Let's Solve Together: Int-Feeding Detection & Punishment

HalcyonDweller··11 votes·1,542 views

I think it is pretty safe to say that a lot of people are unhappy with Riot's punishment system and how it handles (or doesn't handle) intentional feeding and other gameplay trolling.

So lets try something new - crowd-sourcing. I'm going to outline the problem as best as I can, and lets talk about solutions that could be used to deal with it. Then lets discuss the problems with those solutions, and lets find ways to solve those. Somewhere along the line I bet we will crystallize the ideas into something more feasible that Riot could hopefully make use of when developing solutions to the ongoing problems with gameplay trolling.

The main problem:

Players intentionally ruining games for others.

Some of the problems with addressing that problem:

Players sometimes perform poorly simply on accident, and any system that is too trigger-happy with punishments could catch these innocent players along with the people who intentionally do it.

Players sometimes soft-int, by doing things to throw matches that are even harder to detect, but that are still obvious to their teammates that they are trolling.

Players who throw matches or die a lot can still do these things on accident, and because we can't know their intent, it is difficult to gauge whether or not they deserve a harsh punishment or not.

Solution 1 - More manual reviews (such as bringing back the tribunal)

Benefits:

  • Fairness (people will have more trust in a system that has human reviewers)
  • Accuracy - you could receive many peoples' input on cases to get a live-read on how the community actually feels about certain types of behavior
  • Context - cases where the context might warrant leniency could result in that due leniency being granted

Problem: Scope and scale of reviewing cases manually can't keep up with volume of reports.

  • Solution: streamline manual review process - needs further discussion as to how, problems & solutions
  • Solution: get more participation by developing a review feature that is accessible in-client rather than on a website
  • Solution: limit manual reviews to a smaller number of cases, and or double up by using them to help feed a genetic AI to learn how to judge similar cases

Problem: Cost

  • Solution: get more participation by developing a review feature that is accessible in-client rather than on a website
  • Solution: Set up a go-fund-me, I'm not kidding. I bet lots of players would be willing to either donate directly or participate in a sale who's funds would be set aside specifically for funding such a project

Problem: Participants intentionally judging incorrectly (WIP) This problem is currently being discussed in the comments

  • Solution: Keep track of participants' accuracy by mixing in resolved cases along with their real ones to see if they vote accurately on the resolved cases.
  • Limit the importance of their accuracy by only allowing them to review small snippets from any individual case. Basically nobody gets to actually give any "guilty" or "innocent" verdicts, they can only score individual things on like, a scale from 1 to 5.

Solution 2 - Lighter punishments and/or warnings and/or interventions applied more liberally

Benefits:

  • Less objectionable - if innocent players are caught by it, as they aren't necessarily being punished, but rather they are being helped when they are having a bad day
  • Training - with interventions, players could be more easily shown how to get what they want from their fellow players (because lets face it, most ragers and flamers are just upset that someone is not listening to them). If they are taught how to better express themselves without upsetting their teammate, they will be able to make teammates listen without behaving punish-ably.

Problem: Not all players want to be coached on how to work with others

  • Solution: make coaching opt-out, but warn them that causing fights with other players will get them banned faster if they fail to shape-up

Problem: Malicious users will remain able to play games for longer, or they could make use of extra warnings to better reverse-engineer the detection system and find ways around it.

  • Solution: If they have to dilute their behavior too much then they won't be able to actually make their teammates think that they are trolling, defeating the purpose of trolling in the first place.
  • Solution: repeat offenders or unusual cases should be kicked over to a manual review to ensure that they get properly investigated.

Solution 3 - Increase rewards for winning games somehow

Problem: increase toxicity on losing teams

  • Solution: Players who would soft-int to throw games will be more likely to try instead because they will want the rewards of winning
  • Solution: Players who tend to be toxic in easily detected ways will simply get caught by the IFS anyway

Work in Progress (WIP)

This post is a work in progress, more solutions and lists and discussions will be added and summarized as more discussions are held in the comments. Feel free to jump into the discussion and share your thoughts about various problems or their solutions, and if you can think of problems that we haven't yet please do speak up, we want to catch everything that could go wrong so we can scrutinize it thoroughly and have the best working solutions that we can think of.

