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A simple, but long, explanation from the community point of view

Sir ArmaMalum··9 votes·2,036 views

RiotZwill, d'Artagen, Dillion, WookieCookie, and Keyru....

Currently you guys are putting yourselves out there to gauge feedback and opinions of the Boards community to changes you have planned. From the few back and forths that have happened in these discussions I can garner two things: a lot of people from the community have varied but generally similar reactions to these changes and you all are adamant to these changes (less, bigger boards with tagging/filtering) in some form.

Neither of which are an inherently bad thing. However, from the responses in threads such as Silverling's I have to say you all are at a massive disadvantage. Simply, it is obvious that you guys do not use the Boards as often as a lot of community here. Now I don't mean that as a way to discredit you, I don't expect you to have the time to do your job and lurk here as often as certain people here. But I do want to you guys to realize that you do not know how areas of the Boards work here (as far as the people in them are concerned), and you must make the effort to realize when you visit here with a professional, analytical eye you are actively choosing to look at the League Virtual Community like the tip of an iceberg. You only see the immediately apparent stuff as opposed to the full spectrum.

Some examples based on previous decisions:

######Yes, I realize that some of you were not a part of these decisions, but it is still something that affects the community even now.

  • The Boards Migration. It was promised that those at vBulletin would be allowed a slow and easy switch over and that the closing of vBulletin would only come when traffic numbers suggested that the Boards Beta >> vBulletin. Naturally I don't have access to the exact numbers, but what I can tell you is that even if the traffic was up in the Boards there were very very few recurring events, well-known posters or any community at all in the Boards. There was very little reason to come to the Boards over vBulletin except for format preference. However, the migration happened anyway and tore apart a lot of the community aspects that was there because a) the time given from announcement to closing was pitifully short and b) members on both sides (Boards, vBulletin) agreed the Boards were not ready when it happened, myself included. Hell, by the 'Beta' tag still being there it seems like you guys agree too.

  • General Discussion and GD. When the Boards migration happened GD got their own board, however it was named 'GD' and not 'General Discussion'. A lot of people called for a name change. And it started politely. Simple requests of "hey can we change the name" towards Tamat and others. That quickly changed when such a simple request was met with a surprising amount of resistance. Combined with the previously mentioned forced migration emotions naturally rose very fast.

  • Skin & Champion Concepts. I have been pretty consistently vocal about this, but it's truly becoming a problem now. Skins concepts and champion concepts should not be paired together. They're both concepts sure but the similarity stops there. Take a look at that board sometime and tell me how many skin concepts there are to champion concepts. I'll tell you right now there are barely any champion concepts but plenty of one-line skin ideas. Yes, they are both concepts in a broad sense. But it's a very clear example of a decision that massively effects the CC community being made by someone who did not understand the difference between a skin concept and a champion concept. An understandable mix-up but an unacceptable execution.


What these examples have in common is that they are all decisions made with an easily recognizable intent and an obvious misunderstanding of the community they are affecting. Similar to a politician making sweeping decisions for areas he/shes's not familiar with. "Let's tear down this park and build a strip mall to help the area's economy" kinda stuff. Now again, I don't expect you guys to make all the right decisions or know exactly what to do in every place but I want to explain what we see.

What we see on our end is:

  1. A Board Beta with no visible improvements or changes for almost half a year (very recent header bar change notwithstanding). Even simple formatting requests (full width divider, reactivation of different header sizes, both of which are innately part of Markdown btw) have not happened. Which gives a huge feeling of stagnation. If a lot of under the hood stuff is being done that's fine! However we don't know about them so as far as we're concerned nothing has been happening.

  2. Lack of communication. Granted recently (as far as Boards talk) has been comparatively good......or, not bad at least.... and I appreciate that. The responses aren't all peaches and plums sure, but communication is happening and I want to thank you all for the effort at the very least. However since very little red-talk happens here....well you've been over that time and again. From our end, though, it's yet another reason not to come here.

  3. Massive regret from previous decisions. i.e. Migration. There will always be a "it was better back then" crowd with any decisions. However I have yet to find a single person who isn't brand new here that thought the migration was a good idea what with how it was handled. Among other decisions made here. I think the last somewhat agreed with change was the visual change from burning white to too dark, a year ago.


