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Riot Pls: Dynamic queue, sandbox, and League 2016

Riot·4/12/2016, 7:14:40 PM·40 votes·102,101 views

Hey everyone,

New001, ScuttleChris, and Banksy - product leads on League - here to loop you in on what’s next for League of Legends.

tl;dr: Riot Pls is an ongoing effort to talk about the future of League of Legends and share lessons we’re learning along the way. You can read the first one here.


The vision

Over the last 6+ years, we’ve been guided by a few core philosophies -- for example, we believe League at its best is an incredibly competitive experience, and one that is all the more powerful when played with people you trust. We also believe that our mission is to support League in being the best it can be, whether it’s maintaining the never ending path to mastery, offering more avenues of expression, or connecting players to one another through a shared love of the game.

We still believe these things and wanted to share how our vision - our long, long-term goal for League - has evolved.

We want League of Legends to become a global sport that lasts for generations. We’re not just talking about the LCS (or LCK, or CBLoL, or NACS, or…); we’re talking about League as a way of life - a competitive hobby, pastime, or activity that stays with you through the years. Imagine growing up with League the same way others have grown up with basketball, baseball, or soccer; shooting free-throws at the park, playing pickup games at the gym, forming new friendships in recreational leagues, being a die-hard fan of your favorite pro team, all the way to taking the international stage at the World Finals (if that’s the path you choose). Ultimately this is our goal: to foster a love for the sport of League by offering competitive, fulfilling experiences at all levels of play. We’re not quite there today, but we think we can get there with your help.

This vision doesn’t demand we drop everything else we’re working on. It just provides us with an overarching ideal we can push toward. We want League to grow into a true team sport and, at times, progress has been painful. As we stack-rank our development priorities, we’ve had to be honest with ourselves in making hard decisions about things we aren’t prioritizing. It’s part of why we retired Dominion, and it’s part of our initial goals for dynamic queue (and why we fumbled in the transition over from solo/duo queue). With these challenges in mind, however, we still believe this is the vision, and we’d love to hear your ideas on how we can accomplish it.

As we get more comfortable talking about work on the fly, Riot Pls will move away from being about the features we’ve shipped (or won’t ship) and more on the lessons we’ve learned in pursuit of this vision. For now, we have a few things to cover:


Sandbox (aka Training) mode

We were wrong to completely shut down the possibility of sandbox mode. Full stop. Our initial argument - that training mode makes for an even higher barrier to entry - makes some behavioral assumptions that many rightly called us out on. Your passionate feedback and sound reasoning, along with a lot of internal conversations around this vision of League as a global sport have made it clear that our concerns only have the potential to become reality if we’re not doing our job. Providing competitive experiences at all levels of play also means we should be providing the right training tools at all levels of play.

That said, being open to the idea doesn’t mean it immediately becomes our top priority. The internal team that would develop this feature is focused on a different project for the foreseeable future, so while we’re saying we want to do it and, one day, we will, that’s the extent of this commitment. Your feedback has always been a powerful presence in conversations around how we achieve our goals, so while we can’t even promise SoonTM here, we didn’t want to leave the issue canceled. When we begin tangible, focused work on sandbox mode, we’ll update you.

(Quick caveat: when we say sandbox mode, we’re specifically referring to a training mode where players can practice core skills - not a sandbox ‘modify your game in any way’ mode.)


Dynamic queue

We don’t expect you to rent out a gaming house with four friends just so you can stay in Plat, but we do want to support a queue that levels up in competition like any other team sport: through leadership, cooperation, and, yes, raw skill. All athletes possess these attributes in different measures, but they understand and value them intrinsically. Prior to the launch of dynamic queue, we felt like we had a competitive ladder that over-indexed on the raw skill and individualism parts instead of naturally promoting all-around great teamplay.

When the team made its recent update, a lot of players took away the conclusion of “no solo queue” -- that we were hiding from a hard conversation by being purposefully vague. In reality, we’re not making a call on solo queue because there are some critical issues we need to fix in dynamic queue to understand what’s actually missing. Promising solo queue in our original announcement was premature - a knee-jerk reaction to a situation we were still figuring out - and our silence on the matter (outside of some miscommunications) only made things more suspicious.

Here’s the rundown: We know that for some players, dynamic queue undermines individual recognition of skill, and that’s not something we can solve with iterative improvements. It’s a philosophical difference. But, we know a lot of things that can be solved with iterative improvements, and our current top three priorities are improving the solo player experience against premades, lowering queue times, and smoothing out role selection weight. In an ideal (and optimistic) world, getting these numbers right would make a second queue unnecessary, but it’s not something we’re dismissing as of yet. Right now we're prioritizing the stability and health of a single queue - two would split the ranked player base and have a significant impact on wait times - and this is not a decision we’re taking lightly.

