Ideas for community beta and why GD doesn't work

Dantilq·Feb 21, 2014·9 votes·925 views

Why is community beta necessary, why not stick to GD and just improve it?

First of all, Riot is addressing a very common feedback "why is there no reds in my region?". They are about to make ONE forum for all. Imagine GD with 10-20-100 times the current population.

You know how your topics just disappear the front page as you post them, and the threads on front page are just lots of threads people bump over and over? Imagine how bad it will be then with MUCH MUCH higher population. GD would be impossible to follow, nothing constructive would be possible to do there at all.

People doesn't want to use other subforums, so all traffic goes to GD, it's a situation that will not last forever.

Hate have as big chance to get to the top, as constructive threads, positive or negative, red posts is hard to find, unless you use one of the red trackers. In other words current system WILL NOT WORK if you merge all as one, and that is a necessity. You can't have 10 red-dead forums and 1 alive, forcing people to get smurfs to communicate with the reds.

Whole of GD is focused around red posts, whole forum is formed around communications with Riot and community. Community itself also have discussions but red interaction is core of it all, and it's important people easily talk to Rioters, and that Rioters doesn't have to waste as much time.

From that perspective, GD is horrible, it is hard for Rioters to answer, hard to find red posts, and the good content disappear into the void unless you put in lots of efforts.

Community Beta tries to achieve this better, by having a popularity based system, this means you filter out the worst posts, but a legit concern is that unpopular opinions disappear too.

A problem with community beta is also LOTS AND LOTS of good posts never hit critical mass, and people will never see them. Even when Thoorin or Travis post one of their interviews on Reddit some of them never reaches out, because they can't pass the magical threshold, so people never notice it. It disappear into the void of thousand unnoticed posts.

Another problem is that red posts are in direct conflicts with community contents, red threads will get a HUGE boost in numbers, since people can find them through lots of sources (reds advertise on twitter, reddit, GD, and they always have their red tracker). The number of posts on front page is limited, and it will mainly be filled with Red posts.

Community is focused around red posts, so what I would suggest is the following;

Have a popularity system, and popular posts rises to the top. The twist is though, once a red posts in the thread, it is moved off the popularity system and doesn't show up there. It is instead moved to a red tracker, where threads replied to by reds are put, and it's GD system based on reds there with most recent red activity on top.

Red Tracker alone will generate traffic alone just by that, so it doesn't need the popularity system. This system makes it easy for reds and community to find other red posts, and also for reds to find popular up and coming threads to respond to.

26 Comments

HalcyonicHSFeb 21, 20144 votes

The idea of segregating red posts seems fine, but it still doesn't ansewr the problem of how everything flows to GD. It's not hard to imagine that one section of the forum will become wildly popular than the others, being a second GD- just look at how crowded GD is, despite the (rather unpopular) attempts of segregating and force-moving threads to other subforums in the recent months.

Popularity is fine in concept, but once we come to a certain scale, I fear that it will be so swamped and that threads/posts that deserve attention will never recieve them. I don't really see community beta working out until it solves this issue, or at least segregating forums by region, as per currently.

DantilqFeb 22, 20141 votes

Yes it's REALLY hard to make a system that scales well with numbers. Some sort of tree structure could be possible, promoting things upwards in a tree, and you can only see content on things above you, and not on other branches.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 22, 20142 votes

I'll just leave this here, http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/NkiNNxaG-idea-category-tags-can-help-everything-heres-why

DantilqFeb 22, 20141 votes

THat is actually a great addition to any system, to allow sorting.

Doesn't solve the problem for community as much though, since you need to know what you look for to find something.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 22, 20141 votes

You're quick on the draw. That is the single biggest con that I've thought of. But I actually ironically compare that struggle to the same one we all go through leaning champions and their abilities. The community can get there, but I agree the first few hypothetical sayd would be jarring as all hell.

HellioningFeb 21, 20143 votes

I'm fine with removing posts with red's in the from the normal rotation and putting them into a separate location. I'm not sure, but it's not like it's going to bother me.

