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[Idea] Player Council (Eve Online Style)

Rathlord··6 votes·1,753 views

Heya guys,

So I recently commented in this blog article about the design principles of the game: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends

The important bit of the article I focused on was this last paragraph:

With our values right here in the open, we can have open conversations about how we approach design in League of Legends. Better still, we can be held accountable when we make changes that aren’t in line. If you have any questions, feel free to leave them in the comments, but stay tuned for in-depth articles from senior League of Legends game designers on each core value. We’ll be updating this post as they go live!

My original comment:

On the note of community involvement and the responsibility of devs to be held accountable in competitive games like LoL, would you guys consider starting something like CCP's council of players that has actual intercourses with the developers on a regular basis, in an organized fashion, to represent the playerbase as a whole and our concerns?

This generated a bit of heat, getting some upvotes and comments from not one, but two rednames:

This from Ghostcrawler

I am personally very passionate about any mechanism that improves player and Rioter communication. While I am familiar with the CSM, I'm not immersed enough in EVE itself to know how players evaluate its success.

This from Morello

I like that overall - thought the logistics of "how" are super lost on me. :)

However, I unfortunately didn't notice their comments until about a month later, so I never got back to them.

I wanted to take this opportunity to expand on the idea a bit, get some more focused community feedback, and (hopefully) catch their eye again. If anyone has their contacts, it'd be awesome if they could be directed to this thread- I think this discourse could be great for Riot and the playerbase.

So, to expand on my original comment- for those who don't know, CCP (the makers of Eve Online) have what they call a "council" of players that are elected from the community, that they meet with on a regular basis to discuss the state of the game, needed balance changes, and wanted additions/subtractions from the game.

We could mirror something like this in our community- elect a 'council' of players (preferably all level 30 and having been around and active in the community for a while). Hopefully we could have several different types of representatives; something along the lines of 2 pros, 2 challengers, 2 slots for any ranked players, 2 players who don't play ranked but have still been around a while, and 2 for each of the alternate game modes would be ideal.

Elections could be held at something like 6 month intervals and be very open and public. Every month, Riot could meet up (Skype call?) with the members of the council and each one could bring up a topic/topics that they feel are very important. The minutes of the meeting could be posted afterwords for the public to read.

The importance of this council-like system is huge. It would allow players to feel, more than ever, that Riot is directly listening to their concerns. We could elect people who we feel represent our own concerns and ideas, and through those people we could get direct responses to our questions.

Further, this is good for Riot as well- rather than having only a few staff members to keep track of all of the opinions from the many different player-types, these council members could effectively do that for them, distilling and handling the opinions of smaller portions of the playerbase. Each individual player has more of a chance to be heard by a council member than they would to be heard by an actual Riot team member. This is right in line with Riot's ideals of gathering data meaningfully.

I'm really excited to hear what everyone (both on the Riot team and the player side of things) has to say on this. I'll also mention this: I currently work in game development, but I am looking for a new job as well. I'd love to help Riot out with setting this up.

36 Comments

EMOFRATPARTY3 votes

I'm also unfamiliar with how EVE's government specifically works, but from the news I've read it seems very efficient. The Tribunal seems like an emulation of their Council on a more micro-managed level, in part, and there are pros and cons to both systems.

GIGANTIC EDIT: It would help if we broke down both systems from a broad level and then built back up from there. Please correct me on any information that may be inaccurate.

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CSM (Council of Stellar Management)

For a primer, please read the Wiki for the CSM.

  • The CSM as a buffer between EVE players and CCP. The most analogous role would be a forum moderator, but with both micro and macro responsibilities.
  • Issues are presented to the CSM, who then meet to discuss issues at a pre-determined time. Said issues are either approved, tabled, rejected, or left to revisit, and the CSM is then given a direct line of communication with CCP devs.
  • All CSM activity is available to the public. The Wiki is incredibly well-organized, and you can read reports for individual cases. It's hard to know what impact the cases have without being an EVE player, but the fact that there's direct communication between CCP and the community is a victory in and of itself.
  • The Council cycles out (unsure of when this happens), and they are currently on their ninth (9th) set of members.
  • No topic is off the table. Issues range from having a focus group centered on accessibility to developers being asked to play the game more.

