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Three (imperfect but hopefully useful) examples of retaliatory toxic behavior in real life.

Firu·4/17/2016, 1:45:11 PM·14 votes·2,024 views

  1. Co-worker says you're stupid and a [insert racial slur]. You respond by calling them an idiot and a [racial slur].
    Result? Both punished by your boss and/or possibly lose your jobs.

  2. Kid punches you in the playground. You punch kid back in playground.
    Result? Both get disciplined by school.

  3. You get punched at a bar. You punch the person back at the bar.
    Result? You both get kicked out of bar and/or kicked out of bar.

League is similar. If you respond to toxicity with more toxicity then all you're ensuring is that you both get punished. You may disagree and say that your responses are morally "allowed" (by your own personal code) but Riot has stated that such responses are not allowed by their code. And by playing the game and agreeing to the EULA, you are agreeing to adhere to their code and not yours.

These examples are just broad generalizations but I hope get at the gist of what Riot is trying to say: Two wrongs don't make a right.

EDIT 1: Here is a quote from a recent post by Rhojin that I believe is relevant to what I was getting at. Mind you, I titled my original post as "imperfect"! This is reflected in that some people have provided views that physical violence may be something different (as described in example 2 and 3).

I don't see this the scenario with two people duking it out in a fight that started with someone punching someone else working, as there is no violence or any physical altercations taking place. Not to mention rules and laws in the real world are set and enforced differently that the rules and regulations of a video game. These in game situations are more of a shouting match in the middle of an establishment where all parties involved are asked to leave and not come back until they cool off.

  • Rhojin

EDIT 2: I think people have done a good job of pointing out weaknesses and strengths in the examples. And I wanted to clarify that my goal for these examples was to try and foster a conversation. In addition, to try and draw some parallels between in-person and online interactions.

People are entitled to feel whatever they feel in regards to how they would respond to each situation. What I just want to emphasize now is that there are repercussions to acting on those feelings or not acting on them.

Finally, thank you all for being respectful in your responses on either side of the conversation!

43 Comments

Joe Dredd4/17/2016, 2:35:41 PM4 votes

Kid punches you in the playground. You punch kid back in playground. Result? Both get disciplined by school.

You get punched at a bar. You punch the person back at the bar. Result? You both get kicked out of bar and/or kicked out of bar.

both of these are retarded

No flash no life4/17/2016, 2:03:52 PM3 votes

waiting to see how long till someone goes " you're talking about real life and this is a game."

Dehitay4/17/2016, 8:37:15 PM2 votes

Ignoring that where I'm from, the retaliatory action from 2 and 3 wouldn't get punished, I think the bigger difference in comparisons to league is that you're implying that League will punish the initial problem maker at the same rate the instigator in all these situations would be punished. If somebody insults you at work or assaults you in public and you go tell the nearest authority figure, there is almost always a valid investigation that will typically lead to the instigator getting punished. If Riot wanted to, they could easily record every match and reinstate the tribunal to do preparatory investigation for them and then take a look at who got marked guilty and crack down on them. But they just straight up don't.

Firu4/18/2016, 3:38:28 PM2 votes

I edited my original post by adding a few lines at the end, including a quote from Rioter Rhojin that I thought might be relevant.

I don't see this the scenario with two people duking it out in a fight that started with someone punching someone else working, as there is no violence or any physical altercations taking place. Not to mention rules and laws in the real world are set and enforced differently that the rules and regulations of a video game. These in game situations are more of a shouting match in the middle of an establishment where all parties involved are asked to leave and not come back until they cool off.

  • Rhojin
Mister Punches4/17/2016, 8:30:06 PM2 votes

[quote]Kid punches you in the playground. You punch kid back in playground. Result? Both get disciplined by school.[/quote]

This is actually a really poor example, and heavily emphasizes that bullying other kids is alright, since you'll both get in trouble: The bully for being a jerk, and the person being bullied for defending themselves.