When it comes to a philosophical stance, however, we do want to be clear: we believe that dynamic queue is closer to representing a healthy, competitive landscape in League of Legends than solo/duo queue. We’re not saying this to present a binary ‘one or the other’ situation -- it’s a belief in the same way we know we’re under-serving those who want a way to measure (and communicate) their individual performance. This will be an ongoing conversation as we finish stabilizing dynamic queue and develop a deeper understanding of what we should be prioritizing next.


Onward through 2016

When we launched League back in 2009, we were just focused on making the game we wanted to play… and then making sure the damn thing stayed online and worked correctly. We’ve spent most of our time since then trying to keep up with the game as it grows -- we’ve told the story dozens of times. Honestly speaking, we’ll never get beyond tech debt (or design debt, or art debt, or systems debt, etc.) because we never want to stop evolving and trying to improve. But we’ve made a lot of progress over the last few years (even with occasional stumbles), and 2016 is finally the year where we can build off our remodeled foundations to take real, meaningful steps forward.

Whether it’s alpha testing an updated client, improving our backend stuff, delivering clubs and the mobile app, or working hard on our mid-season update, we’ll always stay hungry in evolving League as a global sport that lasts for generations. We hope you’ll stay with us on that course.

We’ll see you before Q3 with our next wall of text.

New001, ScuttleChris, and Banksy

1,006 Comments

Slyth3r4/14/2016, 8:58:00 PM379 votes

Lmao, this is ridiculous.. Before dynamic queue I had 1 minute queue times.Now it's 3-15m (depending on the time of day). I'm really tired of playing with 4 man dynamics and being the only one whose communicating in chat. I feel that as a two season mid-high diamond player communication is crucial to win games .Honestly, just bring back solo queue so I can stop playing this busted and retarded system called dynamic queue.

Windows OS4/14/2016, 7:55:30 PM126 votes

"improving the solo player experience against premades"

Maybe if the queue FORCED solo players to go against other solos it wouldn't even be an issue

Meanie404/14/2016, 8:40:32 PM88 votes

We don't want a better Dynamic Queue.

We want a Solo Queue. Full stop.

JustCasual4/14/2016, 8:08:26 PM73 votes

We've see talented and motivated individuals and communities develop some really cool stuff with Riot Games API being open to developers. I believe that we can see something similar done w/ Sandbox mode. Is it possible for Riot to be able to provide something for the community to put their skills and passions to better this game, to help their fellow summoners, and unburden their beloved Riot Games? It doesn't even have to be clean. Look at how well 3rd party developers deal with replay systems that have to be updated every patch; it's something that at least fills the need for replays for the time being.

Riot Games is unique in the sense that they have proven over and over again that they care for the community and that the community is a large force that shapes the future of this game. Let the community help develop 3rd party ways to supplement an official Riot Games Sandbox mode (i.e. Starcraft's 'Use Map Settings'). Imagine people creating small modes to help Last Hit, Attack Move, Assassinate the back line, etc. I mean didn't MOBAs start from a few creative minds able to play with the pieces of an existing game?

Let us help Riot Braum

Fenfyre4/14/2016, 8:04:37 PM68 votes

I hope to see league lasting for a very very long time.

Luabee4/14/2016, 8:13:50 PM66 votes

I find it hard to believe that a single game can last "generations". The game is so different now than it was in 2009, and it'll be so much more different in another 7 years. Sports like Baseball and Soccer never change and that's why they've become traditions.

Not saying you guys shouldn't try, I'm just saying bravo if you succeed.

Stevev454/14/2016, 8:42:25 PM59 votes

"Prior to the launch of dynamic queue, we felt like we had a competitive ladder that over-indexed on the raw skill and individualism parts instead of naturally promoting all-around great teamplay."

It's pretty alienating to hear the thing you liked most about a game you played for so long is what the developer would like to de-emphasize. I liked the competitive "pick up" game feel of the old solo queue. I'm not interested at all in playing league as an organized game.

Adonna4/14/2016, 10:05:44 PM56 votes

This statement said everything I didn't want to hear or don't care about at all. So disappointing.

To The vision: I love esports and gl trying to push it further but because of this blind devotion to achieve this, Riot has crammed 'GROUP' mentality (Dynamic Que only, higher rewards for grouping) down our throats and prioritized it over ALL things and it's making everyone suffer. I want to play alone, I don't want to socialize, I don't play the game to make friends, I play this game to GET AWAY from people. Why are you punishing me for wanting to enjoy the game by giving privileges to others who want to group or are forcing themselves to in order to reap these rewards? The only reason you are pushing this to further your agenda and make new customers through current gamers and more money.

