Boards›Player Behavior

Riot-endorsed trolling methods (as learned through discussions with admins)

Mithros13··5 votes·2,582 views

So, I learned several interesting things after needing to deal with admins recently for the first time since I started League about 5 years ago. Through our discussions I was able to get a better picture of how Riot's penalty system operates, and it's basically built to encourage toxic behavior. This would explain the extremely high percentage of negativity LoL is known for, but this might give you a better idea of how that has been subtly shaped by Riot's system.

For starters, apparently there are a number of hidden rules that can result in a penalty (chat restriction/etc). They are not listed on the site guidelines for reportable behavior, but apparently are flags that are used to go after an account. One example? Calling for reports. If someone gets tilted, runs down mid 5x, then ragequits and afks the rest of the game, apparently asking people to help you report them, in order to make sure an admin/the system reviews the case, is cause for YOU to get 6 months of honor reset to zero and a chat restriction. Similarly, if someone is following you around griefing you (stealing as much cs as possible, highlighting your location to the enemy with spells then running away when they rush you, etc), and you get mad at them briefly (but without breaking any specific reportable behavior like cursing, racial slurs, etc), and then mute them, yep, you guessed it, YOU are the one that gets the penalty.

Multiple admins have confirmed that it doesn't matter if they were calling you racial slurs and praising genocide, any response at all on your part other than "Why thank you for your kind words about black people, you are having a wonderful impact on the game!" can result in a penalty against you that will not be reversed. Ironically, I confirmed that the aforementioned racial slurs will NOT always result in a penalty, having had the unfortunate experience of getting matched consecutively with the same person for several games and noticed that zero action had been taken, despite his violations being blatant enough for the system to pick them up automatically even if I hadn't reported them.

So that brings me to the title of the post. As I learned, if you bait someone into saying anything negative by saying or doing something not directly reportable (non-obvious griefing to anyone but the person you're trolling), commenting things like "good job!" whenever they screw up and/or get killed, etc. Once they respond, even if it's just to say they're muting you or asking people to report you for your actions, you can report them, get them penalized with 6+ months of work reset in honor, and get away completely free. Rest assured when they contest the penalty, Riot admins will support your actions, and tell them that the penalty against them is "correctly placed". Your successful trolling will then have the added bonus of Riot's seal of approval, as they tell your victim to try and be more positive in the future, and ask them to reform their ways.

In another twist of irony, Riot's policy on this has successfully "reformed" me from a player that would try to follow the rules and keep myself within reasonable bounds when being frustrated by toxic players, to someone that realizes that such things will get you penalized anyway, and therefore plans on manipulating their rules as they were manipulated against me. As they say, you either quit LoL a reasonable player, or play long enough for Riot to turn you into the villain.

While I don't advocate trolling people that don't deserve it, and certainly don't intend to do so myself, this method of trolling/griefing has been endorsed indirectly by multiple Riot admins based on their responses to my questions. So rather than trying to confront someone about their in-game behavior (like a reasonable person would), simply troll them in this method rather than risk action on your own account. I personally find it an abhorrent policy, but it's Riot's rules, so I guess we have to abide by them.

28 Comments

Chermorg14 votes

For starters, apparently there are a number of hidden rules that can result in a penalty (chat restriction/etc). They are not listed on the site guidelines for reportable behavior, but apparently are flags that are used to go after an account. One example? Calling for reports. If someone gets tilted, runs down mid 5x, then ragequits and afks the rest of the game, apparently asking people to help you report them, in order to make sure an admin/the system reviews the case, is cause for YOU to get 6 months of honor reset to zero and a chat restriction.

No, but if you harass them it is. ONE report triggers a review. More reports do NOTHING. It does not get them "reviewed harder" or result in a more likely punishment if they are reported more. There is simply NO USE for asking for reports, and many times it just amounts to harassment. Harassment is not okay regardless of if you think "they deserve it".

Further, I think the Summoner's Code and Terms of Use make very clear harassment and verbal abuse of any kind, towards anyone is punishable. It does not matter "they started it" or "they deserved it".

despite his violations being blatant enough for the system to pick them up automatically even if I hadn't reported them.

The system does not look at things that are not reported. Period.

As I learned, if you bait someone into saying anything negative by saying or doing something not directly reportable (non-obvious griefing to anyone but the person you're trolling)

Riot wasn't born yesterday. If you're trolling others to attempt to bait them into bans, you will be suspended. Likely permanently on your first case of this happening.

If you really think Riot hasn't thought of these things, that's insane.

You're someone mad about getting punished. I get it. You refused to control yourself, thought harassment was okay because "they started it", and then got punished. You think that's wrong.

