New Champ Select Update

RiotRiot Socrates·3/22/2016, 6:04:52 PM·217 votes·171,855 views

Hey all,

It’s been two months since we launched the new champ select and dynamic queue. The team has been heads-down addressing issues and we realized it’s past time to update where we are and where we still need to go.

The number of people playing in premades is the highest we’ve seen in League’s history and 98.6% of the time, premades of 4 or 5 teammates are being matched against a premade of the same size (most of the 1.4% with more divergent premade sizes come from very high and very low MMR ranges). Teams made of solos and duos are matched against a premade 4 or premade 5 only 0.21% of the time, and players queueing solo get teamed up with 4 man premades 3% of the time.

Match quality (defined by the average MMR difference between players on one team vs. the opposing team) has improved slightly, giving us closer, fairer games across all tiers of ranked play.

With the introduction of new champ select and dynamic queue to ranked, as players get the roles they want (with some exceptions we’ll talk about below), we’ve seen the frequency at which ranked players encounter language serious enough to result in a chat restriction has dropped by nearly 40%.

Overall, we interpret these numbers to suggest a higher (and more positive) degree of engagement with dynamic queue, but we still have a lot of work to do on a number of fronts.

At the launch of new champion select, dodge rates almost doubled from the old queue because of the new lock-in requirement. We’ve added new sounds and made a few other usability improvements to help correct this. We’re also still pursuing a tricky bug that makes the client not pop to front when it’s your turn as well. The dodge rate is now slightly lower than the previous champ select (even when we include players who dodge by failing to lock in), but there’s still room for improvement.

There are some remaining critical issues with matchmaking. High-skill players above Diamond tier have seen unacceptable queue times lasting as long as an hour. We launched a high-MMR queue time update on March 4. As a result, average queue times for most high MMR players are down to 5 minutes, but some at the highest levels still have much longer waits. That’s still not good enough and fixing it is one of our highest priorities.

When we first launched new champion select, players were getting their primary role about 70% of the time. As selection behavior changed, this number dropped. We expected players would try and game the system, but we may have underestimated the impact on matchmaking, and there are some particularly bad position combos that result in getting secondary position too frequently. Improving and properly calibrating role selection is also high priority for us.

We’ve also been working to fix a lot of critical issues while adding some much needed functionality, such as being able to open your champion grid at any time and not revealing pick intent to opponents when it’s your turn.

A few days after we launched dynamic queue we said we would re-release solo queue within weeks, which we haven’t. The main reason is we've prioritized improving matchmaking and position select first and foremost. It's also clear we underestimated the amount of iterative work necessary to bring dynamic queue up to our standards, and we should have communicated that earlier. That said, as we continue our work, we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed. Once we've fixed match times and position selection, we’ll have a better update on other queues.

Until then, thanks for helping make the new queue and the new season start off so successfully! GLHF, and we’ll see you on the Rift.

Riot Socrates

1,140 Comments

PsycloneJoker3/22/2016, 6:12:45 PM406 votes

That said, as we continue our work, we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed.

Looks like you guys are getting an early start on backtracking about solo queue. Will it be the next update when you announce no solo queue or will we have to wait for the one after that?

MudintheWater3/22/2016, 6:10:52 PM236 votes

we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole

Translation: SoloQueue is dead.

Lisbeth3/22/2016, 6:13:34 PM176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Socrates,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=6WuZKauE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-22T18:04:52.023+0000)

That said, as we continue our work, we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed.

Translation - "If we release solo queue, dynamic queue will die."

SoundChaosDebug3/22/2016, 6:12:44 PM145 votes

TL;DR

No Solo Que it's gone just like team builder and dominion.

Have fun being support still

highest ranking people have to wait for ever

Aami3/22/2016, 6:24:01 PM112 votes

At least don't bother lying when you scrap the solo queue.

Lemme guess, in about month of two you come up with another post to announce that due to surveys made people don't actually want solo queue and then can it? It was so obvious what would happen straight from the first announcement, solo queue was set up to fail with every possible benefit being given to dynamic queue to prep the cancelling of solo queue. Riot has never been too good at lying.

