Had a discussion on "Why is there no 'Praise' emote?" in Miscellaneous, and it gets deleted because it's in the wrong place. What I want to know is why someone didn't just MOVE IT to the appropriate location.
It was a good discussion, but Riot deletes it because it's "wrong place"? Wow.
Daen11 votes+1. I very much disagree with the logic that moving causes problems, I actually feel like outright deleting threads is significantly worse.
Edit: If the question "Why is there no 'Praise' emote?" doesn't belong in Miscellaneous, I have no idea where it should be. That seems like a weird deletion.
Abhishek3 votesI support these statements. People should be able to express what they want without the risk of outright deletion if they, whether accidentally or on purpose, place their thread in the wrong section of the forum. And about that question, to me that would most certainly be something to fit in Miscellaneous.
Sir ArmaMalum9 votesLogic is that each sub-board is intended to have it's own etiquette and culture. In other words, different boards have different lines of what is and isn't ok so moving threads back and forth would muddle those lines to break that intended mindset.
Just relaying, don't shoot the messenger.
Daen1 votesCan you think of an example where moving a given thread to the appropriate location would break that intended mindset, assuming the list of Boards is comprehensive?
Sir ArmaMalum3 votesThose are a few, granted they're mostly stretches. I think the idea (speculation disclaimer) is less against the OP and more against the comments an OP can generate. If an OP from another Board that was already slammed by one or two over-zealous commenters, then those commenters might get lash back from people they don't normally interact with, not necessarily intentional fracturing of communities but intentional anti-"melting pot". I think a good example of what I'm trying to say is if one of my SALT posts got moved elsewhere because if its topic, and then people who frequent other Boards may or may not talk this new post with new commenters well.
Personally, I don't really agree with the deleting>moving idea. I mean, I completely understand a precedent being made for something like 90% deletion 10% moving as just a heavy-handed way of doing things. Tight leash to be loosened later kind of mentality. But if a post reaches above a certain amount of discussion that would inevitably be lost by a deletion it warrants a move instead.
Deleting and not moving thinking could work if every deleted post was deleted before much discussion is made and a transcript of the deleted post is provided (which I believe it being done actually, correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm also a realist in the fact that there will be slip ups and posts that get through.
VelGodd2 votes
- moving a forum game that's being taken very seriously to Memes and Games
- A possible forever back and forth movement between champ&skins and LGB
- moving a good OP that was killed by unproductive "pitchfork and torch" discussion to an appropriate Board that isn't used to that (i.e. anything from Misc if GD suddenly migrated)
Those are a few, granted they're mostly stretches. I think the idea (speculation disclaimer) is less against the OP and more against the comments an OP can generate. If an OP from another Board that was already slammed by one or two over-zealous commenters, then those commenters might get lash back from people they don't normally interact with, not necessarily intentional fracturing of communities but intentional anti-"melting pot". I think a good example of what I'm trying to say is if one of my SALT posts got moved elsewhere because if its topic, and then people who frequent other Boards may or may not talk this new post with new commenters well.
Personally, I don't really agree with the deleting>moving idea. I mean, I completely understand a precedent being made for something like 90% deletion 10% moving as just a heavy-handed way of doing things. Tight leash to be loosened later kind of mentality. But if a post reaches above a certain amount of discussion that would inevitably be lost by a deletion it warrants a move instead.
Deleting and not moving thinking could work if every deleted post was deleted before much discussion is made and a transcript of the deleted post is provided (which I believe it being done actually, correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm also a realist in the fact that there will be slip ups and posts that get through.
That's just a dumb reason. There's no reason threads can't be evaluated on a case my case basis, and moved to their appropriate location rather than just deleted. Riot has a ton of staff, and just deleting threads based only on their location being incorrect is just plain lazy.
Sir ArmaMalum2 votesI agree with you, and moderation by definition needs to be done on a case by case basis. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it myself.
Angry Monster1 votesSry Arma, but you are wrong here.
This leads to the path of the old forums. Mods moving things cause they think they belong X instead of Y. We all know how well that worked.
It was the OPs first thread was in the wrong place. (I should know i am one of the guys that reported it). If the OP would of taken 10 minutes to read the rules it would not of been a issue. That said I have reported some Rioter posts to bad those are being protected.
The internet training wheels are finally off. If people are to lazy to read the rules its there fault.
Daen1 votesThis leads to the path of the old forums. Mods moving things cause they think they belong X instead of Y. We all know how well that worked.
The old forums are a bad example. The blanket of 'General Discussion' covers basically everything that can possibly be discussed, so the community naturally migrated there as a whole. Moving things out of GD is roughly equivalent to deletion just because comparatively few people use the other subforums.
If the OP would of taken 10 minutes to read the rules it would not of been a issue.
