@Riot behavior team; Zero to perma-ban, what is happening?

Dominick Destine··3 votes·921 views

I went through a very traumatic ordeal and have seen other people talk about going through the same. These people and I have one thing in common; We were all toxic but were at zero punishment tier. Note the admission of guilt; None of these people (That I've seen) claimed to be innocent.... their argument was my argument, "I was never toxic enough to justify THIS " (Zero to perma-ban)

Although I doubt I will get a response, I want to know what is happening that players are being given the maximum sentence from zero, completely bypassing all punishment tiers and violating established protocol. This is extremely unorthodox and against Riot's precedent.... except in cases of ultra-toxic behavior , which neither these people nor I engaged in.

Ignore me if you like, it's not like you haven't done it before.... but I want to know if this has been a horrible oversight or if you intended to completely destroy your player's faith in you/your system in such a fashion.

Riot has said many times that going from zero to perma-ban is something that occurs a very small fraction of the time, out of a very small fraction of players that get perma banned. So we're talking about the 0.1% of the 0.1% ish, the worst of the worst.... SO WHY ARE MID-TO-LOW LEVEL TOXICITY PLAYERS BEING SUBJECTED TO IT? These perma-bans were done manually.... this was not a system error. Do you understand how atrocious that is?

I have no power, Riot has the power and can do whatever they want. But as a player that's been with them since season 1, this has shaken my loyalty against them more than anything else ever could. This was a very deep betrayal and the lack of explanation as to what happened is the equivalent of pouring salt on the wound. What happened? some people have said I am a "Riot fanboy" and a "Suck up"... maybe they were right because if someone had told me that Riot had perma-banned them from zero punishment level, I would have called them a liar. Even if they rescinded the order... well, more like reduced it to the second-worst level punishment tier (WTF?), that's still incredibly egregious.

I wanted to believe that it was a simple clerical error, but being told repeatedly that this was done purposefully by a Riot employee makes me seriously doubt their system, their employees and their company. What went wrong? what happened?

25 Comments

scazzman2 votes

my guess is either A. its due to the recent ban wave for scripting "most likely" B. they're cracking down on a behavior they haven't been before "at least not as hard" such as flamebaiting or passive aggressive trolling C. it's a bug

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

my guess is either A. its a ban wave for scripting "most likely"

No. I was perma-banned specifically for toxicity, so were several others .... without being given chat logs, any sort of reform card or going through the punishment tier system.

You are wrong.

B. they're cracking down on a behavior they haven't been before "at least not as hard" such as flamebaiting or passive aggressive trolling

That's not wrong. But going from zero to perma-ban is not something that should be done for low to mid level toxicity.... but if it is, that would be fine as long as Riot told us that was the case. They did not. They have kept quiet.

C. it's a bug

It was not a bug, the perma-bans were done manually.

This has been stated repeatedly by Riot themselves.

scazzman1 votes

permabans are done by the bot now as well from what i understand

Dominick Destine1 votes

It was not a bug, the perma-bans were done manually. This has been stated repeatedly by Riot themselves.

scazzman1 votes

i can also understand if flamebaiting gets escalated punishments now. because of how many people are complainging about it being a problem

Dominick Destine1 votes

that would be fine as long as Riot told us that was the case. They did not. They have kept quiet.

scazzman1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=srkzE1QI,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-05-21T18:29:23.358+0000)

im guessing we're going to see a statement from riot soon

AramsAreBest1 votes

I wouldn't mind if there was no chat rules but then you'd get a lot of players playing worse because theyd be too busy typing.

Happy Jack2 votes

Happened to me.

I deserved punishment; mildly negative attitude, usually reflected in the lobby. Never manifest in gameplay, always played to win.

Probably shoulda got a chat restriction, not an instant bump to permanent suspension given my account was in good standing.

At least I was reduced to 2 week ban, which I can't argue with because I deserved some discipline (a chat restriction probably woulda sufficed).

Here's my post a few weeks ago about it:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/EoL90NIf-riot-a-note-about-my-egregious-permanent-ban

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Jack,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=srkzE1QI,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-22T03:08:39.820+0000)

Here's my post a few weeks ago about it:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/EoL90NIf-riot-a-note-about-my-egregious-permanent-ban

Let me see your thread....

Oh wow, that's EXACTLY what happened to me, almost to verbatim;

Perma Banned out of no where. No discipline since 2014. Occasionally I say things like "gg", "open mid", "I'm done" or I call out a troll / feeder. At most this would make me a candidate for Chat Restriction which starts me on progressive discipline. NEVER do use vulgarities/racial slurs/homophobic slurs/sexist slurs/obscene language/berate players and so on. I have received no email, reform card or any communication from Riot. Why on earth have I been Perma Banned?

I hadn't been punished since multiple years. I am toxic but certainly not to the degree of going from zero to perma ban. I never use vulgarities/racial slurs/homophobic slurs/etc. I received no information in my email (I did get an email but it explained fuck all) I got no reform card or response from Riot explaining my situation.