I still hate the idea of a popularity system deciding which threads I can see, though.

RoaranorFeb 21, 20142 votes

You still have the option to sort the main page (and sub-communities)by "Recent", though it is an extra step.

It's actually pretty convenient in large threads as well.

Newbert NewmanFeb 21, 20141 votes

Not a bad idea! Upvoted.

However, you did say "First of all" twice in a row at the top of your thread. Now I'm confused, which one do I read first and which one is "first of all"? :( :( the struggle is real!!!!

DantilqFeb 22, 20143 votes

I fixed this horrible error, I hope I saved future souls from this struggle.

Newbert NewmanFeb 22, 20141 votes

for posterity!!!!

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 21, 20141 votes

Te current Red tracker does this a point, showing the most recent red comment itself (albeit without context). You're idea to simply 'move' Red visited posts is an interesting angle that I find myself liking, especially since this "Red front page" ordering won't develop too quickly as it will be limited by the small number of Reds and their conversations. One problem though is when an individual but active Rioter like Ironstylus or Pendragon goes around on a normal "forum patrol" and replies to a bunch of different "virgin" posts in a burst, this has the possibility of flooding this front page and producing the exact same problem. This is a small possibility sure, but as you said, when the higher amount of traffic comes, this will continue to have a higher and higher chance of happening.

I love the idea! I just try to always think of problems ideas can run into in an attempt to improve them. Devil's advocate ftw :)

DantilqFeb 22, 20141 votes

Most probably no matter which forum model Riot chooses, they will be forced to make many sub forums, and enforce them harder.

Best way to actually enforce them is to have more red-activity in all of them. I think it would be best if Rioters started to show activity in subforums, that way people doesn't feel they are "graveyards" which is common opinion on GD.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 22, 20141 votes

I agree moderation is key, unfortunately the problem is manpower. This community, if anything, is massive. Yes there can be a veritable army of moderators hired, but there will always be more needed. So personally I think the Beta team's current purpose of trying community self-moderation as much as possible. Do I think that should replace Riot based Moderation? Hell no. But a system that grows with the community size can be invaluable as well.

MackleDogeFeb 22, 20141 votes

Only problem with that is that I don't see any examples of the community self moderation working. You have a number of occasions of people spamming defamatory, obnoxious, and immature threads insulting other players or Riot and while they will get downvoted (sometimes) those threads aren't removed. They are still sitting there and for all we know, that person can continue to make such threads as much as they want. The report button is a great feature, but only if it functions appropriately and in a timely manner, and so far I just don't see that happening.

And that example is ignoring the lighter side of moderation like moving threads that are in the wrong subcommunity into the proper one. The community has no ability to do that, but if are going to appropriately self moderate, we need that ability just for organization and subcommunity purity.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 22, 20141 votes

I agree that the lighter side is completely ignored by any form of community moderation, which is the whole reason why that can't replace good ol' regular moderation. The main thing is was trying to state was that neither has the caapcity to do what we need in a forum simply due to the size of the community. Self-moderation isn't a great thing, but it has the one distinct advantage of not being overtaken by the community's size. This isn't limited to just the report function, or volunteer mods, or anything else but anything that we can add that allows greater consistent and positive moderation via the community is sorely needs before anyone can say the League playerbase can be handled. It's nowhere near where it needs to be now of course, but the fact is taht's the direction we need to improve. On top of additional regular moderation and better moderation tools for visibility and communication.

DantilqFeb 22, 20141 votes

I don't mean moderation, I mean simply red posts. If the reds follow the sub-forum system and post in them, people notice "oh it's not a graveyard", and will start to post in them as well.

Current forum have TOO MANY sub-forums with no real activity. Even the reds mainly post in GD.

PryotraFeb 22, 20141 votes

Sry, but I feel this is a poor idea.

Firstly, I don't feel the community revolves around redposts; If that was true, then the forums would have died back around the ambassador catastrophe. I feel that the community itself can carry its own weight when it comes to content.

Secondly, a popularity system in place wouldn't help these threads hit critical mass in any way. Even taking threads where reds have already posted out of the equation makes it no less difficult to get the traction required to get off the ground.

