These boards have way too much censorship.

Sydelle·Nov 23, 2014·64 votes·6,228 views

I pointed out that Kalista's lore has a suicide leading into a reward (power to take vengeance) and, not only was it deleted, but I got sent a message about not promoting suicide. In fact, I was doing the opposite. The censorship in these boards is completely out of control. [Story & Art: all those S&A moderators want is someone to stroke their ego or GTFO].

I took issue with the way Riot Ant in Oz describes Kalista as "noble" because she gives desperate people the chance to take vengeance (at the cost of their life & soul) against people that have committed an act of betrayal. I said that it's not fair NOR right to describe to a teenage mass that such an entity (Kalista) is "noble."

Riot Ant in Oz honestly does not believe he has described a suicide. He firmly believes he has described a noble sacrifice, and preached that Kalista "was not malicious" in Kalista's Q&A. This stubborn refusal to admit that his creation is evil or the description of suicide as a "noble sacrifice" does not fit the audience towards which the story is being directed: underdeveloped adults. In this, the writer has failed to take an honest stock of his audience and violated professional writers' first question: WHO IS MY AUDIENCE?

In creating a "noble" demon that collects suicidal "sacrifices" on the wake of Riot Damiya's suicide -- something that I'm still trying to come to terms with - this writer has not only demonstrated extreme thoughtlessness but also lack of moral character. This is just my opinion. This country was founded on the premise that everyone has a right to express their opinion. Anyone here has a right to express to me why they think I'm wrong, but in attempting to censor criticism, Riot is isolating itself from its customer base. This amounts to wanting your customer base to be stupid, non-sentient consumers that stroke your egos and who never challenge you............ all while waiting to receive a paycheck derived from that costumer base.

It is right to express disgust with a human being's choice to romanticize suicide in Kalista's lore. It is right to mention the insensitive TIMING of the release of this lore. Just because a team of people gave this champion the green light, doesn't mean that you haven't all done collectively wrong. There is no safety in numbers where right or wrong is concerned. If we send 200k soldiers to invade a far away country on the premise it contains WMDs but we are wrong about that, believe me RIOT, you can and you will make collective mistakes too.

You have no right to mask suicide as a "noble sacrifice" in a teen game nor to prevent me from stating the obvious: the fact that you had collective gap of insight and wisdom.

In accusing Riot Ant in Oz of being thoughtless, I have given reasons for the accusation. Teens are riddled with angst and these days not a single one of them goes through high school without someone in their class attempting suicide. I gave the example of the most recent high school shooting because it was relevant: the teen used suicide to exact vengeance (on his gf cheating). I brought that example up to elucidate how the LORE and its AUDIENCE do not harmonize in a constructive way. I stated these things to help you as a company. When you are blind to something you have failed to see as a collective, it doesn't mean you are right. Hell, the majority in this world are usually wrong. Isn't it harder to become a genius than to drop out of college? Aren't you the ones who designed an LP system that states: "the majority really can't play our game well"? Then why do you think that because you have made a decision on this matter as a collective, then you are right?

Do you think I enjoy being here wringing your ear about the fact you did wrong? Fuck no. I hate it. Are you incapable of identifying what genuine sacrifice looks like? This is what sacrifice looks like. I'm not enjoying being here typing this to you for the fifth time and you doing what you think is going fix it: deleting me and kicking me to the curb, banning me like a dog instead of a friend who is telling you that you shouldn't go down a bad path.

I feel a moral obligation to let you know that you have done wrong with this lore. Someone in that Kalista team had misgivings about the story for the right reasons. That's just what I intuit happened because there's inconsistencies in the story like Kalista saying "my husband wouldn't want me to do this" (as she was committing suicide) but then she does it anyway and Ant comes here to say that "it's a sacrifice for her family."

If you are living in a country that believes in the right of free expression then you shouldn't be despots that delete and ban every critic that is genuinely trying to help you out by giving you some heartfelt feedback.

God Bless.

96 Comments

NarasimhaNov 23, 201415 votes

Do note that suicide is often defined by one's attempt to kill oneself from DESPAIR. Although it can be said the sword-woman was sad, it can easily be identified that her actions were motivated primarily by revenge and hatred. This is a key difference. Kalista isn't just saying "Kill yourself." She is asking "Are you prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice?" I mean, you're asking a centuries old Avatar of Vengeance for aid, its not going to accept anything less than full commitment.

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20144 votes

Still, I don't think there was anything to be gained from the story as-is.* It didn't add anything to Kalista's lore (except that she asks you to kill yourself, I guess), and it didn't add any depth to the world of League. It only added an edgy story about a woman who commits suicide for revenge.

NarasimhaNov 23, 20143 votes

Not every story has to impact the world at large. Look at Gnar's lore, or Shaco's, or Rammus's. The point is, it added depth to Kalista's tale. We learn that she's not just a wandering spirit of revenge, she's a harbinger, carrying the souls of all those who called her name. We learned that summoning her isn't just another ritual or spell, its a sacrifice of blood and soul, a decision not made lightly. We learn that to Kalista, each caller isn't just a client, its a mission and responsibility that she takes on personally. Sure, you could just glance over it and say "Eh, she killed herself for revenge." Or you can take a second look and say "For a woman who had nothing else to lose, she gave up everything to pursue her vengeance."

BaculusNov 24, 20143 votes

Why was she vengeful and hateful? Because she was sad and heartbroken. Suicides due to impulsiveness from anger aren't uncommon by any stretch and the comparison you make is poor. The whole concept of suicide is :"are you prepared for the ultimate sacrifice?", to have some peace.

PryotraNov 25, 20141 votes

I find it ironic that my reply to you got censored in a thread about over censorship. Rito pls. =(

Basically, you're wrong. Suicide is a form of sacrifice, they are still glorifying the act. I can't go any further due to censorship from the Rito overlords.

NarasimhaNov 25, 20142 votes

That's... even more wrong.

Sacrifice is the offering of food, objects or the lives of animals to a higher purpose, in particular divine beings, as an act of propitiation or worship.

If you're sacrificing something, then you're giving it up in hopes that it serves a better purpose. If a soldier jumps on a grenade for his squad, is that suicide or a sacrifice? If a man takes a bullet for his family, is that suicide or a sacrifice?

