Community Go-ers, Lets Real Talk.

BallisticMouse·Jan 7, 2015·16 votes·4,180 views

Every once and awhile I see a thread about how Riot doesn't include themselves enough on board discussions, honestly I agree whole heart-edly, but does anyone think that even a slight add-on to the reason they dont is the pure hatred mostly every thing they say gets?

For example, I seen many posts saying they should tell us why Sona was being nerfed. A day later I see a Riot member explain it and everything he said was in the negatives. He was polite, nice and explained it very thoroughly and had literally no reason to be voted down.

All i'm trying to say it, just because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean you have to hate it. Explain, just as thoroughly as them, why you think the changes don't work and move on. Maybe even vote them up for actually involving themselves.

Thoughts?

25 Comments

Sir FrosthavenJan 8, 20156 votes

It's a fun exercise in thought, really!

To me, community reaction can be analogous to a rushing river. You can stand on the side lines and predict the way it will flow to some degree, but it's in the swimming that you truly experience it.

As someone who started from within the community I usually stay relatively active (whether it's important conversation on boards software or discussing what a potion tastes like). There is certainly some mental checks I consider before posting - "is this something I actually know about?", "How will this be perceived?". Placing a comment on a post brings a lot of extra attention to it as a rioter. I do not work on champion designs for instance, so I won't be posting to those comments (lest I be forever quoted as the oracle of "but he said!". As a personal rule I also avoid topics that can blow up in my face such as race, gender, religion etc.)

Yes, it's like a rushing river indeed. Every river has it's rocks, but the swim can be an eye opening one. Passionate players and passionate staff make for an unforgettable community - one that I'm proud to be a part of.

DrCyanideJan 8, 20151 votes

Do you or other Rioters you know have smurf accounts for posting when you don't want to be treated as an official source? I suspect there are a few that want to be more involved in some discussions without having the Rioter effect on a post.

Sir FrosthavenJan 8, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Do you or other Rioters you know have smurf accounts for posting when you don't want to be treated as an official source? I suspect there are a few that want to be more involved in some discussions without having the Rioter effect on a post.

I myself do not have any smurfs. I've always sort of had this personal opinion that "This is me, this is who I am, and I will be no other". I can't speak for others because I simply do not know, but it's possible!

Daughter of NoxJan 9, 20152 votes

Do Riot employees have to complete a training course that teaches them how to interact with the playerbase, or is that just rumors?

Sir FrosthavenJan 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=GoR Hecate,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=4QL3ete6,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-01-09T15:57:18.891+0000)

Do Riot employees have to complete a training course that teaches them how to interact with the playerbase, or is that just rumors?

Absolutely! It's just what you would expect it to be as far as not leaking information, be respectful, etc etc. Pretty cool way to get your feet wet imo! We have a very different culture where we're given the guidelines but still allowed to be ourselves (which I run with quite often...)

Daughter of NoxJan 8, 20153 votes

As representatives of Riot, employees have to be extremely careful when posting on the boards. I am pretty sure that there is actually a training course that all Riot employees undergo that teaches them how to properly interact with the community. While communication with the playerbase is encouraged, it is not required. With all of that being said, I feel that no matter how politely-worded or thorough an explanation may be, if people are upset about something, they are going to be upset. And--usually--they will take that frustration out on you, since you're the only one who can, in their eyes, change anything. (Which isn't even always the case, since there are so many different departments within Riot.) By the way, I know which thread you're talking about.

Players didn't downvote his post because he was impolite or something like that, they did it simply because they didn't like the content of his message. A dagger wrapped in silk is still a dagger. And I am sure many people felt as though that dagger wrapped in silk was plunged into their back when Sona got nerfed.

DaenJan 8, 20152 votes

As representatives of Riot, employees have to be extremely careful when posting on the boards. While communication with the playerbase is encouraged, it is not required. With all of that being said, I feel that no matter how politely-worded or thorough an explanation may be, if people are upset about something, they are going to be upset. And--usually--they will take that frustration out on you, since you're the only one who can, in their eyes, change anything.

In your opinion, how should Riot handle situations where people are upset? Do you feel there is a need for Rioters to be on eggshells when discussing tough issues with the community?