Think of everyone's game you made worse because, not only did they have to deal with losing the game, they had to now deal with you being a jerk to a teammate. Nobody wants to see that. Most players can handle losing a game. Most players can handle having someone playing like shit. Most players can even handle someone who looks like they may be intentionally losing/trolling. But when you start intentionally and knowingly being a jerk in chat, that honestly can ruin a game more than just a loss can.

A loss can ruin a game. Virtually 100% of players play another one after a loss. Even if that loss was due to someone running it down mid - most players understand "shit happens". But if someone's just creating an obscenely negative environment in chat, hurling insults, harassing others, abusing them, threatening them, that's where the game goes to shit and has the potential to not only ruin the game but ruin a person's whole night.

Nobody wants to see you be a jerk to others - that's why you were punished. Whether you were "triggered" or "baited" is your own fault - you should have the self control to not blame others for your own actions.

mlm olo mlm3 votes

ONE report triggers a review. More reports do NOTHING.

Then the IFS learning algorithm is not being fed appropriate data. I'd wager IFS is no longer learning and is currently a glorified chat filter.

zPOOPz5 votes

how is the IFS not being fed appropriate data? The "data" in question is the reported chat log. If the individual chat log is being reported at least ONE time, it get fed to the IFS. How does multiple reports on top of that first one help or not help the IFS learn??? The report(s) is NOT the "data" the IFS is learning from. The chatlog is. One or nine reports is meaningless as far as the IFS is concern.

TrulyBland1 votes

To learn you need more than just the data that it is supposed to categorize, though. You also need a "reward", either given manually via the "correct" response determined by a manual review or via an estimate.

Such an estimate would plausibly come from the number of reports. That said, this is nothing that is really relevant to the player. Trying to interfere on this level of the learning process is actually more likely to create weird biases than help. Case in point: If people forget to report a certain behaviour that implies the behaviour had a lower impact on them. If somebody reminds others of negative behaviour so they report it, they skew the results to look more like everybody was affected as much as they were, since the system cannot differentiate between which report came from somebody who had to be reminded and who remembered it on their own.

tl;dr: Number of reports is likely considered by the learning algorithm... but on a level where soliciting for reports is an even worse idea.

And disregarding all of that, the simple truth is that most of the time asking for reports is a form of passive aggression. Hence why it's considered negative/toxic behaviour regardless of the effect it may or may not have on the system.

Modi2 votes

To learn you need more than just the data that it is supposed to categorize, though. You also need a "reward", either given manually via the "correct" response determined by a manual review or via an estimate.

Such an estimate would plausibly come from the number of reports. That said, this is nothing that is really relevant to the player. Trying to interfere on this level of the learning process is actually more likely to create weird biases than help.

Not necessarily a bias, but it would definitely open the system up to exploitation.

mlm olo mlm2 votes

how is the IFS not being fed appropriate data?

IFS is supposed to be learning from all of us, not whichever individual hit the report button first. When I say "all of us" that includes the "non reports". Everyone should get a vote.

How does multiple reports on top of that first one help or not help the IFS learn???

It increases accuracy by considering more votes. It also learns new words faster by considering more data.

However, if you aren't interested in cultural accuracy and adaptability and want to just enforce a hand made chat filter, then counting only one report is pretty efficient. You don't even need to count the non reports anymore. So you go from 10 votes to 1 vote. Incredible gains in efficiency, Kind of like the honor system.

Mithros131 votes

{quoted}

No, but if you harass them it is. ONE report triggers a review. More reports do NOTHING. It does not get them "reviewed harder" or result in a more likely punishment if they are reported more. There is simply NO USE for asking for reports, and many times it just amounts to harassment. Harassment is not okay regardless of if you think "they deserve it".

There is no indication of that based on any posted guidelines, they simply tell you when to report, not that more reports won't result in a higher priority being placed. From a programming standpoint it would make sense to do so. Additionally, in the game I'm referring to, I wasn't the one spamming calls for reports, that would be the trolls I was talking about. I asked literally once for each of them in response to them literally spamming it in all chat all game. Yet I'm the one that got penalized.

Riot wasn't born yesterday. If you're trolling others to attempt to bait them into bans, you will be suspended. Likely permanently on your first case of this happening.

Based on recent experience, I'm wondering if Riot was born yesterday, since this current policy literally encourages toxic behavior. I have very little confidence that the people that did this to me were suspended, permanently or otherwise.

If you really think Riot hasn't thought of these things, that's insane.

Oh I certainly think they've thought of them. I just have no evidence that they care.

You're someone mad about getting punished. I get it. You refused to control yourself, thought harassment was okay because "they started it", and then got punished. You think that's wrong.