"Why was I perma banned"? beats the fiddle sticks out of me.

Happy Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=srkzE1QI,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-05-22T04:45:59.621+0000)

Let me see your thread....

Oh wow, that's EXACTLY what happened to me, almost to verbatim;

I hadn't been punished since multiple years. I am toxic but certainly not to the degree of going from zero to perma ban. I never use vulgarities/racial slurs/homophobic slurs/etc. I received no information in my email (I did get an email but it explained fuck all) I got no reform card or response from Riot explaining my situation.

"Why was I perma banned"? beats the fiddle sticks out of me.

I disagree with the term toxic. It's used way to broadly.

Having a negative attitude because of x, y and z is simply being in a bad mood.

Rude, bad mannered, blunt, tactless, inconsiderate and similar terms more aptly describe much of the low level negative chat in LoL . . . . Including mine.

Toxic, conveys a more serious charge of obscene, hate speech, vulgar, berating players, purposefully losing games and so on.

Sour players should be addressed and disciplined... but the distinction between obscene toxicity and frustrated players has been blurred.

The difference is real, and it's high time some in the thin skinned community remember this.

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Jack,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=srkzE1QI,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-22T05:28:03.854+0000)

The difference is real, and it's high time some in the thin skinned community remember this.

I agree.

There is something that is going horribly wrong and it might stem from the distinctions they are not making.

TrulyBland1 votes

This is extremely unorthodox and against Riot's precedent.... except in cases of ultra-toxic behavior , which neither these people nor I engaged in.

How do you know they didn't engage in this kind of behaviour? You are jumping to conclusions here. Yours might have been a rare case. Honestly, it's even difficult to judge how bad of a mistake your permaban was without knowing your logs. This could be anything from "oh well, I guess it's a grey area" to "Holy shit, how did they fuck up this badly?".

I understand that you might not even be interested in your logs, seeing as your perma was removed... but anybody that doesn't get it removed should absolutely be interested in their logs. And if it truly is some sort of an abuse in power that manages to trickle through all possible checks and balances you can always turn to the forums.

I've hardly ever seen cases where people posted chat logs when claiming they didn't deserve an instant permaban. And the few cases I've seen have been smited eventually, because they were either lying about not having been punished previously, or there were other factors not visible in chatlogs.

Mistakes happen, and I'll be the first to admit that we should always be critical of systems like this. But when there is this much transparency (at least when it comes to toxicity-based bans), I find it difficult to believe that these errors are frequent; and even more difficult that those errors are not undone upon sending in a ticket and investigating the case.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

How do you know they didn't engage in this kind of behaviour?

I suppose the only proof I have is their word.

You are jumping to conclusions here. Yours might have been a rare case. Honestly, it's even difficult to judge how bad of a mistake your permaban was without knowing your logs.

I was not given any chat logs but I will acknowledge that I am a toxic player.

But not toxic enough to go from zero-to-permaban is my whole point.... anyone of sound mind would realize this if they analyzed the data from my history (Last punishment against me was multiple years ago).

This could be anything from "oh well, I guess it's a grey area" to "Holy shit, how did they fuck up this badly?".

I'm leaning towards the latter....

I understand that you might not even be interested in your logs

You're right.... but not because I am no longer perma-banned rather because I know exactly what would be found in my logs. Toxicity. But mid to low level at best.... though I would like to see the logs anyway so I could post them here and let others judge, I'd probably get exactly the same conclusions I am giving; "Yeah, you're toxic but not enough to go from zero to permaban" etc etc.

Probably 90% of my games have a variant on; (something goes wrong in game) Me: "Why didn't you react?!/assist/do X" - "Why did you afk?! / Continue to cs during a major (team fight/gank/etc.)" (Argument starts) Me: "Yeah okay, just putting you on ignore..." / "Rule #1, never argue with trolls... just put them on ignore"

And (Team is getting completely destroyed/dominated) "Open mid?" (Argument starts) "I don't mind losing, but why waste time? it's been over for awhile" (etc.)

Or in the most extreme cases (very rarely); "gg garbage team" / "elo hell exists" Even in most cases where my team lost horribly, I usually just said at the end; "Dat damage chart" and left it at that

Point being; I am toxic, but not that toxic.

And the few cases I've seen have been smited eventually, because they were either lying about not having been punished previously, or there were other factors not visible in chatlogs.

But I admit I was punished previously... only that it was done YEARS ago.

I should have dropped to zero level punishment tier by now.

Mistakes happen

I would be fine even if it wasn't a mistake, I'd be 100% accepting of a perma-ban as long as it was explained to me what I did wrong.

My problem is their complete radio silence. Don't you get this?

TrulyBland2 votes

I'm actually uncertain as to what you mean with the radio silence. Radio silence in regards to what?