Daughter of NoxJan 8, 20153 votes

Haha. Very carefully. Angry gamers are vicious. In all seriousness, Riot should explain the situation in a polite and thorough manner, whatever it may be. (This is usually what they do anyways.) Words don't really mean much, however. Actions are more important. And gamers are going to jump down the throats of any Riot employee as long as they're frustrated enough, no matter how polite they come off. For the second question, yes and no. Yes, because you're representing a company and one wrong move or miswording could get you fired. No, because your words are meaningless to a pack of feral gamers.

DaenJan 8, 20151 votes

This seems a bit closed-minded to me, and I worry sometimes that this is also the mentality Riot has here.

Angry gamers are vicious.

Gamers are people. The vast majority of people don't decide to be vicious or angry when something doesn't go their way, it's just not how society functions. You can argue that internet anonymity changes things, but it should not be completely changing human nature. Could you imagine if the kinds of things we do in our community happened in real, civilized life? It would be catastrophic, and the vast majority of people wouldn't want to be a part of it.

This begs the question: Why does League of Legends' community, specifically, have the perception of consistent roiling anger when it's still just a society like any other? What factor is present in this community that is not present in others, and why are reactions handled so differently here? More importantly, how accurate is the claim that our community is generally vicious, rather than a few outliers tainting the water, so to speak?

gamers are going to jump down the throats of any Riot employee as long as they're frustrated enough, no matter how polite they come off.

Why? Does this happen in real life? What generally has to happen in order to cause the amount of frustration that would force reasonable people to lash out in their everyday lives?

Basically, I'm trying to get at the root causes here. Why are players so frustrated in this scenario? What on earth has happened that made them feel so neglected and need to lash out just to get any attention or things to happen?

one wrong move or miswording could get you fired

If this were actually Riot's policy, no one would be ever communicating with the players. Extraordinary circumstances have resulted in fires (TheBeard, for example), but minor missteps or even relatively more significant things like the Opeli conversation don't (to my knowledge) necessarily result in Riot rejecting their employees. That would be terrible business, especially for a company that tries to cater to the playerbase.

your words are meaningless to a pack of feral gamers.

I'm confused as to why you are insinuating that a community of normal people all coming together over something they love becomes a rabid pit of death. There is a catalyst here. People don't just decide that they are going to collectively be jerks (simplified, this does happen in certain circumstances as per tests like the Stanford Prison Experiment). A group of people participating in something they all enjoy should not be resulting in this type of behavior, so what's going on?

DrCyanideJan 9, 20152 votes

More often than not, it seems like a Riot Employee gets down voted into oblivion in one of the following scenarios:

They say something that flies in the face of what players think of as previously defined policy. (Example: Sona nerfs going through regardless)
They introduce something that doesn't seem thought out. (Example: Leaver-Buster update)
They repeat a statement which players no longer believe is true. (Example: East Coast ping is being worked on)

I'm struggling to think of a situation that doesn't fit into these general categories, so lets look at them more.

In the case of the Sona Nerfs, several user perceptions were challenged. The first was that the PBE is a way to gain player feedback. The second was that if the player base showed significant disapproval of a change, it going live would at least be delayed until it was looked into more (the Lee Sin changes are commonly sited in this context). Players were told in no uncertain terms that the nerfs to Sona on the PBE right now are going through no matter what. Players lashed out because they felt cheated, betrayed, lied to, etc.
Players were told that they were going to get a pop up telling them not to be leavers, it was only a matter of time. Players who got the warning message know that it reads more like a contractual agreement, one that implies you will never have internet issues, computer issues, family require you unexpectedly, etc. ever again. Furthermore, issues with Riots servers may or may not be counted against you. Many players felt like they were made out to be the bad guy, even though they never did anything wrong. Being accused tends to make people react in a different way than they otherwise would.
I love this example right now because it shows how drastically things change. Back in October, Riot said they were going to be updating the servers were they were in November, then trying to make deals with ISP's, then eventually in the nebulous future they'd move the servers. East Coast players have been listening to the "we're working on it" for years, and this looked to them like another slap in the face. It felt like the same lies, and I'm sure many players thought "Riot must think we're the most gulibile people alive". Fast forward to a few days ago, when Riot detailed what they were doing with the ISP's. Suddenly, Riot detailed enough of what was going on that players could piece together for themselves why the steps were happening in the order they were. Many more Riot upvotes on that one.