In this case, the sword-wife isn't dying for the sake of dying or because she wants peace (hell the exact opposite), she's doing it because to her, its a sacrifice that is worth what she is asking for.

SydelleNov 26, 20143 votes

If a soldier jumps on a grenade for his squad, is that suicide or a sacrifice? If a man takes a bullet for his family, is that suicide or a sacrifice?

This confusion again. I tell you. Not a single adult over 30 that reads this thread has any right to think that Kalista's story doesn't confuse the fuck out of teenagers after reading what they are posting here.

Let's go over this lesson again:

The soldier and the man that "jumps on a grenade for his squad" (whatever that means, seems gratuitous to me) or that "takes a bullet for the family" are giving up a MORTAL LIFE out of SELFLESS LOVE so that others might LIVE. The complete OPPOSITE of heroism is to give up your ETERNAL LIFE out of CONSUMING HATRED so that one mortal person might DIE (notice that the bad guy retains his soul, unlike the dumbass that gave up eternity so, in essence, the shield-wife is a slave for eternity and the Oathbreaker is a free-will demon of Kalista's stature if he so desires. Shield-wife gets completely rek'd by her suicide decision).

In this case, the sword-wife isn't dying for the sake of dying or because she wants peace (hell the exact opposite), she's doing it because to her, its a sacrifice that is worth what she is asking for.

Sword-wife gives up her soul (eternity) to take away the one man's MORTAL (not eternal) life. She values vengeance over eternity because vengeance will give her a perverted sense of satisfaction. She is VALUING vengeance as equal to the worth of her priceless soul. She devalues her soul and puts a priceless tag on vengeance.

Since vengeance to the sword-wife would be pleasurable, she strikes a deal to get what SHE wants (not what the family wants as stated in the lore! please read it). She is not committing sacrifice because her family doesn't want her to do it, and that is stated in the lore. If she is paying for something that SHE ALONE wants, she's no different than a shopper at the mall. Sacrifice is leaving the money to buy what you want with the homeless at the door.

The only way that Kalista's deal is 'worth' is if you've never had a single theology lesson in your lifetime, which amounts to every kid in public school in the USA and roughly 90% of the League American playerbase.

I think in light of the fact that kids are not getting any ethics/philosophy lessons at school, the very least Riot could do is not confuse the fuck out of them even further.

KzooCrasherNov 26, 20143 votes

If this promotes suicide then those who did it because of this are simply using it as an excuse for something they were already going to do. Its a fantasy story with things that aren't even remotely real in the world we live in. Its like saying we should sensor history in schools and not tell teens about monks that lit themselves on fire out of protest... or we should take out any history about hunger strikes because it encourages eating disorders...

ScåthachNov 29, 20143 votes

As I scroll down the page, I see a lot of different viewpoints and arguments being made. I have a question: according to the title of this post, shouldn't we all be discussing/focusing on something else? The title, which is what originally caught my attention, is as follows:

"These boards have way too much censorship."

I read what Sydelle had to say, and in the first paragraph or so, I agreed, that the boards had way too much censorship.

But as I scrolled down her post, it started talking about Riot Ant's extreme thoughtlessness and lack of moral character. To my surprise, the majority of the thing turned out to be a complaint to Riot about romanticizing suicide and teaching them what morally right things to do were. In turn, this is what everyone started discussing.

Sydelle is correct in saying that the censorship here is out of control. S/he is right. America gives us the right to speak out among other things. She speaks of the individual rights for people, and I agree that shouldn't be violated.

HOWEVER. I just want to point out, like so many others have said, that @Sydelle:

Your view of her encouraging suicide in young adults/teens is your view, it certainly doesn't encourage me to die so I can die for a noble sacrifice,
things like sinning and moral teachings partially come fromyour personal, innate bias from things like your age group/ religious background and
there are many other so-called "immoral" champions in League of Legends. Why fixate on this one? I'm seeing a lot of unnecessary hating all over this board and it doesn't even coincide with the post's title.

I'm a teen. I've been diagnosed with a major depressive disorder and on heavy medication. I'm Christian, which by the way, does not entitle me to immunity from depression and suicide. I'm staying at home because the doctor said I should not go to school. I've hated a fair amount of things done to me by the people around me like normal human beings do.. and Kalista? I fell in love with the champ, read her lore, and if I'm going to kill myself, I sure ain't going to do that because of some champion lore in a game I play.

if you ask me? That would be truly stupid. That would be what labeled anyone else who was encouraged to kill themselves, because of something like this, as part of the stupid customer base you mentioned.

Hinro HonatoNov 23, 201411 votes

So murder is fine but suicide is taboo? I'm sorry but this is simply confusing. Murdering someone is a far worse thing to do. You are forcibly stealing the life from someone who does not want that to happen. Suicide on the other hand is nothing like that, It is some one personally making a choice. You don't need to like it or agree with that persons choice, it's not up to you. The freedom to live also includes the freedom to die. To force someone to live when they have no desire to is simply evil. Again your feelings on the matter have no baring on this issue.

Now onto the hypocrisy. You feel wronged because you feel that you were censored? Well the problem is, you're trying to censor others. This is just plain hypocrisy. You don't like the lore because you feel it is morally wrong to kill your self so the lore must be changed. This is you trying to censor others.

Would you call a suicide that saves other people from being murdered and tortured noble?

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20142 votes

Your argument re: suicide vs murder is valid even if I do not agree. EDIT: I think every suicide is a loss. My understanding, from learning and experience, is that depressed suicide happens more because depression is a mental block preventing you from feeling that you are loved, you are a decent person, your life has value, etc than because life (apart from the block) is so bad that suicide is the best way forward. I would consider that a person who sacrifices their life to save others from being murdered and tortured made a noble choice, but there is nothing noble about revenge. The spear-wife in Ant in Oz's story did not save anyone.

Hypocrisy is saying to do something and not doing it yourself. I am not a hypocrite. I feel wronged because the person decided to call me one because he decided I was doing nothing to make society a better place, which he had no way of knowing and was wrong to assume. It has nothing to do with censorship, except insofar as his argument was "you're doing nothing to make the world better so you can't talk about making LoL better." Or can you tell me how I'm being a hypocrite?