54 Comments

Jo0o3 votes

I'm extremely wary of giving players the power to determine intentional feeding. You needn't look further than these forums for examples of people who eagerly accuse bad players of intentional feeding, or people that believe stuff like "Dying ten times in a game is impossible without intentional feeding and should be punished". It's a circle-jerk of pissed-off players who can't cope with having teammates perform badly.

Imagine how the community might vote on this hypothetical situation: Player A is Bronze, Player B is Silver, they face each other in the top lane. Player B earns a quick 3-4 kills, and begins pushing A's wave under turret. Player A sees that B has no summs and is at ~60% health after their most recent fight, and believes incorrectly that he can seize an advantage and shut B down. Player A teleports to a ward or minion and makes a beeline to player B. Player B calmly spanks A's ass with minimal effort due to already having an item advantage. Player B now has 4-5 kills, and probably first turret, in under 10 minutes. Now, Player A very deliberately ran into a shitty situation with, from a spectator's viewpoint, no chance of success. Do we trust the community to understand that this was a miscalculation, and not intentional feeding? Shit, even some of the people reading me write this will probably say that A deserves to be punished for this.

I'm sorry to be unhelpful, but I think the ball is entirely in Riot's court to catch feeders. I don't trust the community to do so.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I'm extremely wary of giving players the power to determine intentional feeding. You needn't look further than these forums for examples of people who eagerly accuse bad players of intentional feeding, or people that believe stuff like "Dying ten times in a game is impossible without intentional feeding and should be punished". It's a circle-jerk of pissed-off players who can't cope with having teammates perform badly.

Imagine how the community might vote on this hypothetical situation: Player A is Bronze, Player B is Silver, they face each other in the top lane. Player B earns a quick 3-4 kills, and begins pushing A's wave under turret. Player A sees that B has no summs and is at ~60% health after their most recent fight, and believes incorrectly that he can seize an advantage and shut B down. Player A teleports to a ward or minion and makes a beeline to player B. Player B calmly spanks A's ass with minimal effort due to already having an item advantage. Player B now has 4-5 kills, and probably first turret, in under 10 minutes. Now, Player A very deliberately ran into a shitty situation with, from a spectator's viewpoint, no chance of success. Do we trust the community to understand that this was a miscalculation, and not intentional feeding? Shit, even some of the people reading me write this will probably say that A deserves to be punished for this.

I'm sorry to be unhelpful, but I think the ball is entirely in Riot's court to catch feeders. I don't trust the community to do so.

I understand and agree that players shouldn't simply be trusted to act properly. One potential solution to this could be that players could have previously concluded cases interspersed with their actual cases to gauge their accuracy... And said players could also have their accuracy measured on unresolved cases by comparing their judgment on an ongoing case to other more accurate people who are judging the same case.

Frothy White Goo2 votes

the tribunal was the start of this game turning to shit

people would play a game

get mad

come to the tribunal and insta punish everyone

riot fake reviewed them and millions of people were unfairly banned

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I'm not suggesting we just take that user input without a grain of salt. Players could have solved/thrown-out cases interspersed with the actual cases they would review, allowing Riot to see if the persons are falsely punishing people out of spite or even acquitting guilty people for the lul's.

Pika Fox2 votes

Both of these are bad. The tribunal didnt work, and making punishments lighter just to make it so you can automate the system hits people who shouldnt be hit. Its better to not punish someone who should be punished than to punish someone who shouldnt. Especially since theres money involved in this as well.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Alright, then what would you do differently?

Pika Fox1 votes

Either leave it as-is or let riot develop whatever theyre working on for it. The system actually works right now, people just think it doesnt.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Of course we think it doesn't work. What about the players who go for 10 or more games undetected while they play Tahm Kench or Anivia and do things to get their allies killed repeatedly? OR people building 6 tears, 6 regen orbs, etc?

Pika Fox1 votes

If theyre doing it repeatedly and get reported repeatedly, they get banned. So, what ABOUT them? Theyre banned.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

They often get to keep playing and ruining matches for a long time before they do get banned. Simply getting around to it eventually is not enough. Response time is disappointing and unacceptable.