DaenJan 9, 20151 votes

Generally speaking, I agree. I think there's this huge gaping divide between how the community is perceived and how we actually act, and it's actually really concerning. We as a community do occasionally go off the rails and start really becoming asses, but there is always a catalyst. Here are some examples:

With the Opeli incident in lore, for example, the issue wasn't necessarily what she said; it was the fact that the lore community had been neglected for literally years and the first real conversation from Riot about it was relatively flippant.

With the huge backlash in the announcement of Dominion a few years ago, the issue wasn't the release of new content; it was the fact Riot overhyped it (without giving any information as to the true intent) to the point of everyone thinking their fantasies about new feature additions were about to be fulfilled and Riot completely crushed all of that with the release announcement.

What do these and your examples have in common? They stemmed from one of two main factors:

Riot making decisions with ineffective communication and/or disregard for community perception.
Riot having long periods of ineffective communication followed by the dam bursting.

If we really look at this, these factors cause the same emotional response: Not feeling heard. Which big community backlash problems have happened that can't be directly attributed to this?

We've seen this happen in even relatively minor situations. There have been numerous threads in Boards Feedback where the community is desperate to talk with Riot about communication pathways, and whenever a Rioter happens to post in the thread things blow up. Why? Is it because the community just wants to drive Rioters away, or is it because people feel like it's their only chance to be heard so they dump their thoughts and feelings there?

This stuff really concerns me. It's as though so many people have no understanding of the situation, on both sides. Rioters have literally publicly said they are scared or nervous to communicate with us. This is not acceptable, both from Riot's perspective and ours.

The unfortunate thing is that this is incredibly difficult to discuss with Riot. The communications teams rarely, well, communicate on the Boards, and they are the only ones with the knowledge and expertise to have good dialogue in this regard. Vodmor, for example, came into a thread and created some good dialogue. When people started pouring out their concerns, however, he peaced out. I doubt it's because he didn't want to be there, but rather he can't accurately answer those questions because it's not within his purview. Why is the thread suddenly dead after that rather than someone who knows what they are talking about stepping in to address things?

Anyway, this got a bit ranty towards the end. TLDR: I care deeply about this community, but the lack of understanding we all have here is causing even more problems than the actions on both sides ever could. We need to be comfortable discussing things like communication with each other, and we can't do this if people just assume that the community is fucked.

Daughter of NoxJan 9, 20151 votes

To reiterate Daen's point, I had always heard rumors about the horrible community in League. While he seems to hold the view that they are unfounded, I have to disagree. I wish I could say that the rumors were false, however, they tend to be underwhelming imo. Also, I just wanted to point out that this is an issue in-game and on the boards.

I know, in certain cases, there are valid reasons that lead to such behavior, but a large amount of it can be chalked up to people simply acting like asshats. While there are exceptions, especially here on the boards, I feel like the culture of League is a culture rife with toxicity and unsavory behavior. Also, in most games that I have played, only a small percentage of the playerbase uses the forums/boards. So, we can't except players who use the boards to be representative of the demographics of League.

Does that mean that we can't change the community for the better? Of course not! Personally, I try to be positive and cooperative in-game as well as while on the posting on the boards. However, I must be genuine or I am not really helping anything. And here is my genuine opinion: I, for one, do not believe that the community is fucked in the slightest, but, if you will excuse the outworn adage, 'The first step to solving an issue is admitting that you have one.'

DaenJan 9, 20151 votes

While he seems to hold the view that they are unfounded, I have to disagree

My view is that the reason for the community's reputation is mis-attributed, not that the reputation is unfounded. A large population of well-adjusted people does not morph into an angry mob without stimuli. The Boards community is likely not a representative sample, as you mentioned. It is probably a certain demographic rather than an accurate spread due to the medium, but I can't say for sure without data.

Anyway, I agree with you. I just think we're diagnosing the problem from completely the wrong angle, and it feels like we're missing the actual crux of the issue.