Overall, it seems like a very fluid conduit between community and developer.

The Tribunal

For a primer, please read the FAQ for The Tribunal.

  • The Tribunal is a collection of LoL players who are of a high enough rank to review the actions of reported players.
  • Such reported players are only brought to the Tribunal after 'x' amount of reports (unsure of the subjectiveness of this system). Reviewers are then able to pardon or punish the player in question; that information is passed onto Player Support, who then deems the proper penalty (if any) for the player.
  • Rule-breaking is left to the discretion of the community and The Tribunal. Likewise, the amount of reports required to be considered for Tribunal trial is subjective.
  • Reviewers are able to skip cases; however, skipping cases counts against a Tribunal member's case limit (currently capped at 2).
  • When the Tribunal is in recess, it means that cases are currently being built for review. Upon having enough cases, The Tribunal will resume activity.

There are obviously significant differences, pros, and cons between the two systems. Below, I'll break those specifics down and propose a solution.

EMOFRATPARTY1 votes

CSM (Council of Stellar Management)

PROS:

  • text

CONS:

  • text

OVERALL ANALYSIS:

  • text

The Tribunal

PROS:

  • text

CONS:

  • text

OVERALL ANALYSIS:

  • text
Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I am going to look at this wiki, well-organized but public process documentation is difficult! Great info, keep going!

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

Overall, love the idea but I can think of a few hurdles to overcome. By no means am I saying these can't be overcome, but simply things to ponder.

#####Experience
Candidate would need an accurate understanding of basic game design and general game knowledge to effectively communicate and discuss issues. You can't just let random people in, you know?

#####Activity
There are so many smart, talented people here. All of which would be awesome candidates, but there has to be a guarantee they can be present for their 'duties'. Honestly, I doubt this will be a problem, but just as a small note they'll probably need to show their passion and commitment.

#####Terms
6 Months sounds like a good area, but I think to better fit LoL we could go with a single season (including pre-season) counting as a 'term'. But there's also the question of consecutive terms. Should there be a limit of some kind to prevent stagnation?

#####Leaks
I'm assuming that these hypothetical candidates will probably get early looks or even early access to future content releases. Sure a simple contract could mitigate the danger, but overall I think it would be better to have an estabalished trust between the candidates and the Rioters.

#####Electoral College

Not a problem, but a personal request. Can we please at least consider having an electoral college system and not a strictly direct democracy voting system here? There are brilliant people in the community, but the community as whole has proven to be very vulnerable to simple sensationalism and falsified facts, I simply do not trust the community (in the perspective of the group not individuals) with decisions like this.

#####Campaigning

slippery slope, we have to avoid any form of campaigning and political promises. The second someone is elected because of what they'll say they'll do instead of what they've already done it's over imho.

#####Vote Cheating

In a playerbase of millions and even a small amount of influence in the most popular game in the world, people will try to cheat. This would be mostly on Riot's end when it comes to hacking and the like, but any logistical cheating like multiple account nominations and buying votes could be planned around possibly.

Idea for a possible election process in reply to this comment, so you can collapse and read easier.

I'm thinking about a possible active system, but I'm tired and will probably go to sleep before I think of a well-rounded one so tell me what you think about the election bit! Also, this is proving to be a very interesting and fun thing to think about I would love to collaborate with you on this if you'd have me :)

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

So, idea for a possible election process:

#####Nomination

A Rioter nominates a candidate privately based on their activity, demonstration of game knowledge and overall being awesome. If the candidate blabs this and it gets out, they're disqualified (as a good test against leaks).

#####Pool

The selected Candidates form a pool. Here Rioters and current Council members can further review them for eligibility, possibly even interview.

#####Announcement

The pool's roster is revealed, possibly with bios, Q+A's, and other forms of description like links to their in-game and forum profile. Note: If bios are done I personally would prefer them being written by others and not the candidates themselves for better perspective.

#####Voting

Personally I'm for an electoral college system, but we would still want a popular vote nonetheless. I would go for no advertising in the client but a decent amount in the forums. Maybe a little in r/leagueoflegends, maybe.