Pika Fox1 votes

You have nothing to back up your claim that they can keep going for a long time. If you get reported in x number of games within y number of games, your games get reviewed. Thats how it works, basically. If theyre such a problem as you claim they are, guess what? Theyre already dealt with.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

There was that case a while back where a guy played Yi all the time and would stomp, then to keep their MMR low they would play Tahm Kench and troll / feed to lose games. They had 100% WR on Yi and 0% WR on Tahm kench.

He wasn't dealt with until the story became big enough that it caught Riot's attention. I don't know for certain, but I can bet that his teammate reported him after those Tahm Kench games.

I'm usually with you on this sort of thing, Riot's system handles stuff, or if it doesn't then there are usually reasons for it. But there's a reason that public sentiment about feeder-detection is so disparaging. It doesn't seem like it works.

Edit: Also just to be clear, I'm not the one who downvoted you earlier.

Pika Fox1 votes

Thats one case of an extreme. There are surely ways to game the system, even if riot doesnt tell you how it works. Its definitely not perfect and can be improved. But for the most part, it does work and it works well.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

It shows that there are flaws. And that combined with general sentiment, people are bound to be disappointed.

As I said above, I'm usually with you on this sort of thing. But I also understand why a lot of people feel the way that they do, I'm making this post to try to engage them and Rioters, as well as people like you and I.

Pika Fox1 votes

Riots likely always making improvements. Issue is its not something that can be fixed easily or publicly announced. You also cant just hire more people to solve the problem (youtube made this mistake recently)

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'm simply trying to start a discussion about many possible solutions, not insist that Riot do one thing or another.

Kaioko1 votes

Regarding your solution 1 -- we tried different things back when I used to be very involved with tribunal even giving rewards to players. Overall nothing worked, and even more concerning -- players had a habit of voting guilty even when the person was actually innocent.

For solution 2 -- You'd have way too many people getting caught by it. What exactly are you proposing setting the death/cs/experience obtained to to dishing out the penalty? Either way it wouldn't be efficient. Also I don't even think I fully understand what you're proposing here -- basically a system that forces you to be coached if you do poorly in a certain match or series of matches?

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

Regarding your solution 1 -- we tried different things back when I used to be very involved with tribunal even giving rewards to players. Overall nothing worked, and even more concerning -- players had a habit of voting guilty even when the person was actually innocent.

I'm super sorry, that sounds terrible and I find myself feeling extremely disappointed in those people for doing that.

Idea 1: This is a bit of a strange idea - I know - but do you think it might work to game-ify getting it right? Like take what we've learned from mobile games and apply it to a system that causes endorphins to be generated only when good judgements are made?

Players could have previously concluded cases interspersed with their actual cases to gauge their accuracy... And said players could also have their accuracy measured on unresolved cases by comparing their judgment on an ongoing case to other more accurate people who are judging the same case.

For every correct judgement they could get a positive sound like a happy "boop" and if they get it wrong they could receive an unhappy "boop" or even a timeout from reviews or even a queue penalty?

Idea 2: Getting even weirder... What about making a system that represented reported behavior in some sort of actual game? Represent things happening with shapes or colors and get the user to "win" the game by... I dunno, moving things to the correct places...? I have no idea how such a thing would have to be codeified to somehow accurately translate the behavior to colors and shapes instead of actual review-able behavior, but it's something very different from anything tried before (at least I think it is).

For solution 2 -- You'd have way too many people getting caught by it. What exactly are you proposing setting the death/cs/experience obtained to to dishing out the penalty? Either way it wouldn't be efficient. Also I don't even think I fully understand what you're proposing here -- basically a system that forces you to be coached if you do poorly in a certain match or series of matches?

I guess what I'm aiming for is something that implements time-outs or coaching when players suddenly perform much worse than they usually do. This would be pretty ambitious and difficult to implement but I bet it would be accurate and far-reaching if the AI was used / set up correctly.

This might require a more complex scoring system than MMR, as it would have to compare players' past 'scores' to their current scores in the game they just played. If a player fed more than their past selves or more than other players who were similarly behind, then maybe they need a popup reminding them to take a break or asking them if they are tilted, it could be as soft as popups and reminders, or as heavy as a 24-hour ban (that doesn't impact actual punishment tiers).

Thoughts?