Reasons for individual punishments? It sucks that manually distributed punishments don't send logs with them, but having to write a support ticket is hardly "radio silence".

The issue of low to mid level toxicity yielding bans? As said, I don't actually believe that this issue really exists in the form you are presenting it. People have always denied deserving their punishment. None of this is new. And as long as actual outliers are treated fast enough, I don't see any need for Riot to make a public announcement whenever they issue a wrong punishment.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually uncertain as to what you mean with the radio silence. Radio silence in regards to what?

Going from zero to permaban with no chat logs, no warnings, no punishment tier escalation.

Email received late and with zero information. Riot members actively opted not to give me information on this forum. In-game ban message gave no information beyond "You are permabanned, if you want details, go eff yourself" ok ok it didn't exactly say that but it might as well have... more to the point though; Toxicity permabans give you a pretty detailed explanation whereas mine said NOTHING.

Reasons for individual punishments? It sucks that manually distributed punishments don't send logs with them, but having to write a support ticket is hardly "radio silence".

The multiple days I was permabanned with no response by their support team and the response I eventually got which gave me no information beyond "Yep, you punishment will be decreased" is what I'm talking about.

The issue of low to mid level toxicity yielding bans? As said, I don't actually believe that this issue really exists in the form you are presenting it.

Then you're simply wrong.

People have always denied deserving their punishment.

Except I and those like me, did not.

If you will review the multiple threads similar to mine the only thing people like me asked for was information, not a presidential pardon. It's not complicated.

TrulyBland2 votes

Then you're simply wrong.

And that's where I take my leave. I've already explained to you that there is absolutely no proof of these allegations. In fact, the lack of evidence for it, in this case, makes a strong case against it, considering the fact that outside of scripters people do get very detailed explanations as to why they were banned.

And even though I understand your point about it taking a long time to get that information, this is not what you are complaining about in the OP. At least not for the majority of the post.

First paragraph paraphrased: There are a lot of people who are convinced they didn't deserve their instant permaban. Second paragraph paraphrased: Instant permabans are for extreme behaviour that those people didn't engage in. Third paragraph paraphrased: The previous reasons shattered my belief in the system. Fourth paragraph paraphrased verbatim: SO WHY ARE MID-TO-LOW LEVEL TOXICITY PLAYERS BEING SUBJECTED TO IT? The fifth parapgraph is the only paragraph that talks about the lack of information. And even that one focusses a lot on the lack of information about the issue you present, of people being permabanned instantly without deserving it.

So yes, you do deny deserving the punishment, and even though those others might not, you are denying it on their behalf. And that is my problem with this thread. It is generalizing to the extreme that Riot suddenly has to answer to an issue that is not different from before. A lot of people denying that they deserved a punishment, just with a little extra that they're also too impatient to wait for the result of their support ticket.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I've already explained to you that there is absolutely no proof of these allegations.

Aside from the cases we've been observing, including mine.

Yep.

First paragraph paraphrased: There are a lot of people who are convinced they didn't deserve their instant permaban.

Strawman argument. Good try though.

Second paragraph paraphrased: Instant permabans are for extreme behaviour that those people didn't engage in.

Correct.

The fifth parapgraph is the only paragraph that talks about the lack of information.

Yeah it's almost as if I was prefacing and building up to that. What is formatting for 500 Alex?

even though those others might not, you are denying it on their behalf.

I don't remember ever stating my innocence, in fact I specifically stated otherwise.

But once again, good strawman argument.

And that is my problem with this thread. It is generalizing to the extreme

Except there were no generalizations made. It is referring to specific cases delimited within timeline (Recently/S6).

Once again and for the third time, nice strawman argument. You had nothing of value to present.

aj502 Oneill1 votes

You're right.... but not because I am no longer perma-banned rather because I know exactly what would be found in my logs.

Did you get unbanned? If so, was there an explanation?

Primaquarius1 votes

He probably hacked the game <Kappa>

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Wait, didn't Riot already unban your account and put you back at the third punishment tier (though I may be wrong and you may have been set back to 0) a week ago?

Did it just happen again?

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

Wait, didn't Riot already unban your account and put you back at the third punishment tier (though I may be wrong and you may have been set back to 0) a week ago?

Did it just happen again?

I am at 2-week suspension tier.

No, it did not happen again.... however after the wave of relief faded, I realized how seriously botched their treatment of my case was... as I perused this board subsection I saw other cases nearly identical to mine and am wondering what the fiddle sticks is happening at Riot.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Ah, alright.

Primaquarius1 votes

I really doubt it

DrCyanide1 votes

How much do you want to bet that the most Support can do is put players to two-week ban level?

I think the problem with this board is there is so much white noise that it's hard to see the legitimate cases that need attention. "Does this really deserve a ban?!" is the title of most topics where the person worked their way up, punishment tier by punishment tier, but the same title could describe someone who went zero-to-permabanned.

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