PryotraNov 24, 20147 votes

He didn't say it was morally wrong to commit suicide. He said it was morally wrong to romanticize it to teenagers after a fellow Rioter just committed the act. Big difference. Doing that almost says that Riot endorses it, but not quite.

As far as Hypocrisy, he wasn't. He never asked for differing views to be censored. He asked for us not to talk up suicide around minors after such an event. While that may sound one in the same, consider this: If you want to talk about blowing up a building, would you do it on 9/11 in a FBI building? It's being aware of not only your audience, but your surroundings as well. Your freedom of speech ends when someone is offended. Saying something extremely offensive and not relenting when asked to stop is in fact infringing on others rights to peace. Keep that in mind.

BaculusNov 24, 20143 votes

While people might dismiss this post, I've worked with and talked to a lot of people in the mental health care system. These sort of messages **do ** have an effect on someone moving towards that mindset and can help justify the attempt. I am not saying that Riot is somehow to be blamed for suicides, mind. Just their target demographic is highly at risk for this sort've thing and they should know better.

If they were really set on this 'suicide' angle, instead, they should've already had her mortally wounded to begin with and move from there. Write this spirit of vengeance as an agent of the damned and dying. Makes it deeper IMO; kinda like Davy Jones' crew in Pirates of the Carribean.

SydelleNov 24, 20145 votes

While people might dismiss this post, I've worked with and talked to a lot of people in the mental health care system. These sort of messages **do ** have an effect on someone moving towards that mindset and can help justify the attempt. I am not saying that Riot is somehow to be blamed for suicides, mind. Just their target demographic is highly at risk for this sort've thing and they should know better.

If they were really set on this 'suicide' angle, instead, they should've already had her mortally wounded to begin with and move from there. Write this spirit of vengeance as an agent of the damned and dying. Makes it deeper IMO; kinda like Davy Jones' crew in Pirates of the Carribean.

I'm in agreement with Baculus.

I brought this up before but it was deleted. The implied message has a stronger persuasive power than the explicit message. Therein, McDonald's doesn't describe in a commercial why their food is good, but show people eating it that are (1) thin, (2) healthy and, most importantly, (3) happy. Your brain receives the implied message and processes that message with a lot less scrutiny than the words in the advertisement. Subliminal messaging is a science taught in university, and the educated person can detect them.

Kalista's writer painted a picture of a suicide that was a (deceit follows) "noble sacrifice" for a family that (truth follows) didn't want her to do it. The writer goes thus far as to describe the swords-wife was happy with her decision to commit suicide for now (in death, romanticizing life after sucide) "she could see Kalista clearer, as Kalista had been in life, a noble warrior." The implied messages of Kalista's lore: that an entity requiring your soul as payment is "noble" or that suicide may be a conduit for powerful rewards, such as the capacity to take revenge, are (keeping it atheist) (1) toxic to the mental health of the target audience and (2) (keeping it theologically enlightened) nothing more than the 666,666,666th iteration of the same old Devil's pact story.

Hinro HonatoNov 24, 20143 votes

I don't know how quoting works on here so do forgive me if I screw it up.

He didn't say it was morally wrong to commit suicide. He said it was morally wrong to romanticize it to teenagers after a fellow Rioter just committed the act. Big difference. Doing that almost says that Riot endorses it, but not quite.

I'm sorry but I disagree. If you live in the united states and many other places you are already being indoctrinated with romanticized suicide. Or have you managed to miss all those crosses around? If you want to stop romanticized suicide then you really have a very long trek ahead of you. Good luck getting rid of the Abrahamic religions.

Also I'm curious, why is one former rioters suicide more valued than murder victims? This is a game where we actively seek out and murder other players in a genocidal manner. Why do you not care about the feelings of murder victims families? This is bringing back horrible memories of their losses and you don't bat an eye at it. So why is a single suicide in a games lore worth so much more than the countless murders?

As far as Hypocrisy, he wasn't. He never asked for differing views to be censored. He asked for us not to talk up suicide around minors after such an event. While that may sound one in the same,

Because it is one in the same. Censorship is attempting to suppress view points that you do not like which is the original posters entire deal regardless of their reasons. Saying you can not talk about or use topics in a story is censorship plain and simple. It is hypocritical that they argue against censorship while actively promoting it.

consider this: If you want to talk about blowing up a building, would you do it on 9/11 in a FBI building? It's being aware of not only your audience, but your surroundings as well.

Relevant how? I'm not seeing the connection here.

Your freedom of speech ends when someone is offended. Saying something extremely offensive and not relenting when asked to stop is in fact infringing on others rights to peace. Keep that in mind.

oh no the fuck it doesn't. We have freedom of speech for this very reason. You don't need freedom of speech to protect popular speech, You need it to protect the things that you do not like being said. You can say the most heinous things you can think of about me and I will gladly fight for your right to do that. Your definition of freedom of speech is not correct and falls under oppression. There is absolutely no freedom to not be offended.

Wrong because ones suicide can mentally screw up a family member the rest of their life and make them want to commit suicide. Suicide is the most selfish thing one can do.

As can a murder. Why the double standard?

I would consider that a person who sacrifices their life to save others from being murdered and tortured made a noble choice, but there is nothing noble about revenge. The spear-wife in Ant in Oz's story did not save anyone.

This is where we disagree. I will argue that sword-wifes suicide did in fact save other people from being murdered and tortured. The betrayer in the story had already ordered the murders of her family and of others. This leads me to believe that it is not uncommon for that character to do this or at the very least there is no indication that they would not do it again in the future to countless other people. With the sword-wifes sacrifice of her life she has assured that the betrayer will have no more victims. It could very well be deemed a noble sacrifice. What if they betrayer had gone on to amass an army? How many lives would be destroyed due to them? How many lives were saved by the sacrifice? This we can truly never know but it is interesting to think about. It is completely possible that I'm right and it's also possible that I'm completely wrong here, there truly is no way of knowing.

