Boards›Player Behavior

The Concept Behind IFS

The Strapon··3 votes·1,286 views

EDIT: I’m not here to argue a suspension but the system. If you would like to argue over the suspension then I will not respond any further.

After a long discussion with Skeletor last night about the system, I have decided to post on the community thread because this really bugs me - especially since I work in health care and public policy. The instant feedback system is flawed and does not take into account cultural means or aspects. Now I am on the fairly older side of the age group that still plays league of legends and believe it or not the first time I heard of the zero-tolerance policy and IFS was literally 2 days ago. Having played since season 1 on and off, I can't really blame them as I don't update my client and bother to read ToS with my schedule.

This brings us to the issue of a holistic review when coming to banning individuals. Now in my scenario, the use of the term "kys" warrants an automatic suspension of 15 days. What I do support is the idea behind helping individuals avoid bullying. However, this also does not take into the account of different cultural and societal implications of different meanings. Believe it or not, I had a whole entirely different meaning for kys because I had no clue and asked a friend what it meant. Three years later here I am - dumbfounded. The lack of approach to actually understanding the perspective and use of someones intentions are proper here. Can someone even say that to their friend - get reported later on and banned without having it intended for another individual? Yes. The game cannot account for in game behavior and external circumstances such as voice chat.

Don't get me wrong, I could hardly care less if I get suspended as I have alternate accounts I can play on if I have the time. It would however, be nice for a re-evaluation of scenarios like this.

I would love to see a better approach to this. If words warrant a ban - then they should all be filtered. To my knowledge KYS was not a filtered word and it is fairly difficult to judge what would be appropriate from Riot's standpoint as everyone has a very different culture. Upon further analysis and questioning of my peers who also play league have stated they use this to tell friends to shut up. Failure to observe someone else's culture is fairly inappropriate. For example, where I grew up the word bet means "Bet you won't do it" or "Bet I won't do it" as opposed to the concept of gambling.

To all of you the system may seem fair, but I would hate to see a kid or someone be a victim of the system. Especially when common terms for them are used to speak to their friends and are misinterpreted by the system. Looking at chat logs help, but also timing and responses from the whole chat log can play a big role. Also did the player intentionally make his/her team lose the game? These are all things to consider in scenarios such as these. I know for a fact that League of Legends is a huge portion of someone's life and by having a simple misunderstanding can lead to fatal consequences that were originally planned to avoid.

Anyways, food for thought. Before I do let the down votes pursue, I am on the older side of the age group and work heavily in mental health. I don't have time to keep up with the changing acronyms and am a heavy advocate of suicide prevention. My life is dedicated to helping depression and suicide. Kudos to Riot for taking a step, however it would be nice to at least have KYS a filtered word and a more holistic approach to banning people instead of relying on an automated system.

P.S. Thanks for the conversation Skeletor yesterday. You made me want to post this during my break.

31 Comments

Anastaecia2 votes

Once you can figure out a non-automated system to handle millions of reports each day, I'm sure Riot would like to hear your ideas. Until then, they are doing the best they can. Keep in mind, THERE IS A TOS and The SUmmoner's Code, which by the way are VERY similar to any other ToS out there...

Be nice to your fellow players.

Pretty simple. If you can't be nice, you get punished.....you know, just like the rest of civilization.

The Strapon1 votes

Well like I said, it’s not about the punishment, but the system. Behavior is easy to read especially if it is consistent over the past 20 games. Making a quick assumption off of one game is what I think is flawed and if that is the case then it should warrant a real set of eyes.

Anastaecia2 votes

It's not a quick assumption. Most people have numerous reports against them that build up to a suspension. There are certain words/phrases that can escalate that. Just like any punishment system. Some "crimes" are more severe so they get more severely punished. I don't understand why this basic concept is so confusing to people.

Doesn't matter if you were joking around with friends or any other of the same 2-3 excuses I see. You can yell "Fire" in an enclosed place jokingly with friends...the rest of the people don't find it funny.

The Strapon1 votes

It’s not confusing. I would just like to draw attention to the system. And as a matter of fact it was one game in my case, but that’s beside the point.

And I would also like to make the acronym “kys” filtered. It develops more clarity.

Don’t get me wrong I support your idea, but life is about development and growth which is why I would like to generate attention and ideas in regards to this.

ModPeriscope2 votes

However, this also does not take into the account of different cultural and societal implications of different meanings.

It does. For instance, "yo momma" jokes get a 2-week suspension on certain servers.

