvote: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4839951 Upvoted because I agree with the the topic, I believe the tone is acceptable, and I feel the visibility of the topic is important. If they post had a harsher tone I still probably would have still upvoted, but if i disagreed with the topic or felt it didn't deserve visibility ontop of having a harsh tone, I would have not voted/downvoted it.

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/uMfc44u4-heres-something-riot-doesnt-seem-to-understand Though I may agree with some points the OP makes, generally the tone is too harsh, and offers little actionable feedback beyond purely emotional responses. On a side note, this is a thread that a Rioter could still hop in to, and the thread could still potentially provide conversation that is not purely toxic or hateful.

The only issue I see here, and seems to be the point of asking players to not only vote, but to also comment on why they voted the way they did, is because everyone has a different philosophy for what a vote means.

Group 1 says a vote is agree/disagree. (downvote) Group 2 says a vote is this content is well thought-out/this content has low effort (downvote) Group 3 says a vote is this thread deserves more visibility/deserves less visibility (downvote) Group 4 says a vote is I don't care (upvote or no vote at all)/troll thread (downvote)

And a vast number of variation or derivatives of these (and other) rationale for voting. Part of the problem could be answered by having a Riot defined explanation of what a vote means. Another part of the problem could be answered by having different voting options.

Upvote/Downvote are an incredibly vague medium for parsing content's value. If it were up to me, threads would have a drop down menu with multiple options that could be quickly ticked off describing the thread. Then, those options would be taken into an algorithm that decides if the thread's visibility should increase decrease or lock.

But hey, that is just my 2 cents.

Upvoted for visibility. (I voted purely on visibility for this thread, sometimes i vote on agreement/not, and often my downvotes mean disagreement or troll thread.)

CupcakeTrap9/5/2014, 9:44:19 PM3 votes

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/ZBJVFxJl-the-institute-of-war-is-actually-a-great-plot-device Almost entirely on the thread title, which I happen to agree with.

I don't downvote very often, so I had to actively hunt for a thread to downvote. I went with this one:

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/FZBE6Uw2-youre-living-on-reputation-alone-at-this-point-riot It's just needlessly antagonistic, IMO. There's no real content or basis for discussion. It's just angry ranting at Riot.

MrBuffington9/5/2014, 10:16:25 PM3 votes

Upvoted: This thread, because it was posted by Pendragon.

In all seriousness though, these ~~two four~~ five are on a similar topic, so maybe more insight? I can't say how consistent I am with voting, but:

Upvoted: This thread. Seems to offer a lot of constructive feedback, in a civil and well organized format (and OP managed this on their phone! Much points)

Downvoted: This thread. Wow. Much QQ. I honestly can't tell if there's meaningful feedback here since I'm so distracted by all the flame and toxicity.

EDIT: I'll add a few more on the same topic, more data:

Upvoted: This one, same reasons as above, very well formatted and argued.

Downvoted: This one, again, same as before, much QQ.

Basically, if there's something that seems blatantly inflammatory or just poorly structured, etc. I'll probably downvote it. If it's something that's decently structured and I disagree with or am unsure about, I'll probably leave it alone. If it's something I find very well structured, even if I disagree with parts of it, I'll probably upvote it. If it's a cool thing someone made or something that makes me laugh, I'll upvote it. If it's a well presented opinion that I agree with/was about to express, I'll upvote it. A lot of times too, if there's some contrast in a common topic, that'll influence my voting, like with the threads above; I'll be more likely to upvote the well structured posts and downvote the poorly structured posts instead of staying neutral. I think that's relatively exhaustive on my voting habits.

EDIT2: One more for the road; same topic

Downvoted: This one was really hard to make a decision on. When a lot of threads on the same topic come up, I'm more likely to upvote the ones I think are healthy discussions and downvote the ones I think are non-productive. I was mixed on this one for a while; I think Factions is a really great idea, and done some really great work that I have supported on previous threads. There are some points in this post, though, that really come off as too confrontational (like the last part of the title). Under normal circumstances I probably wouldn't vote on this thread, but in light of the previous threads on this topic that I upvoted (which show the range of how a discussion can be held), I think there was a better way OP could have made this post, and that the threads I upvoted would provide/are more deserving of good discussion, so I ended up downvoting.

EDIT3: One other thing; if a post or comment has been downvoted to 0, and I don't think it deserved it, I will upvote it back to 1, even if I wouldn't have upvoted it normally.

