Show threads in flat(vBulletin) mode

ploki122·Oct 22, 2013·15 votes·4,715 views

Hello everyone, Basically, I'm creating this thread as the solver of Kryhlos' hints. In short, he announced that there was a "easter egg" that allowed you to view the posts flat-styled like in the old forum. Also, this filters them chronologically, making it very easy for RPs and such.

How to do it is pretty simple. In the address bar, you simply, in most cases, add ?show=flat. However, if you followed a permalink or many other ways (basically, if there is already a ?), you have to append &show=flat. In the case that you came from clicking on new, it'll change your show_mode to "new", meaning that in the url, at the end there will be a "{?/&}show=new", just replace "new" for flat.

Onto the real topic. What do you guy sthink about the flat mode?

EDIT : Props to Kira Onime for the initial post.

EDIT 2: In that fashion, this thread would look like :
[[http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/c/beta-feedback/hxXvaHBd-show-threads-in-flatvbulletin-mode?show=flat]](http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/c/beta-feedback/hxXvaHBd-show-threads-in-flatvbulletin-mode?show=flat)

EDIT 3: Apparently, you can't choose sort order flag with the show flag anymore.

N.B. sorry for messy markdown, but that cluster of parenthesis/brackets isn't appreciated by their parser.

53 Comments

RiotKrylhosOct 23, 20136 votes

Hey guys,

I wanted to clarify that this is not a supported feature at this time. This hidden piece of functionality is available to provide an easy way to have a point of reference when comparing nested score-sorted to flat created-ascending-sorted conversations.

While I appreciate feedback and suggestions on this discovery, I give no guarantees that we will put development focus on the "flat" view.

Thanks!

Kira OnimeOct 23, 20137 votes

Friendly advice,..... you should.

TheVoiceofExileOct 23, 20132 votes

Or Kira will get you right? lolol

Kira OnimeOct 23, 201310 votes

I'm serious.

With all the heat this platform has been getting of "it looks like reddit and I prefer a message board layout", not trying to pursue a flat layout format is kinda ridiculous.

It's one of the main complaints ...... why not try to appease it?

ploki122Oct 23, 20134 votes

Mainly because a lot of that negative feedback is false negative. What the ydont, like isnt, the indented-style, but the cahnge in itself.

I believe that pursuing such impulsive feedback (aka first few weeks) is pretty dumb (the same way that you don't nerf a champion because peopel call it op in the first 2 hours of release, only after saying for 1 month that a refreshing 600 true damage is stupid)

Kira OnimeOct 23, 20134 votes

I know but look at the flat mode currently. All it could use is some css display changes, a compressed parent post, should a parent post be present in the DB and, IMO, I'd say it would be ready to go.

And I also believe in giving the user as many options as possible as long as said options are relevant.

I also understand the hole point of people hating change, I've had that discussion may times before on previous subjects in other games. But the thing is, from my point of view, is that having a platform where Riot gets to play as much as they want in it with ease, where users can choose how said platofmr looks to them and with this, you keep that many more users on your platofrm..... I just see it as a win all around.

ploki122Oct 23, 20132 votes

While having as many display style as possible is neat, I do believe that having 1 excellent default style is a must.

That's where the main point of contention is. Basically, some wants as many features as possible, others want as many core elements as possible.

Right now, Riot is leaning toward the latter, where they will make the Reddit-styled community as usable as possible, and then roam around, developping features (JSON, flat-style, filters, etc.).

Is it a good idea? yes. Is developping features first a good idea? yes. Which one is the best? hmmm... yes? One has the advantage of attracting a lot of people at first (features), the otehr has the possibility of expanding it more easily/seamlessly (every core features you add, you do it once, instead of doing it once and testing in 3+ different environments).

To make a parallel, it's like releasing champions. You always choose whether you want to err on the OP side, or the UP side. OP side (features) has the advantage of attracting people to it. However, the downside is that sometimes, the champion needs a rework to keep it's identity while reducing power (see Zyra, or Eve's rework). If you go for the UP side (develop 1 thing first, then features), it's much easier to tweak, since you can just add power in its featured mechanics. However, a lot of people will get a huge letdown and never touch it again (see Poppy, she's still viable, although a bit clunky, and the last time she got nerfed is like... maybe 2012).

Of course, the optimal point is to release it balanced, but that's one hard to strike balance (JSON requires a low amount of work to sustain, so that could be a yes. Flat-style is a lot harder, since it requires everything to be re-done most of the time. New sorting option is somewhere in-between).