I suggested this earlier in a specific response but I wanted to make it very clear here. What I want you guys to take away from this is to take a stroll through the communities here. And NOT JUST THE ONES YOU CAN IMMEDIATELY SEE. As you are probably aware you can't just stop by for a few minutes and say you know a group of people. Did you know what the MCCC is in champion concepts? How about an 'ok' thread, what's that? What's one of the many recurring jokes GD throws around? Name a relatively popular poster from each major board. Give me one example of a huge community project outside of the Boards. What time is RvC? Which Rioter worked on FEK before being hired? Which Rioters were well-known on vBulletin/Boards before being hired?

Can't answer these questions? Then find a rioter who can! Ask around! Many rioters were active members of huge communities back in vBulletin. Ask them about funny moments, scary moments, hear stories about what happened here and how the community responded. There are plenty I can assure you.

#Use what you find out to refine your approach and better identify areas that can and did have thriving communities and what you can do re-capture that.

Until you do that no matter how well-intended your decisions are they are going to feel very disconnected and more than likely plow over areas that were liked while preserving areas that weren't. Currently, from our point of view, we want parks when you want strip malls.

15 Comments

TeemoJenkins1 votes

Response from the community: I think the boards are fine.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

What Boards to you frequent and is there really no improvement you can immediately think of to make you experience better?

Daen1 votes

Solid thread. One thing in particular, using GD as an example, that's frustrating to me is the fact that there's so much push from Riot to destroy that community and yet Rioters specifically comment on the fact they don't visit GD. If you don't visit GD, why do you feel confident in your decision to remove it?

I'm not even particularly attached to GD, but the logic here is just ridiculous. Your politician analogy, Arma, is perfect in this scenario; a senator that knows nothing about environmental science should not be influencing policy regarding the environment. It seems like Riot isn't really considering the usage cases for the platform (even pretty common ones like which boards a user might prefer to view) when making decisions, and even though communication is better it's still a far cry from useful.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

One thing I do want to make clear is that, imho, "Riot isn't really considering" and similar phrases are a bit of a trap. Personally I don't feel the pertinent Rioters are actively 'not considering' or 'ignoring' these communities, but more of simply not being aware or fully understand them. And I honestly don't expect them to at the levels a lot of the community is at.

Sticking with the park/strip mall analogy, the strip mall itself isn't inherently bad, but the fact it's going over a park is. It's not that the primary drive behind the decision (this area needs a strip mall) is bad by nature, but more of that the lack of understanding the area leads to poor if not careless execution. Very much like a lot of recent decisions.

Daen1 votes

"Riot isn't really considering" and similar phrases are a bit of a trap. Personally I don't feel the pertinent Rioters are actively 'not considering' or 'ignoring' these communities, but more of simply not being aware or fully understand them.

Lack of consideration doesn't have to be active, the term extends to passive or subconscious thought as well. I don't think Riot is ignoring their communities, necessarily, but it seems that they are basing their understanding off superficial information and not really delving into the nuance.

Sticking with the park/strip mall analogy, the strip mall itself isn't inherently bad, but the fact it's going over a park is. It's not that the primary drive behind the decision (this area needs a strip mall) is bad by nature, but more of that the lack of understanding the area leads to poor if not careless execution. Very much like a lot of recent decisions.

Yep.

Baron of Bread1 votes

However I have yet to find a single person who isn't brand new here that thought the migration was a good idea what with how it was handled.

You found one right here.

Daen2 votes

Which aspects do you feel were handled well with the transition, and do you feel there were any issues with it?

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

^^ this

Baron of Bread1 votes

I think there were things that could have been done better.

I agree there could have been more time for the transition, but I don't think additional time was necessary. As for forcing it before the traffic evened it out, I think that had to happen. Anyone neutrally inclined towards formats, or who preferred the old format, would be unlikely to switch over until there was more stuff on the Boards than there was on the Forums and that wouldn't happen until more people moved over. Ultimately, that sets up a situation where the Boards is never up to the level of traffic as the Forums. As such, forcing the change would be required before the traffic evens out because the traffic would likely never even out or it would just take ages.

I think that the change should have waited until the Boards were at least out of beta. I can understand trying to increase the traffic on it to get more bugs out, but they probably should have at least made it non-beta before making it the official League Boards.