Actually it's quite the opposite. I made a point of controlling myself and not going off the rails or breaking any posted rules (no cursing, no racial slurs, no afking or inting, etc). I first tried to get them to do something useful, then muted the first troll after he started drawing me in, the same with the second. After muting them they started griefing me in-game, and even went so far as to grief other players because I was trying to help them.

Think of everyone's game you made worse because, not only did they have to deal with losing the game, they had to now deal with you being a jerk to a teammate. Nobody wants to see that. Most players can handle losing a game. Most players can handle having someone playing like shit. Most players can even handle someone who looks like they may be intentionally losing/trolling. But when you start intentionally and knowingly being a jerk in chat, that honestly can ruin a game more than just a loss can.

Yeah I think you're under the mistaken impression that I was the one doing these things. I learned about this method because it was done to me, not because I was the one doing it. As I mentioned, after being muted, these people were still spamming all chat and taking any opportunity they could to make sure I (or anyone I tried to help) stayed behind.

Nobody wants to see you be a jerk to others - that's why you were punished. Whether you were "triggered" or "baited" is your own fault - you should have the self control to not blame others for your own actions.

Once again, I'm not the one that was being a jerk to others. Me responding a couple of times (before muting them) to people actively and intentionally being a jerk to me both in-game and in-chat is what got me penalized. The fact that I exercised the self control you're talking about and still got 6 months of work removed is what's ridiculous about Riot's current system. So if the response is the same whether you control your actions, or whether you actively troll others, I care less now about controlling my actions in the future.

Chermorg2 votes

{quoted}

There is no indication of that based on any posted guidelines, they simply tell you when to report, not that more reports won't result in a higher priority being placed. From a programming standpoint it would make sense to do so. Additionally, in the game I'm referring to, I wasn't the one spamming calls for reports, that would be the trolls I was talking about. I asked literally once for each of them in response to them literally spamming it in all chat all game. Yet I'm the one that got penalized.

There is no logical way any punishment system would work that way. Think of it - if you call the cops, they come and investigate. If 4 people call the cops, does it make it any more likely the innocent person across the street gets arrested? Or does it make it any more likely the actual criminal gets arrested?

Based on recent experience, I'm wondering if Riot was born yesterday, since this current policy literally encourages toxic behavior. I have very little confidence that the people that did this to me were suspended, permanently or otherwise.

Well, based on your account, you were "triggered" by them doing things that weren't against the rules, so yes, I doubt they got punished for your misbehavior.

Actually it's quite the opposite. I made a point of controlling myself and not going off the rails or breaking any posted rules (no cursing, no racial slurs, no afking or inting, etc). I first tried to get them to do something useful, then muted the first troll after he started drawing me in, the same with the second. After muting them they started griefing me in-game, and even went so far as to grief other players because I was trying to help them.

You harassed someone. I suggest you go read the Summoner's Code - which very clearly prohibits harassment and verbal abuse of other players. Cursing and slurs are not the only prohibited things - and in fact cursing is 100% okay if you're not cursing to harass others.

Yeah I think you're under the mistaken impression that I was the one doing these things. I learned about this method because it was done to me, not because I was the one doing it. As I mentioned, after being muted, these people were still spamming all chat and taking any opportunity they could to make sure I (or anyone I tried to help) stayed behind.

Well, to be quite honest, they may very well have started doing it because you were flaming them. I'm not saying that makes their actions okay, but if you're blaming your reaction on them, why can't they blame their reaction on you? It's only logical.

Now maybe you see how illogical it is? You're responsible for your actions, and they're responsible for theirs. You don't get to use the "but they started it" excuse to justify your actions

Once again, I'm not the one that was being a jerk to others. Me responding a couple of times (before muting them) to people actively and intentionally being a jerk to me both in-game and in-chat is what got me penalized. The fact that I exercised the self control you're talking about and still got 6 months of work removed is what's ridiculous about Riot's current system. So if the response is the same whether you control your actions, or whether you actively troll others, I care less now about controlling my actions in the future.

I strongly suspect the reason you haven't posted your chat logs is because you know you were in the wrong and that it was more than a "couple of times". But maybe you'll post your logs and I'll be surprised.

Mithros131 votes

{quoted}

There is no logical way any punishment system would work that way. Think of it - if you call the cops, they come and investigate. If 4 people call the cops, does it make it any more likely the innocent person across the street gets arrested? Or does it make it any more likely the actual criminal gets arrested?

... is this a serious question? It's hard to tell in text. It makes it much more likely that the criminal gets arrested if 4 witnesses corroborate the same story and report him to the police. Similarly, if the police lines are getting inundated with calls about a particular criminal, they certainly place a higher priority on it.

