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State of the Game with Meddler, Zirene and more

Riot··5 votes·34,504 views

Welcome to another episode of the Patch Rundown, a series where expert analysts and developers give you an inside take on the biggest changes heading into the game each and every patch.

This week, we’re taking a break from talking patch-to- patch as we check in with Lead Designers Andrei ‘Meddler’ Van Roon, Jo ‘Fearless’ Graylock and caster/analyst Aidan ‘Zirene’ Moon to get their thoughts on League’s current state as well as where the game is heading!


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You can also find the podcast on iTunes or Stitcher, or check out past episodes here!

185 Comments

World Ender65 votes

TL;DL: Still long but it's not an hour [slayer-jinx-wink]

-Overall, the team is happy with the Mid-Season update and how it helped shift power around with mages and mage items, but there may be some outliers that need changes.

-Neutral Objectives (3:30): Dragons are in a good spot after some of the buffs and nerfs, they are impactful and exciting, except for maybe Cloud Drake. Herald has a much better niche than before and feels more useful than a mini Baron. Baron itself is a bit low in power and focused on less. May see changes, as it gives temporary strategic power for against objectives and for sieging, something Ocean and Mountain Drake are now doing permanently. More teamfights around Dragons somewhat removes the need to take Baron, teams can just end after a Dragon fight. Risk/reward of Dragon may be too shallow, losing a Dragon doesn't mean much, losing Baron is game changing.

-Mage Reworks (12:10): Measured in two ways: distinctiveness vs. healthiness. Vlad was already distinct, but needed changes to be healthier. Succeeded somewhat, but still not in the best spot. How is distinctiveness measured? How a champion changes the game, i.e. focus on early game or late game, what objectives, what powerspikes, playstyles, etc. Old Darius and Garen, Diana and Akali, old Graves and Lucian etc. are good examples of too much similarity. MYMU tried to make a champions more distinct, succeeded pretty much (except Vel'Koz).

-Itemization Changes (17:50): New items were aimed at just giving more options and facilitating differences (give tanky mages more options than just ROA, etc). Eliminate issues of Athene's vs. Morello's stat checking and focus more on variety. Hextech line was an experiment to see if certain items could be given clear strengths and distinctiveness, a lot like Zeal crit items.

-Supports (23:00): Support gold and exp. Stronger catch up exp. Supports and Junglers are "low income classes," but this is not healthy currently. Kill gold vs. minion gold, minions are worth so much gold and denying minions through killing is worth more than kills. Junglers and supports are not as impactful as laners, and this needs to be fixed. How to balance support items' low cost with its impactfulness so laners don't abuse it? Gold has too much of an impact in the game for two classes to have low incomes and still remain healthy. Create more options to give supports better and healthier choices (Aegis is too necessary, AP support items are simply outclassed by regular AP items). Support champs are not the problem, it's the systems around them.

-Assassins (35:40): Why assassins? Too many similarities between assassins, not distinct enough. Kept assassins weak because they are too toxic when strong. Assassins are supposed to kill, but to make them less frustrating they are made to kill less effectively. This doesn't feel good for the assassin player. Want to bring more utility to assassins (more vision contributions, objectives, and out of combat movespeed for flanking). Want more assassins that are less focused on mechanical skill and more on game understanding and mind games. Give counterplay to assassins and give those fighting against them a way to outplay them to survive, rather than relying on the assassin messing up to survive.

-Game Predictions (49:40): Assassin update will counterbalance the mage update changes and cause midlaners to think about picks. Preseason will be exciting. Teams playing more strategically around dragons (we have three Mountain Drakes so let's push objectives). Games will get faster as people learn the importance of objectives.

Thanks for reading guys! [slayer-jinx-catface]

Shaclean8 votes

thanks! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

woodvsmurph3 votes

Could eve get a rework too? I don't know if you consider her an assassin primarily or something else, but I feel like she definitely needs a very different kit -- she's either fed and deleting everyone thanks to her stealth, behind/even and getting blown up for building high damage and having only 2 semi-spammable damage abilities, or tanking damage (less effectively than other jungles) if built as a tank and dealing no damage compared to other tanks.