AeroWaffle1 votes

Idea 1: This is a bit of a strange idea - I know - but do you think it might work to game-ify getting it right? Like take what we've learned from mobile games and apply it to a system that causes endorphins to be generated only when good judgements are made? Players could have previously concluded cases interspersed with their actual cases to gauge their accuracy... And said players could also have their accuracy measured on unresolved cases by comparing their judgment on an ongoing case to other more accurate people who are judging the same case. For every correct judgement they could get a positive sound like a happy "boop" and if they get it wrong they could receive an unhappy "boop" or even a timeout from reviews or even a queue penalty?

They already gamified it. You only got the rewards when your vote was "correct".

The issue is, how do you determine if they are voting correctly when it's the votes that determine if it's a punishment or not?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I believe it might work if we use this:

"Players could have previously concluded cases interspersed with their actual cases to gauge their accuracy... And said players could also have their accuracy measured on unresolved cases by comparing their judgment on an ongoing case to other more accurate people who are judging the same case."

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}# Solution 1 - More manual reviews [such as bringing back the tribunal]

I can't think of a way to do this at all efficiently.

Let's assume that we can A: player outsource it, B: achieve a time of just 2 minutes for a reasonable review, and C: require the opinion of just 5 players to reach an accurate consensus.

League has about 27 million players each day, as of our last update. If each player plays just one game, than's 2.7 million games. If just 5% have someone accuse someone of feeding, that's still 135000 games, or, at 2 minutes each for 5 players reviewing, 22,500 man-hours of review time needed. That's a LOT, and many of those numbers are low.

Disregarding the other issues, the only way this is at ALL feasible is if you have a system scanning first that can eliminate, say, 90% of those cases, which puts us in the same boat we are now where detection is difficult.

Solution 2 - Lighter punishments and/or warnings and/or interventions applied more liberally

Less objectionable - if innocent players are caught by it, as they aren't necessarily being punished, but rather they are being helped when they are having a bad day

Devil's advocate here -- having the system smack me after a bad game feels really bad, and very much like the game telling me not to play.

Problem: Malicious users will remain able to play games for longer, or they could make use of extra warnings to better reverse-engineer the detection system and find ways around it.

This is also an issue -- this solution doesn't actually really do much to address the situation, as it can punish innocent players AND is worse at removing the actual problem players.


I know this is where one would expect me to make a proposal, but I legitimately don't have one. I think that, without proper access to Riot's data, we're going to be hard-pressed to come up with a feasible, scale-able, affordable, and effective improvement to the current detection and resolution methods. Building a system that can properly identifying "trying" is a super difficult thing, and, while you might be able to improve on detection of some of the more obvious cases, doing so prematurely just causes the trolls to adopt other, more subtle ways of doing the same thing, making your job ultimately more difficult.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=pFNZEqb4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-13T22:30:23.244+0000)

I can't think of a way to do this at all efficiently.

Let's assume that we can A: player outsource it, B: achieve a time of just 2 minutes for a reasonable review, and C: require the opinion of just 5 players to reach an accurate consensus.

League has about 27 million players each day, as of our last update. If each player plays just one game, than's 2.7 million games. If just 5% have someone accuse someone of feeding, that's still 135000 games, or, at 2 minutes each for 5 players reviewing, 22,500 man-hours of review time needed. That's a LOT, and many of those numbers are low.

Disregarding the other issues, the only way this is at ALL feasible is if you have a system scanning first that can eliminate, say, 90% of those cases, which puts us in the same boat we are now where detection is difficult.

Well that's one of the points of the suggestion. The old tribunal handled chat cases in addition to everything else. What if we had something that handled everything it could detect and then simply passed the other stuff on to the new tribunal to review. Then only the hard to detect stuff would slip through and be in the hands of a tribunal.

Also I'm totally gonna be extreme here, but I think Riot should start doing something about false reports - Perhaps punishing people for submitting false reports, or if not punishing, at least limiting the ammunition or their general ability to push reports into the system once they have been found to be a user who submits frivolous reports.


Devil's advocate here -- having the system smack me after a bad game feels really bad, and very much like the game telling me not to play.

That's entirely fair, but I would also like to ask, "If a player is having a bad time, is it such a bad idea for them to take a break?" Maybe it doesn't have to smack players, but gentle reminders or harsher punishments if they act out might be warranted. Imagine if we give gentle reminders if a player has a bad game, while we give them a temporary ban (1 to 24 hours) if they exhibit obvious and objectionable behavior.