The difference between GD and General Discussion is small enough that that change should not have bothered anyone.

I feel like there is plenty of Riot communication when it is needed on the Boards and it is easy to find it with the Red Tracker. I couldn't find a similar feature on the old forums.

For me it ultimately comes down to the format change. I just hated the format of the forums, and I like the format on the boards. The old format made me not very active on the Forums and because I like the Boards format I am active here. That likely colors my view of the whole transition a bit.

The transition itself was fine for me. Nothing seemed bad about it at the time so I considered it as well handled, but once I saw how much some people disliked the change I though there were some things that could have been better. All in all though, I still think it was a fine decision and was pulled off effectively.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Understandable analysis overall, but speculative. Granted it's all speculative so moot point really. I completely agree a transition would have needed to be forced eventually. However there are a few detriments to the transition that did not meet expectations of many, myself included.

The time given was nowhere near many people's interpretation of what was said by the Boards team. Tamat gave a warning of a few days, where as what was promised near the beginning of the Boards beta (then community platform, ah.... good times) was spun as somethign along the lines of weeks. I will completely admit a precise period of time was not confirmed, nor could one realistically be made then, but it was pointed out numerous times that there were long standing recurring events and community activities (such as RvC, Factions, and the MCCC as examples) that would need at the very least a week or two to prepare for a forced transition.

The GD/General Discussion thing was not a big deal by itself. In fact, most of the more vocal GD'rs in the CP chatroom and on the Boards would agree with that as well. What made it a big deal was the proximity to the migration and a surprising reluctance from the Riot side to change it (as you said, it wasn't a huge deal and downright menial honestly). This was mostly from Tamat, but to be fair he was also the only one actually speaking on the issue. Tamat, unfortunately, already had a reputation among GD for being dismissive and incredibly disconnected. So yes there was animosity from both sides which also contributed, but the reason I brought it up was another easy example of a decision being made by someone who does not understand how it would affect the people it impacted. The reaction to the response is also another example as it is proof of a disconnect between the community of GD and the Reds who were in charge of the decision (i.e. Tamat). Now, obviously some spectrum of disconnect is inevitable with this business, but it's the fact that Tamat was adamant that he knew the GD community enough to stick with the decision that I bring that bit of drama up. I myself am not a GD'r so I also think the entire thing was blown way out of proportion, but at the same time the fact that it was so exaggerated is something to note.

Now, all that being said, I am also of the same mind as you. I even now prefer Boards over what vBulletin used to be. Above all I hated the 'recently replied' sorting you were locked to. (And I still don't like it as an option here either, but I'm not forced to use it so meh.) It rewarded the most 'active' threads and as such promoted the posts that got the most people angry. Granted I also admit vote based sorting has it's own myriad of problems but I personally believe they are lesser. I also enjoy discussion mode more than chrono among other things such as the Red Tracker (which was also available in vBulletin by the way, but a little out of the way).

As such I believe you found the transition perfectly fine because, for you, there was no transition. The end result was your preference, as it was mine. So as an individual you were not impacted in the least. So going with that, I would like to ask you a question: do you feel the general mood of the Boards was better before of after the transition?

I ask this because my focus is on the community as a whole and it's health. My point of view at the moment is that it is not doing well at all from a variety of observations I can go into if you'd like, but in a broad sweeping stroke I'd say there was a much healthier community before the migration and it steadily declined since then, even while traffic increased.

Baron of Bread1 votes

As far as the general mood goes, I don't think it got better or worse. I would like to hear why you think the community is less healthy though.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

To be fair, which Boards you frequent has a huge impact on overall experience. My personal haunts are Boards Feedback, Skins and Champion Concepts, Miscellaneous, G&B, Help & Support and Memes and Games.

Besides G&B and mostly Help & Support, these boards would be ones with a community growing in them. Concepts being a prime example. Ideally, the migration would be slow and drawn out, allowing communities from vBulletin to either transfer over or die peaceful, quiet deaths to be reincarnated over here in another form. Unfortunately, in a (understandable) desire to proof-of-concept the Boards layout the Boards sorting (which depended on higher traffic to reach Reddit levels of success) the switch was made and was made suddenly.