Some possible ideas: **heightened ****speed **-- attack speed buff and removes slow debuffs (think her e and w combined)

taste for blood -- spammable damage like kha q that stacks up in combat (like jax's attackspeed -- because vampires feed off blood right)

feeding time -- regains percent of missing hp and mana for each kill/assist (amplified version of dangerous game -- rewards good eve's by keeping them in the fight -- something current damage eve's can't do because they're too squishy)

cryptic sleep -- built in zhonya (cuz vlad has pool and fizz has playful/trickster to keep them in the fight longer/make good escapes)

nighthunter -- enhanced movement speed when out of enemy champions' line of sight

The way I see it, this type of rework makes eve more about sustained damage in teamfights while giving her the ability to duel many people 1v1. She keeps her strength/identity of a champ able to roam quickly and surprise you by showing up seemingly out of nowhere. Good eve's would be rewarded with the ability to flank and pick off squishy champs if not faced with hard cc. They could survive the enemy team turning focus on them (for a small amount of time) via cryptic sleep and feeding time -- allowing their teammates to capitalize on their assassination of a carry similar to the way tf's can stun a carry and zhonya at right time to give their team the advantage in a fight. You could still even keep the ad and ap duality of eve (if you wanted) by making taste for blood scale more off ap and be burst focused -- not 1-shot stuff, but enough that a late-game adc needs some help dealing with that damage while keeping heightened speed a more ad scaling ability. Both could have some scaling with both ad and ap, but one scales stronger with ad and the other with ap.

Even if you don't like any of these ideas, I would still like to see eve in the reworked sometime before next season.

jinxedchef42 votes

"Everything is great. There is no reason to engage the community on the subject of solo queue. Move on nothing to see here"

BoldRevelation3 votes

Whats wrong with solo queue

warpenguin55527 votes

that its not here

Zamzo IV5 votes

Preach ^

BET Adsorption4 votes

Move on nothing to see here LeeSin item 3070

Thats Outrageous40 votes

I just want item 2303 item 2045 item 2049 item 2301 item 2302 item 3711 to recharge while away from fountain... So I don't feel blind when they break my item 2043

Maphu26 votes

Yeah like can we get 1 ward on kill/assist? That'd be neat

Fishtaco26 votes

maybe for every ward you destroy

zzman730516 votes

Brilliant good sir*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

Crowe Stalker14 votes

You forgot item 3711 on that list. Otherwise I agree, Vision items should recharge.

Also, a separate item slot for item 2043 would be amazing and allow us to place vision even at full build.

warpenguin55531 votes

Still a bad season. game has been getting better but for every good choice riot makes there are 2-3 bad ones

JimmyNtheKudos22 votes

This.

It also seems like Riot is trying to downplay these bad decisions and just saying "it's all going to be ok, it's going to get fixed." Meanwhile, everyone is having a shitty time playing.

Tract15 votes

For the record ive been having a great time, I even got a bunch of my friends to start playing since they like it more right now than before, when they gave up after an hour becasue they said they got bored. Now they are starting their first placements.

AMYS GRAVE16 votes

really, cuz everyone i know quit.

LuluInWonderland14 votes

Same here...I know a lot more people that quit or hardly play now. It seems to be making the game more available for new players but at the cost of being fun for fans. That works when you first grow your product, but not for something that's been around this long with a user base this large.

AMYS GRAVE11 votes

really? because as far as i can tell the new player experience is still awful.

JUNGLE CEO3 votes

all my friends fucking quit too, im one of the only ones that still plays and i just play 3v3s because 5v5s is so horrible and unhealthy.

Gene Hikaze2 votes

Yeah there is still a very big issue with new players being forced into playing against Gold+ smerfs simply because they are playing with a friend that is level 30. League needs some sort of, "Apprentice" system where good players can take a handicap of sorts and still play with their low level friends without forcing them into Gold+ player groups. Maybe even force the people who are playing with their Apprentice to having no runes and masteries until their Apprentice gets to level 20.

GP Ulted Japan23 votes

I have to agree. As a player since Season 2. I've seen league change with multiple things coming and going. To date, this has been one of the worst seasons in the sense that the big changes made from last season has reduced my overall enjoyment in-game. Furthermore, I've stopped ranking due to the whole dynamic queue 'bs' although I will say, I see the effort and changes being made to better ranked queues in general. All that being said, be it a bad season or not, I can't lie and say I quit playing the game. Thus, Riot must be doing something right.