Alot of redposts that happen in "fun" threads really shouldn't force the thread to be available ONLY through redtracker. That would unnecessarily kill alot of controversial and fun threads for little to no gain. Not to mention a red could EASILY kill a thread by posting a funny post in a serious thread, then never have to look at it again. Anyone remember the Pendragon Dog incident? Would have gotten away with it in a system like the one you propose. It never had the chance to fly thanks to GD going full ham with rage.

I feel that there are much better ways than this. While your idea is definitely new and interesting, that doesn't make it a good one. A for effort and thoughtfulness, but F for functionality and simply thinking it through.

DantilqFeb 22, 20141 votes

There are news-sites dedicated to following what the reds say, and post them in an easier to read way. Many threads are based around getting attention from the reds.

Reason why people even come to GD in first place is because it's the forum with reds in it. Of course there are activity of its own and it survive on its own, it's just many people are there for the reds.

Reds want a way to have serious discussions, which IS the reason for the popularity system, to filter out crap. You can just take so many insult posts before you get tired.

My idea is an add-on on that, to further focus forum around reds. If you don't agree forum is about reds and reds having a discussion forum, then you can't agree with the idea at all :P

PryotraFeb 22, 20141 votes

Whether or not the forums revolve around red posts doesn't address the problems with this model.

Removing red posted threads from the equation doesn't help less popular or controversial threads from reaching critical mass. A thread dedicated to pie could easily get 1000 more upvotes than a thread questioning a popular champions kit.
This model would kill "fun" threads if a Rioter posts them. I don't join "fun" threads I see in red tracker; I join "fun" threads when I see them on the front page, red post or no.
This makes it hard for Reds and the community to see whether or not a topic is still popular after a Red has posted it. It's happened before where a red posts off topic in a serious thread; in this proposed setup, it makes it easier for them to kill topics they don't want to talk about. All they have to do is post once and forget it. Out of sight, out of mind. Likewise, a Red can no longer post to tell us that they will contact a more appropriate red to come over, because it would make it much more difficult for the other red to find the post if they do.

There are better ways to do what you proposed. Again, while yours was an interesting solution, it simply isn't functional, and makes more problems than it solves.

DantilqFeb 23, 20141 votes

I can agree with your second point, but that is up to riot to handle things well. First point is a weakness of the system, but GD system have weakness too, and this is a sacrifice I think is worth taking.

I can't agree with 3 at all. If a red post in a thread it get MORE visible, since it is put on the red tracker. In a red focused world, people will read red tracker very much, so it does show up. Even if the thread is not very popular the thread have then been tagged.

PryotraFeb 23, 20142 votes

You seem to beleive that the red tracker is the solution to everything.

What if I told you there were people who never used it? You can't assume every single person uses it just because you use it. I know I didn't for the longest time. Infact, I only use it now when I see nothing worth posting in on the front page.

With that in mind, you have basically erased any chance of redposted topics to be found for those that don't subscribe to the userbase, and possibly hidden a fair amount of topics from people on days with a LARGE amount of redposts. Congratulations, your system has successfully hidden riot from a portion of the user base.

Also, Point #3 also remains an issue. Just because you didn't address the issue, doesn't mean it isn't there. Do you remember the Pendragon "this thread is now about dogs." post? How about the infamous "the beard" incident? What about the trials of the Heimerdinger resistance. I'm very sorry, but removing the population tracking from posts simply because they have had a red post in them once is a terrible idea. Especially considering you are assuming the red tracker will make up for the lost visibility.

If we lived in a world where reds only posted once in a given thread, then this system might work. Unfortunately, this isn't the case.

DantilqFeb 26, 20141 votes

The system would FORCE people to follow what the reds say, yes, and it would be an awesome system from Riot's perspective.

The reds are already hailed as mini-celebrities, and such a system would make things easier for them to communicate with the community. And they would stand out even further. This also means even higher responsibility on reds to use this power. What they say become announcements. It already is like that, but would be so even further.

