We should be giving Riot suggestions on how to fix toxicity instead of just harassing them.

Ahpe·7/12/2018, 4:55:34 AM·2 votes·3,174 views

We're always always harassing Riot for not doing good enough and not being smart enough for the community, but that doesn't help anything. When has non-constructive criticism ever helped anyone? Never. We should actively be discussing ways to deal with toxicity in our community, but this effort shouldn't be one-sided either. There should also be a couple or more rioters assigned to this issue and help discuss ways to finally deal with toxicity in our community.

Seeing how the league forums have so many posts complaining about toxicity everyday and how big this problem is, I'd say it's worth it.

Let's start somewhere, my idea is if you're found to be toxic, you should be forced to watch a video by Riot. The video should include:

• An explanation of what the player did and why it does not adhere to League's policies • Tips on how they could improve their behaviour • The video should not be able to be paused • The video should have buttons you have to repeatedly press through out the video to make sure you're paying attention

  • If you fail to press the button, the video resets • After you've successfully watch the video, there should be a quiz on the video make sure you were paying attention
  • So you won't just be able find the answers online, there should be multiple versions of the same videos(16+ variations?) • The video and quiz will only be provided after your original punishment(mute/suspension/ban) has been endured

Start the discussion [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

22 Comments

Yatol7/12/2018, 12:23:59 PM2 votes

i want the ability to self mute, so people can type as much crap as they want but nobody can see it. that way they can vent their frustration and their teammate dont have to hear it

Voldymort7/12/2018, 6:23:42 AM2 votes

what did you expect? it's always easyer to blame someone else than yourself

Also last time i checked, it's not riot's job to educate it's playerbase on what is nice and what isn't. you either grew up knowing the difference or you didn't. it's not riot's problem. it's yours.

Umbral Regent7/12/2018, 7:22:52 PM2 votes

I don't particularly agree with this idea, because largely, it introduces an unnecessary level of tedium into the process of punishment and reform - especially with the additions of foolproofing against guesswork or AFK'ing through the video. Don't get me wrong, though - the foolproofing is in and of itself pretty damn sound, but there are still some issues with the idea beyond them.

  • An explanation of what the player did and why it does not adhere to League's policies

One of the biggest issues that I can see is that the videos would have to be tailored to suit all branches of punishable behaviors; excessive negativity, harassment, flaming, hate speech, intentional feeding/trolling, etc., and that would take quite a lot of cost and effort to get right. And, even then...What they get right may not even work.

Personally speaking, I think that the current reform card format (chat logs or links to games) works miles better than a video would. Especially since...

  • The video should not be able to be paused

You can't pause the video to take notes or reference your reform card or anything like that. Ideally, if you want someone to learn something, they need to be given ample time to understand the problem they're addressing, especially if they're going to be getting assistance in understanding the problem (through something like a mathematical system, or, in this case, a brief rundown of Riot's policies as reference.)

Additionally, there's the issue of rewinding; learning with a video format not only requires the ability to pause the video (as they may want to jot down or reference the information they just got before they move on to the next bit), but it also requires the ability to rewind, so as to go back over previous information if they misunderstood something or want to double-check. As it stands...

  • The video should have buttons you have to repeatedly press through out the video to make sure you're paying attention
  • If you fail to press the button, the video resets

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that rewind will also not be a feature. Which, as mentioned, really hurts the goal of teaching through video as a medium. The "attention button" idea could hypothetically work, more-or-less, but with some adjustments to the idea as a whole to accommodate. Just so that this isn't all harsh criticism, here's what I imagine would work with the "attention button" thing:

Rather than having it be a full length video on Riot's policies and so on, make it a length of sub-videos, small clips explaining the policies one at a time. They could be linked up based on the punishment applied (for example, harassment, hate speech, and giving up), and between each sub-video, there's a button prompt: A left-facing arrow to re-watch the last sub-video, and a right-facing arrow to watch the next one.

It could potentially also have a clip selection if there are multiple sub-videos, so that players could easily access previous sub-videos two or three clips back, provided they've watched them before. That way, it keeps the mandatory progression, and the relative security of attention, while also not sacrificing the usability that a video medium needs to be used to teach.

But, going on;

  • After you've successfully watch the video, there should be a quiz on the video make sure you were paying attention

This, to me, is a pretty big red-flag. Quizzing is good for one-off learning exercises and testing short-term information retention, but it doesn't exactly work well as a general tool for learning. Especially since quizzes can often be repeated to try to ensure you still know the answers after how long since the last time you did whatever the quiz was about, it can accidentally slip more into just rote memorization of the answers than understanding the principles or concepts the quiz was meant to hammer home.

Which is kind of made a little worse by this next part:

  • So you won't just be able find the answers online, there should be multiple versions of the same videos(16+ variations?)

In practice, making multiple variations of a given quiz can ensure that you have actually learned what you were meant to learn. As mentioned in the previous paragraph, repetitious or otherwise easy quizzes can lead to rote memorization, but diverse varieties of questions and answers can potentially drive the quiz-taker to focus more on the subject than the answer to the question. Again, I'm going to use math as a general example, but it can apply to science too.

One could spend a good few lessons learning a new mathematical formula or something of the like - long division being a generally decent example. Fairly difficult, not rocket science or illegible arcana, but still tough. Having two or three variations of quizzes with mostly the same quiz questions can result in the quizzes getting predictable, and the answers being tied to "what is question and what are answers" more than "what is the question, and how do I solve it". Having wider quiz variety alleviates that by having enough possible questions with enough possible answers that people focus more on solving the question than just answering it.