TL;DR : Nerf Irelia(Flat-style isn't sustainable during development, I do believe they could make it a tad bit cleaner tho, and leave it as an unsupported feature).

OpasonofpopaOct 27, 20131 votes

You just said why vBulletin is the superior style yourself: Riot wants this to be a great way of interacting with their community. If as you say they pick your route and then improve later many potential users will never come back even if they made the changes they would have wanted. You said this yourself!

"However, a lot of people will get a huge letdown and never touch it again"

Now, if Riot wants to communicate with their player base what is the logic behind a decision that will decrease the amount of players they communicate with. This will just lead to less feedback and a smaller sample pool when gathering data from the forums. Also why would they want to have less people interacting with them anyways. This means less ideas and less content on the forums.

I find a slower pace of development/adding features a very small price to pay compared to all that.

SlumlordThanatosOct 24, 20134 votes

I disagree.

You see, it's the scale of the feedback that is important. I'm sure Riot realizes that there will be knee-jerk reactions for the first few days, but if enough people say the exact same thing, it doesn't matter if it just came out.

The "If this Reddit style goes live, I'm done" post still has the most upvotes of any thread on the Community site, and it has been that way since day 1. That tells me that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

ploki122Oct 24, 20131 votes

It has the most upvotes, but like I said, changes gives a big one-time reation... The fact that hate threads doesn't even get nearly as much upvotes nowadays shows something imo (an not only the fact that some just never came back, since we're talking about like.. 10 times less upvotes)

RiotKrylhosOct 24, 20133 votes

To be fair - that first day spurred a lot of emotion from the community at whole, and a lot of that sentiment was based off of "knee-jerk" reactions (understandably so!)

In your opinion, do you still feel like we're not listening to your feedback to shape this community experience? How do you think that "If this Reddit style goes live, I'm done" post would pan out if it were to start today?

MackleDogeOct 24, 20131 votes

I would still up vote it and agree, I don't like this style of forum from both aesthetic reasons and I feel it is both clunky and limits the viewing of all of the forum material. All it takes is one person to make some ridiculous post to garner a bunch of upvotes and the forum turns into a popularity contest instead of a source of good, constructive communication and community involvement.

For example, if some schmuck makes a post title "Riot should make skins cost IP" and then goes on to complain about the pricing of skins and a bunch of other things, people are going to up vote it on the premise of wanting free stuff, or lower prices, or just for the sake of "I want this skin but it costs 1350 instead of 975 so I'll up vote this to stick it to Riot" mentality.

If you all want to implement this style of forum, why not just develop it so that in profile settings a user can pick which forum style they prefer and when they view the forum it's in that format? Would it take some extra effort on Riot's part? Probably yes, but you are already going through all this effort to change the forum (that in my opinion was working fine to begin with) into something else that a lot of people have been vocal about not enjoying.

Again, this is all my personal opinion and is to be taken with a grain of salt. I still enjoy League of Legends and I rather enjoy the community, so in the end whether or not you implement this style of forum won't stop me from playing the game, but I will be less likely to view and participate in the forum.

SlumlordThanatosOct 24, 20137 votes

In your opinion, do you still feel like we're not listening to your feedback to shape this community experience?

It's gotten better, for sure. Still a few things I feel need to be done, but for the most part, you guys have at least picked up on a lot of our complaints.

That being said...

I wanted to clarify that this is not a supported feature at this time. This hidden piece of functionality is available to provide an easy way to have a point of reference when comparing nested score-sorted to flat created-ascending-sorted conversations.

While I appreciate feedback and suggestions on this discovery, I give no guarantees that we will put development focus on the "flat" view.

I cannot stress this enough. Direct some attention to this. You could solve our biggest complaint while still keeping the layout you guys chose. It's been done already, but attention NEEDS to be drawn to this.

How do you think that "If this Reddit style goes live, I'm done" post would pan out if it were to start today?

The same thing would probably happen.

So far, I've not seen truly drastic changes to the Community site, only the odd usability improvement. It still looks like a fancier Reddit, and that is our loudest complaint.

Give it a few more weeks, and we'll see.

PryotraOct 27, 20131 votes

In your opinion, do you still feel like we're not listening to your feedback to shape this community experience? How do you think that "If this Reddit style goes live, I'm done" post would pan out if it were to start today?

It would likely be more or less the same, not sure if that was a thread I posted in, but I still kinda agree with it.

Sure, you guys are infact listening, but there are a lot of changes/concerns that simply haven't been addressed in one way or another. I get the appeal to reddit style and nested style, it makes the convo really easy to follow if you are the topic starter.

