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Riot's idea of justice is fked up beyond all recognition

MonkeyMadness··6 votes·1,707 views

This is gonna be a long one, so bear with me. I'll try to post a TL;DR at the end of this.

Let me start with a bit of history about me: I used to be a complete dick in this game. I admit to that. I was the classic blame and flame. I used to say "gg" every time my team gave up firstblood, and I was a complete asshat to any of my teammates that were playing any less than perfect. I got A LOT of bans. And I mean a shitload. It was bad, and I just didn't learn from them. I was probably pretty close to a permaban, but I avoided any and all racism, sexism, and homophobic remarks, which was probably my one saving grace. But, around mid season 5, I got a 2 week timeban for saying "gg afk" (as ridiculously harsh as that might be) and then followed up with nearly 200 consecutive games of restricted chat, so I decided to take some time to seriously clean up my act. I stayed out of ranked games for about a month until I had managed to mellow out, and then I remained restriction free for a reasonable period of time. Then came the reset, where all accounts had their punishment history stricken and everyone started out on a clean slate, and I managed to avoid punishment for well over a year, a huge accomplishment for me.

Then, I hit plat elo in season 6. I sincerely wish I had just waited until the end of the season so I wouldn't be tempted to keep playing at this level. For anyone that's with me in low plat, I'm assuming you know how horrible it is. From what I've heard, low diamond is the same way, but at least you guys don't have to deal with premades up there. Anyways, I started noticing myself slipping, so I tried to dial it back and started using the mute function much more frequently to avoid tilting and raging. But then, about a week ago, I slipped a bit. A guy on my team was just being a complete jerk to everyone. Told people to drink bleach, that their parents should've drank bleach, etc, and then to cap it all off, he started to intentionally feed. I lost my cool, and I called him a c**t, then promptly muted him. Obviously, I should not have done this. But I did. I got 10 game chat restrict. Not sure 1 toxic word (not even a whole toxic sentence) warrants a 10 game chat restrict, but whatever. I took it in stride, and thought that a slight slap on the wrist would do me some good in the long run and maybe help me refocus on avoiding toxicity. And it did. I finished out my 10 games, quickly started earning hextech loot again, and went on my merry way.

Until about 2 hours ago, everything was fine. I did my best to avoid in-game conflict, muted players that were getting overly aggressive, and just tried to focus on myself when possible. But then, I got matched in the single most classic shit game you can imagine. Right at the start, I wanted to dodge. I should've dodged, but I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt and played it. He was our mid laner, and declared right at the start that he was a "one trick fiora". Unfortunately for everyone, our top laner didn't see that, and picked fiora. When the troll realized that someone had taken "his" champion, he announced that he would be trolling, and picked udyr mid. Again, I do not know why I (or someone else, for that matter) didn't dodge (btw Riot, please, we need some mechanism to stop people from doing shit like this). I muted him immediately at the start of the game. I and the fiora went into all chat and declared that udyr admitted to trolling, and requested reports if he followed through on his threat. The udyr died 3 times in the first 3 minutes (I cannot say if these were intentional deaths or not, I was focusing on myself at the time). I confirmed with the enemy team that he was trolling, and requested that they help us out with a report. Our udyr promptly afked and remained on the summoner's platform for the next ~10 minutes. The fiora and I kept the enemy team updated on the shitty situation, and for the most part, they were apologetic to our plight. The udyr came back at around 15 minutes and ran straight into my jungle and started stealing camps. Moral of the story is that he returned before the LeaverBuster could catch him, and then participated just enough that he wouldn't get caught deliberately trolling. However, given all the bullshit that was going on, our adc announced that he/she was also done, and started running down bot and shoving out the lane until he/she would get caught out alone and die. This solidified our defeat, and again, the Fiora and I went into all chat to ask for reports. Now, I am fully aware that asking for reports is "toxic" as it only inflames the situation. But we had 2 trolls. Two admitted, intentionally feeding, game-ruining trolls, and this was a platinum level ranked game. This is not a case of me raging and requesting a report because I'm salty and tilted, these were two players that admitted IN CHAT (and/or champ select) that they were intentionally going to lose the game. High elo ranked should not have these issues, and I feel rather justified in my anger towards these two. Needless to say, I got my second chat ban, 25 games.