Use the OP for this thread as an example; out of the given Boards, where would you logically assume the question "Why is there no 'Praise' emote?" should go?
If people are to lazy to read the rules its there fault.
This applies only when the rules are very clear/black and white. Generally speaking, forum rules tend to operate a lot in the grey area so there is a lot of moderator judgement happening. The rules are a great guideline, but it's a bit closed-minded to assume that they are a catch-all and that anyone whose thread gets deleted is breaking them.
Angry Monster1 votesWe want each community to have it’s own unique culture, which makes it important for you to post content in the correct place. Each board has detailed Guidelines that should make clear what’s acceptable, and what’s not.
Moderators of each sub-community will evaluate your post against the Universal Rules and the customized Guidelines set for the official boards. Content that isn't appropriate for the board will be removed.
Taken straight out of the rules. It clearly states that stuff in the wrong section will be removed. Not sure how much clear you want it? In blood maybe? You can argue that it is a bad rule, But breaking them is not going to get them changed.
Daen1 votesThe whole point of this thread is to discuss why the rules are potentially not ideal. Not to say breaking them is fine.
Angry Monster1 votesNo the whole point is that the OP wants to whine and get sympathy. he could of remade the thread. He could of started why i think this rule is not a good one thread. Instead it was a thread i made got closed and not fair.
So the OP is a whinny 13 year old.
It was a good discussion, but Riot deletes it because it's "wrong place"? Wow.
This line shows he is not looking for talking or changes. He is just bitching. He could of gone into reasons he feels this policy is bad. For alternatives tools for OP that accidentally post in wrong section(like the ability to move the thread himself on warning)enabled by the mods cause it is a good thread.
The OP has no new ideas. Just complaints.
Angry Monster1 votesthey are not going to read every post then consider what can and can not work, Follow the guidelines and you will never have an issue.
Daen1 votesExcept that they already do that. When deciding whether to delete a thread, the moderator has to consider whether it is in the wrong place or otherwise has reasons to be deleted. That changes only slightly with moving; now the moderator has to consider whether it is in the wrong place and where it should be.
Ideally it's only one more click (assuming they have robust moderation tools) to move instead of delete, and has a pretty significant benefit on the community.
Angry Monster1 votesNo they read a post and decide if it is in the wrong place. They do not decided it belongs X.
There is a major difference between the two. Your inability to see this is the real issue. The OP knows he put it in the wrong spot. So instead of being an adult and saying well i did not follow the rules, made a complaint thread.
There have been at least 5 different threads about these deletes the day after the new boards came out. People know that they have to post in the correct section.
Daen1 votesHave you read the OP or even Pendragon's reply saying, and I quote, "I'll have to look at this one in particular but it sounds like maybe we shouldn't have deleted it at all."? It really sounds as though you are soapboxing without having actually read the content of this thread.
Angry Monster1 votesNo it sounds like you are white knighting a thread that has no actual value.
This topic should of been under gameplay
Daen1 votesmoving a forum game that's being taken very seriously to Memes and Games
If it's a forum game, it should fit in Memes and Games. It doesn't matter if it's taken seriously, it's still a forum game.
A possible forever back and forth movement between champ&skins and LGB
This would happen regardless of whether it was moved from somewhere else. Besides, to my knowledge it's actually intended for the Champions & Skins section to encompass anything related to champions/skins, including live balance.
moving a good OP that was killed by unproductive "pitchfork and torch" discussion to an appropriate Board that isn't used to that
In my opinion, if it was already killed by unproductive discussion it's...dead. There's no need to move a dead thread.
Tight leash to be loosened later kind of mentality
There's a distinct difference between a tight leash mentality and a nullification of discussion mentality. From my perspective, deleting threads for being in the wrong place is a deterrent to discussion. If the tech allows it, it makes no real sense to not just move it so the OP isn't forced to recreate the thread & commenters aren't ignored.
Deleting and not moving thinking could work if every deleted post was deleted before much discussion is made and a transcript of the deleted post is provided (which I believe it being done actually, correct me if I'm wrong)
I'm not sure how this is being done currently, but from what I've gathered it informs the OP and not people that posted on the thread or were interested in it.
I know I'm beating a dead horse/preaching to the choir/insert cliche here, but generally speaking I'm just a bit concerned with the absolutism in deleting > moving. Moving a thread is a dynamic thing; in the right system, all participants in a given thread are notified of the move and are able to migrate appropriately. A deletion is an absolute; if a thread is completely gone from the Boards there is no way to continue discussion short of the OP remaking it.
Sir ArmaMalum3 votesPersonally I'm 100% with you on that Daen, honestly I'm doing my best to play devil's advocate but I'm running out of maneuvering room from the little knowledge I have on this end of the equation....
