How to Solve Toxicity.

ItsASledgehammer··3 votes·1,028 views

Tl;DR: skip to bolded text saying "THE SOLUTION" if you don't want to read an essay filled with (constructive!) criticism of Riot's system.

For a long time, I've had a love/hate relationship with this game.

I've had my share of toxic moments, and have partook in some myself, unfortunately.

However, these moments or even moments when my team does very poorly or throws the game aren't my concern; as long as I do well and work on my mistakes, it doesn't matter. Right? If I work on my mistakes enough I'll get better eventually, right?

Right?

Wrong.

You see, unfortunately, the system that is currently in place encourages winning the games over actual self-improvement. Does it take a decent amount of skill to win? Of course. But sometimes you just get out-comp'd, or countered hard, or there will be times where you have a strong start but your opponents outscale you and you can't finish the game in time to prevent their inevitable roflstomp of your entire team.

Now, an example. Let's say I pick Bard and go support botlane. We completely spank them, we win lane, we break the tower before 10 min, etc. etc. Mid lane isn't doing so well, so we roam there and get them farmed up and fed by bullying back the opposing mage. Everything is going smoothly, and nobody on the enemy team has gotten any kills and most of them have less farm than most of us.

The enemy ADC is a vayne, the Jungle is Jax, and the mage in mid lane is Ahri. The enemy plays it safe afterwards, farming up and waiting for when we mess up. Eventually a few of us get caught out, and before we can respawn to protect some turrets, they break 3 of them (keep in mind death timers are long because it is late game).

Eventually, the worst thing possible happens; they manage to come back from a crippling early and mid game because of one mistake (not to mention their frighteningly good scaling) and we get completely obliterated.

The end screen pops up, and that all-too-familiar feeling of irritation and disgust bubbles under the surface as I look at each player's score and damage output. Then I get to my score, and the salt mines begin to open.

12-3-24.

S-.

I had practically carried my team and have an amazing score, as a bard support, no less! I was friendly all game, tried to be a team player, and gave it my all...and I get this game's equivalent to a welfare check in the form of IP...too small to do anything with, and full of bitter disappointment about where my life had gone.

No extra IP, no extra rewards, nothing to show for my efforts except an S and a - symbol on a score screen I was about to exit anyway.

Now, this may have been a bit melodramatic, but the point is clear...effort means literally nothing in this game. You could be bjergson going mid as yasuo, and your score means nothing. It's an empty title, with no backing behind it, and nothing to show for your efforts. It's like placing number 2 in a world art contest, and getting a bag of toenail clippings as a reward, or talking about how excited you are to be number 2 in the entire world to your friend, and having that friend say "yeah, but you're not number 1."

And Riot wonders how to fix toxicity.

Listen up...I have an idea. Hear me out...it may sound radical, but it might just work and reduce toxicity by a LOT.

First off, I have to compliment Riot and give credit where credit is due. It wouldn't be fair if I ripped into their system without a plus side, would it?

Their rating system for how well you do in game is top-notch. It helps people really want to improve and do well in the game, and I've had significantly less players feed due to this. I have also improved my gameplay due to this system, so great job there.

Now, for the bad stuff.

You took a great first step, but about fifty steps backwards due to your system. Why is your system terrible? Here is why:

  1. You get nothing for doing well in game, only for winning. If you win, great! You get first win of the day bonus, you get increased mmr so you won't be matched with less-than-optimal teammates, and lots of IP. Oh, yeah, and you also got a c+ as garen top lane. Good job on that too, I guess. But if you lose, shame on you...you played vayne adc and have the most kills, most damage, least deaths, and most assists out of every single other person on your team, got commended even by the opponents, and got an s+, but you DIDN'T WIN. For shame. What a bronzie. Oh well, I guess you deserve SOMETHING...here, lemme see what spare IP I have in my pocket. Here we go...a whole 70 IP! Just like all the other people who lost! Don't spend it all in one place, now, you hear?

This is absolutely nonsensical to the highest degree. People who do incredibly and still lose get less than someone who does average and wins. This makes zero sense.

"But it makes you want to win more!"

Yes, and it devastates you if you lose, making you feel like you mean nothing to your team and that your efforts were entirely wasted. Top-notch.