As for the different meanings to kys? I don't buy it. Especially if you've played this for as long as you state you have.

The Strapon1 votes

You are entitled to your own view. If you had made an attempt to read the whole thing through, you’d understand the lack of effort I have put into trying to understand all the new acronyms. Like I said I don’t care about the suspensions just the system.

Please try to understand before you jump to conclusions.

ModPeriscope2 votes

If you had made an attempt to read the whole thing through...... Please try to understand before you jump to conclusions.

I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I'm not buying that you typed in "kys" as a different acronym, as it's not even used in every day language.

The Strapon1 votes

Yes which is why I see your point of view and not stating it is wrong. I have no problem with the suspension. It’s not an acronym you see people say everyday. Especially if you work with depression and suicide.

But as I stated it’s not about my suspension but the system which I would like to devlelop more consideration and draw attention to.

The Strapon2 votes

Ah my message didn’t send it off entirely. But as I mentioned since it isn’t something you see everyday, a simple misguided gesture can lead it to development. I don’t dedicate my life to internet trolling and memes, hence I’m fairly uneducated in that sense.

Kei1432 votes

The system is a learning machine, it will take in account from the reports that the community doesn't take kys lightly and it understands that the majority of players don't think of its as "shut up".

I have seen youngsters use kys as "shut up" but I think that is far from the norm or majority.

The Strapon3 votes

That is what I would like to draw attention to. We don't use machines to determine if someone is guilty or not in society. It's a holistic approach. Given that the riot staff does not consist of judges of law associates, it would be nice to have a game be looked at by a real pair of eyes as opposed to a machine given the behavior was limited.

Don't get me wrong it could lead to dangerous repercussions if not kept in check; however, not everything is black and white. Otherwise we wouldn't have progressed beyond racial boundaries over the past 60 years.

My issue is: One game should not be enough jurisdiction to warrant a suspension.

The whole idea of grouping the minority with the majority is what has caused so much hate towards law enforcement. I have been on this end many times and do not appreciate it.

Magical Player1 votes

Yep never in the history of society have we used machines to determine punishments https://epic.org/algorithmic-transparency/crim-justice/

Riot is the judge and jury, this is their game. They had the tribunal where people would help judge people it was slow and it payed(in ip) players to vote as quickly as possible and once they removed the ip reward, the system slowed down to almost nothing

So if people aren't willing to manage their community and riot cant afford to hire 1000's of staff to handle tickets whats next? A system that handles obvious issues in player behavior IFS

To keep it simple should someone using slurs be allowed to run amok inside the game for the 6+ months to have a human process a ticket?

IN the old tirbunal players could rack up hundreds of games of chat restrictions because the tribunal was so slow that before you were off one another one would pop up so on so forth from games 6+ months ago where you've changed but the fact was you still were toxic in several games warranting several minor cases go to tribunal to each be reviewed. So

Yes ideally humans should judge humans, but the next best thing is this

The Strapon2 votes

This also ties in racial and historical background. If we could go into ethics I can point out a case of discrimination. Like I said we shouldn't have machines make a judgement off one case and if that is the scenario, it should warrant human review.

Shouldn't an auto-ban word be filtered in the first place? There's just so many flaws which need to be taken into account and fixed. I'm not saying replace the system, just modify it to better represent a fair judgement. The algorithm for IFS has a lot of effort put into it obviously, but not enough to have it take place of all human judgement.

Magical Player1 votes

As they say they do, the system uses machine learning So in theory it adjusts to what the community sees as proper and improper.

and yes where the system isn't right in all cases, its pretty fair to say that the majority of cases its used in its right and riot acknowledge that it does makes mistakes and has unbanned/punished players for errored bans.

Filters don't work sadly, people find many ways to get around them all to easily things change daily much like prohibition, simply banning it changed nothing.

The system isn't basing a punishment off one case unless in the extreme cases of slurs etc but rather a history of behavior that results from several reports build up over time. Once you pass the tipping point you're punished.

Again machines are used to passed judgement simply due to the shear volume of cases being presented people would rather that people are being punished for being donkeys than let them roam free for 6+ months Riot won't hire 1000's of people to run the support staff needed to human review every case in a reasonable time, so again they modify their system to better align to the communities morals

The Strapon1 votes

However, if getting around the filter is possible then they are aware it is censored. However, the simple acronym KYS is not filtered. If it holds such heavy weight then it should be to inform the community or new members what is expected. Finding a way around that is a whole different case.