I would say that the first example you gave was great though. The third one, it's a stretch, but also a decent example.

Niyumi4/18/2016, 11:20:47 AM1 votes

\1. Person is upset and calls you a name. You, in your ever-present vanity, take it personally and get all upset. Since your boss is required by law to uphold political correctness, you get in trouble -- all in the name of vanity.

Solution? Learn to identify by, you know, things that are in your control, like who you are and what kind of person you are, instead of something like color.

\2. Kids get in a fight, school teaches them to be meek pushovers.

Solution? Teach kids to stand up for themselves without being violent, instead of forcing it into their brain that they need to bend over for anyone who comes their way.

\3. Happens all the time, and isn't really a big deal. The people don't get permanently banned from the bar, but may have their drinking privilege restricted slightly.

Solution? Don't try to control people. If people wanna beat each other up, who are you to tell them otherwise?

So, teaching people to be fucking brats who whine and cry about the slightest remark is not a good thing in any case. Why would you advocate that? Really wish people like you didn't take over gaming -- F2P wouldn't be a thing, companies would still give a damn, and people wouldn't get permanently banned over CHAT in a VIDEO GAME.

Ramming your ideals and morals down someone else's throat is wrong as well, so where do you get off acting like you're better than anyone else?

Penns4/18/2016, 12:24:21 PM1 votes
  1. Co-worker says youre stupid and a [racial slur]. You respond by calling him an idiot. Thats it. Result? Because in League, both get punished.

Not sure about 2 and 3 since you got attacked first..

Lothàrs Edge4/18/2016, 10:26:04 AM1 votes

Why a co-worker? We're playing a game aren't we? Let's compare a more similar situation... how about... a game? Let's pick basketball for simplicity's sake.

You hang out at a community center to play ball, but there are different people everyday.

Some random stranger on your own team starts mouthing off about you either directly or indirectly. Perhaps another teammate joins in. They shout out how much of a b!&$% you are and how poorly you're performing. Maybe some of the people on the opposing team also join in.

(A typical scenario for any online competitive game, but probably unlikely to happen anywhere near as frequently IRL.)

You give the people who are giving you a hard time the finger and you tell them to f&@k off. They insult you more, and more. Usually, people would leave if they're being harassed to that extent (but that isn't allowed- if there was a workaround that would be stellar). You insult them back, either in the same fashion or using your own witty remarks.

Result? Either you or their egos were squashed temporarily. Or neither.

Alright. Well it's physically impossible to punch someone but let's say a kid was punching/bullying another kid and after the 4th or 5th time he gets fed up and slams him on the floor (saw a video of this happening). Needless to say, I rooted for the kid who stood up for himself. Don't care whether or not the school needs to discipline him in order to maintain an image. At the end of the day, that bully isn't going to touch him anymore. He's learned his place. Sometimes friendship can even blossom out of a fight. It's happened more than once to me.

If you get punched at a bar and you don't fight back... wow, you're gonna be a laughing stock and let's just say you might not want to walk into that bar again. But then again the area I reside in could be different from yours, so maybe people aren't as shallow there. But let's say my friend gets hurt by someone else and two other people gang up on him. Do I watch and leave because "retaliating" is bad? No. If someone is roasting my friend, mentally or physically, I'm going to defend them however I see fit.

There's a reason for the saying, "don't poke the beast".

Billybaroo23144/18/2016, 5:20:08 PM1 votes

Some of the solutions to problems here and the blindness to the real world astounds me. I played organized sports, I played in high school and college (not good enough to be pro but not the point) and NEVER in any team situation that was truly in a competative (sp) environment were you allowed to bully your team mates. You were NEVER allowed to put them down, why....the coach did not kick you both off the team....but the problem was removed (the bully) or disciplined (usually by running a few miles) first.