  1. You still lose points in ranked even if you carry or do spectacularly well considering the circumstances. Won the game, great! Here's a smidgen of LP to let you climb up half a rung in the ranked ladder. You're making progress! You lost? Well, your S+ vayne simply wasn't enough to carry your team. You belong in a lower ELO because of that. Oh well, but I guess you tried really hard. Here's a slightly reduced LP loss for your efforts. Nice try, I guess.

This ALSO makes no sense. I get trying to make people want to win more and thus try harder in game, but once again, losing is still too harsh, especially if you know you tried your best and did a rather phenomenal job, too.

  1. The above two reasons contributes FAR more to toxicity than "I didn't get my role" or "stupid bronzies". Yes, poor cooperation from your teammates DOES contribute a lot to being angry, but most of the time, THAT reason for being angry goes away after about 10 minutes or so. So how do people stay angry even after taking a long, much-needed break? Simple. After getting over that anger, once you see that the game is tilting in the opponent's favor even when you're doing well, you begin to feel that uselessness, that helplessness that so often is associated with being "salty" or "butthurt". This feeling is basically your brain saying "oh crap, we're losing, and I'm trying my best and it's not doing anything, I feel so useless right now, my contribution to the team means nothing, and I'm worthless". What ends up happening, is the player begins to try and reassure themselves it's not their fault, it's the circumstances, but goes the complete extreme with it. They start lashing out at teammates for screwing up positioning, telling them off for "throwing", and even berating enemy players for choosing "OP" and "brainless" champions.

This feeling of hopelessness continues to haunt the player and makes them nervous every single time they load up the game no matter what mode they play. They start thinking that the entire responsibility of losing those games was all their fault, and they begin to get apathetic. They feel like no matter what they do it won't matter, because trying is pointless, and you don't get any points for effort, only for winning.

Sounds pretty awful, doesn't it?

Those of you at Riot games, I ask you to keep reading despite how long this post is...I DO have a solution, and although it might sound radical, I think it would change the landscape for the better despite any backlash you get from your more, well, how to say this nicely... "elite" class of players. It will really eliminate a lot of toxicity from the game, make the game actually fun to play, and reduce ladder anxiety by a lot.

Yes, I'm just an average player...not even Gold, I'm barely hovering in Silver 5, but please hear me out, and please take the following into consideration. Please listen to your players for once, and stop doing things like getting rid of modes and getting rid of queues for just a few more minutes to read the following words.

Thank you in advance.

THE SOLUTION:

Start giving out either more IP for those with higher scores or give them some RP despite them having won or lost the game.

It's crazy, I know, but if you make your IP handouts and RP handouts based on score (something that already is very much based on teamwork and skill), then, rather than make players angry at losing, you'll be encouraging them to strive not for winning, but strive for getting better at the game.

For instance, if a player gets a C- but wins, give that player far less points than someone who gets an S+ and loses.

Perhaps make it a thresh-hold thing...people who earn a B+ or an A- or higher get a bit of RP or a bunch more IP than everyone else.

Keep the base amount of IP low, and make it the same for losers and winners.

In ranked, make it so that those who get a B+ or higher DON'T LOSE ANY LP. Think about it...yeah, it's a crazy thought, but if a player consistently gets a high score in ranked but gets demoted a lot, it's not very fair, is it? If they truly belong in a higher level, they will continue to get that high score, and thus will rise. Perhaps they'll rise very quickly, but it will be earned. This makes more sense than basing LP loss or gain on win/loss ratio.

Those who get lower than a B+ will lose LP at the normal rate, based on the normal statistics. The reason why this makes sense is because if they got a low or average score at that level, they obviously don't belong at that level or weren't playing their best, so they don't deserve to play at that level or any higher.

Extreme? Maybe, but is it any more extreme than removing long-standing game modes because you never took care of it properly or promoted it? Or getting rid of a queue despite player protests because you know what the playerbase wants more than the actual playerbase itself? I'm not trying to be a jerk here, or state what was right or wrong but despite anyone's opinions, those were some pretty extreme decisions on your part.

So, in conclusion, making players strive to DO BETTER is far better than making them want to WIN NO MATTER THE COST. If players do better and have a more positive outlook due to a well-designed reward system, they won't care very much about winning or losing anymore, and will simply want to be a better player in general. This, of course, will net a lot of player more wins, and most likely increase your playerbase as far more enjoyment will be had with this changes in place.

