@Tamat - Moderation a la JaGeX

Daen·Jul 20, 2014·14 votes·944 views

Hi everyone,

I wanted to outline some of the important parts of my favorite forum moderation system of all time as I feel it could be valuable for the development of these Boards. JaGeX is the company that develops RuneScape, and I feel that the way they approached their forums during the time I played was brilliant.

#JaGeX moderators (J-Mods) had their own individual identities

JaGeX did not believe in canned responses; every moderator was an individual person and had autonomy in how they dealt with problems
J-Mods were community figures first and mods second; they were people that players loved to interact with that also happened to be able to moderate
J-Mods constantly set up little forum games and competitions with players, such as a "fight" between three J-Mods where players sided with their favorite J-Mod
They were able to do this without needing to consult with other teams; the J-Mods would just decide to set up an event and follow through on it

#Every moderation action was publicly visible

When a J-Mod moved a thread, a locked ghost copy of the thread was left behind and clicking it navigated to the new location
J-Mods never deleted threads; they posted on the thread with their reasoning and locked it to prevent further interaction
J-Mods were able to edit specific posts, and when this was done it would show a visible notification on that post with the name of the moderator

#Player Moderators were massively important in the system

JaGeX would pick out the absolute best community members and offer them the ability to volunteer as a Forum Moderator
These F-Mods were trained by JaGeX and had all the same abilities and restrictions as J-Mods
F-Mods functioned as a bridge between the general player-base and JaGeX on important issues such as balance, stability, and discussion
EDIT: It seems as though Wrenchmen currently fill a very similar function to JaGeX's F-Mods. This could be interesting to discuss

TL:DR - JaGeX moderation was all about individuality and player-developer interaction. It seems like these two concepts are what Riot is all about, and it concerns me a bit that the current moderation solution is, for the most part, behind closed doors. I have no idea if this will change or I'm misinterpreting the system, but that's my feeling on the current state of things.

Daen

11 Comments

TamatJul 23, 20144 votes

Thanks for posting this. I'm actually fairly familiar with how moderation is done at this, and other companies in the gaming industry, but given how different the Boards as a platform is, our approach is going to be different over a few dimensions.

Moderators with individual identities

I'm not opposed to moderators having their own unique identities, but until we're comfortable with the team, we're going to be keeping the footprint of the moderators to a minimum. We think that you having access to more Rioters is more important. Keep in mind, that our moderators are currently contractors, not Rioters, and though we spend a lot of time training them so that their actions are consistent and player focused, this hasn't always been the case, and we're in the middle of improving that.

Moderation actions publicly visible

No. We've seen this request on and off, but this approach would not benefit the Boards, or most players. It creates a lot of unnecessary noise, would require development work, and the benefits don't outweigh the problems it would create. Individual players that have their content removed will get a moderator message, that's a pretty big step from what we used to doe may do something more down the road, but I can't see us doing what you proposed.

Player Moderators

Absolutely! We're planning this down the road, but not in the ways you would expect. I can't go into a ton of detail, but we're putting a lot of thought into how this will work, and should have more information for you about this year. It's going to be badass.

Would be more than happy to go into some more detail if you have specific questions. I'll check back on this thread later tonight.

DaenJul 23, 20141 votes

Thanks for the answer.

Moderators with individual identities

Keep in mind, that our moderators are currently contractors

I didn't realize that was the case, it makes a lot more sense the way things are done knowing that. Are you planning to eventually have the moderators be Rioters, or stay contractors for the foreseeable future? Personally I'd heavily encourage the idea of Rioter moderators, it's a more inclusive feeling.

Moderation actions publicly visible

We've seen this request on and off, but this approach would not benefit the Boards, or most players.

What happens when a moderator does something by accident or otherwise makes a mistake? How do players approach the moderation staff to discuss this? Moderators can be extremely well-trained and still occasionally make mistakes.

Individual players that have their content removed will get a moderator message

Does this include players that posted on a thread that was deleted and/or players that participated in a nested discussion where an important part was removed? What about players that might have been interested in a thread they saw, bookmarked it for later, tried to find it, and found nothing? That looks like a bug if there's no ghost left behind, not a successful moderation effort.

