Hot Sorting

Hyrum Graff·Aug 7, 2014·3 votes·3,756 views

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but currently it appears like the "Hot" sorting is based on some combination of the following factors.

Votes
Replies
Time since posting

I'm concerned that this gives "Hot" an unfair bias towards threads that are posted during peak hours. I'll elaborate:

If a post is made, say, at 1pm EST, which is generally a lull, it stays on the front page for a while, because there aren't many people making posts that would drive it off. However, when people start coming online and making posts, it gets pushed off the home page very quickly, because it's already several hours old and its 'newness' is no longer enough to outcompete the super-new, or the old, but high-vote, high-activity threads, given the influx of competition for the front page.

By contrast, a thread created at primetime gets longer time on the home page during the peak of the day, because its newness can outcompete the old-popular threads.

It makes me wonder whether both threads are getting similar levels of visibility given all other metrics are the same. Could you also add in a "# of view" metric to determine how long a thread stays on the front page of "Hot" for?

Cheers, Hyrum Graff

11 Comments

DaenAug 7, 20141 votes

I'm not sure if this is something that can be solved, to be honest. The high-level direction of the platform seems to be allowing activity to be the main metric for visibility, and more activity will naturally happen during peak hours. Let's theorize this is in fact a problem; what would you suggest as a solution?

It's been said a few times that the goal is to allow players to individually select what they want to see and what they don't. I have yet to see how this will be implemented, but it might address your concern... shrugs

# of views metric

I think this has been discussed briefly, there's a pro and a con there. Being able to see view counts could be a decent indicator of interest, but it could also bias thread participants before even entering a thread. What are your thoughts on that?

Hyrum GraffAug 7, 20142 votes

# views metric

I don't think this should be visible to the general public. I don't see much harm in showing it to the OP. Nor do I see any harm in using it to regulate front page time.

PendragonAug 7, 20142 votes

I'm not sure if this is something that can be solved, to be honest. The high-level direction of the platform seems to be allowing activity to be the main metric for visibility, and more activity will naturally happen during peak hours. Let's theorize this is in fact a problem; what would you suggest as a solution?

That's not necessarily true. We're not doing this right now - but consider activity density as a potential variable. Of people who view a thread, how many of them are engaging. A +200, 10k view thread with 500 comments could be higher than a +200, 100k thread w/ 500 comments

I think there are a few other ways to slice it. Ultimately we have to look at what it means for content to be successful (clickthrough, readthrough, engagement), what variables influence those variables (topical/content, votes, comments, time, whatever, board/context), and weigh variables appropriately.

Then we can get into fun philosophical debates about if would rather more people read but not comment or vote, or less people read, but greater percentage of comments and votes, etc. Also things like... are the comments a lot of people each commenting a little, or a few people each commenting a lot!

DaenAug 7, 20142 votes

Of people who view a thread, how many of them are engaging. A +200, 10k view thread with 500 comments could be higher than a +200, 100k thread w/ 500 comments

Interesting. Consider the following:

+100 upvotes | 2,000 views | 200 comments
5% upvoted, 10% commented
+200 upvotes | 2,000 views | 100 comments
10% upvoted, 5% commented
+500 upvotes | 5,000 views | 50 comments
10% voted, 1% commented
+50 upvotes | 5,000 views | 500 comments
1% voted, 10% commented
+1000 upvotes | 100,000 views | 500 comments
1% voted, 0.5% commented

The first two have the highest percentage of active participation but the lowest views and upvotes, the middle two have either high upvotes or high comments, and the last has the lowest percentage of active participation but the highest views and upvotes. Which should be most visible?

Thunder DreamssAug 7, 20141 votes

I think the real bugaboo is that you have different kinds of threads.

Discussion threads are those where people should be actively reading and responding. The purpose of the thread is to discuss some topic and as such % comments should be more important as it indicates the engagement people have with the discussion.

Presentation threads are a whole different game. Threads showing off fan art, guides, or other material for consumption are a means to distribute one way communication. The better the art the more up votes and up votes should be the primary metric of their success. There's not much to say about a beautiful paining of the Rift but if it's +200 chances are lots of people think you should look at this to.

CupcakeTrapAug 8, 20141 votes

These types of threads could be distinguished. (Compare: Reddit's text-post vs. link-post system.) Personally, though I'm not sure why, I kind of like the idea of doing away with link-posts as a separate category.

Alternatively, one could argue that r/lol already handles the presentation threads.

Thunder DreamssAug 8, 20141 votes

By presentation post I mean things like this. Every reason to be on these boards but the behavior that indicates a good presentation thread is different than a discussion thread. There's not much to say and what people do say is mostly just single comments, not responses to one another.

If you add replies to the metric for a good post then these posts will be handicapped. On the other hand number of replies and depth of nesting are good, perhaps better, metrics to judge a discussion thread by.

For example, the thread I linked has +30 compared to this threads +3 but I'd argue this thread is no less valuable. The value of this thread is in the discussion while the value of the other thread is all in the OP.

CupcakeTrapAug 7, 20141 votes

I continue to strongly advocate a role for variables such as comments or number of unique users who have posted. I figure it should probably be a secondary role, but it should enter into the equation.

PendragonAug 8, 20142 votes

Yeah for sure. I think the trick is to see what behavior that influences then we can know how significant it is

CupcakeTrapAug 8, 20141 votes

I really appreciate that you're taking the time to rethink the core Reddit mechanics and adapt them to be more suitable for a discussion board.

One thing I've been thinking about lately: why not have downvotes be worth fewer points than upvotes? I wrote a short post on it here. I can see pros and cons, but overall, I feel that upvotes and downvotes are distinct phenomena connected to distinct problems ("kitten pix to the top" vs. "I disagree so nobody should see this") and warrant distinct treatment.

Hyrum GraffAug 11, 20141 votes

Whoa, I totally missed this.