Daughter of NoxJan 10, 20151 votes

Yes, well, I just wanted to say that we're working towards the same goal. I, much like you, would like to see this community change for the better. Admittedly, I am rather new around here and I am not sure about how everything works yet, but I think if we had more players like yourself and I, who were willing to have a discussion about the issues, we would be much better off.

Love and hugs, Hecate

Daughter of NoxJan 9, 20151 votes

I believe it comes down to the pessimistic way that I view humans in general. I don't consider myself close-minded at all, however, as I am always willing to entertain new viewpoints. However, I am just speaking from my experiences, which are not limited to observing the interaction between Riot employees and the LoL playerbase.

Hilltop SunsetJan 7, 20151 votes

I hate it it sucks.

.....(get it?)

HowPlayGAEMJan 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For example, I seen many posts saying they should tell us why Sona was being nerfed. A day later I see a Riot member explain it and everything he said was in the negatives. He was polite, nice and explained it very thoroughly and had literally no reason to be voted down.

All i'm trying to say it, just because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't mean you have to hate it. Explain, just as thoroughly as them, why you think the changes don't work and move on. Maybe even vote them up for actually involving themselves.

Thoughts?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but c'mon, the guy asked why Sona's W and E felt less impactful. FFS, those two skills were MASSIVELY nerfed in the rework, and someone remotely associated with balance being clueless about the relatively recent nerfs is NOT something I will upvote.

His comment about Sona being perceived as weak is also a red flag, since the purpose of the rework was to make her power "visible"; if only Riot's magic data harvesters can gauge her massively OP status and deduce a movespeed nerf, then something is very wrong. If Riot's magic data harvesters were so good, abuse cases from the past would have been quashed before they even arose; instead we got Alistair.

So no, I will not hesitate to downvote a Rioter for ignorance of massive nerfs and vague shoddy explanations. An upvote or downvote is earned, and their employee status does not make them special in that regard.

For example, Riot building its own network = upvote. Riot deleting its old lore and having nothing new to replace it with = downvote. Riot's refund policy = massive downvote. Riot Kateykhaos = upvote. Cass rework = downvote. Soraka rework = upvote.

Simple. Their feelings or PR-speak is irrelevant.

Bloodstone67Jan 9, 20151 votes

Doyou think it is in anyway unfair that people get reported by the truly toxic players just because they point out the fact that said player isnt even attempting to be a team player?

Daughter of NoxJan 10, 20151 votes

Of course it is unfair, especially if that player gets punished for simply pointing something like that out. I am not sure how the tribunal handles reports, but I do sincerely hope that they at least read through the chat logs before deciding who deserves punishment. To be on the safe side, you really shouldn't tell them anything. Mute chat if possible. If you must say something, try to make it sound like a positive tip. I know it is difficult sometimes, but maybe the person you're addressing just needs a gentle nudge in the right direction.

Bloodstone67Jan 14, 20151 votes

Maybe they should make an unedited Q for ppl that enjoy harassing and messing with other players I have just been chat banned for 28 games due to whiners and unskilled players that use profanity but get mad when called cowards ....really how bout an adults only Q

DaenJan 14, 20151 votes

I disagree. I see no value in allowing people to basically queue up and be jerks to each other; if you find yourself unable to stop getting chat banned, it might be time to find a different game.

Bloodstone67Jan 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. I see no value in allowing people to basically queue up and be jerks to each other; if you find yourself unable to stop getting chat banned, it might be time to find a different game.

well its funny that the one cussing me are the ones that dont get banned while i do so maybe my point does have some merit ,because unlike them i realize its a game , we arent playing ranked just normal Q

DaenJan 15, 20151 votes

its funny that the one cussing me are the ones that dont get banned while i do

How do you know they aren't getting banned?
Regardless of what happens to the other person/persons involved, you are getting punished. There is only one person responsible for that, and it's you. Change your behavior or it will keep happening, regardless of whether the other guy gets punished.

Bloodstone67Jan 21, 20151 votes

Because most of the time I just let it go and play again ,Its a game to enjoy and if these ppl get off on reporting ppl so what its just sad that they have to report ppl for pointing out the obvious to them then they cuss and moan and I get chat restricted for just playful remarks .