#####Seats

Honestly, 2 per ranked tier, 2 per alt game mode and 2 pros sounds good to me. Not too many to keep track of, but enough to introduce differing opinions. The only thing I would add would be a 3rd chair for each area as a back-up and as a protegee of sorts, so they can gain a bit of experience to 'pad their resume' for next term if they're nominated again.

Rathlord1 votes

The one thing I'm iffy about, as I mentioned above, is having Riot head the nomination process. I'd be realllllly worried, not that Riot would abuse their power, but that everyone would accuse them of it. For instance, if X candidate got picked by Riot but not Y, Y would then say "Well Riot only picked X because she'll never complain about anything."

Not only does that look bad on Riot (even when it's not true), it could also make Y not want to participate ever again- which would be a shame, because perhaps she was at the top of the list of the ones cut, and might have made it in for the next time!

Sneak Dog2 votes

You forgot something possibly major: Regions.

I don't know Eve online, but League has a lot, LOT of regions and not representing a region would ruffle up the local playerbase. If you do represent them, there is a languange barrier between the council and either Riot if you have a council per region (lots of meetings for Riot though) or in the council itself.

I'd suggest having a council per region and letting them meet up with the local community manager. Seeing as the council could bring any topic to the table, not only balance, having a community manager instead of a developer meet with them wouldn't be a great loss, instead, Riot could give the manager the connections to direct the raised points to the right people.

Off-topic: I'm amazed by the quality of these posts and discussion, keep it up.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

You bring a good point and an equally good proposal, honestly besides a thank you I don't have too much more to add. :)

(Thank you)

Rathlord1 votes

I would certainly be okay with, say, the council pre-emptively giving the community manager the questions- say, 1 week before meeting? Then the community manager meets with the council, goes over the questions and answers, and then jots down any follow-up questions to be answered by a few days later at most.

As far as the regions thing goes, I hadn't exactly forgotten- it crossed my mind a few times and I was just waffling on the best way to sort it. I certainly don't think NA or EU should get any preferential treatment, so what you're suggesting does sound like the best plan.

Thanks so much for the input! I'll probably add this to the google doc whenever I have time to get that going. An injury at work has kinda killed my motivation to do much except sleep, but typing shouldn't be too much of a pain.

Rathlord1 votes

The one thing I want to say is that I don't think Riot should have the final say on which people get to be considered/voted for. It's really important that there's not even a chance of people accusing them of having compromised integrity (aka picking people who won't complain or who only take Riot's side, etc). To avoid this, it'd be best to have the community completely spearhead the nomination process.

About the 'campaigning,' I get what you're saying here. I still remember people handing out candy the day of the student body president elections way back when I was in high school to try to get people's votes. We certainly don't want that. However, I'm definitely not against people introducing themselves and explaining why they think they'd be good for the job. And certainly promises like "I promise to bring forward the concerns of X players about how Yorick is OP" are fine to say, just not promises like "I promise to get Yorick nerfed".

As far as the electoral college, I'm certainly not opposed to the idea, but the logistics behind it I'm not sure about. Do we elect people to the electoral college? Do we elect people to elect the people to the electoral college? Where I'm going with this is, how would you (or anyone else) recommend setting this up?

I'm hoping we can pull together firm ideas for Riot so if/when someone notices, they have a great well of solid information/inspiration to draw from. Thanks for the awesome feedback!

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Yeah, as a disclaimer, I thought this up while I was half asleep, lol. But that's what an initial rough sketch is for right?

The one thing I want to say is that I don't think Riot should have the final say on which people get to be considered/voted for

I understand, but an equal concern of mine is some kind of filter for candidates to be selected based o their game knowledge and attitude rather than, say, how many funny league memes they posted in the last month. It's a very valid concern for any Rioter having control over any portion of the election process but I'm hard-pressed to figure out a candidate selection method based on capability and not just simple popularity. After the first council is made the members could nominate themselves but then someone would need to create the pool for the very first. Any ideas there?

Also, as a warning, if this is ever left to an application process there would be warms upon swarms of people coming in. I am confident leaving it to a nomination style process would be the best way to go.