Player Moderators

Absolutely!

Well that's exciting! I presume this will be a Boards-specific thing rather than extending into the client as well?

PryotraJul 23, 20143 votes

Moderation actions publicly visible

No. We've seen this request on and off, but this approach would not benefit the Boards, or most players. It creates a lot of unnecessary noise, would require development work, and the benefits don't outweigh the problems it would create. Individual players that have their content removed will get a moderator message, that's a pretty big step from what we used to doe may do something more down the road, but I can't see us doing what you proposed.

Say what you will about Jagex, but their moderator team is one of the very few parts of that company I still respect. And it is a direct consequence of them being transparent in their actions.

I don't know why you insist upon not showing people what moderation your "team" performs. This attitude from Riot in general is the exact reason alot of GD'ers have trust issues with riot. We see the power trips, we see the abuse the system gets, but no rationale, and no mod to call when something actually needs addressing.

Remember this? http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=27912760#27912760

I do. I've been holding Riot to it, that day when the awesome would come back. Well, sad to say, but I'm still waiting. If that thread got made today, the post would be deleted and the OP would be perma'd from the forums, minimum. That's the expectation that alot of GD'ers nowadays have of threads, and that is the sort of bias your new moderation team has to face. Making 1 change in right direction and then claiming, and I quote:

that's a pretty big step from what we used to do

That means nothing. Why? It's because ANY action would be a pretty big step. You performed 0 steps previous, you have now performed 1 step. That is infinitely better, but only because you can't compare action to inaction. I could be a couch potatoe for DAYS, get off of my sofa 1 day and walk into my backyard to sit in the sun, and claim that I had done alot of exercise today. Well, yeah, if I am comparing it to my norm, walking 5+ feet would be alot of exercise.

This may come across as scathing, but realize that isn't my intention. Blunt honesty is. You have improved. You haven't finished. Not even close. There was a reason I brought that ancient skeleton of a post out by the way. Particularly, for this line.

You holding faith that we WILL do better is important to us, and don't be afraid to call us out when we're not as awesome as we usually are - because it is critical for us to keep our execution bar as high (or even higher) than it has always been.

Let me be clear. RIOT moderation's "awesome" levels are microscopic in comparison to the rest of Riot. They always have been, and they have only recently started even trying to improve. What. The. Heck. I don't even have enough characters left in this post to quote the innumerable posts made calling for better, more visible moderation. I don't want to hear that even 1 person is holding back possible levels of awesome, which is what this whole post of yours sounds like.

Please, explain how us seeing you guys even trying is a bad thing for your team or the Boards. I can't wait.

TamatJul 27, 20145 votes

I appreciate your candor. I know that moderation hasn't been awesome in vBulletin, but we are buckling down to correct this for the Boards. The challenge right now is that we're small team within Riot, and we have 1000 things we want to do. We're growing, but for now we're focusing a majority of the development resources towards other things.

Keep in mind that we're still in beta. I personally consider the Community Beta to be more of an Alpha of the Boards. That said, we're going to spend some more time as a team thinking about some of the points you raised in this discussion. We're not able to do all of it right away, but there have been some improvements recently, and that will continue over time.

PryotraJul 29, 20142 votes

That said, we're going to spend some more time as a team thinking about some of the points you raised in this discussion. We're not able to do all of it right away, but there have been some improvements recently, and that will continue over time.

Thanks for replying, and sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. RL sucks sometimes.

I get that things will take time to change, and new features will take time to develop. And while I am eager for them to change, I can also be patient. All I ask is that you, and your team, keeps trying to outdo yourselves and constantly improve. I did mention that you guys are improving, and you have quite a bit. I just hope this isn't it.

CynicattJul 20, 20142 votes

Currently, on the Wildstar forums, their moderators always comment on a thread stating why they're locking it before they lock it, and they encourage you to PM them if you have any further questions about some moderator action.

It's pretty nice, honestly.