At this point, I'll be complacent with the game and just wait for next season where we will hopefully see some of Riot's big projects like the new client and possibly new changes to spice the game up.

Bolwinkel8 votes

This season was just a fuck up from pre-season that Riot has been trying to fix.

YKIm Just Saiyan10 votes

this was the season i finally quit thank you RIOT for messing up your game so bad i could finally quit

the sheets11 votes

The game is horrible.

Crovax II7 votes

Then stop playing

The Whamboozler6 votes

A lot of people have.

World Ender10 votes

Many more have stayed.

The Whamboozler11 votes

It's a company that wants to push their product... people leaving SHOULD concern them.

Should someone not be concerned if they "only" lose 10% of their blood? How about 20%? I don't know how much of their playerbase they're losing or how many new players they regain on a regular basis... but I'm pretty sure the losses are higher and that's why they're pushing a lot to bring in new players and cater to the more casual crowd. I could be wrong.

Even if I am... people leaving is still something a sane company should at least look into. People leaving left for a reason. They had an issue with the product, the company or just weren't into the game enough to stay. All of these things could become real problems for the product... in this case, the game. And this is assuming they're not already.

People staying isn't a positive... it's the default. People JOINING would be positive. That means that the company is doing well, and the game is growing. If you have ten of something and lose one, you've still got nine... so no big. But if you never gain MORE, you need to be VERY careful about losing more, or you'll end up with nothing.

Now keep in mind that those "somethings" are customers and Riot needs a certain number of them to even afford to maintain their game... pay employees, work on new things, etc. I don't think they're ANYWHERE near the red on this, but I think they might have peaked and are dipping now. In this situation they have only two options. Stall their decline by keeping the players they have for as long as possible... or try to get new ones to replace the lost players.

Except their attempts to get new players are driving old ones away. Old players were the ones that helped Riot succeed in the first place, and their love of the game is what made it such a success in the first place. Sentimentality isn't good business, obviously... but chasing away old players in the HOPE of getting new ones is very, VERY risky. I don't think it's working and I'd bet they're still declining... possibly faster than they would have if they hadn't driven away a bunch of old players/streamers/youtubers (because who needs free advertising for your game, right?)... but again, I don't know.

Regardless... "Many more have stayed" still means that they have less players than they did BEFORE, numbnuts. Given that I see more "bored of league" or "quitting league" videos than I see fun ones these days, it's not really hard to see why new players might not want to get into a game that even the people who play it on streams/youtube for a living want to play. I don't know if you played back in the glory days of the dunk squad, the pro as heck guide to Master Yi or Xin Zhao being a man.. but that was when the game was FUN. Compared to that, the game currently feels like a room full of people bitching over who gets to take the last slice of pizza before they all ditch the shitty party they all came to.

It's all a moot point tho, since the only thing that will prove either of us right or wrong is time.

GP Ulted Japan10 votes

Would it be difficult to make these podcasts into videos? I would much rather see a video instead of hear a podcast although I really enjoy the input put into these.

warpenguin5559 votes

If you guys are that concerned about the mid lane meta, why dont you buff champions like Ziggs and Xerath. I dont know if they will do anything about Vlad or Ryze, but they do beat Azir. Azir has the problem of having only 1 strong counter in Viktor(who in himself is overpowered). While i dont have much to say about Vlad and Ryze is getting reworked, i do play a ton of Azir, and champs like Ziggs and Xerath should be what you go to, but nobody does.

Salvus9 votes

On the subject of Cloud Drake and it's lack of a buff. I disagree for the following reasons: Movement speed is incredibly strong when you think of it it relation to the enemies movement speed. This provides a huge strategic advantage and teams in competitive haven't even begun to master it.(ADC'S get my drift?)If you don't understand, read sin tzu.

WheresMyDadBtw9 votes

It seems like you guys are ignoring the risk factor for assassins. The reason people dislike facing zed so much is that he can do the same damage to a target as talon or diana but also do so with very little risk due to his crazy mobility. Sure there's a delay, but who cares when zed can simply just disengage whenever he wants. If he messes up he can just reset then go for the kill later. Assassins like talon and diana are very risk oriented so if they mess up they usually end up dying in fights beyond 1v1s. Don't get me wrong zed is actually in a weak state right now, but to say facing zed feels more fair seems a bit stretched.