If I jump in to someone elses topic now, I don't really see what is actually being talked about at a glance. Even if I go with the recent search, I still don't actually know where the actual discussion currently is, unless I read every single date.

If you expect site users to do this, you need to rethink your site, as the burden on the user for a site should be pretty low. Best sort only encourages circle jerking, and that seems to be the thing you still have the biggest problem with, judging by this thread. I know more sorts has been suggested, along with better defaults for which search there is. This is simply one example of how I DON'T see progress.

I get that you guys are listening, and I get that you are a 3 man team, but judging by the pbe forums, you guys are rushing this. This site is no where near ready, and you should be prepared to face some pretty huge backlash if this, or anything close to this, is forced on everyone. If this site was mine, there would likely be an alpha tag on it, not a beta one. That should give you an Idea of how far you are.

I realize that you are listening, but here is the thing. In my eyes, Riot has recently lost a lot of faith with their community, between the old LE skins being re-released, the shift of the PBE forums FAR before they were ready, and the pricing changes that directly violate your previous word.

It doesn't matter where you are in the company, right now the company looks bad. And if anyone wants to change it, they need to listen to the thing that everyone seems to have forgotton: Your promise of "awesome". Right now, I'm just not seeing it. Actions speak louder than words. And right now, the actions are telling me "we're doing things our way, deal with it." That's a really good way to lose a good portion of your player base.

I know that you feel like I am dumping the weight of my beef with riot on your head right now, but the fact of the matter is, what I just dropped was lite, and all of it is relevent to my point, in that words alone aren't going to convince people, but rather action. A simple action you could take now, is perusing something that clearly has a following, a feature that people have clearly shown interest in. Not shoving it under the rug because "that wasn't what we had in mind." If you don't want the majority to use it, then hide it as an option in a settings menu, most forums do that anyways.

So if you only remember one thing, remember this:** Your not done here yet, keep listening AND responding with your actions.**

TheVoiceofExileOct 23, 20132 votes

That was a Deathnote joke (manga/anime I read/watched), Kira is one of the main characters with a notebook he can use to do stuff. Wasn't meant in a serious manner. But I'm indifferent on the display matter.

Kira OnimeOct 23, 20131 votes

Sorry, I've just heard that reference so many times for several years that I just don't react much to it anymore lol.

ploki122Oct 23, 20132 votes

but but but...

It honestly would be killer if it only got slightly reworked (also, Roleplay... feel the Roleplay dude)

CozarkianOct 23, 201314 votes

This functionality gives the forum uses the layout we want while still allowing Riot to have the format they want for managing the forum. It's a win-win and should be at the top of the priority list.

ploki122Oct 23, 20136 votes

I prefer indented style for my part...

AuryielOct 24, 20132 votes

Thank you for proving that you do not give a single f*ck about the feedback you receive. Feels nice to have something to point to and say ''But I'm not crazy, they really, really do not care.''

And if you disagree with my statement, prove me otherwise. Actions speak louder than words. ''We care, we care.'' Well then, CARE!

ploki122Oct 24, 20134 votes

So the fact that they do not plan on expanding the flat view right now means that they never listen to the community? makes sense...

What if instead they pushed to get a working single-display platform going so they can move the AMAs away from Reddit?

Kira OnimeOct 24, 20134 votes

How about we get a functional car before we start adding features to it?

It's nice the know the option exists, but I'd much rather see the body and engine working flawlessly before getting electric windows or seat heaters.

GoldoakOct 25, 20132 votes

I'm not sure that analogy is apt. I can actually follow a conversation in flat view, and I can't pull that off in nested. I only flick over to it if I'm linking to a specific comment, probably one I jumped to through the "new posts" view, or from the Red Tracker.

I don't disagree with the goals of a nested view, and cataloging the relationships between posts provides useful information. Frankly, it makes the site flow far better as a conversation than relying on each poster to provide their own quotes for reference, and I really like that each post must have a context.

It just isn't a comfortable way to primarily follow a conversation. There's simply too much info in one place and not enough division between each person talking.

ploki122Oct 25, 20131 votes

oh well, my answer still applies ><

SlumlordThanatosOct 24, 20133 votes

While I appreciate feedback and suggestions on this discovery, I give no guarantees that we will put development focus on the "flat" view.

What Kira said...you reeeeeeealy should.

That being said, this layout is much better and easier for me to read. However; I can't see who is replying to who, and I can't upvote/downvote posts in this view.

But this is a feature you guys really need to pursue and develop. This would make a wonderful bit of middle ground for those who dislike the Reddit layout.