This whole thing is a colossal failure and who ever is pushing this should be fired on the spot.

Ren Ex3/22/2016, 6:19:17 PM103 votes

Okay, so, what I took away from this is:

  • Solo-queue ain't happening, play Dynamic or go back to Normals
  • People talking about being 5 randoms against 5-stacks are actual liars
  • People aren't happy they aren't getting their role, which has led to gaming the sytem, which has, in-turn, made it harder to get certain roles

That the basics, right?

Also, nobody has told me that Match Quality has gotten better. Every game I've been in this past week has been pure snowballing stomps from either side. Guess those guys didn't get the memo as well.

Glad to know pretty much nothing has change, just QoL and more Mid mains never getting to play Mid.

Kaydegard3/22/2016, 7:04:07 PM101 votes

Hi, I'm Kaydegard. I'm sorry if this seems a bit ranty but I've had this on my chest for a while now and I need to get it off. I've been playing LoL for about 3 years now, I started playing the game at a time when I was deeply depressed and it really helped me recover.

I have invested a lot of time, effort, and emotion into this game, and I will continue to do so because I honestly believe that Riot is a really great game dev in at a level that is severely lacking even decent ones. I want to continue to play this game because I enjoy it despite everything I have to deal with on a daily basis, both inside and outside the game. League enriches my life and I've never found anything that's comparable to it, there's no other online game that's as well designed, no other online game that's as well loved by both it's players and it's developers, the only reason I'm writing this is because I KNOW you folks care about making a good game and ARE listening.

Dynamic Queue has been a THOROUGHLY miserable experience, in my 3 years of playing I've never had as less fun as I am having right now. Every game is so much more mentally exhausting than before, every game feels so much less in my control. Please understand, I firmly believe that you can win most games by playing well, and I still do, just far less than I did before.

It feels like you have so much less impact and so much less agency than you did before. What it feels to me is that 70% of your games are decided by what I've come to call 'power groups' a premade on your team or the other team that just crushes everyone else. I don't like playing in premades outside of normals, and I intend to never play in a ranked premade ever, I wish to play alone because I believe that that experience, one that I have not had the chance to get ONCE since this season started is truly unique and is the best way to experience the game.

You are making a huge mistake by going down this path, every time you've spoken about this subject you've been trying to convince yourself and the community that this is a good idea, I think that alone is grounds for reconsidering your stance. I promise you that once and if Solo Q is ever released me and what I believe to be a significant portion of the playerbase will not touch Dynamic with a 10-meter pole, we want nothing to do with it because it is such a despicable experience. I say this on a personal level that Dynamic Q is one of the few times in my life where i experience unequivocal and unilateral hate and loathing towards something, I've never felt like this before and I truly wish that I didn't feel this way but I want to continue playing this game and Dynamic Q is an Obstacle to me doing so, I play in this queue because it's the only one available, because I have no choice, I would playing fucking 3v3 if it had a true solo q, I would play a competitive solo Q mode where the only champion available was Soraka if it meant that I could play Solo Q.

Please, I beg you, I truly beg you to bring up Solo Q faster and focus on it, nothing good can or will ever come out of Dynamic Q, please please PLEASE don't let this be what kills the game.

RiotRiot Socrates3/22/2016, 8:11:28 PM86 votes

Hey guys, we know there are a lot of players who are really passionate about solo queue. We're not trying to be dishonest or dodge this topic. Radio silence on this the past couple months has been painful, we know. We hoped to come out with a direct answer to this, but working through the problems players are facing on live now (consistency around position select, queue times and matchmaking for high MMR) is taking longer than we initially expected. We did a bad job at managing expectations around this and deserve the heat we're getting around that.

That being said, solo queue does not directly address either of these problems and could suffer from the exact same problems. We'll be honest: there's definitely a world in which solo queue doesn't return, but we'd rather keep it on the table as we work through these issues before making a final decision.

BRBGTGBOWFLEX3/23/2016, 9:18:25 AM73 votes

Socrates, I do not envy the position you are in, however, I wanted to speak a bit on how I perceive this whole ordeal.

Dynamic Queue is already a dishonest endeavor.