Well, based on your account, you were "triggered" by them doing things that weren't against the rules, so yes, I doubt they got punished for your misbehavior.

Oh they were certainly against the rules that's what's the frustrating part. My responses were not against the rules, theirs were. My account simply indicates what can be done based on what the admins are saying to troll someone without getting penalized for it. The game where I got penalized theoretically could get banned for what they did, but I doubt riot did anything about it.

You harassed someone. I suggest you go read the Summoner's Code - which very clearly prohibits harassment and verbal abuse of other players. Cursing and slurs are not the only prohibited things - and in fact cursing is 100% okay if you're not cursing to harass others.

... I think you have a mistaken idea of what "harassment" means? If a stalker follows you around taking pictures of you and catcalling you all day and you tell them to get lost, you are not "harassing" them.

Well, to be quite honest, they may very well have started doing it because you were flaming them. I'm not saying that makes their actions okay, but if you're blaming your reaction on them, why can't they blame their reaction on you? It's only logical.

Now maybe you see how illogical it is? You're responsible for your actions, and they're responsible for theirs. You don't get to use the "but they started it" excuse to justify your actions

... I don't think you're really thinking that through? Pretending that actions are the same, and right or wrong, completely independent of context is just silly. If you punch someone in the face that was trying to murder you, you don't get arrested by the police and charged with assault because "you are responsible for your own actions, and the attempted murderer is responsible for theirs"

I strongly suspect the reason you haven't posted your chat logs is because you know you were in the wrong and that it was more than a "couple of times". But maybe you'll post your logs and I'll be surprised.

I'm not against it, but I don't even have the chat log anymore. It was on some card that disappeared after I played a few games.

Chermorg1 votes

{quoted}

... is this a serious question? It's hard to tell in text. It makes it much more likely that the criminal gets arrested if 4 witnesses corroborate the same story and report him to the police. Similarly, if the police lines are getting inundated with calls about a particular criminal, they certainly place a higher priority on it.

But if all 4 witnesses are lying, then that will come out in the investigation. The investigation is not influenced by how many people call the police.

Oh they were certainly against the rules that's what's the frustrating part. My responses were not against the rules, theirs were. My account simply indicates what can be done based on what the admins are saying to troll someone without getting penalized for it. The game where I got penalized theoretically could get banned for what they did, but I doubt riot did anything about it.

Your responses were against the rules. You have been told this multiple times. You cannot troll without getting penalized. Put quite simply, what you are calling trolling is not trolling. It's you getting frustrated over something that isn't actually malicious in any way. You got mad over something other players were doing - playing bad, not listening to you, whatever - and thought "well I'm the most important one here, they have to listen to me and play at a challenger level" and you flamed them for it.

... I think you have a mistaken idea of what "harassment" means? If a stalker follows you around taking pictures of you and catcalling you all day and you tell them to get lost, you are not "harassing" them.

It is still harassment. The definition of a word does not change based on who the action is performed towards. You may think it's "justified" harassment, but it is still harassment nonetheless. Furthermore, in League, there is no chance of harm or damage coming to you from anyone else - it's a videogame. Thus there is no justification for harassment.

... I don't think you're really thinking that through? Pretending that actions are the same, and right or wrong, completely independent of context is just silly. If you punch someone in the face that was trying to murder you, you don't get arrested by the police and charged with assault because "you are responsible for your own actions, and the attempted murderer is responsible for theirs"

That is self defense. You are at risk of bodily harm or death. Last I checked, there's no harm or damage coming to you from your choice to play a video game. You have no right to "defend" yourself in League because there is no damage coming to you. You're free to mute them and report them if you choose - you are not free to retaliate.

I'm not against it, but I don't even have the chat log anymore. It was on some card that disappeared after I played a few games.

You can contact Support and have them send you the logs from your most recent punishment if you want - otherwise why are you complaining about it now after the punishment is over, without providing any proof of your supposed innocence?

Mithros131 votes

{quoted}

But if all 4 witnesses are lying, then that will come out in the investigation. The investigation is not influenced by how many people call the police. If there is only 1 witness, a case may or may not be strong enough to convict. They might not even press charges if it's a "he said she said" situation. 4 witnesses on the other hand is a much stronger case, and while they might be lying, it's certainly given much more weight than a random single person saying something.

Your responses were against the rules. You have been told this multiple times. You cannot troll without getting penalized. Put quite simply, what you are calling trolling is not trolling. It's you getting frustrated over something that isn't actually malicious in any way. You got mad over something other players were doing - playing bad, not listening to you, whatever - and thought "well I'm the most important one here, they have to listen to me and play at a challenger level" and you flamed them for it.