I'm definitely not against people introducing themselves and explaining why they think they'd be good for the job

Introductions and descriptions and all that are great, always good to get more information out there. Ideally for me, however, I would like someone else in the process, anyone really, and not just them typing it up. An interview or bio made by someone else would be good in my book. My reasoning is just my witness to how easily impressionable the League community is (which based on my recent small sample Age survey isn't too surprising....). Having someone else do the process takes some of the word and topic choice control out of the candidate's hands and that's what I'm shooting for, hell even an AmA would be fine, as someone else is still asking the questions. But, I also want to emphasize that's an 'ideal' for me and completely understand anyone not wanting and/or simply not being able to do that.

As far as the electoral college

This is mainly where me being sleepy kicked in, because now I realize that the League forum base (as Kchaosrei said) is a small percentage of the playerbase and can act as a de-facto Electoral college, as the average forum poster, imho, is at least a bit more informed about the state of the game and Riot's goals than the average player. Would probably want to limit the voting to level 30's also in any case, now that I think about it....

As far as starting this up (the whole thing) I would start by trying to get a hold of individual Rioters to get their opinion and hopefully spread the idea on the red side. Even though this will honestly ive them more trouble and possibly act as a check to some of their actions, we'll still need to get their approval no matter what. Unfortunately I would definitely say this is still a rough, unrefined idea in its current iteration. We need a polished, detailed process first :)

Rathlord2 votes

Good points all around. So, how about if for the first council, Riot nominates candidates to be voted on, and after that the council members all vote on a wide pool of candidates before they leave? That's a rather good idea on your part. Might be a bit of a "necessary evil" for the first part, but after that it can be an open system.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I'd be fine with that, but end of the day that's one vote!

There is still the issue of how terms should be handled as well as other necessary logistics such as what would happen if a council member was banned or 'resigned' for any reason, and ways to ensure equal representation (such as finding equally respectable bronze and plat reps and making sure the pros don't get too entitled and what not)

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Out of curiosity have you posted this to GD as well? If you have I would love a link so I can see how they're reacting.

Rathlord1 votes

I haven't. I really waffled on what would be the best place to post this. I might cross post there as well at some point. GD can be a real hellhole sometimes, though.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I don't have time right now to reply to all of you, but I'll give my thoughts this afternoon when I get home!

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

No problem, simply curious. GD may be a very negative place, but it is a large audience and therefore a necessary evil when you have such a refinable idea.

Personally I would advise against cross-posting (as far as posting a link to this post), and simply re-posting this separately. A lot of people will just bring CB hate to this post and downvote it unfortunately :(

Angry Monster1 votes

Sry but choseing from these forums would be a jk. Their are way to many extreams on all sides.

Populate Groups that should never be part of said Council.
White knights (people that think any thing negative is bad)
GD mains
Constant complainers
Dreamers (people that have no concern about reality or effects of changes on the game)

Each of these groups are bad in their own way.

So i pretty much voided out most of the ""community"". Most of the known personalities on the forums fall under those categories. I personally would never trust any council in general. This is not a MMO where people constantly play with each other and can get to know the players.

Meaningful relationships just do not have a purpose here. We do not choose our team mates but a random machine does. Nor do we play with X summoner again. We move on look for new team mates. There is a bigger limit how many people you can play with in LOL compared to MMOs.

The other problem is that the forums do not represent even 1/10 of online players. How can said group be picked for such a niche community?

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

There a few things you need to reconsider.

First off, no where did he say it had to be from the forums, he's simply posting his idea on the forums that has to do with the playerbase. Personally I would prefer them to be nominated by a Rioter from the forums as they're at least a decent way of showing interest and game knowledge, but the simple fact is a slip up like makes it seem as if you didn't read the entire OP.

Second, the entire point of a council is to mitigate the divergent 'extremes' of the masses and try to improve their experience as as best as possible. The reasoning that a player council would be able to hep with that is the simple fact that they are players themselves and not devs. Any Council would have to go though some form of election process and anyone you listed would hopefully not be able to make it.