It has been since inception. From the time it was announced it was very clear that the project goals were not to improve the quality of games, the accuracy of matchmaking, or the competitiveness of ranked play. It is something that was pushed for business reasons alone (improved player retention via community tie-in, increased social purchasing revenue) and every post from Riot discussing it makes it very clear that you are struggling to keep a straight face. However, lies of omission are really not much better than outright lies and it feels like there is a bit of both going on.

Outright Lies

I will speak plainly: most of the community believed that you were dishonest from day one. That the plan was to announce Dynamic Queue, make a false promise about Solo Queue (to quell the initial outrage), and try to stall until Dynamic Queue became the norm. That is what much of the community feared. Riot's actions match up to the explanation that Riot is dishonest rather than the explanation that "unforeseen things happened" or "lol we learned queues r 2 hard".

If you intended to make Solo Queue a reality, you would need to have a team working on it, for quite awhile, including awhile before Dynamic Queue launched. You would have encountered all these problems earlier. Tell us, Socrates, what happened to the team working on Solo Queue? Just when were they pulled? How many labor hours were actually spent on this? If Riot actually spent considerable resources on a Solo Queue, you would not be able to say things like "we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed" because it already would have been a business priority.

Like what, are we supposed to believe that you treated this initiative seriously? Or that if you had wanted it done that it wouldn't be ready and launched? Do you think we sincerely believe that features "accidentally" do not make it? It is not an accident.

This is theater and a farce. Riot never had the intention of implementing Solo Queue. It is not a mistake or a miscalculation. It is a lie. It is dishonest.

Lies of Omission

The numbers you do not say speak much louder than the numbers you do. You say meaningless things like "the number of people playing in premades is the highest we’ve seen in League’s history" as if it was a positive metric. It is not a positive metric. It is an admission that the system handicaps solo players and achieves what you intended-- forcing people into group play. The attempt to present this as a positive statistic is dishonest. Premades are not some inherent good, in fact, I think that outside of a full team, they have no place in ranked play (this includes duo queues). But, premades have risen, because solo players cannot afford to queue solo if they want to be competitive.

"Match quality has improved slightly"? Really? You're going to argue MMR benefit? I am absolutely positive that there are many documents at Riot which you have read where it is clear that MMR differentials and match quality in Dynamic Queue would NEVER equal what could be achieved with independent queues of 1,1,1,1,1 vs 1,1,1,1,1. You have to be aware that the match quality has already been sacrificed and that group queues lower match quality. So why try to present this stat? It makes no sense.

"We’ve seen the frequency at which ranked players encounter language serious enough to result in a chat restriction has dropped by nearly 40%." Wow. If Toxicity had actually been lowered, you would have said that pretty plainly. However, it has not lowered and you also cite a specific punishment (chat restriction) rather than all punishments, further making this statistic meaningless. It's easy to see why you pick this one-- because now a lot of chat with premades, even with randoms, moves to voice chat, so less is typed to warrant a chat restriction. Griefing and toxicity are worse because GROUPS ARE TOXIC. They inherently create divisions. Riot has tried to sugar coat this one, to pretend it's a perception problem, etc-- but we're pretty well aware that groups are not good for those not in them and lower the play experience. You have also admitted that 4 queues are extremely toxic, but have withheld numbers.

There are all kinds of other weasel statistics we are given. But other than the dodge stat, you're with-holding information to try to create a false impression that Dynamic Queue is a good thing for the player base, when it has not been and will not be.

Unfortunately, your ability to withhold numbers makes it difficult for the player base to see just how Dynamic Queue is harming the game.

Conclusion

I am pretty sure that other than massive PR backlash, Solo Queue will not be implemented. It is not something we can trust Riot to naturally do-- it will only be done in response to backlash (I am positive that Riot's plans are basically "Dynamic Queue only unless it provokes outrage". A necessary condition for Solo Queue is outrage or a decrease in profitability attributed to lack of a Solo Queue.

On this front, I think you'll find that solo queue players will leave and this will impact your revenue. We will see if that matters, but there's just no point to playing League for me without a Solo Queue option and I don't feel I am alone on that.