So now I'm on strike 2 of 4. I know the next infraction will result in an automatic 14 day time ban, and anything following will be an immediate permaban. Both of the punishments mentioned above cited only single games in the Reform Card, so it would appear that I am getting punished for literally single game slip ups. What's worse, in both games, the original aggressor (troll) was not punished (or at least, I didn't receive notice that my report resulted in a ban). I have felt for a while now that Riot's behavioral analysis team engages in regular victim blaming, but now that I have fallen victim to it so severely, I honestly don't know what to do. A full year of self-reflection and working to keep my account free of restrictions has now been undone in a week thanks to these most terrible of people who seek to actively and deliberately ruin the game for others. Now, my account is flagged again, which means punishments will come MUCH faster, and seeing as how punishment history was said by a Rioter to be effectively permanent, it's really only a matter of time before I have another slip up and add that third strike to my account, putting me at serious risk of a permaban. I am now legitimately afraid to use the chat function, and I have been starting the last few games by muting all players in order to avoid even the risk of verbal conflict. But this completely and utterly defeats the purpose of the game. This is a team game, a game that is meant to employ coordination and communication (and not just pings). I feel that Riot has successfully discouraged any in-game social interaction under threat of punishment. There is NO possibility of having strikes removed (or at least, this is very unlikely to occur, according to the Rioter post I will link below) meaning that even if a player does reform, the chances are VERY high that they will still escalate up to higher levels of punishment. This is wrong on so many levels, and the only solution I see is a complete avoidance of in-game chat all together. I have already started using the /mute all function at the start of every game I play out of fear that even reading someone's toxic message might tilt me enough to say the one thing that get's me banned.

ok, TL;DR After over a year of keeping my account free of restrictions (a good achievement for me) my account is now flagged again, and I've already managed to escalate to the second tier of punishments within a week. Both punishments came from games in which I lashed out against a player who was intentionally feeding, or otherwise playing in a manner that indicated an intent to lose the game. In all reality, I was reported by these very same players. I am now afraid to use the chat function, and I feel like the game will no longer be fun at all for me, as Riot is actively discouraging social interaction by threatening with permabans. And given the oversensitive nature of the community and the ban bot, now that my account is flagged, it will be very easy for me to hit the next level of punishment. I feel like I am being punished for being the victim in this case, as I am RARELY (if ever) the initial aggressor.

Note: if Riot reads this and posts my chat log, I want everyone to remember that context is key, and in both games for which I was chat banned, there was a person that was intentionally feeding (and they even admitted this in chat, I am not just being overly critical of their kda).

here is the link to the current policy on escalating restrictions: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Boqd81O0-upcoming-upgrades-to-chat-restrictions

93 Comments

Guiboulou11 votes

Riot is not "actively discouraging social interaction by threatening with permabans". Riot is actively discouraging verbal abuse by threatening with punishments, which seems reasonable to me. Insults never made for great social interactions anyway. Besides, do you really think telling a troll to uninstall or get cancer will make them stop? If anything, it fuels them.

Good luck, man.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

So, you're telling me that bringing active trolls to the attention of the enemy team in order to more quickly get said trolls banned is banworthy in and of itself. See the issue with this statement?

The fact is, in the real world, if someone is attacking you, you have the RIGHT to defend yourself. In this game, trolling and other forms of abuse are equivalent to assault in the real world. Defending oneself via requesting reports for these kinds of people should be ENCOURAGED, not punished, as they are the in-game equivalent of asking for help.

Guiboulou8 votes

First of all, what matters is the amount of games one was reported in, not how many times one was reported in a single game. Thus, there is no reason to publicly call trolls out.

I would also like to point out that, in real life, you have the right to defend yourself if your safety and/or well-being are threatened. You can't use the self-defence argument against someone who's running it down mid.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

I'm not sure that's the case. I think it's based on report density during a given timeframe that triggers the ban bot.

Guiboulou9 votes

It is based on the percentage of games you have recently been reported in. Rioters have confirmed it multiple times.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=dBcmRkNo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-22T17:41:28.314+0000) I'm happy to shed some light on this.

It only takes 1 report for a game to be reviewed. Punishments (for verbal types) are based entirely on the contents of YOUR chat.

Getting reports beyond 1 does not increase the chance or speed of a game being reviewed. So, the next time you encounter that player spewing off hate speech, just mute them and report them after. There is no reason to ask other players to report them.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Fine, but that's not the point here. The real issue is that I am being banned for defending myself against trolls, and this is like telling a rape victim to dress more conservatively. Victim blaming at its finest. And I am not the first to bring up this grievance. People even commented it in the Rioter post I linked above.

Guiboulou5 votes

{quoted} I would also like to point out that, in real life, you have the right to defend yourself if your safety and/or well-being are threatened. You can't use the self-defence argument against someone who's running it down mid.

Would you stop making terrible comparisons? Self-defence does not apply here. If your well-being is at risk because of a troll in League, you might wanna reconsider your life choices.

Also, victim blaming is telling the victim it was their fault they got assaulted. No one is saying it's your fault you got trolled. All that is being said is that it is not okay to throw insults at trolls. You do not fight fire with fire. -_-

MonkeyMadness1 votes

It does. Trolls are ruining my experience. I am attempting to defend myself from being tilted by getting as many players as possible to report the troll in the hopes that Riot takes report density into account. If they don't, well I'm not sure what to say. Because that logic will dictate that rather innocent players will eventually get banned for silly things like cursing (technically reportable, but what person over 12 years old really cares).