This temporary ban could be a step before or even in-between steps of the existing punishment system, allowing players who slip up and just have a really bad day to be removed from the game long enough for them to hopefully no longer be in that terrible state of mind.

This is also an issue -- this solution doesn't actually really do much to address the situation, as it can punish innocent players AND is worse at removing the actual problem players.

Fair assessment, and I don't have any counterclaims to make to that.


I know this is where one would expect me to make a proposal, but I legitimately don't have one. I think that, without proper access to Riot's data, we're going to be hard-pressed to come up with a feasible, scale-able, affordable, and effective improvement to the current detection and resolution methods. Building a system that can properly identifying "trying" is a super difficult thing, and, while you might be able to improve on detection of some of the more obvious cases, doing so prematurely just causes the trolls to adopt other, more subtle ways of doing the same thing, making your job ultimately more difficult.

I saw a video the other day where someone said the reason that league is so toxic is the fact that you are punished for trying to get out of a toxic situation. Maybe things would be better if players could either kick toxic players mid-game or leave the game themselves without fear of being punished just for avoiding the awfulness. Perhaps this could work if we had a system where players could do pick-up games, like getting pulled into a match in the middle of the game, to help prevent losses due to teams being 4v5.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}Well that's one of the points of the suggestion. The old tribunal handled chat cases in addition to everything else. What if we had something that handled everything it could detect and then simply passed the other stuff on to the new tribunal to review. Then only the hard to detect stuff would slip through and be in the hands of a tribunal.

That likely still gets us to unrealistic numbers, as I undershot a lot of the statistics I threw up there. I really think any manual review process is just untenable on League's scale.

Also I'm totally gonna be extreme here, but I think Riot should start doing something about false reports - Perhaps punishing people for submitting false reports, or if not punishing, at least limiting the ammunition or their general ability to push reports into the system once they have been found to be a user who submits frivolous reports.

This really isn't necessary though, as false reports don't count against you. Further, punishing "false" reports means that the system fails to learn from community input, as currently if it sees things reported that it didn't have marked it can notice a growing trend, but under a system like this it would have to mark those as false.

That's entirely fair, but I would also like to ask,"If a player is having a bad time, is it such a bad idea for them to take a break?"

I think yes. I don't want to be told that I've played badly enough I should take a break. I just got out of that game, and likely know I wasn't doing well. The game doesn't need to rub that into my face, let along suggest, quietly, that one has to perform well -- which is basically what that suggestion boils down to.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=pFNZEqb4,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-14T01:11:21.629+0000)

That likely still gets us to unrealistic numbers, as I undershot a lot of the statistics I threw up there. I really think any manual review process is just untenable on League's scale.

Even if we try to split up a case and use tech to streamline it? What if this were done in the form of brief surveys? It could show a piece of a chat, or a snippet of gameplay, and ask the reviewer to score it from 1 to 5 with one end being fine and the other end being toxic. This could be done in under 15 seconds, and by splitting it out so the person doesn't get to see more than that snippet, they can't make a judgement on the person themselves, and would just be reviewing that snippet of behavior.

This really isn't necessary though, as false reports don't count against you. Further, punishing "false" reports means that the system fails to learn from community input, as currently if it sees things reported that it didn't have marked it can notice a growing trend, but under a system like this it would have to mark those as false.

What if it both learned from input AND punished / threw out false reports? That way if a trend grows enough it can add that to the list of punishable behavior, but until the trend grows enough it would simply not punish the reported behavior.

I think yes. I don't want to be told that I've played badly enough I should take a break. I just got out of that game, and likely know I wasn't doing well. The game doesn't need to rub that into my face, let along suggest, quietly, that one has to perform well -- which is basically what that suggestion boils down to.

ok, I understand now. Do you think it might work if it were available as an opt-out feature? Or what about as an opt-in feature?

Cr3ator1 votes

Remove the Chat system from the game. You can chat before, and after the game, not during... that would reduce the amount of bans period.

People only voice their opinion because they can.