I am basing all this on clarity of what is expected. I never used the forums since season 1. You can see this account has played multiple seasons (season 1 doesn't show due to not being higher than gold).

V. Transmitting or communicating any content which, in the sole and exclusive discretion of Riot Games, is deemed offensive, including language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, or racially, ethically, or otherwise objectionable;

The simple acronym needs a solid definition stated to be given a complete meaning. I have no idea what objectionable is besides from the idea of racial slurs, homophobic comments, things to degrade the person based on adjectives and FULL words.

My problem is clarity and adjustment to better suit the clarity if people were to be judged by machines.

I have seen KYS used as the following:

  • Know your self
  • Kiss your s***
  • Kill your stereo

These are all common in the area I'm from.

Magical Player1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Strapon,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=uF6lbLEq,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-03T23:49:51.748+0000)

However, if getting around the filter is possible then they are aware it is censored. However, the simple acronym KYS is not filtered. If it holds such heavy weight then it should be to inform the community or new members what is expected. Finding a way around that is a whole different case.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/legal/termsofuse Section 5 Code of conduct iii. Harassing, stalking or threatening other users in the Game;

I really can't offer you anything more, the terms of use exists people are supposed to have read them prior to hitting that accept button

The Strapon1 votes

An acronym isn't a threat. Otherwise lol would be bannable.

Magical Player1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Strapon,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=uF6lbLEq,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-03T23:59:00.124+0000)

An acronym isn't a threat. Otherwise lol would be bannable.

KYS Kill your self is pushing self harm LOL is laughing out loud or League of Legends

So where as it might not be a threat, the game and the community often considers promoting self harm a no no

The Strapon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=uF6lbLEq,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-04T01:34:18.510+0000)

KYS Kill your self is pushing self harm LOL is laughing out loud or League of Legends

So where as it might not be a threat, the game and the community often considers promoting self harm a no no

As I said an acronym has different sayings which you just proved for me. It’s all relevant in context which makes the use of it bannable prone to fallacies.

There is no way to justify that when someone says KYS is in reference to killing one self. Just as I can say let’s play LOL lol. It could also mean loss of life. It’s all contextual which is why it would be nice to develop the machine to learn that.

Yes it would be a nuisance, but it literally takes 20 seconds to see the context of what happened via chat logs or the game per ticket which is a sure way to help develop guidelines for the machine to learn.

Until that does happen if KYS is such a harmful offense it should be censored no? It appears to be heavily tied to that and people are dead set on that, so why not make a change.

I’m simply trying to progress this further. I know people that I treat who use league as an escape and having them banned for saying something different from their intent is more than enough to push them over. Just when you feel like your life is bearable and you get an unfair punishment in the one thing that gave you pleasure.

I just want two things: Have the word itself censored since it has such a negative connotation and to also help develop the machine to be able to detect context of scenarios like this. It’s all a progression. And it would be nice for someone on the development team to see this and see the concerns it arises.

This is all in the matter of debate of the topic. You can possibly have a typo of kys and get reported for something else but get banned for it. Something I plan on attempting on one of my alts to prove a point when I get the free time to do so.

But as I stated KYS does have multiple meanings. It’s even a record label if you didn’t know that, which predates the use of self harm. It’s just difficult to assume someone said kill yourself without using context to make such a judgement.

Magical Player1 votes

If you make LOL mean Lose yOur Life, then there'd be a problem. However it won't come to that because society/this community has come to a generally accepted understanding of what it means. League of Legends or Laugh out Loud

'Until that does happen if KYS is such a harmful offense it should be censored no? It appears to be heavily tied to that and people are dead set on that, so why not make a change" Prohibition banned alcohol what happened we drank more alcohol and then we got the mob. Banning things never solves everything, people find loop holes to get around it. So censoring it just makes people use something else, eventually you just remove the chat entirely since everything is censored

The machine has all the information and under what context is hate speech acceptable? Riot has already stated to have zero tolerance for hate speech or self harm Even joking around with saying the word has many meanings is pointless If you play this game, you abide by their rules. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?page=5&term=KYS

I don't write the rule book, but I agree with it everytime I sign into the game.

I'd love to see the accidental typo of KYS, this has been made before in others posts.Nobody buys it

The Strapon1 votes

I want you to know that you are using urban dictionary as a reference which is quite silly. It's just the fact that you're so quick to assume the other half of things are incorrect as opposed to taking things from a different perspective. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with their rules as I have stated before. I have been playing the game at least a year before you have and you can check my trophies to prove just that. My only suspension involves a one day ban due to a storm that created extremely spotty internet. You're just going in circles right now. I am trying to progress to make a change and further clarify what Riot expects.