At work, your co-worker goes off on you and uses a racial slur, it's not hard to just walk away and report it as the law will back you, and that PERSON will get fired, not both of you. YOU ARE ALLOWED TO DEFEND YOURSELF BY LAW WHEN ATTACKED FIRST. I don't know where you get the idea, outside of school, that both are going to be punished. The "cooling off" period when both are punished NEVER WORKS as the bully usually gets what they want and we are teaching people not to report the real problem

Yes this is a game, but when you go into ranked people do expect you to play with a little concept of team unity. There is NEVER any real team that you can act half the way people do here and get away with it. I'm sorry, but the argument that "thats the way it is" is just wrong.

Teamwork is OP, always has been, always will be. If you know you are in bronze you expect people to struggle as this is the learning area, maybe the one thing I would say to Riot is make it so people can get out. You have Multiple levels of play with multiple ranks. People who just started playing ranked, and my have few skills should be in bronze 5. That is the starter rank to learn to play ranked. But being stuck in bronze 5 with winning records they have learned the game basics and need to be able to advance. No good solution here, but something is wrong when people can be 10-20 wins over .500 and stuck in bronze 4-5 after a while.

DREADN0UGHT4/18/2016, 6:43:34 PM1 votes

if someone puches me in real life, I won't run to the bouncer like ''WAHHHHH THIS GUY PUNCHED MEEEEE''

I'll fucking sock his eyes is what I'll do.

BakedLotion4/18/2016, 7:18:39 PM1 votes

Except that you get punished for saying anything negative even if it's barely negative. Like if someone kept pinging at you and spamming chat and you say "shut up" Would you punish that? Riot does. Over the plenty of chat logs i've read, some people are really light on this "toxic" behavior yet they still get banned and insulted by the community and get teased because they don't even read the logs. They just automatically assume that they got banned because they were toxic. How do people expect others to improve their behavior if you just dismiss them lmao

Austinodood4/18/2016, 7:26:00 PM1 votes

thank the lord someone finally said it

Fovere4/18/2016, 7:58:14 PM1 votes
  1. I doubt most people would choose to escalate in this situation. You'd most likely brush it off the first time or try to talk the person down, you might file a complain or wait for it to happen again. You could walk away from the person, immediately go to the supervisor/boss, you could leave work, you have a million options open to you.

The one thing you don't have to do is sit there and take it, politely trying to ignore the person's outburst and continue working withthem, which is exactly what you are expected to do in League. If you did -that- in real life people would certainly be a lot more wary of you than if you had fired back some nasty retort

  1. Basically the same situation as #1, except there would be a lot less liability on the person who retaliates, given that he could be perceived as defending himself from a physical attack.

Again, many options available as to how to deal with the situation. The one option you absolutely wouldn't be expected to take it to get hit in the face, smile at your attacker, and pick up your ball and keep playing with him, maybe politely asking him not to do that again.

  1. This particular example conveniently ignores the part where the police get called and the initiator is held liable for the entire thing. Oops.

But again, same plethora of options open. The one thing you aren't expected to do is get your ass up off the floor, smile at your attacker through your broken teeth, and offer to buy him a drink and watch some sports.

The theme in all these examples is control. League takes most of your control away. You have very few options open to you. You are not only stuck with this person but your experience in game depends on you cooperating with this person. There's basically two options, either swallow it and keep quiet, or lash out

In the real world you're able to assess a situation and deal with it immediately. If your co-worker or playground companion crosses a line and you know they have gone beyond your ability to handle within socially acceptable norms, you can get halt the game/meeting/workday/whatever and immediately resolve the problem, with a visible outcome so everyone can move forward. There is no conflict resolution in a League game, whatever might happen -eventually- to the players involved, nothing is going to happen during the altercation to resolve the problem and allow everyone to move forward and play.

Fovere4/18/2016, 8:40:26 PM1 votes

Erdrik all you are showing is how people can rationalize anything and use browbeating try and win an argument.

Most people respond to strength, which is why traits relating to image are stronger predictors than actual intellectual or mechanical ability. Failing to respond to someone's aggression can be just as harmful as posturing, depending on the person