Am I telling you how to do your job? No, of course not. This is a mere suggestion for how to improve your game, from my point of view. You've already proven that this is ultimately YOUR game, not ours, so it is up to you whether you implement these changes or not. I don't know a lot about psychology, nor do I even pretend to know how to run a massive game such as this, but I DO know how the players feel, how I feel, and why seemingly good players with good track records suddenly turn massively toxic at the drop of a hat.

That being said, please, like I mentioned, take my points into consideration, at least. A reply is not necessary, but would be absolutely fantastic! I'd love to explain more about why I think this would work, and even how I came across it.

If you want to talk to me privately and not discuss this on the boards, my in-game-name is "ItsASledgehammer", just like my posting name on this site.

If any other players want to discuss this with me here, I'd love to, but try and keep it somewhat positive, or at least civil when discussing these points. I really don't want a lot of toxic comments here saying things like "this is stupid and so are you" or "lol nice try" or "gtfo u filthy silver casul", just civil discussion, please.

Thank you again for reading this novel of a post, and I hope to see you on the rift!

17 Comments

Handy Sandy 2 votes

You get a message from riot

"We deleted your post because it's in the wrong category. Put this in Concepts and Creations." lmao

but srsly this is a good idea. I get kinda mad when I see the whole enemy team going 1/20/9 but they're being carried by someone else with like 19/0/4 and they still receive the same amount of IP even though they barely did anything besides feed

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

{quoted}

You get a message from riot

"We deleted your post because it's in the wrong category. Put this in Concepts and Creations." lmao

but srsly this is a good idea. I get kinda mad when I see the whole enemy team going 1/20/9 but they're being carried by someone else with like 19/0/4 and they still receive the same amount of IP even though they barely did anything besides feed

I totally agree...also, is this post really in the wrong spot? It's so difficult to organize this one, because it concerns mainly how to handle player behavior, but also is an idea...

sheldonbunny2 votes

You took way too long to get to your point. You might want to edit it down a bit. A fair bit of it is unnecessary to getting your point across and you're going to lose most readers before they even get to your idea.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

{quoted}

You took way too long to get to your point. You might want to edit it down a bit. A fair bit of it is unnecessary to getting your point across and you're going to lose most readers before they even get to your idea.

I just might do that. ill probably remove the whole story i threw in...i kind of added it in more for flavor, i guess

sheldonbunny2 votes

{quoted}

I just might do that. ill probably remove the whole story i threw in...i kind of added it in more for flavor, i guess

Well if you'd prefer to keep it, perhaps add a TL:DR at the top or bottom of the post with just the main points you were trying to get across.

I myself write mini novels so I completely understand. I just know that others don't always enjoy reading through it.

ItsASledgehammer2 votes

{quoted}

Well if you'd prefer to keep it, perhaps add a TL:DR at the top or bottom of the post with just the main points you were trying to get across.

I myself write mini novels so I completely understand. I just know that others don't always enjoy reading through it.

There we go...TL;DR added...I dislike the editing option here because it shrinks the full post down to an unscrollable tiny strip of text that I have to navigate by pressing arrow keys for minutes at a time, so I figured this would be the easiest. thanks for the feedback!

VoidStaresBack2 votes

There would probably be some tweaking needed as far as the Ranked LP gains and losses went in order to even things out, probably more of a curve than this hard cutoff point your suggested, but good suggestions.

Also, +1 for being civil about this whole thing, that's a rare sight on the boards.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

{quoted}

There would probably be some tweaking needed as far as the Ranked LP gains and losses went in order to even things out, probably more of a curve than this hard cutoff point your suggested, but good suggestions.

Also, +1 for being civil about this whole thing, that's a rare sight on the boards.

I agree, there, perhaps make it a bit more gradual...you get the base amount at any C ranking, twice the amount of IP for any B ranking, and triple the amount for getting any A ranking. Perhaps offer a small amount of riot points for getting S rankings.

As far as ranked play goes, maybe make it so B ranking loses half as many points, A doesn't lose any but their MMR goes down, and S you don't lose any and your MMR drop is very reduced.