There is no hard definition saying KYS means kill yourself in a harmful manner. As such is why a simple censorship will allow individuals to know it is not permissible to use. Did you know that a derogatory word was bad all on your own? No society implies what is bad by trying to censor what you say.

I have done more for suicide and depression than almost anyone if not all the people commenting on this thread and I almost did kill myself. So if anything I'm more of an advocate against self inflicting harm than you can possibly imagine.

Like I mentioned earlier, people do have different definitions for acronyms. Choosing not to believe that is simply being narrow minded. In addition, believing that everyone knows it means one thing is erroneous.

I believe in allowing fair judgement to be passed. How does 3 letters define someone if you have no clue it is offensive, what it stands for, and the take the company has toward it. There are no explicit mentioning of KYS = inflicting self harm or = a threat.

A threat is "a statement of an intention to inflict pain". (An actual dictionary for reference here)

You're simply not getting my point of progressing to make the machine better in addition to explicitly letting people know what riot expects from them. I understand that a majority of cases are open and shut, but why do the few who aren't have to get lumped into it? You never even bothered to note the possibility of an improper ban actually causing more harm than good to an individual.

People have all types of different obsessions, and for some league is what it is.

Magical Player1 votes

Im OG as OG gets, aside those beta players SEASON 1 all the way, you check it from my trophies, MY OG BRONZE 1 cup ICON

You're right people use different acronyms for different things the community at alrge believes KYS means kill your self riot agrees with that so riot bans for it

if riot clarifies what the rules are, they open up loopholes in their super grey contract

KKK means what? You'll probably say Ku klux Klan, but hey random joe doesn't know the meaning so its cool for him to say KKK all day everyday because he doesn't know the meaning. Sounds a tad silly doesn't it

Why should we make exceptions to what are considered normal meanings? F%%% im sure you can fill in the blank dictionary defition means bundle of sticks social defintion means what again? homophobic slur.

So Urban dictionary is more built towards social definitions which change based on user input.

Majority of players don't go around using acroynms to begin with

The Strapon1 votes

To be quite fair, I actually use kkk on the daily especially when texting....

We can assume what F%%% means due to the censorship of the words. That's a psychological concept.

But regardless, having a super grey contract leaves more room for stuff like this to happen. You can't necessarily blame someone for saying what they normally do and get punished for it then be ????.

In no legal statement does Riot state that KYS is a objectionable. If it was it would be at least censored or referenced in ToS. I've read it multiple times. Saying an acronym with no definite meaning to get banned is just plain silly.

And to counter your use of social definition.... Go to dictionary.com and enter any homophobic slur. If society truly has accepted that definition then it would be made official in a trusted source. I've never seen KYS used as to kill yourself and like I said it's my job to deal with people who are most prone to it. The only time I've seen KYS used was about 3 years ago with friends who were just trolling me and mentioned an alternate meaning. As a result, false information developed and here we are today with no clarity.

Especially since this acronym is rarely used you really can't blame anyone for making the same mistake. However, it is a common acronym within my group because it's an alternate definition that we use. The use of censorship will within the right of riot prove it is objectionable and categorize it according to the ToS.

It's just like how any other phrase that warrants an immediate suspension is censored. The system hasn't let players know of bait banning. In literally 2 days on this board, I see it more frequently. So this is an issue.

CreampEye1 votes

[deleted]

The Strapon1 votes

{quoted}

And this is why myself and my associates have been able to exploit this system to produce thousands of bans over the past two years.

It's just a flawed system in my eyes that does not truly identify a player's intentions or actions. Consistency is important in cases like this.

nerak231 votes

In no legal statement does Riot state that KYS is a objectionable. If it was it would be at least censored or referenced in ToS. I've read it multiple times. Saying an acronym with no definite meaning to get banned is just plain silly.

Riot doesn't need to specify it, in fact such a thing could encourage angry players to use it.

Also, I don't see why something has to be in any dictionary to make a difference in this context. I'll explain why, for the sake of discussion.--

There are people who go out of their way to hurt other players in League. They find some things ( words or actions) that get a reaction then they habitually use this.

When a phrase gets pick up and used a lot it may be determined against the TOS. When that happens, often posters will just misspelled the word, or use an acronym but meaning the same insult. I seen it happen on a sub-section of the boards within hours sometimes.