Also, I have a chat restriction right now for watching 2 people base race to the other side and int feed for 20 minutes in my game (of course refused early surrender), and i said WTF are you doing, this is a stupid waste of time. I lose LP, and chat restriction for them having "fun" at my expense.

Jo0o2 votes

Lots of people use chat for strategic purposes. Punishing us due to the actions of others seems unjust.

Paintchip1 votes

That's society's way now in NA. Just look at various other things where ALL the responsible get punished for the actions of an extremely few (think firearms).

HalcyonDweller2 votes

No way dude, that's a slippery slope argument.

And as far as firearms goes it's not like people are advocating for the government to send SWAT to our houses to take away our firearms. It's not unreasonable for people to want more checks and security to prevent things like what happened in florida. having to wait a day to buy more dangerous guns won't prevent reasonable folks from getting them, it just adds a buffer time that could hopefully allow authorities to figure out if the person is a threat to others or not before they have time to go on a rampage.

Paintchip1 votes

Woah kid hold your your panties! This is NOT a firearms discusion. I was just pointing out how rights are easily taken and the 100s of millions are punish for the actions if a a literal handful (count on fingers). Just giving a very recognizable comparison to where others are punished for the few.

And in this case, the vast majority of the community uses chat to flame and blame.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I highly doubt that the "vast majority" of the community does use it that way.

Paintchip1 votes

Someone doesn’t jungle much?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I jungle plenty. I have jungled a great deal over my 7-8 years of playing this game. Stop making ad-hominem assumptions just to dismiss me.

Paintchip1 votes

No no you are absolutly correct. The vast majority doesn’t use it that way. It is actually some otger fame out there that is considered to have the most toxic community ever. This community is one of those most pleasent and respectful you will ever encounter.

Awf Meta1 votes

Players only "troll" when they don't care about winning. The solution is to make players care about winning.

Take the thing players care most about then require winning to obtain it.

Awf Meta1 votes

Just thinking out loud here:

Win streaks influencing match making. Win streak vs win streak. Loss streak vs loss streak. Clash / tournaments. Adjusted scalings for game completion. Winning fast gets most rewards for winning team. Losing slow gets most rewards for losing team. Limited access to ranked queue. Detection of "careless" strategy. "First time playing champion" in ranked results in suspension from ranked.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Slight problem with that is that increasing pressure for winning will cause people to become more stressed over winning.

And the more some people care about winning, the more pleasure trolls will take in stealing victory away from those caring folks.

Awf Meta1 votes

Slight problem with that is that increasing pressure for winning will cause people to become more stressed over winning.

That is not a problem. The entire point of a competition is to win. Nothing to do with fun. If the goal was to have fun, the game would end in a draw every time.

That said, Riot could definitely have separate goals for each game mode. The goal for "ARAM" could be to have fun. While the goal for "ranked" could be to win.

And the more some people care about winning, the more pleasure trolls will take in stealing victory away from those caring folks.

The goal is to make the trolls care about winning. If the trolls cared about winning, they wouldn't troll. After all, everyone on a team loses together or wins together.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

That is not a problem. The entire point of a competition is to win. Nothing to do with fun. If the goal was to have fun, the game would end in a draw every time.

Not true. This is a game after all, and it can be fun even when losing. The problem with making people want to win more is you will be giving them even more reasons to be toxic when they think they can't win anymore. "What better way to spend the wasted time leading up to a surrender vote than to punish the person thought to be responsible for the losing game anyways?" Say toxic people.

That said, Riot could definitely have separate goals for each game mode. The goal for "ARAM" could be to have fun. While the goal for "ranked" could be to win.

... I guess? I'd be down for this.

The goal is to make the trolls care about winning. If the trolls cared about winning, they wouldn't troll. After all, everyone on a team loses together or wins together.

That is true, but there are a few problems with doing that.

  1. Some people play with zero intention of winning, they didn't care before and they won't care afterwards.

  2. This would punish people who lose right along with the trolls who made them lose. That's just going to make people even more toxic because they will be super pissed off that someone else made them miss out on the win-rewards.

Awf Meta1 votes

Not true. This is a game after all,

I specifically said "competition". Fun is not the main objective of a COMPETITION.

The problem with making people want to win more is you will be giving them even more reasons to be toxic when they think they can't win anymore. "What better way to spend the wasted time leading up to a surrender vote than to punish the person thought to be responsible for the losing game anyways?" Say toxic people.