Meaningful relationships just do not have a purpose here.

I'm confused on why you have to have a meaningful relationships with random individuals to show your capacity to represent a large portion of the playerbase. No, I don't make friends with every other person because this game itself is not conducive to that, but I could still have a decent outlook on people's thoughts on a new item, an old champ or another area of the game by doing my own research. And, sorry, but if you have to play with that person to trust them and you expect to do that by just randomly playing the game and running into them then you have an issue. Nothing would stop you from playing with any of these hypothetical candidates via a direct request. No, they wouldn't start a ranked team with you an devote several weeks but I doubt that happens in EVE's council either.

The other problem is that the forums do not represent even 1/10 of online players

You're thinking in ideals. Yes only a minority of players would be accurately represented if you bring in individuals, but there are two things that need to discussed. The average player's interest in the game's design, and the average player's voice. What I mean by the former is how many players do you truly think cares about the patch notes, upcoming buffs/nerfs, new items etc. that are not already on the forums? Further, since either forum is open to any player (that hasn't been banned) are the people who don't take the few minutes to go to the forums and voice their opinion really wanting to be accurately represented? The latter of the two I'm simply referring to the fact that even if this council existed that wouldn't stop Rioters from coming here and listening to individuals, that's Riot's main claim to fame and they wouldn't just top that because they can actually talk to 12 or so players.

Also, out of curiosity, do you you know how the American election process works? Namely electoral colleges? I'm not saying it should be cloned, but it's a relevant precedent for representation of several million people.

Angry Monster1 votes

Why should a minority have any say on this game? What qualifications do forum goers have to give any legit feedback but their personal/biased opinions? Riot already takes that kind of feed back.

Try to compare this to government jobs is ridiculous, unless they are going to hold monthly meeting and be accountable to every player in the game. In real life the politicians actually are accountable and have to meet with voters. To expect a ""volunteer"" group to have to actually have a fraction of understanding of the community is ridiculous.

All the different tiers (bronze-challenger) have different concerns. But i would argue that anyone below Gold does not have a legit understanding of this game.(though a minority of those gold and higher do not understand the game also.) So would you put bronze players that do not a have a clue in group that is giving game play feed back? So does this council become an elitist thing since the highest tiers understand the game the best? Well now you are shutting out 90% of the people. Their is no good solution to this problem. I am the first to admit I don't not respect bronze opinions in game play(cause i think they do not have a legit understanding of the game and they are just complaining.)

I have played many MMOs and have been decently well know in those servers. Rep means everything end game. You will not get in a decent guild or be allowed to join raids if people know have a bad attitude or no skill/refuse to learn about the game. Here rep does not follow you like a MMO. You play with one or 2 new players from solo Q but you do not form long term relationships. So acting out every so often does not mean anything. If toxic players acted this way in a traditional MMO they would be shunned/hunted. This is why rep does not matter. We do not have that kind of system to deal with or even track.

Rathlord2 votes

Heya Kchaosrei, thanks for taking the time to post again.

Why should a minority have any say on this game? What qualifications do forum goers have to give any legit feedback but their personal/biased opinions? Riot already takes that kind of feed back.

I'd like to again mention that this is in no way limited to the forums. Personal opinions is what Riot wants from people, so in that regard it's actually the most legit possible feedback. This would, again, be a better way to see what the majority of people (or at least those who actually care) think, because the representatives could judge the most common questions/problems players bring to them, and then bring those common questions/problems to Riot. It saves Riot time, ensures that more people will be heard, lets the council pick up things that the few Riot employees miss out of the HUGE community, etc. This would also make absolutely sure that frequently asked questions that have never been answered get answered.

Try to compare this to government jobs is ridiculous, unless they are going to hold monthly meeting and be accountable to every player in the game. In real life the politicians actually are accountable and have to meet with voters. To expect a ""volunteer"" group to have to actually have a fraction of understanding of the community is ridiculous.

Monthly meetings is definitely something they need. Further, just like in government jobs, the people hold the council members accountable, and the council members hold Riot accountable. You call a lot of things ridiculous in this post, but you have no proof behind it. It's not "ridiculous" to compare this to the government; it's completely apt. They're like systems with like goals and like set-ups. That is, by nature, a strong comparison. Just because two things aren't identical, doesn't mean it's ridiculous to compare them.