Everyone wont like the system, you can't make a single system like that. You will ALWAYS completely screw some people over. They will hate you. A system for everyone is a system for no one.

By not doing anything, you ALSO screw other people over, and it can also kill you. No matter what you do you do it wrong in some peoples eyes.

My system have downsides, my system will make people angry, just like how current system both GD and Community Beta makes people angry, but it also have strengths, and those lies in the Riot<->Community conversation.

It's my opinion that this is the most important thing to focus on, and you disagree on that. We can't do much more than agree that we disagree then. I've heard your opinion, I've heard your arguments, you don't convince me, I don't convince you. We are at a stalemate then, and further arguments will just make us end up running out of arguments, either forcing us to repeat our self or use insults as arguments.

PryotraFeb 26, 20141 votes

I like how you try to shut down all conversation. Kinda the point I was making.

So, essentially, you want to remove the "Community" from the "Community Beta", which will eventually lose the beta tag. Cute. And if not remove, you minimize their importance.

I would argue having the biggest and fastest growing game is enough of a pedestal. If this is to replace GD, it must facilitate growth in the community. Because lets face it, GD feels really cramped on VBulletin. Forcing us to follow every red post doesn't help this in any way. Seeing as Riot has more or less confirmed that one day this place is to replace the old forums, you need to take this into account.

Until you can address the fact that you are essentially try to remove the community from their own home, your idea just flops.

DantilqFeb 28, 20141 votes

Yes, this is my point too, GD simply wont cut it, not with the current growth, not with a merge, and if you read my initial post I bring that up.

Yes, my whole point was to focus community around reds, put the reds in the middle of everything. Also no threads will last for overly long, unless you're doing exactly what we are doing right now, using the "new updates" feature. It's the way of reddit, to make new discussions about same topic, and let it rise then, having fresh discussions all the time.

Yes, I think we've reached an end, you didn't bring any new arguments, and your tone is starting to be condescending. This was my point as well in my last post. We will end up slinging insults since both parties are out of arguments.

PryotraFeb 28, 20141 votes

I guess this will be my last post on this issue, what with your refusal to discuss like gentlemen and the end of the nested reply system. Closing statement then.

If you are saying leddit is the way, good luck convincing the majority of posters here. To be clear, "here" means Riots official forums and the CB all combined. I honestly think that while Reddit has it's merits, nothing would remove all usefulness it holds faster than to make it forcibly revolve around ANY group.

One of the main successes of Reddit is that everyone is on equal footing. What you are essentially doing with this concept is forcing reddit into a communistic hierarchy. What I mean by this is that one core group will dictate flow of content, in this case the reds. While this may not seem like a bad thing, it marginalizes all others, which is the exact opposite of what reddit does. This will stifle voices, creativity, and promote even HARSHER circlejerk. In a system that already endorses the circlejerk, giving that problematic phenomena a buff is the LAST thing you want to do.

Honestly, I want to address this at least once before I leave. While to you I may have sounded condescending, it was not my intention. I was understandably irritated that you tried to shrug off the arguments I presented without reading them, and even more so when you tried to accuse me of "slinging insults". I was attempting to carry a civil discussion like any polite person, so I apologize if I came across that way.

Also, I am far from out of arguments, and if you had read it, my last post did indeed bring a new point; the community needs space to grow, and forcing us all to follow the reds will stifle that effort. You don't have to stop talking because you feel like you hit some arbitrary number of back and forth, otherwise nothing would have ever gotten solved in congress(while this current congress is facing this issue, pasts congressional meeting have solved some difficult problems.) This is a problem with the current architecture of this site, as it halts all discussion after a certain point of nesting. Riot NEEDS to solve this, as if the community is already regularly running into this, than imagine what happens after the merge.

If you are willing to continue this discussion, and possibly address any of the points I have made that you haven't gotten to yet, then simply respond to my first post again. I feel like the inability to continue an extended discussion is a step backwards, considering that GD supports this with little problems. While we could argue it's merits, clearly we have proven it still serves it's purpose in longer debates, such as the one right here.