DreamspitterNov 24, 20141 votes

So murder is fine but suicide is taboo? I'm sorry but this is simply confusing. Murdering someone is a far worse thing to do. You are forcibly stealing the life from someone who does not want that to happen. Suicide on the other hand is nothing like that, It is some one personally making a choice. You don't need to like it or agree with that persons choice, it's not up to you. The freedom to live also includes the freedom to die. To force someone to live when they have no desire to is simply evil. Again your feelings on the matter have no baring on this issue.

Basically, all of this.

SydelleNov 25, 20146 votes

So murder is fine but suicide is taboo? I'm sorry but this is simply confusing. Murdering someone is a far worse thing to do. You are forcibly stealing the life from someone who does not want that to happen. Suicide on the other hand is nothing like that, It is some one personally making a choice. You don't need to like it or agree with that persons choice, it's not up to you. The freedom to live also includes the freedom to die. To force someone to live when they have no desire to is simply evil. Again your feelings on the matter have no baring on this issue.

Basically, all of this.

I'm not understanding the idea that "murder is fine." It's been stated multiple times as though I'm saying it but I have never said such a thing. Murder is bad, of course. Why do you think that I think that murder is fine? >< Why do you put these words in my mouth without a better explanation?

I'm actually all for people deciding their destiny as it regards to progress onward with life or to end it. When the Damiya thing happened, I was on the side of that being his/her decision (it's in the archives of the old forum). That's not going to get me to stop telling a friend not to do it, or to try to help such friend get out of depression.

Or to make sure my creative artwork doesn't subliminally encourage suicide.

DaenNov 23, 20148 votes

I pointed out that Kalista's lore has a suicide leading into a reward (power to take vengeance) and, not only was it deleted, but I got sent a message about not promoting suicide.

What was the tone of your comment? Do you have an archive we might be able to view?

As for the moderation, it definitely still has some kinks. I can't speak to your particular situation, but this isn't super common nor is it super uncommon.

This country was founded on the premise that everyone has a right to express their opinion.

Riot Games is not the United States. This game is private property of Riot Games exclusively, and they make all the rules by which we abide. As long as what they are doing does not directly violate federal or state law, anything goes. Riot could decide tomorrow that they no longer want to allow their players to suggest anything to them; it's totally within their right to do so.

Anyone here has a right to express to me why they think I'm wrong, but in attempting to censor criticism, Riot is isolating itself from its customer base. This amounts to wanting your customer base to be stupid, non-sentient consumers that stroke your egos and who never challenge you............ all while waiting to receive a paycheck derived from that costumer base.

Why do you feel Riot wants their playerbase to be stupid and not passionate about the game?

While I agree that the idea of encouraging suicide is not a positive thing, I don't feel this particular situation does so. It's a fantasy world where champions have magical powers and infinite respawns, so it's really not applicable to reality.

This particular argument, to me, is a bit like the gaming causes violence issue. A lot of people seem to think that violent video games like Grand Theft Auto make people violent, and use examples like school shooters that happened to play those violent games. It's completely backwards logic, and there is zero correlation whatsoever between the two factors of violent video game consumption and aggressive behavior. I know this isn't exactly what you're referring to, but it's a similar concept.

One other thing to keep in mind; restricting a designer purely based on the fact that a particular choice can potentially be viewed negatively is extraordinarily bad for the industry. The ideas of requiring female characters when it doesn't fit the story or avoiding certain themes like death can be really damaging, and are like a vise grip on developers that want to break the mold.

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20142 votes

This particular argument, to me, is a bit like the gaming causes violence issue. A lot of people seem to think that violent video games like Grand Theft Auto make people violent, and use examples like school shooters that happened to play those violent games. It's completely backwards logic, and there is zero correlation whatsoever between the two factors of violent video game consumption and aggressive behavior. I know this isn't exactly what you're referring to, but it's a similar concept.

I don't believe that violent video games cause people to become violent (otherwise I'd be the most violent person out there), but suicide-as-revenge is not a topic that should be broached lightly, and certainly never upheld as a "noble sacrifice". It's the same reason why bullying is so bad (or, one of the reasons why)—you never know when someone actually will take the bully's advice to just kill themself.

DaenNov 23, 20143 votes

suicide-as-revenge is not a topic that should be broached lightly, and certainly never upheld as a "noble sacrifice"

Noble sacrifice is absolutely a thing. Someone else had a similar example, but say you are participating in a war. You see an opportunity where you are absolutely sure you will die, but it will end the war and save millions of people. If you take this opportunity, you're technically committing suicide; the intention is noble, however, since you feel you know the outcome. Thus, noble sacrifice.

I won't get into this much, but personally I feel like we have this really weird stigma surrounding suicide. Themes of murdering other people are totally fine in video games, but the instant someone mentions killing oneself it's suddenly taboo. It's interesting that this is the case, because murder directly hurts another person whereas suicide directly hurts only the person making the decision to do so.

you never know when someone actually will take the bully's advice to just kill themself.

The solution here is not to outlaw all mention of suicide; the solution is to address the root causes and help people feel they don't need to resort to such drastic measures. You're effectively advocating for censorship, here. noble sacrifice is a concept that we as a society actually revere; heroes in our stories and literature tend to be those that make an ultimate sacrifice to save those they love or to bring down their wrath (in the case of villains).

Hell, Voldemort is a decent example of this. He didn't commit suicide, obviously, but he made some huge sacrifices just to be more evil. It's a similar concept, particularly when Kalista is able to continue her revenge. Kalista's suicide is not really suicide; she came back with a vengeance. This doesn't happen in real life, and there really isn't much of a parallel. To really draw that parallel, Kalista wouldn't exist in the game at all because she'd be dead.

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20142 votes

Thank you for explaining this rationally and without name-calling. +1

AnidanNov 24, 20143 votes

I do agree that there is such a thing as noble sacrifice, but your example actually isn't what they were referring to. Suicide-as-revenge isn't noble, because it's revenge. You're giving yourself up for what would have been personal gain - that isn't a noble sacrifice, however it is essentially what Kalista embodies. Your example is a great example of a noble sacrifice, though. I like it.

SydelleNov 25, 20143 votes

suicide-as-revenge is not a topic that should be broached lightly, and certainly never upheld as a "noble sacrifice"

Noble sacrifice is absolutely a thing. Someone else had a similar example, but say you are participating in a war. You see an opportunity where you are absolutely sure you will die, but it will end the war and save millions of people. If you take this opportunity, you're technically committing suicide; the intention is noble, however, since you feel you know the outcome. Thus, noble sacrifice.