Surrendering is a 100% effective way to LOSE. If people are trying to WIN, they will NEVER surrender.

Some people play with zero intention of winning, they didn't care before and they won't care afterwards.

MAKE them care. If we can't make them care, then we move onto removing them.

That's just going to make people even more toxic because they will be super pissed off that someone else made them miss out on the win-rewards.

That is already the case. There is no avoiding this in a team game. We could alleviate some of the problem by focusing on individual performance.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I specifically said "competition". Fun is not the main objective of a COMPETITION.

Alright, more on this later.

Surrendering is a 100% effective way to LOSE. If people are trying to WIN, they will NEVER surrender.

I agree.

MAKE them care. If we can't make them care, then we move onto removing them.

  1. here's the more: I'm onboard with this, we should absolutely restrict ranked so that people who play casually and "first time X btw" aren't allowed to remain in the queue.

  2. There is still a problem with this because not everybody is uncaring all the time. Some people stop caring after they feel like others have made it impossible to win. it is an issue of perceptions, not just one of inherent player qualities.

That is already the case. There is no avoiding this in a team game. We could alleviate some of the problem by focusing on individual performance.

Maybe. I'm not entirely convinced of this yet though.

Awf Meta1 votes

That's just going to make people even more toxic because they will be super pissed off that someone else made them miss out on the win-rewards.

That is already the case. There is no avoiding this in a team game. We could alleviate some of the problem by focusing on individual performance.

Which part are you not sure about? Does not the entire team lose LP and MMR during a loss?

The only way around this is to reward individual behavior.

There is still a problem with this because not everybody is uncaring all the time. Some people stop caring after they feel like others have made it impossible to win. it is an issue of perceptions, not just one of inherent player qualities.

I feel like we are going too philosophical. Can you add real word examples or use my idea of win streaks?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

That is already the case. There is no avoiding this in a team game. We could alleviate some of the problem by focusing on individual behavior.

I'm in favor of this.

Which part are you not sure about? Does not the entire team lose LP and MMR during a loss?

I'm unsure/concerned about potentially exacerbating existing issues.

The only way around this is to reward individual behavior.

As above, I'm in favor of this.

I feel like we are going too philosophical. Can you add real word examples or use my idea of win streaks?

Alright, sure: Lets assume that bobby and freddy are matched together for a game of league. Bobby plays terribly (having a bad game) but is not feeding, while freddy is playing relatively well, and has gotten ahead. Freddy gets upset over bobby's terrible plays, and either

a) harasses bobby by flaming him and accusing him of inting

b) says, "this game is unwinnable, gg" and begins to soft int.

If the system made losing teams get less for losing and winning teams get more for winning and this situation occurred again, freddy would likely be even more upset because he will feel like bobby is making him miss out on a huge benefit or is subjecting him to a serious setback. This is why I think that making people want to win more will only increase toxicity further, which could happen in addition to or instead of reducing trolling.

My point is that the more frustrated people feel, the more likely they are to lash out at their fellow players.

Awf Meta1 votes

a) harasses bobby by flaming him and accusing him of inting

b) says, "this game is unwinnable, gg" and begins to soft int.

c) tries his best to win the game regardless.

The problem I have with "b" is that they never had enough desire to win. They would fall under the group of people we should be removing.

"a" is an understandable concern. However, we have a mute button and IFS. Mute solves intermittent cases. IFS solves persistent cases.

I would guess, "a" increases slightly or stays the same, "b" decreases dramatically, "c" increases dramatically. Just my guess. I acknowledge your concern but can only suggest we need hard data to know for sure.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Alright, I see what you are saying and I think I'm with you now. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me! I'm going to add it to the list in the OP, if people speak up against it I'll try to direct them your way (with your permission of course).

Awf Meta1 votes

No problem. I'm going to list some more specific ideas in a different box for easier visibility.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Awesome, thanks! I'll look forwards to it, and if you like I can incorporate it into the post.

Awf Meta1 votes

Use your own discretion. I think some examples could help though. Does seem kind of vague up there.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Yeah, the post is purposefully vague in a number of places. The goal is to summarize discussions down here and allow people to find more depth of discussion in the comments section.

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