To Dynamic Que and what you think the issues are (so off the mark here), you think "improving the solo player experience against premades, lowering queue times, and smoothing out role selection weight" is what will fix it. NOPE - you think lowering que times will make people happy, but as you do this, the gaps are widening between player tiers to the point where you can have a premade of high diamonds play against a solo team of masters/challengers. WTF IS THAT? HOW IS THAT FAIR? HOW IS THIS COMPETITION and how the fuck is this improving League? (saw this a couple times on challenger player streams - utter stomps). This compounds being forced to choose a secondary role and, because of trying to drive que times down, you are more than likely going to get your secondary role.

To Sandbox Mode: Meh, you were wrong (just like Dynamic Que hint hint) so you somewhat admit but feint that really you did nothing wrong because you thought you were right. It's 'sorry not sorry' and it's getting old.

To Closing Argument: I couldn't help but laugh at your statement: _"We’ve spent most of our time since then trying to keep up with the game as it grows -- we’ve told the story dozens of times. Honestly speaking, we’ll never get beyond tech debt...because we never want to stop evolving and trying to improve." _

That's SO sweet of you...you already can't keep up with the current demand for your game but you continue to push your broken, outdated client/game to many more, INCREASING the demands further and further until your house of cards will crumble. Sorry Riot, you aren't TF and Lady Luck is not smiling...right now she's writing this down as a warning. Soon, your 'debt' will pile up and it'll be time to pay up or we'll start with breaking some fingers. Pinky first - you don't really need that to code a new client, right? item 3151

Daktush4/14/2016, 8:34:24 PM54 votes

My problem is not my experience against premades. My problem is my experience playing with premades on my team.

Besides that, ELO rating has lost a lot of its meaning. Please separate solo skill ratings and 3+ ELO.

Cameran4/14/2016, 9:51:42 PM49 votes

Long post inc. Wager not many will read this, but whoever does I hope gets something out of it.

First, we should separate DQ and the new champ select experience. I think most people can agree, aside from the support problem (which can be fixed), new champ select is a marked improvement over the old experience.

So, I appreciate that Riot's stance on Dynamic versus Solo queue is being presented this way. I disagree with it, but at least now it is out there. To paraphrase, Riot believes that DQ is more suited as a measure of your skill at playing with the team than solo queue, which is a better gauge of individual skill.

I disagree - DQ merely reduces your individual impact on the game, while emphasizing who you know. There is a team integration piece there, I agree. However, DQ also removes agency (as in ability to influence the game) from players not in premade groups, which make up (in my experience) 60+% of teams in ranked. This is a feel bad behavior for individuals, and cheapens the "ranking" received by everyone in the game, because that number means something different for everyone in the game now, instead of being closer to a representation of individual skill for each player.

Personally, I want ranked to be about playing with 4 other individuals (or hell, 2+a duo) who are within a standard deviation or so of my skill level. I can't play with my friends even if I want to, as they are almost universally below the ranked threshold for us to queue together. And in general, I don't want to play ranked with my friends (normals are great) because there is an inherent pressure for me to carry. Solo queue removes that pressure, as the expectation is that you are either in the same skill bracket as those in your game, or about to move up/down since you are better/worse than they are. DQ has proven to have much wider swings in both skill level and personal agency (while also sometimes being an effective variant of solo queue when premades aren't present), and in general, that variance makes the ladder less meaningful. A less meaningful ladder reduces the impetus to play ranked (for me - I can't speak for others), which makes the queue less populated, which...you get the picture.

I work a real job. Networking (what DQ feels like it prioritizes if you want to maintain game agency) is valuable skill there. I play games to get away from the real world for a time and have fun, not to serve as another surrogate job. If this is the direction you want to take the game, and a majority agrees - great. This won't be the game for me anymore. On the other hand, if this is you imposing a system the majority doesn't agree with...your "decades" hope will find itself sadly optimistic, and you should be re-evaluating, in that case.

Karlyr4/14/2016, 8:48:46 PM47 votes

About the dynamic queue vs solo queue. If you want to improve the system for solo players, you should compare to CS:GO and other games that use that approach. It goes against what you always wanted for league... But this should come with a in game voice chat.

As I said, it goes against everything you said beforehand, but these game have better solo player enjoyment because both type of "queuers" end up communicating easily and effectively.

I'm not sure if you can't find another way to make this a thing, but 3-4-5 man premades will always be on some sort of voice chat. You have to bring the solo players to their ears otherwise the solo player experience won't change.

EDIT : I know that Riot always refused to consider the voice chat as an option because they wanted to keep hands on the report system. They could keep audio clips from the reports in game, give players options to mute them (seperated options for voice and written chats) and an indication that said player refuses to hear from you for X or Y reason.