What wasn't considered is the fact that vBulletin had established communities, events and everything in between from the years people have put into it. Not just GD, but the concepts sub-forum, the art sub-forum, the RP sub-forum even the forum games sub-forum all had regular visitors and structure. We were starting to get that in the Boards underneath all the Beta changes. I ran a champion content contest, people were starting games here and reds even came and chipped in (see Baconhawk's PotD). It was slow going sure, but we had something going. Then the migration happened and you had a larger, angrier community suddenly thrust against a smaller, content community. The former had a majority of people leave because of the change alone and the former had a lot leave due to the constant bitching the migration created. The result being a lot of people with very little reason to be here other than the very occasional post.

I guess the easiest way of me putting it is that I saw a community developing here on the Boards, and I saw one already there in vBulletin. Here now, I see none of that. I'll completely admit it could just be me. Honestly I'm tired. Both from personal issues and from the attrition of bad moods I get from here. You can even look at my post history and see my individual decline. I used to enjoy coming here not just for the posts themselves but also for the people I regularly saw. Now, however, I find less and less motivation to put events, post series, PSA's, or just normal posts because, quite simply, I see no community. I see no cohesion. I just see a bunch of individuals in a mosh-pit style shouting match doing everything they can to get more attention than the next guy. Now is that just because of the Boards migration? I don't think so. But it at the very least catalyzed the process.

Daen1 votes

I agree there could have been more time for the transition, but I don't think additional time was necessary. As for forcing it before the traffic evened it out, I think that had to happen.

There were two big issues with the transition, the most significant of which was actually right after the transition happened:

  • Broken Promises - Riot was very adamant about only forcing the move when it was the clearly superior choice, and specifically mentioned numerous times that there would be ample warning and time to prepare. Riot failed abysmally on both counts, because they gave users only a few days to transition and the platform was very clearly not ready yet (chronological view wasn't even functional at the time).
  • Ridiculous Moderation - On the first day of the transition, Riot literally told the community that if they stepped out of line there would be mass bans. The transition forced players to go from having no moderation for years to extremely harsh moderation in the span of like an hour.

I agree with you on the fact that without the transition traffic might not have gotten to the point of usefulness, but the problems I mentioned above are a lot more serious than migrating traffic.

I think that the change should have waited until the Boards were at least out of beta. I can understand trying to increase the traffic on it to get more bugs out, but they probably should have at least made it non-beta before making it the official League Boards

From my perspective, this is the main issue people had with the transition. This was certainly my biggest gripe, and for all intents and purposes the platform isstill in beta. There are very few situations where it's a good decision to force users onto a beta product with no alternative, and I don't feel like this was one of them.

The difference between GD and General Discussion is small enough that that change should not have bothered anyone.

This was more based on principle and identity than the actual name itself. The General Discussion community wanted to keep their original name and thus their original identity, but there was a relatively insane amount of push-back from Riot. It took about six months of the community constantly asking for it for Riot to finally (begrudgingly) change the name of the board, and the fact it took that long for such a simple request did not make people particularly happy with Riot.

Historically, on the Boards, Riot has been extremely reluctant to bother with GD, so it got a lot of people frustrated. Every time there's a change the entire GD community basically has to fight tooth and nail just to survive, and it gets aggravating having to do that over and over.

I feel like there is plenty of Riot communication when it is needed on the Boards and it is easy to find it with the Red Tracker. I couldn't find a similar feature on the old forums.

I agree, though I believe there was indeed a red tracker on the old forums. Maybe I'm wrong. Overall though I do prefer the Boards platform to vBulletin, but Riot just handled so much about it so poorly.

Overall I agree with Arma in that it seems you were already situated on the Boards so the transition wasn't particularly jarring. For those that weren't already using the platform, however, and for those of us (like Arma and myself) that spend ridiculous amounts of time analyzing the community, it was like a massive slap in the face to almost the entire forum community.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

What Daen asked. It's all well for you to claim a stance, as is your right, however I would very much like to know the specific points that has your opinion differ from mine. Makes for interesting and educational debates.

Baron of Bread1 votes

The main reason I didn't add my reasoning is it is mostly opinion based, which ultimately leads to us just agreeing to disagree (or getting angry, but I doubt you are the type to go that way). Anyway, I responded to Daen and you can see most of my thinking there.

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