RiotMontagOct 24, 20135 votes

I think there is a middle ground between fully threaded and flat. I hesitate to call it a "middle ground," though, because it shouldn't be some halfway point that attempts to mash both together and compromises both ways of reading. It should be a truly superior experience that delivers relevance -- based on what relevance means to the contributor.

We want to challenge a lot of assumptions about what good discussion means. We want to challenge the assumption that every post is worth reading, or that you have to read every post in a discussion to participate meaningfully, or that volume of comments automatically equals a quality back-and-forth (it often equals knee-jerk controversy), or that a large, amazing community like LoL can't be simultaneously huge and intimate.

Challenging them will be controversial. It'll seem like we're not listening, because lots of you guys will say we're doing it wrong, and we'll go and try things anyway. We are listening, though, because we have to see you guys use it to know if it's working or not, but we don't want to shoot a baby in the crib. We want to see it grow up and then judge it when it's had a chance to mature. We ask that you give these experiments a fair chance, because we feel like there's a place we haven't gotten to yet that's so much better than that "middle ground."

I'm personally interested in how you guys use flat alongside standard threading. Seeing both in action will help us find that whole that's greater than the sum of its parts.

GoldoakOct 25, 20133 votes

I don't disagree there's room for improvement, but if I had my druthers, you'd be working from a flat style and teasing out the special utility of a nested view so you can fit features providing the same functionality to flat instead of the other way around.

GoldoakOct 25, 20133 votes

Oh, and please don't conflate a desire for a flat view with support for traditional "bumping" behavior based on recent posting. I actually quite like the voting system proposed here, I'd benefit from seeing how well rated a post is inside a thread I'm viewing in flat mode, and I've definitely availed myself of all three sorting methods to find threads to read.

HolgranthOct 27, 20131 votes

Buckle down for the long haul then because at this point the vast majority of players including myself think that the official forums are bad and this Reddit style is a hundred times worse.

GoldoakOct 22, 20132 votes

I am intrigued! This is so much more readable. Even in the nested mode, I'd kill for those double line post borders. I still think more emphasis on a post's author (perhaps an underline between their name and avatar the post text itself) would be nice, but this is really enough to sort out all my issues with who's talking at any given point in time.

Now! Improvements!

The "show parent" link serves well to provide context, but I'd love a way to link back to that post directly so I can see more around it, preferably one I can open in a new tab. I'm not entirely sold on the positioning of the preview either. It might just be me yearning for more quote-like behavior, but I'd prefer if the "parent" line could be hosted beneath the author's name of the current post.

On second thought, it might just be the color scheme. The washed out look is hard to read for the parent post and the lack of a dividing line between it and the "child" post is visually confusing.

Moving away from that, the information on display in the header of each post could use some work. The community an topic path doesn't need to be repeated for every post, but I would benefit from more emphasis on the timestamp. I think I'd prefer exact instead of a relative timestamps for this view, and it would be better if they were more separated from author's name, perhaps justified to the right of the post header.

On the most pie in the sky level, I'd love some way to aggregate adjacent posts by the same author into a single one, perhaps broken up with separate "show parent" links.

This might actually prove useful as an entirely separate view option: isolating an important poster in a thread and getting a complete listing of all their comments with their context would be incredibly useful to me. I find myself often searching within a page for a given author, especially when I'm revisiting an archived thread.

Oh, and the Rioter Comments "jump to this post" link seems to be broken in this view.

Kira OnimeOct 22, 20132 votes

SlumlordThanatosOct 25, 20132 votes

In response to Mr T's post:

We wouldn't be here if we disliked the beta, and that thread was created when the interest was really high.

For some reason, I can't reply directly to your post. Might be because I've already replied to Krylhos above.

Anyway, the ONLY reason I'm here is because I dislike the beta and want to help fix it. In fact, I think the only subsection I've posted in so far is the Beta Feedback forums.

Riot is definitely taking steps in the right direction, but the general consensus (to me) is that the Reddit layout still needs to go, or an option for a flat layout implemented. They are listening and addressing a great deal of our gripes, but they still seem to be dancing around our biggest complaint.

Also, it saddens me that they've been quiet on the subject of forum avatars and post signatures.

DaenOct 25, 20131 votes

Anyway, the ONLY reason I'm here is because I dislike the beta and want to help fix it. In fact, I think the only subsection I've posted in so far is the Beta Feedback forums.

Fair point, sorry for generalizing! I was going more for the fact that we wouldn't be here if we hated it to the point of worthlessness, as opposed to constructive criticism.

