Lets discuss: (un)/intentional duo Q-ing with a rule breaker

Arcade Andrew·Jan 19, 2017·3 votes·1,593 views

So I saw an interesting post in this thread About challenger rewards Where a player asked the question "Can I duo Q with my friend who is a scripter, as long as I obey the rules and dont cheat or flame?" Several players quickly jumped on him saying NO THATS BANNABLE, whilst several others noted that Riot cant ban you for Duo-ing with a flamer, and at its base, youre not scripting so they can really punish you for anything.

Other Players also noted that if riot started banning you for who you played with, that some players might not know somebody is scripting and they cant always know if a friend would flame or not.

So I wanted to make this thread discussing players who intentionally DUO with rule breakes, aswell as players who unintentionally play with a rule breaker.

Should they be punished? Should it be allowed? what will Riot say on the matter?

lets discuss!

22 Comments

Deep Terror NamiJan 19, 20171 votes

Pretty sure I've seen someone banned for intentionally queueing with a scripter before, though this was a long time ago if I did (no source). If it wasn't intentional then of course there should be no punishment, otherwise Riot may as well just ban everyone randomly matched with the person; I mean this for cheaters, not "rule breakers" in general (in no situation should another player be punished for queueing with just a toxic player).

Arcade AndrewJan 19, 20171 votes

If that were the case, players could easily use a third party chat software to discuss Q-ing with them on purpose, then play "dumb" in league and when riot tries to ban them. Plus if you can Q with people who flame on purpose, (lets say they taunt the enemy team constantly) what about in that case?

Magical PlayerJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yAMZMchT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T21:28:18.137+0000)

If that were the case, players could easily use a third party chat software to discuss Q-ing with them on purpose, then play "dumb" in league and when riot tries to ban them. Plus if you can Q with people who flame on purpose, (lets say they taunt the enemy team constantly) what about in that case?

Discussing only scripting, i queue with toxic players. I call them friends...... Toxicity is resting on each individual. If you queue 40/50 past games with a scripter clearly you knew kinda depends on scale

Edit done Also playing dumb, wouldn't recommend doing that with rito. If you haven't noticed the forums are about people trying to play it off as "dumb" as why they aren't to blame for their punishment

Kei143Jan 20, 20171 votes

they aren't playing dumb, they just aren't smart about evidences (or manipulating evidence) Riot has.

Deep Terror NamiJan 19, 20171 votes

I edited in about toxic behavior (flaming), was late on that (watching EU LCS).

players could easily use a third party chat software to discuss Q-ing with them on purpose, then play "dumb"

There is nothing that can be done about that. If you can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, then there's nothing to be done about it. Proving the intent is extremely important so as to not punish innocent players; it's an unfortunate reason as to why punishing intentional feeders is such a hard thing to do.

Arcade AndrewJan 19, 20171 votes

But then that leaves the issue that, the player intentionally duo-ing isnt by definition rule breaking on their account. its morally wrong, but they arent scripting or whatnot should they still be punished?

Deep Terror NamiJan 19, 20171 votes

If you can't prove the intent (again, reasonable doubt, not absolute proof) there is no reason to punish them. Punishing the cheater's duo without that is the same as punishing their random teammates.

Arcade AndrewJan 19, 20171 votes

thats my point, Thats why I want to discuss this, because it sounds like an issue, but it cant be enforced because youd need to prove intent, and even with intent provided, should it still be an offense considering there is no current rule against it, assuming the partner followed every other rule

Deep Terror NamiJan 19, 20173 votes

Not all issues have possible, reasonable solutions. I feel this is one that has none.

Arcade AndrewJan 19, 20171 votes

True, but it would be interesting to discuss among the community aswell as see what the reds might have to say regarding the issue with all the new tech they are developing

AeroWaffleJan 19, 20171 votes

What tech would there be to develop?

Riot can't scan the entire internet for the initial contact and agreement that they are queuing together to dodge detection.

Riot can't assume every person that queued with someone scripting knew about the scripting without some sort of chat saying so between the two in the client.