Retillin3/22/2016, 6:17:03 PM66 votes

So nothing about "Fill" being basically support now?

Cyraknoss3/22/2016, 6:16:17 PM65 votes

If you're worried about how soloqueue will effect match making it stands to reason fixing match making before you release solo queue is a pointless endeavor. So can we stop beating around the bush and just admit you're not going to release it rather than making nonsense contradictory statements?

lightdragoon883/22/2016, 6:08:53 PM61 votes

I still miss Team Builder, but I have to admit that this champ select has been really good.

Sigogglin3/22/2016, 8:44:45 PM59 votes

I swear to god if they backpedal on soloqueue I will not spend another cent on this fucking game.

{{summoner:17}} Dont make us get out our pitchforks again.{{summoner:17}}

Duke Anax3/22/2016, 6:26:42 PM55 votes

At times it seems like there is no priority for primary role whatsoever.

It's at the point that I NEVER get Primary role if I select support secondary.

Even as a support main I get tired of it eventually and stop putting support anywhere. This forces me to select a third role to play.

A lot of non Support mains might play Support occationally, but if they are guaranteed to get Support if they select it, they will decide against it.

If the only options are "Yes" or "No" a lot of people prefer to pick "No" even though they would pick "Maybe" if it were available.

This only ascerbates the situation, because the more people stop putting support secondary the worse the situation gets for the remaining ones.

I want to play Support/Jungle, which worked for the first weeks, but then I had to start selecting Jungle/Support if I wanted any Jungle at all. Now I have to conciously decide not to play Support this game and go Jungle/Top instead, which only means I get to play a lot more Top than I actually want.

Whober3/22/2016, 9:41:23 PM51 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Socrates,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=6WuZKauE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-22T18:04:52.023+0000)

Hey all,

It’s been two months since we launched the new champ select and dynamic queue. The team has been heads-down addressing issues and we realized it’s past time to update where we are and where we still need to go.

The number of people playing in premades is the highest we’ve seen in League’s history and 98.6% of the time, premades of 4 or 5 teammates are being matched against a premade of the same size (most of the 1.4% with more divergent premade sizes come from very high and very low MMR ranges). Teams made of solos and duos are matched against a premade 4 or premade 5 only 0.21% of the time, and players queueing solo get teamed up with 4 man premades 3% of the time.

Match quality (defined by the average MMR difference between players on one team vs. the opposing team) has improved slightly, giving us closer, fairer games across all tiers of ranked play.

With the introduction of new champ select and dynamic queue to ranked, as players get the roles they want (with some exceptions we’ll talk about below), we’ve seen the frequency at which ranked players encounter language serious enough to result in a chat restriction has dropped by nearly 40%.

Overall, we interpret these numbers to suggest a higher (and more positive) degree of engagement with dynamic queue, but we still have a lot of work to do on a number of fronts.

At the launch of new champion select, dodge rates almost doubled from the old queue because of the new lock-in requirement. We’ve added new sounds and made a few other usability improvements to help correct this. We’re also still pursuing a tricky bug that makes the client not pop to front when it’s your turn as well. The dodge rate is now slightly lower than the previous champ select (even when we include players who dodge by failing to lock in), but there’s still room for improvement.

There are some remaining critical issues with matchmaking. High-skill players above Diamond tier have seen unacceptable queue times lasting as long as an hour. We launched a high-MMR queue time update on March 4. As a result, average queue times for most high MMR players are down to 5 minutes, but some at the highest levels still have much longer waits. That’s still not good enough and fixing it is one of our highest priorities.

When we first launched new champion select, players were getting their primary role about 70% of the time. As selection behavior changed, this number dropped. We expected players would try and game the system, but we may have underestimated the impact on matchmaking, and there are some particularly bad position combos that result in getting secondary position too frequently. Improving and properly calibrating role selection is also high priority for us.

We’ve also been working to fix a lot of critical issues while adding some much needed functionality, such as being able to open your champion grid at any time and not revealing pick intent to opponents when it’s your turn.