Giving up your life so that others might live is completely different than giving up your soul so that one person may die. A life is less than the blink of an eye vs eternity. Also, the valiant defenders are allowing others to live at the cost of their own life. They are not giving their life AND soul for the motive of exacting vengeance.

I won't get into this much, but personally I feel like we have this really weird stigma surrounding suicide. Themes of murdering other people are totally fine in video games, but the instant someone mentions killing oneself it's suddenly taboo. It's interesting that this is the case, because murder directly hurts another person whereas suicide directly hurts only the person making the decision to do so.

A murderer is evil and his actions are damning, but nobody at Riot has stepped forth and called a murderer "noble" or "not malicious." This thread criticizes the portrayal of a person committing suicide as having made an admirable choice, and the entity requiring her soul as payment as "noble."

you never know when someone actually will take the bully's advice to just kill themself.

The solution here is not to outlaw all mention of suicide; the solution is to address the root causes and help people feel they don't need to resort to such drastic measures. You're effectively advocating for censorship, here. noble sacrifice is a concept that we as a society actually revere; heroes in our stories and literature tend to be those that make an ultimate sacrifice to save those they love or to bring down their wrath (in the case of villains).

I don't understand why the details are flying over your head, Daen. I loathe to suspect it's because it's convenient for your argument? I'm not here criticizing the portrayal of suicide (i'm not advocating censorship) but I am criticizing the portrayal of suicide as a "noble sacrifice" and the offering of a devil's pact as coming from a "noble" entity. As for your last two lines, I see in you such MASSIVE confusion created by, no doubt, thoughtless and ignorant teachers. So I'm going to explain this again: the swords-wife is paying with her SOUL so that a person she HATES will DIE. The noble heroes that our civilization "reveres" are people that give their MORTAL LIFE in an act of SELFLESS LOVE so that others might LIVE. You are talking completely OPPOSITE things and confusing them. -.- Please think about it. I spent 13 years in a monastery learning this key difference among other things so surely, you can give me a bit of respect, tolerance and patience when I tell you that you are confused and you should carefully review what you are writing and thinking. Please.

Hell, Voldemort is a decent example of this. He didn't commit suicide, obviously, but he made some huge sacrifices just to be more evil. It's a similar concept, particularly when Kalista is able to continue her revenge. Kalista's suicide is not really suicide; she came back with a vengeance. This doesn't happen in real life, and there really isn't much of a parallel. To really draw that parallel, Kalista wouldn't exist in the game at all because she'd be dead.

Kalista was murdered. She didn't commit suicide, and neither you nor I have 3 fucking clues whether it's happened in real life. Sacrifice is charity. It's not purchasing. Voldemort PAYS with whatever he paid to get something he really wanted. That's what a lot of people do at the mall. Sacrifice is going to the mall and giving your money to the homeless person that is begging instead of buying what you really wanted.

I'm so mad at the educational system that deprived you of ethics or philosophy lessons. I'm literally smiting several people that promised the parents could do a good job of it without acknowledging that morals deteriorate over generations when there are no morality teachers.

DaenNov 25, 20141 votes

I don't understand why the details are flying over your head, Daen. I loathe to suspect it's because it's convenient for your argument? As for your last two lines, I see in you such MASSIVE confusion created by, no doubt, thoughtless and ignorant teachers. You are talking completely OPPOSITE things and confusing them. -.- Please think about it. I spent 13 years in a monastery learning this key difference among other things so surely, you can give me a bit of respect, tolerance and patience when I tell you that you are confused and you should carefully review what you are writing and thinking. Please.

I'm just going to go ahead and ignore this part, I hope that's OK. Should be pretty obvious why I'm not really addressing it.

I'm not here criticizing the portrayal of suicide (i'm not advocating censorship) but I am criticizing the portrayal of suicide as a "noble sacrifice" and the offering of a devil's pact as coming from a "noble" entity. So I'm going to explain this again: the swords-wife is paying with her SOUL so that a person she HATES will DIE. The noble heroes that our civilization "reveres" are people that give their MORTAL LIFE in an act of SELFLESS LOVE so that others might LIVE.

As far as noble suicide hatred killing people is concerned? I get it. I truly do understand your position there, but the reality is that the whole situation surrounding Kalista is completely impossible in our living, breathing lives. Something like Graves' cigar I can kind of understand (making smoking look cool, Graves is still super fit and healthy, whatever), since that's something that is realistically an issue in many people's lives. Giving up my soul in exchange for undying revenge is completely impossible, and it's akin to saying that I will stab someone with a unicorn and gain their genetic powers.

As for the idea of the nobility of suicide for the purposes of revenge, it seems like it comes from Kalista's perspective. She feels that what she is doing is noble, thus her storyline is considered to be noble. Riot has given us the opportunity to draw our own conclusions in that regard.

Kalista was murdered. She didn't commit suicide, and neither you nor I have 3 fucking clues whether it's happened in real life.

I'm confused; are we saying that we have no clue whether murder has happened in real life?

Sacrifice is charity. It's not purchasing. Voldemort PAYS with whatever he paid to get something he really wanted. That's what a lot of people do at the mall. Sacrifice is going to the mall and giving your money to the homeless person that is begging instead of buying what you really wanted.

I'm not sure what you're going for here. Is the mall bad and giving to beggars good?

Voldemort maiming himself to allow for more killing is like going to the mall, in this analogy; wouldn't an ethereal spear thrower maiming herself to allow for more killing be a similar concept?

The only real difference is that Voldemort is portrayed as a villain whereas Kalista is portrayed as noble; it gets interesting when you dig into it, however, because Voldemort is actually written as being noble. He thinks that everything he is doing is best for the wizards, and he truly believes that he is helping everyone see the light. This really isn't that far off from Kalista, depending on how deep you go.

I'm so mad at the educational system that deprived you of ethics or philosophy lessons. I'm literally smiting several people that promised the parents could do a good job of it without acknowledging that morals deteriorate over generations when there are no morality teachers.