If they start arguing / insulting in the written chat, then the player should really be considered toxic and therefore punished. Otherwise, the written chat is still there for those players which doesn't have / doesn't want to use the microphone for them to communicate over with the people using the voice chat.

Meanie404/14/2016, 8:43:49 PM47 votes

Right now we're prioritizing the stability and health of a single queue - two would split the ranked player base and have a significant impact on wait times - and this is not a decision we’re taking lightly.

Make the single queue solo queue, and bring back Ranked 5's for those who want to play with friends.

SnowDayz4/14/2016, 9:02:14 PM42 votes

Your solo standing, and your individual skill is the ONLY thing that matters in ranked. You're killing the highest level of skill and ability with Dynamic Q.

There are not, I repeat are not, any tweaks you can make to the system that would stop SKT, ORG, TSM, or other top regional teams to give them fair matches when they Q as 5. The top tier, the challenger players, the pros. LISTEN TO THEM PLEASE. How are you going to find a way to make even match ups when a bunch of disparate duo's and triples with some solos thrown in, find matches in a reasonable time, WHILE Not making them unbalanced when you have maybe 100? players at that level playing at once?

You can tout whatever numbers and proportions you want. As you climb higher in ranked, the problems with dynamic get worse. More teams on comms, more people boosted above their individual skill, and less incentive to get better on your own. Why would we want to climb when every top player is saying that league right now as never been less fun?

SOLO ONLY. Take dynamic Q away, if you want to play with people you know you play normals. Ranked is for try harding, ranked is for getting better, ranked is not for friends. Ranked is not for people who don't want to deal with random team mates.

Keevalroy4/14/2016, 8:48:09 PM38 votes

Yes, we understand you want this to be a sport considering how much you prioritize the pro scene environment over the actual game and playerbase. We've known this for years, but at least you're actually admitting to it now so I guess that's a plus?

And for Dynamic? Let's be real here, the only reason you want to avoid "splitting the community" is because you know that if the solo queue we were promised actually comes out, Dynamic will collapse in on itself and solo queue would be the most dominant system - a system you didn't want and apparently resent supporting with so much effort and focus on Dynamic - which is hated by a large number in the community.

The attempts to defend this system has led to us pointing out hypocrisy and slimy decision making that makes us call you untrustworthy. You can play the innocent victim, but let's not forget about what led to this point.

PROJECT Leona4/14/2016, 9:49:29 PM37 votes

You guys keep bringing up this "competitiveness" non-sense into justifying DQ. If people were to truly play League in competitive environment, as in pro-level gaming, they would make a team of 5, not 3 or 4. For those who wanted to play team of 3 or 4, there is always option of playing in normal queue. I don't seriously can't understand why you guys got rid of solo/duo-queue and team rank (5-men queue) option. For those who really wanted to make a team effort and play "competitive game" with friends, they would play team rank. Instead of being stubborn and ignoring the opinion of majority, I would really suggest you bring back solo/duo-queue along with team rank system. Individuals stuck with premade of 3 or 4 suffers greatly. DQ also brings up problem with reporting. Whenever I report directly on LoL website, I always get "Please use report system in-game" non-sense. You guys are not going to look at 1 person reporting 4-men queue for harassing/intentionally feeding.

gottrjr4/14/2016, 8:38:31 PM35 votes

You could have re-enabled team builder since you lied about solo q. But now we are stuck with dynamic q that most of the vocal community dislikes. Dynamic Q has a lot of flaws and we shouldn't have to work through them as you work through them. This isn't the PBE or a Sandbox, this is live, and we want something that works.

warpenguin5554/14/2016, 8:28:25 PM33 votes

"improving the solo player experience against premades"

how do you plan on doing that?

worm4/14/2016, 8:33:55 PM31 votes

we do want to be clear: we believe that dynamic queue is closer to representing a healthy, competitive landscape in League of Legends than solo/duo queue.

It doesn't matter if you guys perfectly make it where solo only goes against solo. Ranks don't mean shit right now because anyone can just spam games with the same 4 people and eventually gain synergy and climb with ease. With a pure soloq, ranks actually have worth because you know they deserve it.

Vexagon4/14/2016, 8:41:27 PM30 votes

What is Riot's explanation/stance on Dynamic Queue given that it is a system that other MOBA's have tried, recognized critical flaws with, and ultimately discarded? Does Riot think that they have ideas that other companies such as Blizzard didn't have when they were trying to make the system work?

Oscolot4/14/2016, 9:35:44 PM21 votes

Can you please respond to the fact that other games have tried systems like dynamic queue and then reverted the changes/added a solo queue? It seems like instead of rustling the jimmies of your playerbase you could learn from the experimentation that other games have done.