Incorrect. I got frustrated with the jg because he intentionally avoided coming top under any circumstances. That in and of itself is not trolling, just poor playing. The "flaming" you're referring to was simply informing them that after 3 kills the lane is lost and there's not much I can do about it. At which point he continues to ignore me until I (for some reason unexpectedly on his part) am unable to win the lane. After that he and his duo partner start spamming all chat to report me for not winning my lane, and follow me around griefing me when possible. At one point he even steals blue from our mid laner simply because I was leashing it for her (she used much more colorful language than I did to respond to that).

It is still harassment. The definition of a word does not change based on who the action is performed towards. You may think it's "justified" harassment, but it is still harassment nonetheless. Furthermore, in League, there is no chance of harm or damage coming to you from anyone else - it's a videogame. Thus there is no justification for harassment.

Someone spamming nonsense about you all game and griefing you is harassment. Asking others to join in your report at the end of the game in response is not harassment, by any reasonable definition of the term.

That is self defense. You are at risk of bodily harm or death. Last I checked, there's no harm or damage coming to you from your choice to play a video game. You have no right to "defend" yourself in League because there is no damage coming to you. You're free to mute them and report them if you choose - you are not free to retaliate.

If I'm free to mute them, then they are free to mute me, and there is no reason to claim outside interference would be helpful in either direction. You're hamstringing your own argument here. However muting them doesn't stop them from in-game griefing.

You can contact Support and have them send you the logs from your most recent punishment if you want - otherwise why are you complaining about it now after the punishment is over, without providing any proof of your supposed innocence?

The punishment is season long. Reset honor takes literally months to restore, and that's if you play more than a healthy person should. As I said, I don't mind the logs being public, but I don't see the point of going out of my way just to prove I'm telling the truth to people that don't care if I am or am not saying something that's real anyway.

Chermorg2 votes

{quoted}

If there is only 1 witness, a case may or may not be strong enough to convict. They might not even press charges if it's a "he said she said" situation. 4 witnesses on the other hand is a much stronger case, and while they might be lying, it's certainly given much more weight than a random single person saying something.

No no, these aren't witnesses, they're simply people calling the police. They didn't see any crime happen or the perpetrator. They only are calling the police to investigate. Riot doesn't need witnesses - they have literally all the evidence that there ever could be stored on their servers already.

Does more people calling the police - not being witnesses, but just calling the police - make a stronger case? No. It doesn't matter if someone hears a gunshot outside an apartment complex with 300 people who all call 911 or if someone hears it outside a gas station with only the one worker inside who calls 911 - they will both be investigated.

Incorrect. I got frustrated with the jg because he intentionally avoided coming top under any circumstances. That in and of itself is not trolling, just poor playing. The "flaming" you're referring to was simply informing them that after 3 kills the lane is lost and there's not much I can do about it. At which point he continues to ignore me until I (for some reason unexpectedly on his part) am unable to win the lane. After that he and his duo partner start spamming all chat to report me for not winning my lane, and follow me around griefing me when possible. At one point he even steals blue from our mid laner simply because I was leashing it for her (she used much more colorful language than I did to respond to that).

Your jungler is not required to come top, and it's not even poor play for them to not come top. I can all but guarantee you you didn't just say "I lost lane". You were flaming/berating them for losing your lane for them.

Someone spamming nonsense about you all game and griefing you is harassment. Asking others to join in your report at the end of the game in response is not harassment, by any reasonable definition of the term.

Yes, that is harassment still. The "truth" of the claims does not make them not harassment. You did the exact same thing they did to you - except you believe somehow it's okay when you do it.

If I'm free to mute them, then they are free to mute me, and there is no reason to claim outside interference would be helpful in either direction. You're hamstringing your own argument here. However muting them doesn't stop them from in-game griefing.

Muting prevents one game from being ruined, reporting and punishing hopefully prevents more games from being ruined in the future. I suspect you still haven't gotten the message your behavior is not appropriate yet.

The punishment is season long. Reset honor takes literally months to restore, and that's if you play more than a healthy person should. As I said, I don't mind the logs being public, but I don't see the point of going out of my way just to prove I'm telling the truth to people that don't care if I am or am not saying something that's real anyway.

Reset honor takes less than a month to restore, playing barely average amounts of games. I know, as I've had multiple friends do that as well as seen multiple independent players post on the boards about it. The only way it takes longer is if you are still being validly reported in games by people.

You say people don't care, yet you've had multiple people here try to help you understand why you're wrong to avoid future punishments. If that's not caring about you, I'm not sure what is.