It really doesn't lend credence to your argument to be insulting my sense of morality or my instruction thereof. Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean I'm for some reason uneducated or deprived of ethics.

SydelleNov 26, 20142 votes

I get it. I truly do understand your position there, but the reality is that the whole situation surrounding Kalista is completely impossible in our living, breathing lives. Giving up my soul in exchange for undying revenge is completely impossible, and it's akin to saying that I will stab someone with a unicorn and gain their genetic powers.

You said that the situation surrounding Kalista is completely impossible in our living, breathing lives, and I had answered that with "Neither you nor I have 3 fucking clues about whether it's happened in real life." For example: right now as I type this, there are institutionalized mental health patients who talk about seeing entities that nobody else sees. Some of those patients commit suicide. We cannot prove anything about what happened after their deaths nor can we prove without a reasonable doubt that the patient's hallucination isn't real in a parallel universe (that we might visit upon death). What we do know is that our brains are made of stuff that blinks in and out of our dimensional space (quantum particles). What we can easily observe a politician that lies gets more power, that a popstar who sells out (of Disney, for example) gets more fame, that a businessman who backstabs gets wealthier. The list of examples like these is infinite; it goes all the way back to the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis.

You want to know what is truly hilarious about an atheist? They only believe what they can see and measure, all while their brain is blinking in and out of existence. Hilarious! The moment physicists discovered that our entire world is made of particles that change their behavior when you observe and/or measure them, you hear the laughter of a God that has a good sense of humor. This video below explains some of the quantum stuff I'm talking about in simple terms:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20144 votes

+1. This is a discussion we should be having.

Cold JusticeNov 25, 20144 votes

Damorion, have you seen this poll? I think you should bookmark it and keep track of the data it is generating:

http://generaldiscussions.boards.net/thread/1171/age

The majority of the population haven't graduated high school. Also, anyone that plays this game will naturally assume that they are the largest demographic. It's a common mistake.

DaenNov 25, 20141 votes

That poll has like 50 people; it's somewhere in the ballpark of 3x10^-7 of the population, which is around 0.0000003%. It has zero statistical relevance whatsoever, and should never be used as a data point.

SydelleNov 25, 20142 votes

That poll has like 50 people; it's somewhere in the ballpark of 3x10^-7 of the population, which is around 0.0000003%. It has zero statistical relevance whatsoever, and should never be used as a data point.

Did you know 2,000 random people are selected to create a datapoint for Consumer Consumption every year by the US?

Still, I think it is right for you to argue the relevance of that particular poll, however: I've been in this community for years and have seen many such polls and over and over again, teenagers win the poll. They are the majority unless someone can create a believable poll to prove otherwise.

Fury and EmperorNov 23, 20143 votes

I think it makes perfect sense from Kalista's own point of view. She's the avatar of vengeance and if someone wants to off themselves to seek vengeance, she's fine with it because more vengeance is always better than less vengeance. Perhaps it's not a morality shared by the majority, but that's why the majority is not an avatar of vengeance.

She just stands out because she isn't bowdlerized like Aatrox, but many League characters have dubious morals or at the very least have no issues with killing hundreds with a cheer and smile (and giant lasers). The entire game is about shooting the little girl in the face with a shotgun before she sets you on fire. The difference with Postal or Madworld is that League follows cartoon conventions and therefore beaning people with a sledgehammer or throwing a bomb in their face only humiliates them and doesn't splatter their brains all over the Rift.

So the story doesn't portray suicide as despicable? So what? There was a time when crime in movies had to be punished or else the movie couldn't even be screened, which led to quite a few endings where the criminal swaggers out of the bank with $5 million in untraceable money and walks under a bus. You see, otherwise people might commit crime. These days we have plenty of movies that glorify criminals (and their tuned drag cars) while downplaying the consequences and crime rates have never been lower.

Of course it's easier to hang yourself than to rob a bank with an armada of Mini Coopers. But if you commit suicide expecting a video game character to be waiting for you to help you punish your bullies, then you have serious problems and you were going to commit suicide anyway. Or instead of asking Kalista for revenge, you just might take your dad's gun and do it yourself.

Besides, in the actual game, Kalista kills you and then yoinks you out of the fight to catapult you into Nasus' face against your will and he eats your soul and leaves a few morsels for Thresh to torment for all eternity. If all you take home from any of this is "I want to be Kalista's bitch" then you are getting the wrong message.

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20142 votes

So the story doesn't portray suicide as despicable? So what?

It portrays it as a potentially ennobling alternative to living. You don't see a problem with that?

Acolyte of SteelNov 23, 20147 votes

Lend me your ear for a second, Agent Hulk.

I've attempted suicide three times. I'm still depressed. I still think about just ending my life every day.

...And I'm not the slightest bit offended nor encouraged by Kalista. Because of this lens I live in, I'm able to put *exactly *what Kalista offers in perspective. Believe me, I would love to exact vengence on my abusive father; but Kalista doesn't work like that.

Her gig** isn't,** "Kill yourself and let me hurt some people for you." It is, "Have you been betrayed severely? Then offer me your soul, that we may punish them together - you, and I. Then we may help others with our combined strength..." Notice in Kalista's new short that she says, "we." Not "I," or "me." Kalista and the souls of the betrayed are together forever after that. It's not really "suicide" as we know it. Also notice, an example of a betrayed soul was one murdered over pocket change. Not really a suicide... The reason why it seems like a suicide is because of how her powers translate onto the Rift: we have to die first in order to use her powers because we're on the Rift, not getting murdered in the streets, but in the end it's still just a soulbond - not disappearing into nothingness. You misunderstand the concept of un-death. Suicide doesn't have the same connotation in Runeterra when un-death is involved.

...Tbh making such a big deal out of Kalista is even more offensive than the girl herself. People act like the depressed have absolutely no control these days. We may be miserable, but you do realize that treating us like fragile, delicate, mindlessly-miserable babies doesn't fucking help at all, right? It just makes it all worse; infinitely worse! If you REALLY wanna do something to help, then why don't you go do something about the nature of our **abominable society **instead of bitching about a video game character on the internet, you hypocrite! item 3098

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20143 votes

It absolutely is suicide in Ant in Oz's lore post, and I stand by my statement that ennobling suicide is absolutely not appropriate for a fantastical video game.