Guy Fox Teemo5 votes

Its not stretched, I'd rather be given 3 seconds to react with a shield, heal, zhonyas, etc. THen die INSTANTLY in .25 seconds. IDc if they die after, its FRUSTRATING to die so quickly and so fast, knowing there was nothing you can do about it.

WheresMyDadBtw4 votes

It is clearly shown people find zed more unfair. After the AD buffs to Tlords talon had one of the highest win rates in mid lane and was a decent amount stronger in solo queue than zed who was also strong at the time. Yet who got auto-banned? Zed did. Talon was occasionally banned but it was much more rare because people felt like he has a much more high risk high reward playstyle rather than a low risk high reward.

HeroOfSymphonia9 votes

"zed is healthier than talon" wtf??? zed has greater assassin power plus manaless wave clear plus stupid mobility to get in and out of a fight

ZeeWolfZ8 votes

None of this information felt to me was important. I'm more interested in real problems.

Raiden27d7 votes

STATE OF THE GAME "Well guys everythings a bit fucked atm."

Cowboy Disco7 votes

I wish there was a "fill besides" feature in ranked queues. As in, fill 3 of the 5 positions.

Palaven5 votes

For normal games too. If a person is willing to play 3 or 4 positions that would help them make matches quicker. Why limit it to 1, 2, or 5?

JUNGLE CEO6 votes

bring back solo queue please, were not going to stop asking. We wont forget about it

Tract4 votes

Does anyone know were to find the timestamps of topics like they did in other podcasts like this?

Kiddwi3 votes

Am i the only one who sees the potential of Expose Weakness on Supports ? Just Wondering.

Glory ln Death2 votes

I kind of assumed that was almost a must-have mastery for supports...

LuluInWonderland3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=VjUUgkp5,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2016-07-09T20:41:21.028+0000)

I kind of assumed that was almost a must-have mastery for supports...

As others have noted, it requires putting 6 points into Ferocity. Five of those points (on most supports) have very little impact. Taking those same 6 points and putting them into Cunning or Resolve offer more overall. For tanky and CC/disruption-based supports, the ms + cookies offer a lot more than the AS or AP (assuming they focus Resolve first). For mage supports, Cunning is usually the go-to tree because of TLD or windspeaker's. As such, the regen, ms, and flat HP in Resolve are necessary in laning (since they primarily rely on base stats for abilities, not the ratios). Oh, and reduction in summoner spell CDs is a necessity (exhaust OP!).

There are some exceptions, especially for the more burst-based supports (Brand/Annie/Zyra), but generally the other trees offer a lot more for a champion that relies on limited gold and base stats.

SAKELLARIOU3 votes

Aidan Zirene is the only person who makes sense. Even in LCS he always wants to say the one thing that Riot wants him to keep hush about... and I respect him more for actually pointing out problems. Be more like Zirene Riot... we will forgive you. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

MikelTheUltimeat2 votes

summoner 14

13krish132 votes

assassin is to powerfull damage but you need to stonger a tankers

Dauthau2 votes

As a BRONZE 2 (so low elo, not Riots targeted choice for the DynaQ change) I was in queue for low of 5 minutes, high of 12 minutes, average 8 minutes a couple of days ago (last time I played). Used to play daily but things have become so toxic in game and it takes forever to find a game. Once I am in game, we still get afk and have to /remake. Matchmaking is not what it used to be, I don't feel like I'm with players of my skill level (or if I am with players of my skill, we're against players above our skill level by a long shot).

Champion balance, overall is a thing of the past. Also marksmen in the top lane vs. melee is more and more of a problem I've noticed.

The "fun factor" of league now is much lower than it was in season 4 imho (season 5 was nearly as fun but season 6 tapered off a lot). My friends who got me into League and were die-hard fans no longer play due to the previously stated reasons too. So the reason for DynaQ is dead for me, I only play solo now (or maybe with randos).

I never used to be a DynaQ opposer, in fact it was kinda cool when it came out but now I'm seeing a turn for the worse in the league community.

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