The main problem here is that the above might be a bit harder to implement, which is why I initially had the idea of making a hard cutoff point.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

Bump. Hoping for some more comments on this, perhaps even a red to give their take on it.

scazzman1 votes

i agree that individual performance feels highly undervalued, and games are often decided how charismatic someone is. not how good they are. you cant win unless everyone follows instructions

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

{quoted}

i agree that individual performance feels highly undervalued, and games are often decided how charismatic someone is. not how good they are. you cant win unless everyone follows instructions

Agreed. I often try to fill that role, but normally only a couple people actually try and take the advice, which makes it really hard to pull through. I think that with the addition of dynamic queue and the absence of solo queue, people are ranked almost entirely on how well they function as a unit, which makes no sense if you're with a bunch of randoms.

Cavemantero1 votes

I actually think that's a good solution overall. I think a CLUB ranked setup is a better solution for ranked though.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

{quoted}

I actually think that's a good solution overall. I think a CLUB ranked setup is a better solution for ranked though.

I apologize if I don't quite understand what you mean...what do you mean by a club ranked setup?

ExFable1 votes

Just giving my two cents on the idea, take it for what it's worth from an admittedly bad player despite 4 seasons now of trying.

This game, and quite frankly all games, are about winning and losing. Not trying hard, and not appearances. There is no objective way to measure the contribution to "success" in a game with this many variables. KDA, cs, gold earned, getting caught out, successful ganks, early leads, late "throws" are all part of one singular objecting, and that is winning. Rewarding people for "carrying" when they don't win is borderline nonsense. What exactly did you "carry?" Arguably, as the most "fed" person on your team, especially if there is an early snowball situation, you are the most to blame if your team doesn't win.

Every game of League of Legends with players of arguably similar skill being queued together (don't hate on this DQ haters) will be determined eventually by strategy, teamwork and scaling of the champions selected. If you "carry" early with a snowball champion and don't win the game before the other team out scales your early game champion, that is squarely on your shoulders. To reward "good" performance in a loss completely devalues the ranked ladder far more than any "boosting" issues that may arise from Dynamic Que. There is a reason that the best players in the world are consistently at the top of the solo que ranked ladder, and a reason why they typically perform well personally, even in team losses. Winning the game is the end goal, and any reward for something other than winning is missing the point of competition.

For some examples of "poor scoring" play that leads to victories:

Proxy SInged Split pushing Tryndemere (the one who starts 1/7/0 but still manages to break the base at 15 minutes in low elo) Stalling out for your Jax, Nasus, Tristana, Kog, etc. to eventually out scale

I would rather have the above mentioned split pushing Trynd on my team, over the 25/4/10 LeBlanc or Riven that never uses that advantage prior to the whole team getting out scaled.

TL; DR

Winning is all that matters in a ranking system. Mess with IP or other "currency" but any reward of LP or decrease in loss of LP that takes individual performance into account makes a mockery of the ranking system.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

{quoted}

Just giving my two cents on the idea, take it for what it's worth from an admittedly bad player despite 4 seasons now of trying.

This game, and quite frankly all games, are about winning and losing. Not trying hard, and not appearances. There is no objective way to measure the contribution to "success" in a game with this many variables. KDA, cs, gold earned, getting caught out, successful ganks, early leads, late "throws" are all part of one singular objecting, and that is winning. Rewarding people for "carrying" when they don't win is borderline nonsense. What exactly did you "carry?" Arguably, as the most "fed" person on your team, especially if there is an early snowball situation, you are the most to blame if your team doesn't win.

Every game of League of Legends with players of arguably similar skill being queued together (don't hate on this DQ haters) will be determined eventually by strategy, teamwork and scaling of the champions selected. If you "carry" early with a snowball champion and don't win the game before the other team out scales your early game champion, that is squarely on your shoulders. To reward "good" performance in a loss completely devalues the ranked ladder far more than any "boosting" issues that may arise from Dynamic Que. There is a reason that the best players in the world are consistently at the top of the solo que ranked ladder, and a reason why they typically perform well personally, even in team losses. Winning the game is the end goal, and any reward for something other than winning is missing the point of competition.

For some examples of "poor scoring" play that leads to victories:

Proxy SInged Split pushing Tryndemere (the one who starts 1/7/0 but still manages to break the base at 15 minutes in low elo) Stalling out for your Jax, Nasus, Tristana, Kog, etc. to eventually out scale

I would rather have the above mentioned split pushing Trynd on my team, over the 25/4/10 LeBlanc or Riven that never uses that advantage prior to the whole team getting out scaled.