Guiboulou2 votes

Self-defence IRL serves the purpose of stopping or slowing down the abuse. Let's say someone is beating you up. By fighting back, you are limiting the damage they're inflicting you. By yelling and cursing at a troll, you are not making the situation any better. Moreover, as I said before, there is no point in demanding that multiple players report some troll. Your single report should and will be enough to get the game flagged and reviewed.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

If that's true, I was not aware of it. The history of this game has always been based around multiple reports in a single game holding more weight. I'm not actually sure I even like this idea, as having multiple reports may indicate a more severe offense. But honestly, both systems have their pros and cons, so let's not debate that.

The real issue is, Riot is actively ignoring the context of bans. There is a reason why in real criminal court, we have a jury determining guilt or innocence instead of just one person, and why they examine ALL evidence, not just the evidence that implies guilt. Riot is acting as judge, jury, and executioner, and this is a problem. They have demonstrated clear bias in that they prefer to ban verbal offenders to a much higher extent than trolls and other players that actively engage in behavior indicative of intentionally losing a game. In my opinion (and the opinions of many other competitive players) this second group is FAR worse for game health than people like me. I'm not saying everything I do is justified. I lose my cool from time to time, and in previous seasons, I welcomed the occasional chat ban. They served to force me to calm down and refocus on the game instead of on the chat. But the fact that I am now on the fast track to a permaban for lashing out against a troll is utterly ridiculous. THAT is what I'm protesting here. If Riot wants to keep putting me on restricted chat for this, then fine. I can deal with that. What I can't deal with is losing my account while someone who actively intentionally feeds is allowed to do so restriction-free.

Guiboulou3 votes

You think they're allowed to do so restriction-free, but they most likely aren't. If they keep trolling, they will eventually get banned. You only get the report feedback pop up if your report was the last one to get them banned. ^_^ So just because the system doesn't tell you doesn't mean they haven't been or won't be punished. :P Just keep that in mind. I'd recommend venting out loud next time you feel the need to lash out. Keep the chat clean and you'll eventually go back down in the punishment ladder. Don't let trolls get the best out of you, it's what they want.

Best of luck in the fields of justice!

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Do you have any idea how many people will say "gg trolling" or something like that, and when you they get the influx of "get banned" or "report so and so for trolling" they almost always say something like "I've been doing this for years and I've never even gotten a warning".

The fact is, it's hard for Riot to get conclusive "evidence" for int feed, and other non-verbal trolling. Even though it's obvious for everyone in game, unless the person actually runs down a lane to die at tower, it's virtually impossible for riot to detect it. If they do the shit like solo push bot lane until someone comes in and kills them (by far the most common int feed method I've seen this season), Riot will give them the benefit of the doubt that they are either just farming or perhaps split pushing, and pardon them.

Correction: it's not IMPOSSIBLE for Riot to detect non-verbal trolling (int feed, troll picking because a player didn't get their preferred role, etc), they just don't want to expend the necessary resources to catch players that do this. If there was an in-game report option that perhaps summoned a moderator to watch the troll, or even some option that allowed the game to be recorded and submitted with a trolling report, it would DRAMATICALLY cut down on the verbal in-game "toxicity" usually associated with people retaliating to trolls.

Guiboulou3 votes

Listen, I was trying to put an end to this conversation. You're clearly set on claiming that Riot is not even trying and is the big bad wolf. We will most likely never agree. Oh, and just because someone says they've been "doing this for years" doesn't mean it's true. Plus, if they trolled in like three games out of their last thousand, they're probably gonna get away with it unless the feeding was extremely obvious. A single flagged game will very rarely trigger any punishment.

One more thing... How many trolls do you get daily? I've played with maybe two trolls in the past 6 months (and I play almost on a daily basis). I feel you're making this out to be much, much bigger of a deal than it actually is. To get a 14-day ban for verbal abuse, you need to be abusive in multiple games. So unless you repeatedly lashed out at an incredible amount of trolls, I have a hard time believing you're a positive player...

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Plus, if they trolled in like three games out of their last thousand, they're probably gonna get away with it unless the feeding was extremely obvious.

A single instance of int feed in a ranked game should result in nothing short of an immediate permaban. It shows immaturity beyond any other offence, and a willingness to cause as much harm to game health as possible. In over 5000 games over the past 5-6 years, I have NEVER done ANYTHING to intentionally lose even a normal game. To hold anyone to less of a standard is overtly insulting to the hard work put forth by players like me that try to take the game (or at least ranked) seriously.

One more thing... How many trolls do you get daily? I've played with maybe two trolls in the past 6 months (and I play almost on a daily basis).

You ever playing in low plat in season 6? It's awful. Dynamic Queue has resulted in some of the worst boosting imaginable, and tempers run hot to the point where people will frequently give up at the drop of a hat and just afk farm for the remainder of the game in an attempt to either tilt their team into surrendering asap, or just allowing the enemy team to easily push down mid in a 5v4. It happens more than you might think at this level, and that makes it all the more frustrating, as this is supposed to be "high elo" where the game is supposed to be truly competitive.