Further, it's not "ridiculous" for a volunteer group to understand the community, either. They could easily set up some kind of subforum as a "meet your representative" forum where people could bring their concerns to the appropriate rep. It would be a much more efficient system than we have in place.

All the different tiers (bronze-challenger) have different concerns. But i would argue that anyone below Gold does not have a legit understanding of this game.

I get the slight impression you've not actually read my posts before responding here. I specifically mentioned that bronze through diamond would get a set of reps just for them, at any rank. Further, even players in bronze have concerns and deserve a voice (according to your statement earlier, you were upset not everyone was getting a voice; now you think fully 90% of the community doesn't deserve one?). I also mentioned have a rep for unranked players. There's lot of casuals who just like to play the game and have thousands of wins, but don't play ranked. They may well know more and be better than some of the challenger players we have. Having a "no rank" and "low rank" group ensures that there's no skill required to be on the council, but also completely ensures that there will be (with the flip side high ranked/pro groups).

Here rep does not follow you like a MMO.

For high profile players (and people on the council are going to be watched keenly as paragons of the community) this is flagrantly untrue. Some players (especially at high ranks) are well known for being toxic. Some are well known for being friendly. This is also true of forum goers, live streamers, and YouTubers. I get the feeling you only think this because you're not actively involved in the community; there is a big, passionate community here.

I hope you'll consider what I'm saying. Further, CCP and the Eve Online council is hard evidence that this works. And again, I strongly feel most of your post is perfectionist fallacy. More representation > less representation, full stop. It's what Riot wants and what the players want, and an attitude like yours purely gets in the way of those goals.

Rathlord1 votes

Heya guys- wanted to thank everyone for their feedback.

We're definitely going to need plenty, both positive and negative, to thrash out a functional system.

Kchaosrei, I'm glad you brought up some of these points! I hope you'll give me the chance to change your mind, though.

A lot of what you posted sound like you have more of a problem with democracy than this idea in general, almost. These are all very valid criticisms of any democratic system. However, to say that because of these criticisms this is a bad idea is a bit of a perfectionist fallacy; in layman's terms, what I mean is that just because a solution isn't perfect doesn't mean it's not a good idea. In my opinion, it works towards Riot's goals of having ever increasing and more productive player and staff communication and involvement while simultaneously sating the players' desire to be heard.

So i pretty much voided out most of the ""community"". Most of the known personalities on the forums fall under those categories.

You have discovered a universal truth here; everyone is flawed! But that's okay. When you get a good mix of these flawed people, you still accurately represent how the greater community feels, and they can still bring meaningful feedback to the developers.

Meaningful relationships just do not have a purpose here.

First of all, I find this fairly inaccurate. I've got lots of people I enjoy playing with/against on my friend's list (more than I do in several of the MMO's I've played). Further, think about the broad spectrum. You don't have to know them personally to vote for them. YouTube personalities, live streamers, pro gamers, and just plain friendly/nice people on the forums. These people exist, and you can judge from them who to pick and who not to.

The other problem is that the forums do not represent even 1/10 of online players. How can said group be picked for such a niche community?

In the US, only just over half of citizens eligible to vote turn out each year. That doesn't mean that democracy is broken; we can't give a voice to people who don't care enough to make themselves heard. The same is true for League. If they care, they can register on the forums and take part; if they don't, they don't. And if they don't care and aren't invested in the future of League, for whatever reason, then they don't particularly need to be represented.

I hope this clears some things up, and maybe you can help us form a great system to work with each other for a better future!

Angry Monster2 votes

So i am getting down voted for voicing my thoughts(aka white knighted) i am being proved in why this can not exist. I feel that i was honest and not attacking. I could be wrong though. I did not expect upvotes but to be down voted for my thoughts/ concerns is a bit much and shows the kind of people the forums deal with.

(Copied from a previous reply i did in your thread but i wanted you to see this. at the end there is a new part dealing with democracy.)