TL; DR

Winning is all that matters in a ranking system. Mess with IP or other "currency" but any reward of LP or decrease in loss of LP that takes individual performance into account makes a mockery of the ranking system.

I see where you're coming from, but you are approaching this topic as if the rating system (you know, where you get A's and S's and whatnot) is very much based on only your kills and assists, and not anything like CS, turret kills, and wards placed. Many players have noticed that they get OK scores, but have done a lot of healing or have broken a lot of turrets, and they still get S's. What this means is that your score is a much more accurate rating of your skill and cooperation in-game than your MMR, which, for some strange reason, is the biggest factor in deciding where you are placed in the ranking system.

The main problem is that Riot believes that your win/loss ratio is the only true way to match you against relatively equal opponents, even though you could have had very very bad teammates for several games in a row (for instance, you play at like 3:30 AM or something and have mostly trolls and bots on your team).

My point was mostly the fact that the way the current points and ranking system works is it only rewards those who win, even if they're bad players. this means that there are many noobs even up to diamond or plat that don't seem to play on anyone else's level, and some very skilled players end up getting stuck in bronze or silver much longer than necessary.

The result is a bunch of people who get fed up with the system and get fed up with feeling like their hard work and skill went to waste because someone decided to go Garen jungle in ranked, or go Lee Sin ADC with their pal Jarvan IV.

As far as rewarding performance in a loss...I don't quite get how this is a bad thing. The player knows they did well, and they get rewarded for doing well in their team. If they couldn't carry their team it means one of two things...1. they don't know what to do with a lead and they lose, or 2. their team doesn't know how to work with someone who's fed and either feed consistently or never go in at the right times.

If the person has no idea what to do with their lead, they probably are toxic or just happened to get lucky, which will mean, either way, their MMR rise will be very, very temporary; MMR lowers if you've been toxic in enough games, and MMR lowers (with enough games) if you're actually kind of a noob and just got super lucky.

If anything, I think matchmaking and the ranking system is much more broken the way it is...toxic jerks climb the ladder playing things like Caitlin ADC so that they don't really have to get too involved or skill-intensive, whereas other people do very well consistently and constantly lose who aren't toxic and play more than one or two champions or roles.

Maybe it's just me, but I think if Riot wants a ranking system that everyone will enjoy and one that doesn't foster so much self-loathing and toxicity among players, a ranking system based mostly on winning but swayed quite a bit by skill would make the most sense.

In addition to my above statements, if you took a full look at the original post, I actually mentioned that winning will still somewhat define whether you climb or not. It's just that if you achieve a really, really high score/grade, you will either lose a drastically reduced amount of LP or, perhaps if you get an S- or higher, you'll lose zero LP. You'll still lose MMR, but you won't lose LP. You won't gain any LP either...you will simply remain where you are, but with lowered MMR.

I think this embraces both sides of League...the uber-competitive crowd, and the kinda competitive crowd. Uber-competitive players will enjoy the fact that you still have to win the game to advance, but the kinda competitive crowd will enjoy the fact that although it ultimately rewards the winners far more, it gives you a bit of breathing room, as well.

Normal games, of course, don't matter as much as ranked, which is why I think it is fair to reward bonus IP based almost entirely on your score. winners will receive a set amount of IP, losers will receive a bit less, and both will have an opportunity to get a good amount of bonus IP or, if higher than an S-, maybe some RP, too.

So you see, what my main intent here is, is to still encourage competition, but give some players some breathing room and try to reduce toxicity, while also encouraging higher skill and cooperation rather than just flat out winning at any cost. I mean, yes, maybe it's beneficial overall to take blue if you're getting a bit ahead in lane, but it's a dick move to your jungler, if you catch my drift.

Those are MY two cents on the topic. I understand you're all for "keeping order" and "keeping things balanced" or "making sure the ranking system isn't entirely screwed", but the idea I originally had I ended up changing a bit due to some suggestions, yours included, so I decided maybe a compromise between the two sides of the discussion would be in order.

Hopefully this cleared some things up for you.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

Another bump...trying to keep this thread alive and get some more action going on it.

ItsASledgehammer1 votes

bump

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