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Gripes

Goldoak··7 votes·1,768 views

Hi! I'm not a really big forum user, but this format is making my head hurt and I wanted to lay out my troubles while we're still experimenting.

To begin with, I should note that my primary use case centers around the devtracker; my bookmarks go directly to it, I scan for threads by red posters that I try to keep up on, topics that seem relevant to me, read largely just the red posts, the posts immediately around them for context and any quoted material, plus some responses to that quoted material. I may or may not skim GD thereafter.

I'm fundamentally against nested commentary as the default state; I frequent many forums and view each thread less as a conversation and more as complete document. Nesting makes me constantly afraid that I'm missing information, and worse leaves me feeling lost without a consistent conversational thread to follow. The only time I find the nesting setup useful is when the conversation turns to a back and forth between specific members of a given community instead of a general commentary on a topic. Usually opening up a couple tabs to follow a series of quotes back handles the situation well enough, but I could see a case for segregating that conversation out and following it up individually. I can't follow and don't see any value in following more than two people engaged in a back and forth discussion simultaneously. If a piece of text is quoted for direct response by more than one party, each separate discussion thereafter merits its own tab.

I actually quite like the proposed voting system as a general filter for both topics and individual posts, and I can understand the need for some kind of self-moderation given the huge scope of the community we're dealing with. I don't, however, want to lose the benefit of linearity through such a system. Highlighting entire discussions based on their vote totals and/or some algorithm of the votes on individual posts inside them is useful and I would be happy to use a "most popular" or "most discussed" or what have you view of forum, provided I have some way to prioritize looking at new content when I'm done with whatever is tracking best. Inside each discussion, I get incredibly lost without a linear setup, but I'd love some way to filter out the "noise." On the smaller forums I frequent, that just means knowing who to put on your ignore list, but a voting system that hid irrelevant or pointlessly brief content while still showing a comment had been made would be useful.

Nesting aside, I'm not a big fan of a tagging system instead of separate room approach I'm used to, but it's not a big deal. I am confused as to why those tags are sitting beside the text of the lines instead of above or below them. Putting the search and sub-community control panels there eats up enormous amounts of screen real-estate and awkwardly shuffles the text over to the left. Moving that panel to the top of the screen and possibly rolling all the "sub-communities" into a dropdown menu, (perhaps with checkboxes to really take advantage of tagging) and then expanding the discussion space out to the right would help quite a bit.

Finally, I'd really like individual posters to be better called out. Larger avatars would help, as would a stronger boilerplate for each post. Perhaps an underline separating it from the content?

13 Comments

Seriphym4 votes

I was hoping for a nice laid out forum format, that has a very tangible chronological discussion feel.

All I got was a continuous fractal, of a never ending news-ticker reel.

It honestly must be nice if your a frikken programmer and this stuff is all common knowledge but I am betting most of your playerbase is not.

There is a reason I never use reddit. It is complete and utter biased trash. Nothing but clippings of something that happened and the majority keep upvoting it.

Now if this is to become an "optional" format in addition to the regular forums. Cool! I have no problem with the same information being provided to other individuals who actually process information into their brain in a different manner than I do.

What I do have an issue with is the new format "replacing" the old format which my brain processes easier.

ploki1223 votes

Well, they said in the past that the plan was for both communities to coexist. Now whether it's by having "communities" digest /r/leagueoflegends, or by offering the standard vBulletin format as well as the current Reddit-like format as 2 different display modes.

One thing for sure, there are 2 kind of discussions that arise up to now (and I've been on the communities since early PBE days, when there was still less than 1 page of threads). The first one is like yours, and OP's, where people bring exactly what they dislike about this system, and what was on the old vBulletin system to replace that. The other one, like headhunter's (and slightly your) is free hate tainted with why Reddit is bad and why devs should die for trying this.

Now, let's go further into the discussion of why this way of diplaying information is bad... you say that all you have is a continuous fractal of never-ending reel. First of all, how is that truly different from vBulletin where you have like 6 pages of replies (and self-bumps), and in this Reddit-style, you have 1 page, as long as ~5 pages of text, with the most relevant information (in most cases) up top. The main difference (except for the disincentivizing of bumps) is that there are no "page" separation.

as for chronological ordering, pretty sure that there is a sort that is "Recent" which does exactly that...

RiotKrylhos4 votes

Thanks! You've brought up some great points in your post.

I'd like to take this as an opportunity to express that we will be experimenting with combining both a nested view and a flat view for posts within a discussion.