HexaDecimel5 votes

Pls stop with the whole report density thing.

If you get 20 reports over 5 games the system only recognizes that you got reported in the past 5 games. It would be no different than getting reported once per game 5 times.

That is why requesting reports is considered toxic and reportable. It serves no purpose and is pointless.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

First of all, what matters is the amount of games one was reported in, not how many times one was reported in a single game. Thus, there is no reason to publicly call trolls out.

I would also like to point out that, in real life, you have the right to defend yourself if your safety and/or well-being are threatened. You can't use the self-defence argument against someone who's running it down mid.

So if I decide to bring someone despair only because I can, that isn't ruining someone's emotional well-being, not abusive in any shape or form, and is warranted?

Guiboulou1 votes

I never said these people shouldn't be punished. I simply said self-defence doesn't apply here. Insulting a troll will not make them cause less harm. In fact, insulting them usually fuels them. You lashing out at a troll is not self-defence, because you aren't exactly defending yourself. You aren't attempting to put an end to their behaviour.

EDIT: Besides, trolls tend to thrive off of their teammates' anger. Showing them you're indifferent (even if you in fact aren't) will most likely lead to them getting bored with trolling, whereas they would find it hilarious to see you rage. :P

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

I never said these people shouldn't be punished. I simply said self-defence doesn't apply here. Insulting a troll will not make them cause less harm. In fact, insulting them usually fuels them. You lashing out at a troll is not self-defence, because you aren't exactly defending yourself. You aren't attempting to put an end to their behaviour.

EDIT: Besides, trolls tend to thrive off of their teammates' anger. Showing them you're indifferent (even if you in fact aren't) will most likely lead to them getting bored with trolling, whereas they would find it hilarious to see you rage. :P

Well what you said before completely suggested differently but okay.

Guiboulou2 votes

I think you misunderstood. I said you couldn't use the self-defence argument. I think trolls still need to be punished, but there is no need to call them out in chat as a single report holds as much weight as nine reports. What matters is how many games they got reported in, not how many times they got reported in a single game. :)

EDIT: English isn't my native language, so I might have made my arguments a little confusing at times. Apologies if this if where the misunderstandings are coming from.

Zezockary2 votes

Multiple reports in one game only count towards the game being flagged. If nine people report you in one game it is the same as one person reporting you in that game. That is why it is considered harassment. You are actively trying to get other people to see that person in a negative light.

As for your example a few posts ago of two people being punishable, I personally don't think anyone would have an issue with the second person's response other than that it has nothing to do with the game they are playing. It probably wouldn't be reported other than by a troll with no report weight, and probably wouldn't be punished even if someone with more weight reported him. Now if there were more messages added to the mix it would probably be a different story.

Kei1435 votes

where's my tldr :( it was a fine read until that wall of text.

EDIT: Blah, you do have tldr, I already skipped the whole message at that point.

that tldr isn't even a short form with that 2nd wall of text.

If my skimming served me right, you are angry that the "trolls" and inters didn't get punsihed cos you didn't see a notification.

It seems like to know the basics of the current behavioral system, so I guess you know that you only get a punishment notification when the game you reported the troll in was the game that punished the person, and not when it is building towards the case.

You may already know that Riot is looking to improve the behavioral system's visibility, but it won't happen until after the new client is up and running smoothly.

Hopefully we'll get features like seeing how effective our reports are and notifications if our reports got someone punished down the road.

Astôlfo2 votes

Context is not key. It is entirely irrelevant. If you were toxic and you got punished, you do not get to complain. It does not matter what anyone else did.

Show chat logs.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

This is incorrect. Let's given an example: say someone says in chat something like "you and your entire family should kill themselves" (a fairly common thing to be said in my experience), and a player responds with "actually, my brother just committed suicide last week, so fuck off". Technically, by the "rules" both players should be banned. If you are telling me it is justifiable for the second player (the obvious victim) to be punished, then you have a serious problem. To think like this requires a degree of self-righteousness that I cannot even fathom.

Astôlfo2 votes

You are incorrect.

Both players still deserve a punishment.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

You are incorrect.

Both players still deserve a punishment.

The only thing 'wrong' with the second player is that they said "f off." In context though, that is a completely understandable reaction from many humans in today's age. We are not robots so I don't think you have a valid point at all. I don't think you understand how trolls operate either. A trolls job is to make you angry through any means possible. This means they will try anything immoral, unethical, disrespectful, rude, and etc to get you angry. Since you will be stuck with this person for 20 minutes to sometimes even hours, you can't expect people to hold in anger and be 'rational'. Rational humans today can get angry just like any every other era. That is why trolling exists. It works. If it didn't work, people wouldn't do it.

Also, it is necessary to have context due to bans that may have been done by a person who may have read the chat logs incorrectly. If saying the f word is a punishable offense for it being the only bad thing they did in the entire game, I think you have problems yourself for not understanding how humans operate.