Arcade AndrewJan 20, 20171 votes

Analysis tech, as in they see the win percentage rate of the supposed scripter, and win percentage rate of the duo, the % of games played together etc. and what riot could do is maybe a warning system first off "Hey it appears youve been playing with a player for a larger percent of games and that player has been accused of using scripts, please avoid playing with this player or you might face consequences"

and riot would give the player name, which would directly inform the players that they are playing with a possible cheater, and if they continue to duo with the scripter, and he is banned for it, they knew he was possibly a cheater and they knowingly played with him/her. It wouldnt get all the games but after say 5-10 games with a duo partner and they go 20/0 each game hitting every CS and you win all ten. riot could throw out the warning to the duo partner...

also if it turns out the partner is just insanely good riot could send a message saying "Hey it looks like your friend 'playerx' is in the clear! feel free to play with them again!"

and as a motive to stop cheating: if the friend is banned "Hey looks like that person you played with ended up being banned for scripting, remember if you play with somebody friend or foe that looks to be using third party software to win a game, please report them!"

AeroWaffleJan 20, 20171 votes

"Hey it appears youve been playing with a player for a larger percent of games and that player has been accused of using scripts, please avoid playing with this player or you might face consequences"

If they have already confirmed the person is using scripts, they would ban the person.

If they haven't confirmed, the message means nothing since it could be sent to someone not scripting.

Arcade AndrewJan 20, 20171 votes

this would be a message sent to the friend of a player who has hit the warning signs of possible scripter. Im pretty sure with each person reported/accused of using bots has a real person look at the account before a perma ban is set in stone (for any offense) because riot state they dont want an automated system handing out bans (IE the 14 day and perma) because if an automated system did that, theyd have to continually run accountability checks, and deal with false positives, if they keep a real person behind bans, theres less of a chance of error, and it wont be just up criteria but a human will have input as to wether the report was valid, the circumstances behind it etc

AeroWaffleJan 20, 20171 votes

The idea of a warning getting sent out when someone is suspected of scripting is problematic and can have quite a few negative side effects for both possibilities.

If the main person is not scripting, all this message does is panic the friend and cause unneeded stress between the friend and the suspected player.

If the main person is scripting, the message gives better information to the scriptor about which of their scripts sent up the flag. Riot typically bans cheaters in waves so that it's harder to tell which script/software is detectable.

Arcade AndrewJan 20, 20171 votes

The message wouldnt be available to the cheater.

Perhaps the message could say a warning that any contact with the friend until banishment/innocence could result in punishment of the added player, but then that leaves third party comms ...

AeroWaffleJan 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yAMZMchT,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-20T03:26:20.978+0000)

The message wouldnt be available to the cheater.

Perhaps the message could say a warning that any contact with the friend until banishment/innocence could result in punishment of the added player, but then that leaves third party comms ...

The message would be presented to the "friend". Which, if the message was relevant, would already be in cahoots with the scripter. Saying that any contact would be punished is useless, they would just use an outside method.

Meanwhile, if the person wasn't actually scripting, you just told two friends they can't talk to each other.

Magical PlayerJan 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Andrew,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=yAMZMchT,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-19T21:34:59.231+0000)

But then that leaves the issue that, the player intentionally duo-ing isnt by definition rule breaking on their account. its morally wrong, but they arent scripting or whatnot should they still be punished?

If intent is proven to exist,then punishment will follow.

Actually they are still rule breaking, its abuse of the system(kinda like abusing a drop hack to climb) if the duo player, isnt doing it but is still climbing based off the actions of his duo(again proving intent is hard) and knowingly continues to assist his duo in breaking the tos. Then the party should both be punished

Magical PlayerJan 19, 20171 votes

I mean, scripting is bad. Its possible to legit climb in a manner you have suggested. As you get 1 account banned but the other is now diamond with little to no effort.

Often people don't unintentionally duo with scripters....

vampirekid13Jan 19, 20171 votes

should people that duo with rule breakers (specifically scripters) intentionally be punished? absolutely!

is it at all possible to enforce this? absolutely not!

how would you prove intent on something like that? the guy would be like "i didnt know he was scripting"

and thats the end of the investigation, he is innocent.

Magical PlayerJan 19, 20171 votes

Yes if intent is proven, then it is punishable

You are assisting in breaking the rules, riot doesn't need to verbatim state this. Riot is so general as to be over encompassing of issues that could result from such an action

ZaryelleJan 19, 20171 votes

The only way to be certain they know is if they said something in chat in-game or Riot pulled their chat logs between each other, otherwise there's no evidence for punishing them. Unfortunately, most of the more intelligent scripters will just use Skype or something and know to never even allude to scripting in the game, or they just won't tell anyone at all. And those people won't be caught unless Riot can detect the input being nonhuman.

I'm guessing that a majority of scripters would be too embarrassed to tell their friends about it and would rather just pretend they are that good, unless they are both scripters. I can understand the fun of wanting to 'cheat' the system for games, but it's not good in a competitive game like this.