The mods are insanely over-active though, and lock or move an astonishingly high amount of threads... but at least they tell you why they did it and aren't faceless.

DaenJul 20, 20141 votes

100% agreed on how great that feels from the perspective of a player. I didn't realize Wildstar was so progressive about forum moderation, I might go check it out to be more educated!

Sir ArmaMalumJul 20, 20141 votes

This really is a great system that really worked for Jagex, but as far as using for Riot there are a few nit-picky problems. There will have to be some form of automation simply because of the vast numbers in the forum userbase. Even with player mods or even more Riot mods there are simply too many to and-write a response, so I actually think the current system is ok if the addition of commenting by the mods and a more active community contribution by the mods (making them visible) was also added or something along those lines.

Honestly I think the easiest thing would be a system to incorporate player mods of dome kind would be the single best approach to getting to something close to this. As you said, Daen, they can form a bridge between the Riot mods and the players and they may be a viable source of compromise between the current invisible moderation and the demand for moderation identity. The main issue I can see with them is reliability, trust and training.

Reliability meaning how often these player mods actually moderated, naturally someone just sitting there with the title wouldn't be ideal. How did Jagex deal with that if you know?
Trust meaning, simply, no power abuse. This would probably just come down to making sure the right people were picked. But the possibility of removal may be a thing to think about. Did Jagex have to deal with a rogue layer mod at any time to your knowledge?
Training. I really don't know how this could be easily done besides maybe a dry online virtual lesson or seminar. How did Jagex do it? On top of that I do have an idea for that, we could have moderators-in-training who were chosen, and they can 'flag' posts for the real mods to delete and give the reason why. These player mods can then be graded or otherwise critiqued and when the mods feel they're within their tolerances of accuracy they can be promoted. This is just me thinking out loud though.

RhlaxJul 20, 20141 votes

I like the idea of Player Mods in RS for the simple reason it rewards outstanding community members. It certainly also improve the quality of the forums.

For League's forum since it has an upvote/downvote system, we might need to do it a bit differently. Here is my wild suggestion Draven :

Tiered Users There are 3 tiers (regular, exceptional, valuable)

Regular: Everyone starts here.

Exceptional: After gaining X amount of upvotes, the user levels up! He/she has a special power: Power vote (limit 2, 18 hours cool down) Use this ability to increase up vote to 2 points instead of 1 on a post. Cannot use on self.

Valuable: Rioters pick the valuable community members. The valuable user can: Power vote (limit 3, 18 hours cool down) **Concussive Blows ** Braum : Has ability to cast concussive blows (no limit, no cool down). Can only strike a particular post once. A post receiving 4 concussive blows will be removed. This means, to hide a post, it would require 4 valuable users.

DaenJul 20, 20141 votes

Personally, I disagree with a few parts of that:

The names - Having certain people be labeled as valuable and others not kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion medium
Upvotes are not an accurate metric to determine how beneficial a given person is to the Boards
Allowing people the same things as others just more (power votes) creates an inequality
If I'm in the Valuable tier, clearly Riot trusts me and specifically chose me to assist with things. Why is my ability to help so harshly limited?

RhlaxJul 20, 20141 votes

Good points.

The names - Having certain people be labeled as valuable and others not kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion medium

I have not given much thought to the names but I agree with you. "Valuable" is probably a poor choice.

Upvotes are not an accurate metric to determine how beneficial a given person is to the Boards

Again agree. There needs to be multiple metrics instead of just one.

Allowing people the same things as others just more (power votes) creates an inequality

The reason behind the idea of power votes is to bring out the good posts that are buried. Most people usually only have time for top comments. Newer comments which may contain valuable insights sometimes are buried and unread. Perhaps power vote can only applied to a certain posts (i.e. new posts, in a crowded topic)

If I'm in the Valuable tier, clearly Riot trusts me and specifically chose me to assist with things. Why is my ability to help so harshly limited?

I chose the number 4, to merely match with Braum's passive :). There could be tiered Valuable users (who can apply 1 to 4 blows to a particular post).