ModPrandine2 votes

{quoted}

The only thing 'wrong' with the second player is that they said "f off." In context though, that is a completely understandable reaction from many humans in today's age. We are not robots so I don't think you have a valid point at all.

Also, it is necessary to have context due to bans that may have been done by a person who may have read the chat logs incorrectly. If saying the f word is a punishable offense for it being the only bad thing they did in the entire game, I think you have problems yourself for not understanding how humans operate.

90% of the time context doesn't matter as it wouldn't change the verdict of a case in any way, shape or form. If anything it might just reveal that the defendant was actually the one who started/instigated the poor behavior in the first place.

For your other argument, adult language by itself is not the problem, it's directing it at others with the intention of being a jerk that's the problem. Also, though it's far more common to see people complain about verbal abuse bans than gameplay trolling/griefing bans both kinds do indeed get punished. That being said though however, just because Person A acts up doesn't mean that you can act up and have your negative behavior ignored. From Understanding the Tribunal:

1) What's the point of having a language filter if I can get banned for 'adult' language? a) We aren't out to punish players who use adult language; in fact, very few players are ever banned for saying stuff like "f***, I missed that skill shot" or "damn, fing close game!" However, the language filter is not an excuse to verbally abuse someone in the game. When you verbally abuse or harass someone by calling them "fing *****" or "ngger noob", that's when you've crossed the line and will be punished by the Tribunal. I've said this before and I'll say it again, we aren't trying to clean online games of adult language; we're trying to reform or get rid of jerks who like to verbally abuse and harass other players.

4) That player in my game was far worse than me. Why am I banned??? a) I'll keep this one simple: retaliation isn't OK. Reacting to a toxic player by being toxic just incites that player to be even worse--it also ruins the game for up to 8 other players. It is far, far worse to watch two people yelling at each other all game than it is to watch 1 player ranting into blank space. Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what? Finding someone worse doesn't justify your behavior or justify retaliation. We expect more out of our players. What players often don't realize is... those other players in your game that you thought were worse? Nearly 100% of the time, those players were banned even before you were. If someone is being toxic, just report them and move on. If you retaliate, both of you will be banned. It's really that simple.

rtbf2216514122 votes

{quoted}

90% of the time context doesn't matter as it wouldn't change the verdict of a case in any way, shape or form.

The only thing you proved is how irrational Riot is with their punishment system. Sometimes retaliation is bannable when it goes too far. However, you can't expect people to act rationally if someone was to say, "I'll kill your wife." and that person suggests they found a way to trace your location.

I don't see people being punished for brutally beating Sadam irl just because he killed many people. So, where is your point? Were they 'jerks' for beating him up when all they had to do was either kill him or put him in a cell? If so, why were they not punished? Anything you provide will not suffice and my point will still stand.

Verbally abusive and harassment isn't a one time thing. That isn't the definition. It's a consistent time of doing the action.

Also, the worst part?

"Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what?"

Tell me how this looks out of context? Now put it back in context. You will never read it the same. You will read that you shouldn't retaliate but also there will be trolls in the game. This paragraph tells me they gave up on moderating behavior seriously when I take it out of context and put it back in.

It would be one thing if you were not stuck with the person. That would be when retaliation is punishable. However, League doesn't work like many games. You can be stuck with the same person for hours who may psychologically, mentally, or emotionally torture you. The retaliation has a completely different punishment when you think about that. Time is something that should be taken into context. If I tie you with a rope and call you a useless person vs not tying you up and calling you a useless person, which person do you think can just walk away and be less affected? Which person will end up being angrier? Which position is more toxic?

ModPrandine3 votes

{quoted}

The only thing you proved is how irrational Riot is with their punishment system. Sometimes retaliation is bannable when it goes too far. However, you can't expect people to act rationally if someone was to say, "I'll kill your wife." and that person suggests they found a way to trace your location.

Riot only punishes people who have a history of consistently poor behavior and even then the punishments start off very light in most cases to allow people the chance and the opportunity to change their behavior for the better. This is because they know that people will sometimes slip up and rage at others. Are they bad people? No. Did they make a bad choice? Yes.

I don't see people being punished for brutally beating Sadam irl just because he killed many people. So, where is your point? Were they 'jerks' for beating him up when all they had to do was either kill him or put him in a cell? If so, why were they not punished? Anything you provide will not suffice and my point will still stand.

Poor analogy. This is a video game, not real life, though regardless you are interacting with real people and behaving like you're above the rules is the quickest way to get brought down and back to Earth via a punishment. Also, your final comment indicates two types of attitudes: the "I don't care what you say because I'm always right and you're always wrong" attitude and the "my way or the highway" attitude. If you're not willing to see other peoples viewpoints then don't come onto the forums expecting to not be criticized for that closed-minded attitude.

rtbf2216514122 votes

{quoted}

Riot only punishes people who have a history of consistently poor behavior and even then the punishments start off very light in most cases to allow people the chance and the opportunity to change their behavior for the better. This is because they know that people will sometimes slip up and rage at others. Are they bad people? No. Did they make a bad choice? Yes.