It was not my intent to treat you like a fragile, delicate, mindlessly-miserable baby, and I don't think I did, but I apologize if it came across that way. If I did, could you please point out how, so that I can better interact in the future? Everyone has preconceived ways of looking at the world and I'd like to overcome those I hold that are bad.

I am absolutely not a hypocrite. Trying to effect change in a video game is not incompatible with trying to effect change in society, and besides, you know nothing about what I am doing in society as a whole or about my loved one who struggles with PTSD and attempted suicide themself a few times. "X is worse so we can't talk about Y" is not a valid argument.

Damorion215Nov 25, 20142 votes

Well said.

AlëkNov 23, 20143 votes

IKR. One of my posts got deleted for posting a meme on some random ragers thread. He pretty much insulted everyone because we sucked or something like that. ( it was a while back so i don't really remember. something generic) I responded and next thing I know my post was deleted for insulting him? I didn't say ANYTHING. I posted a meme that said "damn that nigga salty" LOL.

Orga ItsukaNov 25, 20143 votes

yeah i just wanted to say that when the new leaver buster system board came out i said some stuff about what the "rioter" lyte had said tho the community, i didnt curse or use racial slurs or anything, and i even got some up votes, that was yesterday, i check today and my post had been deleted.. kinda ridiculous that these guys censor just about anything that goes against them.

AlexanderNov 25, 20143 votes

riots writers are imbeciles

more at 11

SydelleNov 26, 20143 votes

Ant is correct in saying that she's not malicious. Malice is the intent to do harm. Kalista doesn't bear any malice towards anyone. The person who gives their soul to Kalista, however, does have malice and Kalista just does the dirty work. And in the lore, it is the sword-wife that sees Kalista as noble, not Riot Inc. Kalista was a noble warrior in the past. Whether she is still noble or not, that is up to one's own perspective. Plus, there is no indication that the ending of the lore there was happy or not.

But seriously. I've read the lore. You're just making shit up because you really have nothing else better to do in life than get upset over imaginary problems.

@Damorion's previous to last post:

Doing harm is all Kalista does. First thing she does to the sword-wife is give her a spear to kill herself. After that, she's going to go what she spends eternity doing: killing mortal people (not even eternal beings of her own kind, cowardly snake). Apparently, it's her that doesn't have anything better to do. You just called her actions "dirty work," Damor, which implies my message is settling in a non-frontal-cortex part of your brain. And thank God for that.

No, Ant is not correct to say she's not malicious because she required the sword-wife to kill herself and pledge her soul for eternity in order to help her. Noble beings don't ask for your soul anymore than Riot asks a player for their password. [Matthew 7:16]

I think it can easily be understood as a happy ending by the majority of readers because the sword-wife describes Kalista as noble and how she's goin to spend forever together with this "noble warrior."

I'm not making stuff up because I gave you a link to the story. Instead, there you are saying "Kalista doesn't bear any malice towards anyone." Now THAT is making stuff up. Also, I'm no longer upset because I'm being able to have a quality discussion with some of the posters here.

About "Imaginary problems" -- did you read the part where you can't imagine a NOBLE father who rapes his daughter for his own pleasure? What's wrong on Earth is also wrong in imagination. Good and evil are absolute values. So, indeed, I'm talking about Ant's "imaginary problem": you can't "Imagine" that a bad thing (a devil's pact) is "good" in an imaginary world without ALSO thinking that it's good if the exact same thing happened on Earth. Requiring a soul as payment is malicious in Earth and in all worlds: real or imagined.

YawnliNov 23, 20142 votes

but the boards are so much better than gd!

OwntrolfNov 25, 20147 votes

but the boards are so much better than gd!

I cant even read comments this is all I see and I cant post new threads http://puu.sh/d4pdB/efa667215f.png The only way to view whatever people even say is to view quotes

SydelleNov 25, 20143 votes

but the boards are so much better than gd!

I cant even read comments this is all I see and I cant post new threads http://puu.sh/d4pdB/efa667215f.png The only way to view whatever people even say is to view quotes

Fixed now.

HawkefireNov 23, 20142 votes

I personally disagree quite strongly with your assessment of Kalista's backstory.

However, that being said, I do understand how you might have come up with that viewpoint.

But in order to truly understand your viewpoint I must present you a hypothetical example:

A general with his men number to about 1000 soldiers faces an insurmountable foe. The general knows that he cannot defeat his foe, but he also knows that no one will escape the battle unless someone takes the stand to defend the retreating soldiers.

The general volunteers himself, and 100 soldiers also volunteer to aid him in the defense. They make a mighty last stand, defending those that fled the battle, but were cut down to the man (not a single one survived). Each man KNEW that he was going to die there, they knew that it was literally suicide to face an enemy as powerful and as numerous as the one that they faced, yet they still did it.

Now then, do you truly consider that suicide? Or do you consider that sacrifice? Or do you consider sacrifice and suicide to be the same? Do you find fault in what the general and his men (all volunteers mind you) did?

I personally find no fault in what they did (in fact, in such an example I would consider them to be HEROES), so I am very interested to hear your viewpoint of it.

SydelleNov 24, 20145 votes

I personally disagree quite strongly with your assessment of Kalista's backstory.

However, that being said, I do understand how you might have come up with that viewpoint.

But in order to truly understand your viewpoint I must present you a hypothetical example:

A general with his men number to about 1000 soldiers faces an insurmountable foe. The general knows that he cannot defeat his foe, but he also knows that no one will escape the battle unless someone takes the stand to defend the retreating soldiers.

The general volunteers himself, and 100 soldiers also volunteer to aid him in the defense. They make a mighty last stand, defending those that fled the battle, but were cut down to the man (not a single one survived). Each man KNEW that he was going to die there, they knew that it was literally suicide to face an enemy as powerful and as numerous as the one that they faced, yet they still did it.

Now then, do you truly consider that suicide? Or do you consider that sacrifice? Or do you consider sacrifice and suicide to be the same? Do you find fault in what the general and his men (all volunteers mind you) did?

I personally find no fault in what they did (in fact, in such an example I would consider them to be HEROES), so I am very interested to hear your viewpoint of it.