Why should a minority have any say on this game? What qualifications do forum goers have to give any legit feedback but their personal/biased opinions? Riot already takes that kind of feed back. Try to compare this to government jobs is ridiculous, unless they are going to hold monthly meeting and be accountable to every player in the game. In real life the politicians actually are accountable and have to meet with voters. To expect a ""volunteer"" group to have to actually have a fraction of understanding of the community is ridiculous.

All the different tiers (bronze-challenger) have different concerns. But i would argue that anyone below Gold does not have a legit understanding of this game.(though a minority of those gold and higher do not understand the game also.) So would you put bronze players that do not a have a clue in group that is giving game play feed back? So does this council become an elitist thing since the highest tiers understand the game the best? Well now you are shutting out 90% of the people. Their is no good solution to this problem. I am the first to admit I don't not respect bronze opinions in game play(cause i think they do not have a legit understanding of the game and they are just complaining.)

I have played many MMOs and have been decently well know in those servers. Rep means everything end game. You will not get in a decent guild or be allowed to join raids if people know have a bad attitude or no skill/refuse to learn about the game. Here rep does not follow you like a MMO. You play with one or 2 new players from solo Q but you do not form long term relationships. So acting out every so often does not mean anything. If toxic players acted this way in a traditional MMO they would be shunned/hunted. This is why rep does not matter. We do not have that kind of system to deal with or even track.

(The new part)

I have no problem with democracy. But what level of democracy should be need in any situation is a thing of opinion. Democracy is not need in every situation. Nor does democracy mean things will be better. In business there are leaders and people in charge for a reason. Mostly since groups tend to do to many things at once.

You have not shown why this is necessary. What makes you think that riot would hear our concerns any more and do something about it? Lee, lucian, still not nerfed and minor problem Champs still being olafed(dianna,poopy, ali(he is finally getting looked at after 2 years) olaf,sorka, ect) have been admitted as problems yet the only thing riot does is sit on them. Why would riot care what a focus group says when they do not even deal with publicly admitted issues?

Rathlord1 votes

You have not shown why this is necessary. What makes you think that riot would hear our concerns any more and do something about it? Lee, lucian, still not nerfed and minor problem Champs still being olafed(dianna,poopy, ali(he is finally getting looked at after 2 years) olaf,sorka, ect) have been admitted as problems yet the only thing riot does is sit on them. Why would riot care what a focus group says when they do not even deal with publicly admitted issues?

You've just proved my point utterly, though. You're going into this with such a negative attitude you're not even seeing that this would help you with these exact concerns.

If they decided to do this, that would require them to commit to it in the public. This would mean straight answer for us on the very questions you just posed. You're saying they wouldn't give straight answers, but that's like saying "well a car won't go down a road. The engine will just explode." You're pre-assuming failure and then judging the idea on that pre-assumption. Classical circular logic.

If you read the OP, that paragraph from the dev blog, they specifically say they DO want to deal with issues better. This would be a solution that would help. Two Rioters even publicly posted that they're interested in the idea. I don't understand why you're shooting it down when it specifically caters to your two concerns:

  1. Riot's not communicating well enough for you, and
  2. You don't feel your specific problems have been addressed.

If this was implemented, it would be monthly meetings, meaning they MUST communicate, and you could bring up your concerns with a council member so they could bring it up with Riot, especially if more people mirrored your problems.

Angry Monster1 votes

So you dismiss the people that do not agree with you after one posting? GG sir, goodluck with life.

Rathlord2 votes

I'm not dismissing you in any way; I have meaningfully and respectfully argued my point. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Rathlord1 votes

Oh, and one more thing. Being downvoted doesn't prove your point. It means that people disagree. That's the whole point of the up/down vote system. It's to show agreement and disagreement. I can specifically show you where Riot has stated this.

Downvoting people you disagree with ≠ white knighting.

This attitude comes from a victim complex- please, no one here is attacking or being rude to you, but people are allowed to disagree.

Angry Monster1 votes

down voted for my opinions.. Nope it totally shows my point. You said you want to convenience me. You failed with this post. Down voting only shows intolerance and meant to bury posts.