Of course, it takes longer to get the majority to use the now "new" insult yet it still happens quickly. Far to quickly for a internet dictionary to pick it out and decide to include it. Riot also needs time to review, understand how the player base would like it dealt with (as they tend to do ) It also takes a lot of time and money to write the programs.

This is only a part of the problem with your argument, IMO.

The Strapon1 votes

{quoted}

There are people who go out of their way to hurt other players in League. They find some things ( words or actions) that get a reaction then they habitually use this.

How can you prove that someone was provoked to retaliate? No one is a perfect human and in a fair trial the aggressor would be punished more severely than the victim.

Riot generate billions in revenue each year.

How can you define something for everyone when it has no given meaning in a dictionary? Seems like a tyranny. I educate myself through reading books, not boards with people who complain about a suspension. Literally half the people who commented on this post were more focused on pointing out against the fact of the use of the term as opposed to the concept behind it.

If someone committed suicide because of an unfair ban in being aggravated, what would you do? Do you take blame? Do you blame the individual for seeking help and trying to feel good through league?

This is my concern. Me, I don't care I have multiple accounts that I own over the past couple of years playing this game. Where is the justice being served when people are innocent or to the aggressors who use bait ban?

For the record, internet dictionaries are updated quite frequently. The first time I heard the term KYS for an alternate meaning was three years ago which at the time was used more frequently to tell someone to eat shit and later on to shut up in my neighborhood. Sources like urban dictionary are like Wikipedia. You can't use these as valid references in any solid work. You can use the sources they use; however, quoting something that anyone can change is illogical.

How can you prove the intent behind a saying?

A dictionary is there to inform people what is the meaning behind words. An acronym has no meaning beyond what the user intends and informs. I can't say lol and have you think it stands for league of legends. However, if you would like to associate meaning with an acronym as objectionable and against ToS ** THEN CENSOR IT**. This is the issue in using a simplistic robot to define what is right and wrong - context as you said. How exactly am I supposed to know what riot considers right or wrong? Censorship does exactly that. To prove that point, even a Riot support employee agreed with me.

nerak231 votes

For the record, internet dictionaries are updated quite frequently. The first time I heard the term KYS for an alternate meaning was three years ago which at the time was used more frequently to tell someone to eat shit and later on to shut up in my neighborhood

For the Record, This very issue about telling others to "off " themselves Was disused on this board at least 3 years ago By Riot itself while trying to figure out what exactly should be punished and how. That has changed to include the players opinions and the seemingly increased use of the term/s.

You said you wanted to discus this Now I feel like you are attacking !! I stated early and late in the post Opinions and discussions like You asked for. I could argue this with you with your way ! But I'm not going to lower my standards.

Also:

If someone committed suicide because of an unfair ban in being aggravated, what would you do? Do you take blame? Do you blame the individual for seeking help and trying to feel good through league?

I wouldn't Do Anything as I Didn't do anything bad to the imaginary person. Dude, you're very aggressive and pompous in your post to me, go ahead and look that word up.

bye bye, have a nice day .

The Strapon2 votes

My sole purpose of this thread was to **get the term KYS censored and to encourage development of the algorithm that runs the IFS. **

Being unable to differentiate a tone in text is a valuable skill to develop. I already know what pompous means, thanks for assuming that I am an inferior individual as opposed to an equal. You pointed out flaws in my argument - and I refuted by stating why your points were not necessarily valid. It's literally how you debate and I'm sorry if you had no response, but in no way was anything I have said aggressive. Asking for you to think things from a different perspective is entirely different than attacking you as an individual.

If I wanted to be pompous, I'd speak about my educational background. In no where have I stated I am superior to anyone in any aspect. I have mentioned not using this board because it seriously lacks perspective and you can track my posts on this 8 year old account to literally the start of this thread.

Thanks for trying to discuss the topic at hand. Have a good day and try not to take everything so critically.

Magical Player2 votes

Riot could censor it , like it does with hate speech, it doesn't remove it from the game and even then people just get creative in using hate speech so Censoring won't work, in my opinion And riot already updates the IFS to challenge the toxicity, nobody here outside a rioter can really go into more depth about it. Sorry but Im out of my field now, best of luck

The Strapon2 votes

Appreciate the discussion friend and thank you.

You are absolutely correct in that it doesn't remove it. It simply makes things a lot more open shut and close cases.

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