Likely, we'll start with providing the option on a per-community level (as it is critical for successful RP threads or forum games)

For your identity concern - We're really trying to call out the content more than the creator. That being said, what do you think of the profile card each player has (you can see it when you put your mouse over someone's name, and keep it there for about a second)? We recently brought over certain groups within vBulletin, such as Council, Wrenchmen, Huntsmen, Adjudicators and Emissaries. We also brought over earned titles (such as from Refer a Friend) and season 1 and 2 ranked badges.

Goldoak1 votes

That is very good to hear. I'm excited to see how the format plays without nesting.

The box you're talking about is alright, but I'd rather have the information at a glance in the general flow of conversation. The problem right now is that the poster's tagline blurs into the text of the post itself, especially when I'm skimming and it makes the whole thread feel wall of text-y. Calling out the bylines with specifically demarcated spaces breaks the conversation up into more manageable chunks and makes it easier for me to adjust my mental breakdown of the dialogue into a different "voice" for the speaker.

I'm probably speaking a little bit just from habit, but this part of the formatting is really throwing off my pacing. Something as simply as a light underline beneath the author's name and the content of his post would help.

In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, that blurring together of all the content into a single mass is probably the primary source of my dissatisfaction with this setup. A little more graphical separation of the posts might help in general. I was just flicking back to the "my updates page" and reflecting that the borders separating the posts there would really help break up the concentration of posts in a live conversation feed.

This might be exactly the opposite of what you're going for with your focus on the content. I'm really concerned with making each post feel like a separate event with its own voice while this whole move seems to be about treating each conversation as a continuous stream of information.

Goldoak2 votes

Expanding, as I play around more: I'm having trouble using the internal redtracker in each thread. My instinct is to open a separate tab for each comment I want to jump to so I can scan the nearby conversation for context. This doesn't currently seem to work.

I've seen this particularly comment before, but the dynamic preview is distracting and unnecessary. I'd prefer my reply text simply be larger to begin with and I do miss a conventional formatting overlay.

RiotKrylhos2 votes

Thanks Goldoak. You've brought up some great points.

We are planning on rolling out a "hide" to the live preview so you don't have to have it present at all times. It probably should have been there to begin with!

To your frustrations with the red tracker, there will be some serious visual updates coming out for this based on feedback from players (such as yourself). There is currently an option to show the parent of that post, as well as being able to go directly to that post in the larger discussion thread. Do those options not provide you ways to gain context on the post?

Goldoak1 votes

I may have been unclear. The redtracker itself is fine, I'm not having any particular trouble using it. I'm talking about the "rioter comments" box to the right of any thread with red posts. The "jump to this comment" link causes the current thread to jump around and that is incredibly disorienting. I'd much prefer to use it to open a new tab centered on the comment.

On the topic of live previews, have you considered changing the entry text box to more closely resemble the output in the first place? Unless someone is using formatting, if you just retained the text size and font, you'd end up with all the benefit of a live preview in half the space. You could enable a separate preview or the option to show a preview (perhaps with a hotkey) once a poster has used a formatting option that will change the currently previewed outcome.

Goldoak1 votes

On the topic of the feature actually labelled Red Tracker, I'm not sure of the relative value of the show parent buttons. Take this comment of yours. Once a back and forth reply chain begins, it might drop down several levels while still relying on the immediately previous level for context. I think this is bad on two levels. Firstly, that context could easily be shattered if anyone started to add replies to a level somewhere in the middle of the discourse, and any outside links or tools that can only go up one parent level don't provide much help without visiting the whole thread to begin with.

I'm not sure how to solve those problems.

SlumlordThanatos2 votes

Don't even bother. I've given up trying to get Riot to understand that the problems with the Beta lie at the very foundation of what they are trying to make.

So, in order to fix it, they need to make DRASTIC changes, and they've sunk too much time and effort into these forums to give us anything else.

I suppose my time as a member of this community is coming to a close.

ploki1221 votes

Or maybe you could've spent a little time to understand their point that this isn't replacing the old forum, but staying in parallel

SlumlordThanatos2 votes

Except that Pendragon stated that he fully intends to eventually have the Community site replace the forum, provided he can work around the many gripes we have and gets it to work. He says as much in the stickied thread at the top of the Community page.

ploki1221 votes

Did he? That appeared after the last time I checked them I guess ><.

Just consider my other message void then...

ploki1221 votes

Actually, he said "Maybe one day", and that he can't support that strongly.

So in an ideal case, yes. But as long a more than like 1-5% of the community prefer the forum I don't believe that they will ditch it.

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