Mithros131 votes

{quoted}

No no, these aren't witnesses, they're simply people calling the police. They didn't see any crime happen or the perpetrator. They only are calling the police to investigate. Riot doesn't need witnesses - they have literally all the evidence that there ever could be stored on their servers already.

Does more people calling the police - not being witnesses, but just calling the police - make a stronger case? No. It doesn't matter if someone hears a gunshot outside an apartment complex with 300 people who all call 911 or if someone hears it outside a gas station with only the one worker inside who calls 911 - they will both be investigated.

People do not call the police over crimes they did not witness (or did not witness the results). People that heard the shots are witnesses and yes, police would investigate regardless, however they would want to talk to each of them to find out as much info as possible. Similarly, 300 people calling to report shots fired are going to get more priority than one guy calling saying he heard a loud bang somewhere. One person might have just heard a car backfiring. 300 people reporting it and it was probably a big deal.

Your jungler is not required to come top, and it's not even poor play for them to not come top. I can all but guarantee you you didn't just say "I lost lane". You were flaming/berating them for losing your lane for them.

Repeating what I said about jungle not coming top doesn't somehow make it correct when you say it and incorrect when I say it. I already indicated that in and of itself that is not trolling. Poor strategy yes, given he wasn't doing anything useful with the time, but not something reportable. And I didn't flame/berate them in the way you're implying. I first said I was going to need some help because their jungler was getting their lane ahead and I needed to catch up.

After a while I pointed out that it was going to be too late if he didn't help soon (because it was), and he started flaming me. I pointed out that it's not as if he was getting the other lanes ahead. He starts namecalling, I briefly tell him he's being an idiot (not in those exact words, but not in any language stronger than that) and then ignore him and get back to the game. I end up losing lane (obviously), he starts spamming to report me in all chat. I mute him. Later his duo partner starts the same nonsense. The rest is as I said.

Yes, that is harassment still. The "truth" of the claims does not make them not harassment. You did the exact same thing they did to you - except you believe somehow it's okay when you do it. I suppose we simply disagree on that. In the real world if someone followed you around and harassed you there are eventually legal consequences (ie. stalking laws). If you tell them to knock it off and that they're being creepy they do not get to claim that you are harassing them. That's just basic common sense.

Muting prevents one game from being ruined, reporting and punishing hopefully prevents more games from being ruined in the future. I suspect you still haven't gotten the message your behavior is not appropriate yet.

My point exactly, it sends the opposite message to people like me, since it draws no distinction between people who keep themselves in check, and people who actively troll others. When the penalties are a wasted 6 months of work, that makes one give up on the community aspect of league in general, meaning the only people left are either toxic, or do not say anything at all. This current system results in an active increase in negative behavior, and an active decrease in positive behavior which is the whole point of this post. I'm glad you agree.

Reset honor takes less than a month to restore, playing barely average amounts of games. I know, as I've had multiple friends do that as well as seen multiple independent players post on the boards about it. The only way it takes longer is if you are still being validly reported in games by people.

Not true. I regularly get an average of one or two honors or so in games (usually I play solo). It's been several weeks, and I only just passed the first checkpoint towards honor 2. By your estimation if honor went up that quickly I would be near the second checkpoint for honor 3. Perhaps people that play with groups of friends and can get many multiple honors per game might have a faster time of it, but that's not how I play.

You say people don't care, yet you've had multiple people here try to help you understand why you're wrong to avoid future punishments. If that's not caring about you, I'm not sure what is.

Player comments mostly tend to be about making themselves feel better, not about helping correct the issue. That aside I'm not going to overly speculate on their motives because that's not who I was talking about. What I said was that Riot doesn't care, as they could end this easily by uniformly enforcing the rules on every game, regardless of reports.

In general reports that result in a chat restriction are automated, meaning the system doesn't actually need to wait for a report to detect toxic behavior, and automated analysis of a chat log in the way they do it takes very, VERY little computing power. By the end of a week everyone in league would either be chat restricted, banned, not use the chat option at all, or "positive". The fact that toxic people are only getting more common shows that they are avoiding this option. My guess would be for the simple reason that it would cost them money in lost player revenue.

So since they refuse to enforce them uniformly, in order to prevent cases like this, they should not enforce them at all except for extreme measures. IE, telling people to kill themselves, racial slurs, actual threats, etc. This "negativity" nonsense is a ridiculous measure by which to penalize people when there is both a chat filter and a mute button readily available to literally every player.

AeroWaffle9 votes

One example? Calling for reports.