A few days after we launched dynamic queue we said we would re-release solo queue within weeks, which we haven’t. The main reason is we've prioritized improving matchmaking and position select first and foremost. It's also clear we underestimated the amount of iterative work necessary to bring dynamic queue up to our standards, and we should have communicated that earlier. That said, as we continue our work, we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed. Once we've fixed match times and position selection, we’ll have a better update on other queues.

Until then, thanks for helping make the new queue and the new season start off so successfully! GLHF, and we’ll see you on the Rift.

Riot Socrates

You morons can fuck right off. the only reason solo queue hasn't been released yet is because you know nobody in their right mind would pick your shitty new queue over solo queue.just release solo queue already and admit that dynamic queue was just a stupid idea.

Here Comes Six3/22/2016, 9:04:27 PM43 votes

Fuck you Riot. I dont know why I keep believing your bullshit statistics and lies.

Im either quitting or not spending money on RP anymore because you cant admit that solo queue is better and would kill dynamic queue.

65214828DEL13/22/2016, 9:36:55 PM38 votes

If Solo queue is dead, I am going to leave dynamic queue games until i am perma banned.

Tufio3/22/2016, 10:07:28 PM37 votes

The number of people playing in premades is the highest we’ve seen in League’s history and 98.6% of the time, premades of 4 or 5 teammates are being matched against a premade of the same size (most of the 1.4% with more divergent premade sizes come from very high and very low MMR ranges). Teams made of solos and duos are matched against a premade 4 or premade 5 only 0.21% of the time, and players queueing solo get teamed up with 4 man premades 3% of the time.

So a solo get in a 4 made 3% of the time...

What about a solo in 3 made?

5? 10%

What about a solo with a double duo?

5% i dunno?

What about solo with a duo?

20% 30% 50%?

And this is just your team...

AS SOLO YOU SAID WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WITH AND VS SOLO 95% OF THE TIME, NOT 1 TIME EVERY 3 GAMES!

FIX THAT OR GIVE US SOLO QUEUE.

Jungle Rammus3/22/2016, 9:40:26 PM34 votes

Been playing dynamic queue for 3 months now under the impression that Solo queue would be comign within 2 weeks ( I thought this every day for 3 months)

And now it's become clear they are just giving everyone a big Fuck You. Probably done playing league at this point, unless they somehow change there minds and do end up releasing it in 2 years..

cufish3/22/2016, 6:20:26 PM31 votes

If high elo queues are down to ~5min, then how comes I'm having 5-15min queues regularly in gold5? And I'm not even playing ADC or MID...

Mr Prankster3/22/2016, 11:17:59 PM31 votes

So now that solo queue is pretty much dead which do you guys recommend HotS or Dota? I heard both have an actual ranking system, not like that joke Riot calls Dynamic queue.

56863992_DEL3/23/2016, 3:36:44 AM28 votes

That sounds like you never planned on releasing solo Queue. I feel lied to, Riot. You took Solo Queue away from us without asking and replaced it with Dynamic, which is unfair to Solo players and individual skill, which gave the game competitiveness and attracted many players. With this decision you are going to alienate A LOT of your player base, just to keep your nice little idea in the game. But it wouldn't be the first stupid decision by Riot....

DeadJericho3/25/2016, 4:36:02 PM27 votes

Out of that thread i read that you WONT RELEASE SOLO QUEUE (which was obvious), and thats the point where i will LEAVE your game FOREVER, thank you for more than 5 years of great gaming. Thank you for inventing such a great game (dota producers), just sad that you ruined it when you are on your highest point of career, dont forget that WE (the players) made your game what it is now, and as we supported you when your game was full of bugs and server problems (by playing) i think you should support your players too, but i see you stopped caring about what WE want a long long time ago..... I think i can speak for the the MOST OF SOLO QUEUE PLAYERS: "BYE LEAGUE OF LEGENDS!" AND MAYBE THIS IS THE POINT WHERE YOU REALISE: OH, WE DID SOMETHING WRONG!!! but i am sure the money you all earn will help you to forget it "in a month and a half from now" ;)

GUCClMANELAFLARE3/22/2016, 9:31:32 PM27 votes

I really don't want to have to stop playing league just because riot is going to fuck us over by not adding solo que, but I'm done biding my time waiting for a actual ranked que so good luck to everyone else, I'm done until solo que comes out.