But, that only readily applies to formulaic problem solving like math or science or whatever - when it comes to League of Legends, that ability is kind of out the window because of what you're trying to teach: Riot's policies on Player Behavior. For one, multiple variations of quizzes (Which I know you didn't mention, but I'm still bringing it up due to relevance) does not effectively work, since Riot's policies are more-or-less fixed. And as for making multiple versions of the same videos (which you did bring up), that...Really wouldn't work.

If you're going to describe a policy, or anything of important note, you should only do it once, clearly and concisely. Having multiple different videos of the same subject matter can muddy or mess up the stuff you're trying to teach, unless the difference is so small as to be just replacing the person who's talking about it - say, swapping out Tantram for Phreak.

And, above all that; Riot's policies are fairly easily accessed online. You can read their Summoner's Code, Terms of Use, and browse the Player Behavior boards to gather and glean information on the Player Behavior policies. There's no reasonable way to actually inhibit people's ability to look for publicly available information online. And, that kind of caps off the issue with quizzes:

A quiz can't effectively teach something if the answers can simply be looked up and copy/pasted. And, in this case, that's the icing on the structurally unsound cake of having a Player Behavior quiz.


Personally, my only suggestion for Riot to improve their Player Behavior system and potentially reduce toxicity is really just to increase some clarity on the system, more than anything else. The first and foremost idea would be to have the IFS highlight or italicize lines of chat (in the case of chat-related toxicity) that contributed to the punishment - helping players to find out what stands out as bad behavior against the rest of their chat.

Though, even then, that comes with some risks or fallbacks - players would potentially mislead themselves and argue that the IFS is "just a stupid bot that punishes off of keywords", and, perhaps that's why Riot hasn't implemented such a thing that we know of? It's certainly worth humoring at any rate, but the toxicity problem is thankfully not wholly upon Riot's shoulders.

The other side of the toxicity problem - the one which, in general, actually makes toxicity a problem, is the toxic players themselves. By and large, the toxicity problem is caused by players who don't want to behave, don't want to adhere to rules (no matter how simple they may be), and don't want to consider reforming, much less consider they could be in the wrong in the first place.

Whether their adamance stems from simple juvenile misfit behavior or a genuine lack of understanding as to how their behavior could be bad, the largest problem we face with toxicity is the toxic player's refusal or lack of desire to actually change their behavior or address it as a problem. And that, sadly, is a problem that's not so easily tackled - especially when we already have so many incentives to obey the rules and reform.

Whatever the case, it's good to see an open discussion started up towards a good end. I hope you can pardon my criticism of your idea - hopefully it wasn't too harsh, but at least know that even if I - by incident or intent - tore some of the idea to shreds, I still appreciate the effort to find a solution to a problem.

Stevey27/13/2018, 1:46:06 AM2 votes

Anything other than instantly villifying you for all eternity because of their undying faith in their "automated system." Anything that'll make you aware of what you did wrong, but give you understand and ways to improve, because just hitting someone who is toxic with no remorse and expecting them to kiss your ass afterwards won't work with people. I got punished for ONE game, and one game onyl where i defended myself against a kled who initated flaming, i was just asking him quesitons and he resorted to saying he'll report me and shit. He was never punished for his toxic insults and belittlement and rallying the team to insult me and now my honor is locked out, i'm a 10 game chat ban and i now have a bad rep i have to "work off" despite getting a ton of honors in a short amount of time and to honor level 3 within two weeks.

I'm not "encouraged" to improve my behaviour after taht pisses me off, i'm just encouraged to not bother talking to my team and just doing my own thing from now on.

RxO Carmada7/14/2018, 6:14:23 AM1 votes

Alright so I'm going to do a thorough review of this post and before I get started I just want to clarify that your plea for us to give Riot suggestions falls on deaf ears because Riot has a track record of not listening to suggestions. Alright with that out of the way, let me begin my thorough analysis of your text wall.

We're always always harassing Riot for not doing good enough and not being smart enough for the community, but that doesn't help anything. When has non-constructive criticism ever helped anyone? Never. We should actively be discussing ways to deal with toxicity in our community, but this effort shouldn't be one-sided either. There should also be a couple or more rioters assigned to this issue and help discuss ways to finally deal with toxicity in our community.

Seeing how the league forums have so many posts complaining about toxicity everyday and how big this problem is, I'd say it's worth it.

Let's start somewhere, my idea is if you're found to be toxic, you should be forced to watch a video by Riot. The video should include:

• An explanation of what the player did and why it does not adhere to League's policies • Tips on how they could improve their behaviour • The video should not be able to be paused • The video should have buttons you have to repeatedly press through out the video to make sure you're paying attention

  • If you fail to press the button, the video resets • After you've successfully watch the video, there should be a quiz on the video make sure you were paying attention
  • So you won't just be able find the answers online, there should be multiple versions of the same videos(16+ variations?) • The video and quiz will only be provided after your original punishment(mute/suspension/ban) has been endured

Start the discussion

Start the discussion

Riot doesn't care about our feedback, so why should we?

whew, I hope I didn't forget some of the important details with my analysis there, hmu if you need a breakdown.

disregardable7/12/2018, 12:04:20 PM1 votes

grown adults have spent years of their lives researching how to effectively reduce toxicity.

f for riot lyte

Glîtchy7/12/2018, 5:49:34 AM1 votes

I'll go with this,

Once this bullshit meta's over