You may disagree with my point of views, but to down vote says what i have to say is worthless.

If what i have to say is so worthless i am gone from this thread

Rathlord1 votes

You'll notice that in the Community Beta Rules/Welcome thread, stickied by Riot ( http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/ihjTpbAx-welcome-to-the-community-beta)

  1. Report - To be used if a post/comment is found offensive and moderator action needs to be taken. NOT TO BE USED IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE POST, THAT'S WHAT THE DOWNVOTE IS FOR

The corollary of this is that downvoting is for posts you don't like or disagree with. That is literally what the feature is there for. I'm sorry that you find people disagreeing with you offensive. Best of luck, and thanks for your interest in my thread.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

So just wanted to say, downvoting is a very broadly interpreted use. You may see it as a straight shut-down while others see it as a "I respectfully disagree". In the end though, downvoted within a conversations shouldn't matter at all, as it's not disconnecting you from the active conversation you are having with rathelord. I'm sorry that you are happy to dish out criticism but can't seem to take any yourself. Just because someone is disagreeing with you does not mean they are attacking you, just as you yourself said you were not doing. No where did anyone say your opinions were worthless and if you are really that uppity about fake internet points then just cover it up with your finger and continue reading.

Note: I am not the who downvoted you, I value equal opportunity for opinions.

Angry Monster1 votes

I am sure you realize, but i post in your threads. And we almost never agree or share similar opinions.

Down voting in a LEddit system only buries thoughts that you do not agree with. To down vote is to say this post is not worth the light of day. Wither or not Riot realizes this, it does not make for a open conversation.

The OP decided to address what he sees are my faults in personality in a post instead of what i posted. It is a waste of time to talk to people when they avoid the points of issues brought up. I enjoy the exchange of ideas( which is why i post in your threads).

I will see you in your other threads.

Rathlord2 votes

I feel that I've spent huge chunks of my time writing out well thought out replies to your concerns. I'm sorry you're getting downvoted, but I haven't been talking about your faults. I've been replying to your concerns. Please stop taking the fact that people disagree with you as personal attacks.

SierraOne1 votes

Hey there! I'm not a huge League player, but it is a really awesome game. What I do play a lot is EVE. And I tell you that their Council system works. Very rarely will you have disgruntled capsuleers rioting against CCP. I mean, there's always that one group of people that complain about everything, and of course you can't please everyone, but the majority of the player base is satisfied, and the gaming experience is pretty good (despite the wallet-draining, bank-breaking evil subscription of DOOM!!! monthly subscription.)

Anyways, I like what's going on here, and you definitely get my upvote.

You need to get Riot onboard with this ASAP, and hash out the details with them.

Rathlord1 votes

Thanks for the support! If you have any specific recommendations, I'd love to hear them! I played a fair bit of Eve Online but never got quite good enough to try to keep up with the Council and all that, so any important bits of how that works that could be transplanted here would be good to know.

I definitely agree, though, on the whole people in Eve are very happy with their representation, and the council gets results.

SierraOne1 votes

I noticed that someone (maybe you?) said you didn't want ads in-client. I respectfully disagree. If you've ever played EVE during or before a CSM Election, you'll notice that there is a small banner ad to let players know they can vote for their next CSM Representatives. It could something be really small, Like on of those News Items they have on the launcher, or bigger, like the full page ads they have during LCS. The whole point is so that voters are informed and ready, and everyone gets an equal opportunity.

At this stage in planning, even though you don't have anything rock-solid yet, I think it's necessary to get Riot on board with this. That way things are less "concept" and more "reality".

Rathlord1 votes

It wasn't me that mentioned the ads, but I think he meant more like "Vote for ME!" ads than "Here is your chance to vote!" ads. I'd definitely be okay with the latter coming up in the news section.

I sure am hoping Riot will get on board. If anyone knows how to contact either of the two who replied to me originally that'd be extremely helpful. I might also look into throwing up a Google Doc with some actual solid designs and procedures, and leave it open for people to edit so we can work with it.

SierraOne1 votes

Ok then. I think you should go ahead and start that Google Docs page. The more you have to show them, the better.

And yeah, can someone contact those guys?

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