EDIT4: Okay I swear this is (probably) the last one: I also vote in relation to my other votes: I might upvote a post/comment to say, +3 since I think it's a good post/comment that deserves more attention, but maybe won't upvote a post at +2 to +3, even though I like the comment, because I think the first post deserves more visibility, and the way the posts/comments are, the difference between +2 and +3 in terms of visibility seems pretty significant. I do this more often for comments than for threads.

EDIT5: I lied. I take into account how many upvotes something has before downvoting it; if it's a new thread with 1 upvote, I might not downvote it unless it really deserves to never see the light of day. I ran out of spa

Firefox7119/5/2014, 11:24:26 PM3 votes

This is a pretty cool excersie, thanks for doing this. =)

Quick context about me before I share my 3 examples: I mostly spend my time browsing through the Gameplay & Balance catagory since I feel that this one of the best places to have discussion, and my rational for voting probably differs depending if the title of the thread is asked as a question or a statement (demand?).

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6ETW1P9E-is-diana-any-good So, any thread that opens up with a question I'm more likely to look at it and upvote it because it's more about everyone sharing their thoughts, discussion those thoughts, or maybe even coming to a consensus. Although, the thread isn't amazing in trying to start a heavy discussion or out to provide constructive criticism to fix a problem, at least it's not an empty question such as: "Should I buy Diana, pls help". There's a bit more room to talk about Diana as a champion, how well does she fit into the current meta, and if she really does need some buffs, etc. Simply because the thread is set up in question form. And the comments in that thread were genuine in trying to answer OP's question and overall was a positive construct thread as pointed out by the Beowitz. So, I say this is pretty decent as far as discussion value goes.

**Upvote:**http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/TAKi0EwB-favorite-support-champ This thread is even lighter than the first one in term of discussion value, but given that it's posted under Micellaneous it serves its purpose to just get the community sharing and talking. So, anything that is positive or just getting the community to share warrants an upvote in my mind. I would agree though that the post would have been much more interesting if people explained "why" those champs were their favorites. Even I didn't explain why since the OP's post was light to begin with, but just having some light topics/threads ain't so bad to deserve a downvote simply because they don't require heavy discussion. If this thread were posted under Gameplay and Balance I would just ignore it and not vote.

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0l2Rl1AA-please-change-ranked-league-promotion-method
So, unlike the other two threads this one is making a statement about what needs to be done. Which is perfectly fine if the OP brings up valid points, and offers room for discussion. However, half of the OP's post is him ranting about one person's performance in game, and the second half is about his "suggestion" to fix promotion matches in ranked but it is not really convincing, unorganized in it's goals for having a discussion, and the OP even admits at the end that he's just "rambling at this point". So, this just shows that he didn't really put a lot of effort in wanting to have a discussion about the promotion matches in ranked, and made it more about venting on one of his teammate's performance. There might even have been something worth discussing here: Is the structure of promotion matches in ranked frustrating to players? Should we add a "demotion" series to ranked? But the thread itself is poor constructed that it doesn't allow discussion to really happen.

That concludes the rational behind my voting. Took a while to write but I hope it becomes useful in helping to improve the quality of discussion here on the boards. Thanks again for coming up with this exercise. GL HF!

SecretAgentHulk9/6/2014, 4:52:11 AM2 votes

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/fancreations/nEZ4qmGs-lore-discussion-what-happened-in-shurima

Was interesting. Also the Stattik Shyv joke one. :)

No vote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/ZN9z7kZP-wow-okay-riot-look

Disagreed, but thought author had legit point and was not unconstructive.

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/R79fMvFy-communication-according-to-the-riot-lore-team

Was complaining. Had no substance.

Luner Hunter9/6/2014, 5:41:43 AM2 votes

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NEicioHJ-lets-calmly-discuss-sorakas-kit?

i hate the mindless slaughter of all healers because morello says

I've been against healing as a role a long time

even in that exact thread

Downvote: Morello in general since he can't do anything but spout hate for people who want to be able to have a "healers fantasy"

Pryotra9/6/2014, 6:57:00 AM2 votes

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NEicioHJ-lets-calmly-discuss-sorakas-kit

Lot's of good, civil discussion
Kept on topic
Not really that hostile in the OP, and while more Hostiles did enter the thread, the general tone of the OP and the thread was discussion

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/gsQ0lmW8-a-psa-to-those-complaining-about-the-lore-changes

Talks down to audience, not civil or good grounds for discussion
OP contradicts their own point several times
Speaks against voicing opinions, at least until the damage is done

cshakes9/6/2014, 12:00:02 PM2 votes

Upvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/g0E15AYy-a-case-for-the-league-of-legends The poster makes a well-thought-out point with arguments that support it. Further, I agree with him/her.