Poor analogy. This is a video game, not real life, though regardless you are interacting with real people and behaving like you're above the rules is the quickest way to get brought down and back to Earth via a punishment. Also, your final comment indicates two different attitudes: the "I don't care what you say because I'm always right and you're always wrong" attitude and the "my way or the highway" attitude. If you're not willing to see other peoples viewpoints then don't come onto the forums expecting to not be criticized for that closed-minded attitude.

You're the only one being closed-minded. Never did I say retaliation in general was good. Never did I say I was above the rules either. I do want realistic punishments though. How about you read before you call someone closed-minded? It may help you get 'back to Earth.'

You're afraid of being proven wrong which is why you just completely ignored the Sadam point. The context is the same. One person is considered bad by most Americans and the other people are vengeful.

There is also a thing called "Crime of Passion" and that crime get's less punishment than a person who plans out their crime of murder. It's just an example and I don't necessary agree with it. However, it exists and proves your point false. If I wasn't 'open-minded' I wouldn't have brought up "Crime of Passion" in the first place.

However, you clearly haven't read a thing I've said so have fun talking to yourself.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

It's people like this that make me not want to live on this planet anymore (insert meme here). Our society has become this cesspool of oversensitive self-righteous children that try to get offended at every little thing. Riot has created a society of victims with this latest iteration of restrictions. The only way to consistently avoid punishment is to always act as though you are being personally victimized, or to refuse to use the chat function all together. In my opinion, both of these things are generally worse for the game/community than the original offense.

Astôlfo1 votes

And here it goes on talking about the self-righteousness argument again without knowing anything. Sigh...

ModPrandine1 votes

{quoted}

It's people like this that make me not want to live on this planet anymore (insert meme here). Our society has become this cesspool of oversensitive self-righteous children that try to get offended at every little thing. Riot has created a society of victims with this latest iteration of restrictions. The only way to consistently avoid punishment is to always act as though you are being personally victimized, or to refuse to use the chat function all together. In my opinion, both of these things are generally worse for the game/community than the original offense.

From WIkipedia:

Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. Self-righteous individuals are often intolerant of the opinions and behaviors of others.

As for your claim that may work for you but it certainly isn't the only way that others can avoid being punished. Take me for example, I've never been punished because I don't need to see myself as the victim 24/7 nor do I need to avoid using chat altogether. When I use the chat I use it for gameplay related chat (i.e. fizz flash down, mid mia, ult up in 20, etc.) and also for chatting with my teammates and/or enemies in general in a neutral or positive manner. Also if I make a mistake I'll generally admit that I made a mistake and apologize for it in the chat as well also.

If not using the chat is what it takes for some people not to be a jerk then so be it.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Riot only punishes people who have a history of consistently poor behavior and even then the punishments start off very light in most cases to allow people the chance and the opportunity to change their behavior for the better.

Here's the problem, though. First, it doesn't take much to get put on the shit list. A couple bad games in close proximity is usually enough to trigger the first ban. This is exactly what happened to me. Just had a bad day where I got tilted and kept playing. And to tell me that it is my "responsibility" to stop playing when I get tilted due to trolls is like saying that it's my job to not be afraid of terrorists. See how that's 100% moronical? And I don't deny that I probably deserved the first chat restriction. It's whatever. 10 games is no big deal, and it served as a reminder to keep my behavior in check.

The problem is that now my account is flagged, and the 25 game chat restrict came only about a week later. This is the problem I have with the system. Riot doesn't care if I reform or not, this has become a strictly punitive system. I WILL receive a permanent ban at some point. Maybe next year, maybe a few years down the road, but the fact of the matter is, I will have a slip up at some point, and when I do, Riot will give me the next tier of punishment. I have 0 opportunity to reform and I have no way to remove the "strikes" against my account. Riot has said they are permanent, which means my account will forever face a MUCH higher degree of scrutiny than "normal" players, regardless of how hard I work to keep my behavior in check (and I've worked pretty damn hard over the years).

ModPrandine2 votes

{quoted}

Here's the problem, though. First, it doesn't take much to get put on the shit list. A couple bad games in close proximity is usually enough to trigger the first ban. This is exactly what happened to me. Just had a bad day where I got tilted and kept playing. And to tell me that it is my "responsibility" to stop playing when I get tilted due to trolls is like saying that it's my job to not be afraid of terrorists. See how that's 100% moronical? And I don't deny that I probably deserved the first chat restriction. It's whatever. 10 games is no big deal, and it served as a reminder to keep my behavior in check.

It's not moronical to expect people to act in a civilized manner and to take responsibility for their own actions. By simply taking a break when you get frustrated (as hard as that can be at times) you decrease the chance that you'll rage at someone for not performing up to your standards.