Why is it so surprising that asking people to report is considered poor behavior? It's hearsay if you ask the enemy team to report for something they might not have seen and at all times it's just attempting to alienate someone.

Just. Report. Them.

There's no reason to be bringing it to chat.

despite his violations being blatant enough for the system to pick them up automatically even if I hadn't reported them.

The system doesn't bother looking at someone's behavior if no one reports them, as it is assumed that no one had a problem with their behavior.

Mithros131 votes

Why is it so surprising that asking people to report is considered poor behavior? It's hearsay if you ask the enemy team to report for something they might not have seen and at all times it's just attempting to alienate someone.

Just. Report. Them.

There's no reason to be bringing it to chat.

It wasn't heresay. In this particular game, I asked once in all chat (in response to them spamming all chat all game while being toxic to me) for people to report them because they saw exactly what I was talking about. Despite what some are saying here, over the years it seems much more plausible that multiple reports get a higher priority in the system. Maybe they've changed it since then, but that's been my understanding.

The system doesn't bother looking at someone's behavior if no one reports them, as it is assumed that no one had a problem with their behavior.

This actually encourages trolls. Think about it. If they frustrate someone enough to basically just want to be done with the game and leave as soon as possible, they might forget to report before they leave, and then it's too late. However trolls, by their nature, would make sure to report them after a game for any response to their griefing. That means that when you aggregate all games together you'll have actual toxic players getting away with it more often than the people they harass.

AeroWaffle1 votes

It wasn't heresay. In this particular game, I asked once in all chat (in response to them spamming all chat all game while being toxic to me) for people to report them because they saw exactly what I was talking about. Despite what some are saying here, over the years it seems much more plausible that multiple reports get a higher priority in the system. Maybe they've changed it since then, but that's been my understanding.

So the second one then, you were just using it to alienate someone.

This actually encourages trolls. Think about it. If they frustrate someone enough to basically just want to be done with the game and leave as soon as possible, they might forget to report before they leave, and then it's too late. However trolls, by their nature, would make sure to report them after a game for any response to their griefing. That means that when you aggregate all games together you'll have actual toxic players getting away with it more often than the people they harass.

The alternative is unacceptable. People getting banned when no one felt like anyone was out of line. So you're left with the option where players are in charge of reporting.

Mithros131 votes

So the second one then, you were just using it to alienate someone.

Nope. As I said I wanted the system to actually flag it instead of ignoring reports as it so often does.

The alternative is unacceptable. People getting banned when no one felt like anyone was out of line. So you're left with the option where players are in charge of reporting.

I'm not sure how that's an "alternative"? People are still getting banned when no one feels like anyone was out of line, and not banned when they feel that they are.

AeroWaffle1 votes

Nope. As I said I wanted the system to actually flag it instead of ignoring reports as it so often does.

Based on what evidence? I prefer to trust the word of one of the people in charge of the system (Tantram) over yours. They have first-hand knowledge of how the system functions. They see the algorithm, you only see some of the results and only from your perspective.

I'm not sure how that's an "alternative"? People are still getting banned when no one feels like anyone was out of line, and not banned when they feel that they are.

You suggest that banning based on people reporting is somehow appealing to the trolls because sometimes people forget to report. But the alternative, checking the behavior regardless if someone reported or not, is an even worse situation.

Riot needs to make sure that false positives are kept to a minimum as a false positive (someone falsely banned) is far worse than a false negative (someone falsely cleared). I believe that someone who behaves poorly but isn't punished because every single person forgot to report is both uncommon, but only applies to that one game. They place themselves back in the firing line the next time they misbehave.

Mithros131 votes

{quoted}

Based on what evidence? I prefer to trust the word of one of the people in charge of the system (Tantram) over yours. They have first-hand knowledge of how the system functions. They see the algorithm, you only see some of the results and only from your perspective.

Based on the multiple times I've reported people who are spamming racial slurs in game and being super toxic, only to have the unfortunate luck of getting matched with them in subsequent games where they're doing the same thing. Riot has more knowledge about how the system works, but it doesn't mean they're more honest about it. Additionally, the admins that respond to your claims are very likely not the programmers that actually set up the system. They are customer service representatives, which generally have very little knowledge of how the system is physically put together.

You suggest that banning based on people reporting is somehow appealing to the trolls because sometimes people forget to report. But the alternative, checking the behavior regardless if someone reported or not, is an even worse situation.

Riot needs to make sure that false positives are kept to a minimum as a false positive (someone falsely banned) is far worse than a false negative (someone falsely cleared). I believe that someone who behaves poorly but isn't punished because every single person forgot to report is both uncommon, but only applies to that one game. They place themselves back in the firing line the next time they misbehave.