Downvote: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/yO9xMcIr-i-have-not-and-will-not-spend-money-on-this-game-explanation The points the poster made were flawed. (Honestly, it doesn't take that much mental fortitude to just not flame.) I disagreed with him/her, and didn't see a reason for the post to gain visibility.

Comments: I am from EUNE. I can't vote on comments anymore. Fix pls? :(

For me, "upvote" means a mixture of agreement and "this deserves visibility". I'll upvote something that I agree with even if the OP's points aren't all that well argued if the comments make a better point. I used to upvote comments that I thought deserved better visibility (amazing artwork, good argument etc) or upvote as a means of saying "I agree with you and your arguments". I only downvote troll threads/QQ threads about how everyone sucks/downright offensive threads (blatant racism, sexism etc). I used to downvote badly-argued comments that I disagreed with.

Hellioning9/5/2014, 9:11:21 PM2 votes

I don't usually upvote or downvote topics themselves. I usually just vote on the comments. I upvote comments that I feel are particularly well throught out, though I do have a bias towards things I agree with. I only downvote comments that are inflammatory or use language that I dislike. Or the occasional 'your spelling and grammar are so bad I cannot understand you.'

Flemman9/6/2014, 1:03:12 PM2 votes

Personnaly, I can't vote because of the login thing who never stop pop up :p

Daen9/5/2014, 10:25:59 PM1 votes

So far it seems like there's a consistent trend of inconsistency. :P

Korik3339/6/2014, 6:42:14 AM1 votes

I feel the thing you might be kinda referring to is the lore fiasco, and will address my comment as such. I downvoted many of the Rioter comments there because, in addition to posting comments voicing my displeasure about it, which I did as well, the upvote/downvote system is simply too binary to easily convey meaning. While it is unfortunate that the comments become hidden as a result of downvoting, I also cannot upvote the comments without seeming to convey my approval of it, which I did not want to do. I believe there should be three options on a comment, truthfully, upvote, downvote, and mark as spam. That way there will be no mixed messages on what upvotes and downvotes mean.

RandomICE9/7/2014, 5:53:05 PM1 votes

Downvoted

Two reasons, one because I strongly disagree with the points made by the OP, and I feel that going in this direction would invalidate a lot of this game's identity to the point where it can be considered jumping the shark because of the following reasons:

The game's title would have to be renamed because there no longer exists a league within the lore.
All the champions that joined the league with a personal goal in mind are no longer able to fulfill that goal.
Lee Sin will no longer be a valid champion because his entire lore revolves around being a former summoner-to-be which summoners are no longer considered to be canon, so that doesn't make sense.
The 1st trailer will be unappreciated because it again revolves around the non-canon summoner element.
Several champion quotes will be invalidated because they (AGAIN!) revolve around interacting with a summoner. Who is Vayne responding to when she says "Joke? What do you mean?", and who the hell is instructing her to tell a joke anyway? Herself? That would make her crazy, but that would be the case with this new lore. Also, there would no reason for Sona to have ANY quotes whatsoever, seeing as the only person who can hear her, the summoner, no longer exists within the lore (This would also mean that her in-game voice is non-canon, since she will have no one to talk to in the lore world).

The list goes on.

The second reason is there is no meaningful discussion to be had. 90% of the posts are people showing discontentment with the new lore direction and their reasons why. And the other 10% are reds responding to praise while being unwilling or unable to justify their position. Despite the fact that I want the discussion to be visible, I can't bring myself to upvote it because that would imply that I am in support of the points brought on by the OP, which I would have to be a complete idiot to do.

Upvoted

While not necessarily a topic meant to generate discussion, it is a good topic to raise awareness about. However, I will agree to disagree when it comes to upvotes and downvotes, as I view them as a way to show agreement or disagreement. Upvoting a discussion, while it does help raise awareness about the topic, it also sends the impression that general consensus is that people agree with the topic, even though it may not be entirely the case.

Xenohaz9/7/2014, 11:09:58 PM1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/fancreations/E4gN9puK-we-just-cant-find-a-way-to-tell-stories-with-this-whole-league-thing-in-the-way-well-we-did Upvote

I upvoted this because I understand what the OP is trying to say, even if I don't agree with all of his points. I also upvoted because he civilly responded to my reply voicing my disagreement. Finally, I upvoted this because I feel the issues the OP discussed need more attention and acknowledgment by the community at large.