The problem is that now my account is flagged, and the 25 game chat restrict came only about a week later. This is the problem I have with the system. Riot doesn't care if I reform or not, this has become a strictly punitive system. I WILL receive a permanent ban at some point. Maybe next year, maybe a few years down the road, but the fact of the matter is, I will have a slip up at some point, and when I do, Riot will give me the next tier of punishment. I have 0 opportunity to reform and I have no way to remove the "strikes" against my account. Riot has said they are permanent, which means my account will forever face a MUCH higher degree of scrutiny than "normal" players, regardless of how hard I work to keep my behavior in check (and I've worked pretty damn hard over the years).

Funny, I've been playing since the Season 2 Snowdown Showdown and have never once been warned nor banned. The reason for this is because I don't go out of my way to intentionally say or do things that I know will just tick people off. Players do have the opportunity to reform, but they actually have to put in the actual time and effort to do so. As you show a genuine reform effort your account will gradually get into a better standing to the point where you can actually drop down to less severe punishment tiers (i.e. from a 25-game chat restriction to a 10-game chat restriction and so on) should you get punished again. From the Instant Feedback System FAQ:

BUT WHAT IF I REFORM? IS IT POSSIBLE TO GO DOWN THE ESCALATION PATH? Yes! Players who show consistent reform or show positive behavior in their games will help heal their accounts reputation.

WHAT CAN I DO TO IMPROVE OR REFORM?

  • Adhering to the Summoner's Code in every game you play is the best way to enjoy League of Legends and create a positive experience for other Summoners in your game. If you do not respond to any negativity and only chat constructively in game, you will not be punished by the Instant Feedback System.
  • If you want more details on the positive behavior that every summoner should practice you can check out Behavior Worthy of a Champion
  • Should you encounter a particularly toxic player, remember that silence is a powerful tool. You can utilize the /mute and /ignore functions in game to avoid viewing further negativity. You can also make use of the Smart Ping feature for communication with the rest of your team.
  • Remember that you are fully responsible for all activity on your account, and if suspensions or bans are incurred, we will not be able to modify them.

Yes people slip up, which is why people don't get punished for having a bad day/game or two under normal circumstances. Just because you have trouble reforming and keeping your behavior in check doesn't mean that it can't be done.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

By simply taking a break

So by making the victim take extra precaution so as not to be victimized further. Sure sounds like victim blaming to me...

Players do have the opportunity to reform, but they actually have to put in the actual time and effort to do so.

I put in literally YEARS of effort, and was still banned for 14 days for saying nothing but "gg afk" (I am literally not kidding, that was the only toxic line in the chat log when I requested chat logs). Once you are flagged, regardless of how valid it was (and in my case it was valid for many years) you are fucked. Even if you reform, single offenses get you banned. This is proven fact, as anyone that has a long history of being banned. It takes very little to be punished after your account is flagged, regardless of how much you've reformed.

As for the permanence of the "flag" please read this comment by a Rioter http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Boqd81O0-upcoming-upgrades-to-chat-restrictions?comment=00030000

Your statement as to how removing the "flag" works is equally vague and disheartening as this comment. No further information was given as to how this reform process works, meaning that Riot simply doesn't care. Punishment in League has become strictly punitive. Reform is no longer the goal.

Astôlfo3 votes

The word "fuck" is not punishable in itself. It is punishable when directed towards someone else with a negative intended meaning towards another person. Context is irrelevant.

You are free to mute them if you wish, and then just report after the game ends. You are always 100% in control of your own actions. You are the one that decides to type and press the enter key to send the message. If you choose to send a message that breaks the rules, you deserve a punishment.

Simple as that.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

You are free to mute them if you wish, and then just report after the game ends. You are always 100% in control of your own actions.

This logic is not only completely retarded, it's 100% toxic. You are quite literally blaming the victim for simply not ignoring the offense. This is easily the most self-righteous comment on this thread, and there are a lot of self-righteous people here already...

Astôlfo3 votes

You are incorrect. I am blaming the other person for not being mature enough to simply mute and ignore them and act like a civilized human being. You know, instead of retaliating in a way that makes them just as bad. Dismissed.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

This is literally the definition of victim blaming. You are placing responsibility on me to avoid the troll instead of placing responsibility on the troll to stop trolling in the first place.

Astôlfo3 votes

Except no, both of you are equally at fault. The troll's irresponsibility and incapability of acting maturely is his fault. Your fault would be the incapability of simply ignoring him and retaliating back in an equally negative way.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Except that the goal of trolling is to incite rage and provoke a response. Falling victim to this should not get me banned. This would be like punishing people for being afraid of terrorists because striking fear into people is their goal, and to fear them is to allow them to win. Do you see how this is a logical fallacy?

I'm not saying that retaliation against trolls should be encouraged, but it also shouldn't be so strictly punished. Also, and this is a very important point, in almost every case, the only person who would report this retaliation is the troll him/herself. So, Riot is viewing the report of a person who's sole goal is to ruin the game equal to the report of anyone else, and this is just wrong.