Pendragon7 votesWhat we're doing here now is laying the foundation for a lot of longer term efforts. This is something that I think is more controversial now but over time I'm expecting that it will be substantially less so. Fast forwarding into the future - imagine if there are lots more boards than exist today (10x+, 100x, 1000x). You as an individual choose which boards you want to follow or not and each board has a separate moderation team and policy, sometimes to extreme ends.
This means a few things
Really when looking at deleting content we want moderators to ask - should this content be on this board, instead of, "is this content in the right place".
I'll have to look at this one in particular but it sounds like maybe we shouldn't have deleted it at all.
We're still in beta, we're still trying to figure all of this out but that's where our head is at right now.
Daen1 votesInteresting.
I guess I'm just used to a more...cohesive experience, where all the boards feel centralized. I'll be interested to see how it feels to have such distinctly separate discussion areas (sounds very reddit-like in that respect).
Posting something on a very popular board that gets moved to an unpopular board could unduly influence the placement of that piece because it spent a bunch of time getting votes/comments that it maybe shouldn't have gotten
I have to wonder; is that necessarily a bad thing? Let's say someone makes a thread in Champions & Skins that is actually about live balance and some interesting discussion happens between the people that frequent the Champions & Skins board. Would moving that thread with Champions & Skins participants' comments to Live Balance dilute the Live Balance board in any way, or could it actually enhance discussion by bringing in new perspectives?
I'll have to look at this one in particular but it sounds like maybe we shouldn't have deleted it at all.
Will it be possible for the players to request something like this in a more formal way? Moderators can be very well trained and still make mistakes, so it seems important to be able to bring up issues with them.
Pendragon2 votesI have to wonder; is that necessarily a bad thing? Let's say someone makes a thread in Champions & Skins that is actually about live balance and some interesting discussion happens between the people that frequent the Champions & Skins board. Would moving that thread with Champions & Skins participants' comments to Live Balance dilute the Live Balance board in any way, or could it actually enhance discussion by bringing in new perspectives?
That's the scenario that's most in your favor though. Imagine using a old forum example - moving something from "General Discussion" that has a couple of hundred upvotes/omments over to say... in-game HUD discussion where the average post gets 3-5 comments. Basically you have the community from GD deciding what is relevant to community In-Game HUD discussion since it will be higher rated than anything that gets posted on that board.
Will it be possible for the players to request something like this in a more formal way? Moderators can be very well trained and still make mistakes, so it seems important to be able to bring up issues with them.
Tamat & folks do frequent audits and we're not deleting THAT much content right now to be honest... We'll probably want to just address each case as it comes right now and as we have more and more then create a more formal process for it.
Daen2 votesmoving something from "General Discussion" that has a couple of hundred upvotes/omments over to say... in-game HUD discussion where the average post gets 3-5 comments.
To be fair:
Would it be unreasonable to reset the votes on a thread being moved but retain comments?
Tamat & folks do frequent audits and we're not deleting THAT much content right now to be honest... We'll probably want to just address each case as it comes right now and as we have more and more then create a more formal process for it.
Right, but what about from the perspective of the player? It might be accurate internally, but there will always be situations where players want to discuss the reasoning behind a decision or try to appeal for a thread that shouldn't have been deleted. I realize this is a lot of work and would create some noise, but it's just how people function.
Linna Excel2 votesThere won't be a "right" board for every post, and sometimes it will be sensible for a single topic to be in multiple places
For the sake of the argument, what if mods can't agree on something being the right board or not? I mean anything can go in Misc, but I don't think the mods there will be happy if I post everything to there. Plus I'm assuming we want to avoid another GD.
Or let's say there's a common problem with a small group of ADCs. Is that a champions board issue or a gameplay issue? It's theoretically possible for both mods saying "this post doesn't belong here" for equally valid reasons. If effects several champs it is a gameplay issue, however it is more or less specific to a few champs so it is a champions issue. Then compounding the issue the Misc mods are like, put that in champions or gameplay, we've got boards for defined stuff like that.
So I could wind up with an issue where my thread is both technically right and technically wrong for every board I could conceivably post it to.
Daen1 votesThis is a really important concern. What happens to threads that are between the cracks of what the Boards' rules dictate? With totally separate/autonomous moderation staff, it's theoretically possible for there to be certain types of threads that can't be posted without being deleted for being on the wrong board.
Pendragon3 votesYeah - sometimes there may be cases where there's no sensible place for something and we understand that as a gap and we're kind of OK with it for now. Generally though when we think about structure we're trying to get as much coverage as possible with as little overlap as possible so it's still kind of in flux. I think The Champions & Skins and Live Balance split is too unclear and we'll probably address that.
Hyrum Graff1 votesI think ideally the categories should be such that there's a clear place for all content.
Morvrannis2 votesI agree 100% with the OP that data should not be deleted. That brings in the possibility for major cases of abuse from the moderators (at worst) and could hurt the good discussions generated by the community (at best). Already, this thread has started to grow large so this is something that people are worried about.