WestwardTempest3/23/2016, 3:54:46 AM23 votes

What's going to happen is Riot at some point will fix the matchmaking process and get it to where they want it and THEN claim that soloq would disrupt all their hard work and throw off everything they've been working on, so not worth it.

I'm so done at this point. There's absolutely no excuse for how much lying you have done in order to make the move to dynamic q permanent. The problem is you suck at lying and aren't fooling anyone. I think you seriously are underestimating how angry dedicated players are about this. People who have spent serious amounts of money on your product, only to be given a middle finger in the form of empty promises and backpedaling.

It would be REALLY interesting to see the statistics of how many players a) stop playing or b) start messing with dynamic q because they're mad after reading this "update"

Straw Hat Loki3/22/2016, 7:39:17 PM19 votes

I am slightly confused about not releasing soloQ just yet based on the reasoning above.

Would it not be preferable to release soloQ then see how it impacts matchmaking in DynamicQ and THEN you can start fixing matchmaking/queue times/roles etc for DynamicQ. Fixing that now then releasing SoloQ will change these parameters so much that you will need to readjust DynamicQ guaranteed. Wouldn't it be better to do it once in light of the data of SoloQ impacting DynamicQ rather than improve DQ, then release SQ, and then again go back to fixing DQ.

The current approach seems to not care about/downplays SoloQ's impact on DynamicQ which is odd. UNLESS, SoloQ is not coming back at all as many people are saying above. In that case, sure fix DynamicQ but please be more clear on your stance.

vozER3/23/2016, 9:13:08 AM19 votes

That's it. I'm fucking done with Riot. If there's not gonna be SoloQueue I'm leaving the game. It's simple as that. This is not a "threat" or anything, I'm so fucking done with Riot for not listening what the majority wants. I'm glad they communicate with us, but not the way they're lying to us and not listening. When do you get it: DYNAMIC QUEUE IS KILLING THIS GAME. How many fucking times do we have to say it to you? No matter how much time you've invested in that, IT'S NOT WORKING.

Quepha3/22/2016, 6:17:34 PM17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Socrates,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=6WuZKauE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-22T18:04:52.023+0000)

When we first launched new champion select, players were getting their primary role about 70% of the time. As selection behavior changed, this number dropped. We expected players would try and game the system, but we may have underestimated the impact on matchmaking, and there are some particularly bad position combos that result in getting secondary position too frequently. Improving and properly calibrating role selection is also high priority for us.

This is really barebones information on a topic that players are very interested in. How popular are the individual roles in champ select and how does that popularity affect queue times? How often does "fill" end up each individual role? Does primary vs. secondary role actually do anything? I understand that if you select Mid/Support you will still get Support more than half the time because of the popularity disparity, but how much of a difference does it make compared to how often Support/Mid would receive Mid?

MrVulcan3/22/2016, 9:39:43 PM16 votes

How about separate mmr's for solo and dynamic with two ladders? Dota separates the mmr's, why can't LoL.

NO MY NUNU3/23/2016, 9:00:18 PM16 votes

No soloq = No reason to play this game.

Der Stechschritt3/23/2016, 12:19:50 AM16 votes

I feel punished for doing well in Dynamic Queue. If I do well, I can no longer play with my friends due to rank disparity, and as a reward for my play I get to play against premades. Solo queue is the way for me to get ranked where I want to without separating me from my friends. This is just classic PR shite from Riot to not kill their new baby (Dynamic Queue) because the old way is actually better.

FFF13/22/2016, 11:10:05 PM14 votes

That said, as we continue our work, we're concerned about the impact solo queue will have on matchmaking as a whole, and we’re assessing how to best proceed.

NO SOLOQ?

http://i.imgur.com/sPwMIz5.jpg

Mern3/22/2016, 6:16:37 PM14 votes

Dear Good Sirs at Riot,

Why on earth do we still have to lock in. There is legitimately no reason why, as long as you have selected a champion.

This is thoroughly confusing and an answer would be appreciated.