And yet here I am, a false positive over something even the admin I spoke to admitted was minor. Resetting 6 months of work is hardly appropriate for something even the admin reviewing your case admits wasn't a very big deal. So now we have false positives in addition to more false negatives. That's not an improvement, since it also means there are more negative people out there, which results in a snowball effect. I almost wouldn't care about the penalty if I didn't have to deal with toxic people in literally over 80% of my losses.

AeroWaffle1 votes

Based on the multiple times I've reported people who are spamming racial slurs in game and being super toxic, only to have the unfortunate luck of getting matched with them in subsequent games where they're doing the same thing. Riot has more knowledge about how the system works, but it doesn't mean they're more honest about it. Additionally, the admins that respond to your claims are very likely not the programmers that actually set up the system. They are customer service representatives, which generally have very little knowledge of how the system is physically put together.

I can make the same assumptions about your own claims. That you're being dishonest.

And yet here I am, a false positive over something even the admin I spoke to admitted was minor. Resetting 6 months of work is hardly appropriate for something even the admin reviewing your case admits wasn't a very big deal. So now we have false positives in addition to more false negatives. That's not an improvement, since it also means there are more negative people out there, which results in a snowball effect. I almost wouldn't care about the penalty if I didn't have to deal with toxic people in literally over 80% of my losses.

This goes back to the honesty bit. I don't believe you're being entirely honest about your situation because you have reason to lie. You don't like the system and you have a vendetta with Riot. So much so that you're willing to claim that Riot is intentionally advocating trolling with their system.

Mithros131 votes

I can make the same assumptions about your own claims. That you're being dishonest.

You could make those assumptions. You don't know me. I on the other hand have the benefit of knowing that I'm not being dishonest. So you have on the one hand Riot, who has a track record of denying things like this despite massive aggregate evidence from players to the contrary, and you have me. One you know lies regularly, the other you don't know if they lie or not. I'm not telling you which way to go, but that's your decision.

This goes back to the honesty bit. I don't believe you're being entirely honest about your situation because you have reason to lie. You don't like the system and you have a vendetta with Riot. So much so that you're willing to claim that Riot is intentionally advocating trolling with their system.

And what would I have to gain from it? Riot's not going to change anything in my case based on a forum post. And I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm going to affect the bottom line of a company based on being extremely dissatisfied with the way they handle things like this. So I'm simply disseminating information.

Riot on the other hand, has plenty to gain from hiding how their system actually works and allowing trolls to run rampant. Trolls spend money too, so by keeping them in the game, as long as it doesn't hit the breaking point where massive numbers of people quit, Riot actually profits. Since it's a business first, it makes logical sense that they would set up a system that errs on the side of making more money as opposed to having a better community. It also makes sense that they would lie about it publicly to prevent non-trolls from leaving in frustration (and thus losing their revenue).

Silent Gravity8 votes

{quoted}

So rather than trying to confront someone about their in-game behavior (like a reasonable person would)

Why would a reasonable person feed the trolls?

Don't feed the trolls.

Hayes2 votes

so defending yourself isn't a viable defense...ok, glad to know that, be sure to tell that to the police or judges when you get assaulted.

Aneirin1 votes

Maybe try using a good analogy next time. Is there a handy button you can push in one second in real life that will stop an assault?

LetYourSleepWane1 votes

Need I say more?

Mordius1 votes

Toxicity doesn't exist in league. Only 0.006% of players get permabanned due to toxicity. Basically no one.

Sorry fam, but you're imagining things.

Hayes1 votes

[deleted]

Mordius1 votes

{quoted}

sorry fam, your quoting Riot who WANTS you to think this. There are at least 100 post on here TODAY about being banned. SO .000006 % is BULLSHIT , Propaganda . I bet you also believe that Trump is Yuge and his tax code helped poor and middle class families.

I was being sarcastic.
And what does Trump have to do with anything in this thread?

More from Player Behavior

The indefinite banning of Tyler1
Player Behavior4,799 comments
2,942
votes
14 day ban because playing Nunu Support with Smite is "stealing other people's roles"...?
Player Behavior1,525 comments
1,086
votes
Riot should add monthly status cards
Player Behavior241 comments
843
votes
Reminder that we haven't gotten our Summoner report cards yet :/
Player Behavior145 comments
619
votes
I'm not "triggered" by you throwing insults.
Player Behavior361 comments
548
votes
Black Alistar, King Rammus!!!!
Player Behavior462 comments
503
votes

More by Mithros13

Wow a new low for players
Player Behavior11 comments
1
votes
Reports for dodged games due to trolling?
Player Behavior3 comments
1
votes