I have a different suggestion - why not add a feature in where a moderator can "flag" a post as not being on the appropriate topic and asks the user to replace it in the appropriate forum? At least, that way, the user can choose how to replace their content and the discussion still stays active? Both parties would win in this case (and other forums already have similar tactics)?
Another option is to do what the StackExchange sites do - have community moderation and make the up and downvotes worth points/credibility which gives more powers. Granted, SE is more of a question/answer website - not a discussion site - but I believe similar principles can apply if the community self-moderates. (One of the moderations is, "This discussion does not belong here." and then the discussion will be moved to wherever the community decides.)
Last thought - a Miscellaneous Board is a bad thing, IMO. When you create a Miscellaneous Board, you do two things. First, if you don't have enough other boards, you're creating a dumping ground for "everything else." That makes for a messy board which has no real definition of what goes there. On the other hand, you force yourself to have to create boards for EVERYTHING (Why not a board about Garen? And Teemo? And...etc, etc.) which means Miscellaneous is very unnecessary and those other boards are too thinly spread. It would likely be better to come up with a more cohesive and comprehensive board list. (Find someone with mad organizational skills and who likes things neat and tidy.)
I appreciate what you've done here with the Boards so far. I hope to help make these better! Thanks!
Pendragon2 votesI have a different suggestion - why not add a feature in where a moderator can "flag" a post as not being on the appropriate topic and asks the user to replace it in the appropriate forum? At least, that way, the user can choose how to replace their content and the discussion still stays active? Both parties would win in this case (and other forums already have similar tactics)?
Content is not actually "deleted" now. The content is de-listed and remains viewable to the author. The author also receives a link in moderator notification for the deleted content in case they don'th ave the link.
Another option is to do what the StackExchange sites do - have community moderation and make the up and downvotes worth points/credibility which gives more powers. Granted, SE is more of a question/answer website - not a discussion site - but I believe similar principles can apply if the community self-moderates. (One of the moderations is, "This discussion does not belong here." and then the discussion will be moved to wherever the community decides.)
Over time I'll expect that communities of a given board will become more and more distinct, and you would not want another board deciding what content to place on your board. We're generally a huge fan of more insular self-regulation though.
Miscellaneous is very unnecessary and those other boards are too thinly spread. It would likely be better to come up with a more cohesive and comprehensive board list. (Find someone with mad organizational skills and who likes things neat and tidy.)
We recognize that our current set of boards is not comprehensive, and that's intentional. We want to condense players right now as we grow and we'll expect to spread out when the existing boards require more nuanced content distribution.
Daen1 votesThe content is de-listed and remains viewable to the author.
Is there any particular reason this functionality is not available to all players that participated in the content?
Hyrum Graff1 votesDistinct boards, self-regulating
What if the individual communities decided, "this content doesn't belong here," but it was up to the OP to move their post to a new board?
darkdill1 votesHere's the topic in question, Pendragon: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/1ba4bKsU-reddit-topic-why-do-champions-have-a-taunt-and-a-laugh-action-but-not-a-praise
That should help you decide.
Hyrum Graff1 votesThere won't be a "right" board for every post, and sometimes it will be sensible for a single topic to be in multiple places
Agreed; This is an argument in favor of tags.
Silverclaw4 votesThey don't want people to start making threads in any forum because 'it'll be moved". It encourages bad behaviour. I think there are other reasons as well, but that's the one that sticks out to me.
Daen1 votesI see your premise. That being said, why would any reasonable poster intentionally put their thread in the wrong place? There are very clear systems in place allowing players to post in the correct area.
Someone intending to put more work on the moderators could just as easily make a troll thread anywhere or make useless posts. A deletion only differs from a move when the thread still conforms to general Board guidelines. This system of deletion for threads that still have valid discussion basically only affects legitimate content that might happen to be misplaced. It almost feels like a punishment, and it's borderline a breach of trust in the community's ability to regulate itself.
Phoenix Kotori 1 votesThat being said, why would any reasonable poster intentionally put their thread in the wrong place?
Laziness is a powerful motivation.
Daen1 votesIt's equally easy to put a thread in the correct place as it is to put it in the wrong place.
nosafterburn2 votesMy one complaint with the deletion of threads is why delete threads that are reporting bugs. I reported a bug last night about the Lightbringer item (as well as the Wicked Hatchet item) not being purchasable in ARAM and how i saw nothing about it being disabled or anything. I posted it in Live Gameplay Balance since I found the bug during a live ARAM game. I logged in this morning to find the thread deleted with the alert telling me to repost it in the Help & Support section. I did finally report it , but I played another ARAM game before I did to see if maybe it was still bugged. It was. Why do bug reports get deleted? Shouldn't they be something that is considered important enough to move?
Angry Monster1 votesread the rules.