Those men sacrificed their LIVES so that the others might LIVE.

The swords-wife gave up her SOUL so that another might DIE.

Do you not notice a crucial difference? Maybe two?

Why are we NOT prepared?

-.-

Damorion215Nov 24, 20142 votes

I can't help but laugh at this.

First off, LoL isn't really a teenage mass. It's mostly comprised of young adults. There is a small percentage of teens, I would believe, that play LoL. Don't be mistake the ESRB rating for the entirety of how old the community is.

Second, even though Riot is a corporate asshole to a fair extent, I don't think it was ever their intent to promote suicide in any form or fashion. Kalista is hardly promotes suicide. Hell, you even see that guy that gets killed in the "Pledge" video offer his soul to Kalista for revenge on his murderer. Plus, Kalista is hardly a demon. She's more of a ghostly spirit that was killed and revived in the Shadow Isles.

I'm sorry, but you are one of those overly too religious people that goes off the deep end on things that aren't even a problem to begin with. I assume you also think things like "all of heavy metal music is of the devil", don't ya? You need to take a chill pill. You need to realize that in the end, if the parents have raised a kid right, then that kid is going to know that suicide is wrong and it shouldn't be done. However, things can happen sometimes. I mean, they know it's just a story and it's not like Kalista (or Riot) is saying, "Hey! If you kill yourself, you can take revenge on your betrayer/enemy!" This is just a story meant for entertainment purposes.

So again, take a chill pill and try not to go off on a silly rant again.

God Bless.

DaenNov 24, 20142 votes

First off, LoL isn't really a teenage mass. It's mostly comprised of young adults. There is a small percentage of teens, I would believe, that play LoL. Don't be mistake the ESRB rating for the entirety of how old the community is.

Just to add to this, I think the average age of League of Legends players is something like 18; right around the high school/college transition. 18 is technically teenage, but generally people start getting more reasonable and logical around the point where they are planning for their futures.

SydelleNov 26, 20142 votes

Since you are projecting your own age as everyone else's age (a common online mistake) it beats where you are getting your information from.

A common online mistake is getting your information from a poll that has to be said true of the entire community of LoL. Maybe you should ask Riot to do an age poll.

Statistically speaking, 60 poll voters is better than 1. O.o Riot probably already has data on the age distribution of their clients. They should release it.

Just read the lore since you admit further down your message you haven't read it: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/UTTHinkA-short-stories-kalista-invocation

I've read the lore. I see no problem. Neither me nor Riot are condoning the actions of the sword-wife. It's just a part of the story. Whether you think it's right or wrong, that's up to you. But that doesn't mean you need to go on some pointless rant that blows everything out of proportion.

I read it and I thought it was wrong and I didn't bother anyone about it. Till Ant came to the Boards to tell a few thousand kids that Kalista is "not malicious." Instantly, one understands that Ant sees Kalista in the same way that the sword-wife sees Kalista: "noble." Those are Ant's words in that story. The sword-wife sees Kalista as Ant sees Kalista. If Ant were describing a delusional character, he wouldn't say in a real life Q&A that Kalista is not malicious.

It's lore. It's a story. That piece of lore (I have read) doesn't glorify suicide and satanic pacts as much as you think it does. If you think every person that read the lore thinks, "Boy, suicide and satanic pacts are cool! I'm gonna go do those things!", then you obviously are doing drugs or something.

There's a lot of posters in this thread that are completely confused as to whether the sword-wife committed suicide or sacrifice. That alone proves that the story DID successfully glorify suicide and a satanic pacts. Suicide is never a sacrifice. The person does it for themselves. Heroism is a sacrifice. Heroes die for others to live.

ClueClownNov 23, 20141 votes

I can understand Riot being touchy on the subject with the number of death threats and suicide suggestions players tend to get in games. It's something not to be taken lightly, so they might be worried. Also, with the whole news article on girls attempting to kill people because of their favorite Slender Man creepy pasta, ect, it'd be best to avoid a news article titled "Bullied child commits suicide in pact with fictional character Kalista to exact revenge on schoolmates."

I know it's tough to thing about long term lasting effects, but it's in Riot's best interest to ensure the safety of their players. On top of that, there's a lot of misunderstandings that come along with non-face-to-face communication, so even if you tried to come across one way, it can easily be taken in a whole different way.

A lot of this may sound silly, but it's truly not as far fetched as you may think. I think you hold a noble cause in what you say, but again, what you said may not have come across with the same meaning to others. I lost my best friend to depression and bullying, and I'd do anything to prevent it happening to others as well. I think you hold some right in thinking the lore is wrong, and in this instance I can somewhat agree. I'd prefer the lore works along the lines of how her video played out. The man was already dead and with his dying breath he offered his soul. That plays into the more magical aspect of the shadow isles and its affiliation with souls and death, removing any ties to committing suicide.

Kalista is still a noble being. She doesn't ask people hurt themselves, she seeks only to join with a soul's desire to seek vengeance.

SecretAgentHulkNov 23, 20144 votes

Kalista is still a noble being. She doesn't ask people hurt themselves, she seeks only to join with a soul's desire to seek vengeance.

No, she only gives them a spear and tells them if they plunge it through their heart she will help them.

SydelleNov 24, 20145 votes

Kalista is still a noble being. She doesn't ask people hurt themselves, she seeks only to join with a soul's desire to seek vengeance.

No, she only gives them a spear and tells them if they plunge it through their heart she will help them.

You are right there, Hulk.

You know, somehow.... the implicit message in all this seems to be: "There are no powerful entities that will take care of murderers and wrong-doers without requiring your soul for it, so you might as well pledge your soul to Kalista." That's hogwash. What about Kayle and her entire race of beings of which there is only one of them in the League? There's angels that go about kicking ass without demanding payment, much less, your soul.

You're like the person that takes a loan from a loan shark and calls him "noble," except much worse, because this is about your soul, not money.

Angelic beings are noble. If anyone asks for your soul as payment, that is a demon. By accepting into your brain that such an entity could be "noble," you are just being manipulated into picking what side you want to be on when the Final War ensues. I'm of the opinion demons will outnumber angels by a lot, but by that time, every angel will already have had ample practice tanking and taking down legions on their own.