Astôlfo2 votes

So then you have let the trolls win by retaliating in an equally rule-breaking way. "Falling victim to this should not get me banned." Incorrect. You should get banned. "This would be like punishing people for being afraid of terrorists because striking fear into people is their goal, and to fear them is to allow them to win. Do you see how this is a logical fallacy?" Incorrect. Flawed analogy. Dismissed.

"I'm not saying that retaliation against trolls should be encouraged, but it also shouldn't be so strictly punished. Also, and this is a very important point, in almost every case, the only person who would report this retaliation is the troll him/herself. So, Riot is viewing the report of a person who's sole goal is to ruin the game equal to the report of anyone else, and this is just wrong." False reports hold no merit. You can report as well. And if you don't retaliate, his report will be a false one. Simple as that. End of story.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

You are entirely supporting victim blaming in this case, and I find this to be utterly unacceptable.

False reports hold no merit. You can report as well. And if you don't retaliate, his report will be a false one.

Thank you for contradicting yourself. According to your own logic, I deserve to be banned for my "retaliation" ergo, these reports are not false. And unfortunately, Riot agrees with you. They are, however, being filed by the most deplorable kind of player present in this game, and yet they hold equal weight to those of any other player. If someone is found guilty of trolling, their report rights should be immediately removed, and any reports they file should be deleted. Trolls exists to incite rage, and then get people banned for acting on it. Why Riot ENCOURAGES this by following through on those punishments is borderline unethical.

Here are the facts, and to dispute these are foolish: trolls (ie int feeders, champ select trolls, afk farmers other than nasus, etc) are the MOST toxic group of players in the game. They seek to actively ruin the game for all other players they encounter, and they do so intentionally. As long as players like this are allowed to continue playing (and they clearly are being allowed), this game will be among the most toxic in history. If trolls are removed, players like myself will have nothing to tilt us so hard, and cases of verbal toxicity will plummet. This is a fact that Riot ignores, because catching trolls is not easy, and they would rather take the easy way out than to cure toxicity at its source.

Astôlfo1 votes

You obviously do not get it, so I will not waste my time any further trying to explain it to you. Disagree all you want. You will remain in the wrong. Simple as that. Case closed.

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

I haven't read the whole thing because I'm late and there's quite a lot, but I noticed multiple times you are referring to yourself as the "victim". Apologies if this has been said;

Have you not considered the other people that have to put up with you arguing with a troll? They do not want to listen to either of you, and it is very likely the players not involved are reporting you for being an annoyance. The act of you engaging a toxic player in a toxic manner makes you no different than him, and creates victims of the other players just the same as the initiator's behavior. This is why you just need to mute and report them. If you cannot get through to subside a player's toxic behavior, the best thing you can do is leave them alone, and the worst is to join in.

TrulyBland2 votes

No he's blaming the victim for not handling it properly.

"She was dressing slutty" = Victim blaming "She broke into his house and cut off his balls while he was sleeping" = Blaming the victim for her own crime of vigilantism

Being a victim does not make you immune to punishment for your own actions.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

"She broke into his house and cut off his balls while he was sleeping" = Blaming the victim for her own crime of vigilantism

Here's the problem with you people. You somehow think THIS is victim blaming. This shows with undeniable proof that you fail to grasp basic concepts of justice. I do not care how bad the guy treated her, if she cut off his balls (other than in self-defense, but let's be real, if you are defending yourself, this is not a wise maneuver, nor is it even feasible to think of), she deserves one hell of a prison sentence.

This mentality of "just mute them" is entirely victim-blaming. You are telling me that it's MY responsibility to ignore the troll, and not the troll's responsibility to not troll in the fist place. This is the DEFINITION of victim blaming.

TrulyBland3 votes

It is the trolls responsibility to not troll in the first place.

And it is your responsibility to ignore said troll rather than making everybody even more miserable by starting to flame him. You want to talk about wise maneuvers? Yelling at a troll is not a wise manevuer. The whole reason people troll is to make you mad.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

This is asinine. Stop with your self-righteous "holier than thou" attitude and accept the fact that everyone gets angry, especially when something about which they are passionate is deliberately ruined.

Also, consider this: who do you think reports people for yelling at trolls? Other victims? Probably not, because chances are, they yelled too. No, it's the TROLL that reports you for yelling at him/her. So basically, Riot is weighing the reports of these deplorable players equally to those reports against them. Is this fair? I say not even slightly.

TrulyBland4 votes

And that's where you just start blindly making assumptions. A lot of people report both, because yelling at a troll A) Encourages the troll, since you give him exactly what he wants. B) Distracts you from your own game and thus reduces the chance to win even further C) Is likely to result in somebody else getting distracted, starting to yell at you for yelling and voilá the cycle begins anew.

There is absolutely nothing positive about yelling at a troll, and a lot of negative.

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