Riot is definitely taking steps in the right direction, but the general consensus (to me) is that the Reddit layout still needs to go, or an option for a flat layout implemented. They are listening and addressing a great deal of our gripes, but they still seem to be dancing around our biggest complaint.

I think eventually they might end up supporting a flat layout, it's just not cleanly done at the moment so I assume that's why Krylhos has said they aren't supporting it just yet.

Also, it saddens me that they've been quiet on the subject of forum avatars and post signatures.

Technically our ingame items showing here are our avatars. :P

PryotraOct 23, 20131 votes

Trying this out, I prefer flat, unless I am the thread creator, in which I like nested. Why not both?

Take a leaf from the Book of FEK, everything should be togglable, or at least have a setting that can be changed. If someone doesn't want a feature, don't force it on them.

Also, I think sorting would be way better if you could apply oldest, most recent, and other sorts to the flat view. I think it would really help.

ploki122Oct 23, 20131 votes

For your first point, I will simply redirect you to my PoV about that very same topic in another reply.

For the latter, you actually can, there simply isn't an interface for it, jsut replay show=flat, with show=flat&sort_type=recent.

Updated OP to reflect that.

Cheers!

PryotraOct 27, 20131 votes

But why not both? I realize that both have their merits, but at the end of the day, this could easily be added as a drop down next to the sorts, or even in a secondary settinges menu, which IMO they kinda need, as no one wants to resort the comments of every thread only for it to not apply anywhere else or save.

Also, thanks for that! I'll try running around with this and see how I like it. Chances are, I'm going to write a script to add that at the end of every thread link. It wouldn't even be difficult.

GoldoakOct 28, 20131 votes

Please share!

PryotraOct 28, 20131 votes

Just realized, that sort doesn't apply to flat view. So, yeah, that would need to happen if flat view were to be useful here.

ploki122Oct 30, 20131 votes

well, top doesn't apply, but recent/default(aka chronological) does.

PryotraOct 31, 20131 votes

Well, I sorted by recent, and that showed the oldest first. If that is intentional, that sure is confusing. What I meant was the newest comments first, all the way down to the oldest.

ploki122Oct 31, 20131 votes

All I can say is that this doesn't seem to apply anymore... thanks for pointing this out, I edited the OP.

SonsofaBastagesOct 24, 20131 votes

Kind of digging the flat view - shame you can't post in it. Suffers from the same issue as the nested though: way too much unused space over here -->

GoldoakOct 25, 20131 votes

It just isn't a comfortable way to primarily follow a conversation. There's simply too much info in one place and not enough division between each person talking.

Edit: This post was posted from flat view and intended as a response to this this post. I'm going to leave it here to keep demonstrating the problem but I'm reposting this response in the correct place to preserve the nested conversation.

ploki122Oct 25, 20131 votes

I guess you're talking about the champ design analogy?

In any cases, I never said that the indented style was good/better or anything like that, or even that the falt style was unneeded... All I said is they gotta start somewhere, and it'll be easier to develop features first and a 2nd siaply afterward , than do teh opposite.

GoldoakOct 25, 20131 votes

Oh dear. No, I was trying to reply to this post from the flat view. I hadn't realized it would move my discussion out to a first level response in the nested view.

Well, that's something that would be particularly useful to fix.

RysterNov 20, 20131 votes

Sorry, this is kind of a necro, but the best way, I feel, for the people who are accustomed to the flat view is to allow both the flat and layered styles be used in the same thread. This can make both sides of the spectrum happy. This is a quote from someone who does not like the layered look and feels the flat view is a bit off of the mark and gives a suggestion to making the flat view a bit more compact.

[QUOTE]It's a matter of space efficiency and readability.

Compare this http://puu.sh/5nRnH.png which is largely space inefficient and very difficult to follow, to this http://puu.sh/5nRpk.png which is far more space efficient, far easier to follow, and as such, flows better and is more comprehensible without wasting time trying to figure out what you were even discussing in the first place. [/QUOTE]

Thoughts?

ploki122Nov 20, 20131 votes

sadly, since the thread has been up for so long I'm the only one that will see this.

As for the quote, you can try starting each paragraphs with > to make it a proper quote.

As for the content, the fun thing is that both are actually roughly as spaced as the other, except that one looks more spaced

SlumlordThanatosFeb 10, 20141 votes

Just a reminder to everyone that this option still exists, but Riot is still not supporting it.

Does Riot want to give us a truly superior experience? A surefire way to do that is to compromise with us...and yet, here we are, four months later, with nothing done to support this neat little setup.