wtf is a ban wave? doesnt that go against riot policies?

Deliberate Feed··1 votes·4,068 views

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are people saying that there are instances where riot dish out bans in waves... didn't riot state they wanted instant feedback so that the player can connect his bad behavior to the instant punishment received? didn't they say the more time lag in between those two things, the less effective the player behavior reforming is?

than how can there be a ban wave? instant feedback on bad behavior means ban waves should never be happening.

6 seasons riot. it took you 6 seasons to get your heads on straight and make a system that detects feeders (or so you claim). this past year you put all this emphasis on reducing the time lag between punishment and bad behavior and than apparently there are ban waves? and 6 damn season and there are still IP farming bots playing ARAM games. get ur stuff together once and for all so that those systems would be effective for a long time. that would be efficient.not these small (ineffective) tweaks you do over 6 years while pooling so many resources into skins and other useless junk.

43 Comments

Deep Terror Nami15 votes

To elaborate somewhat on why they do it in waves, it's so that the cheaters don't know how or why they are caught. If they slowly ban people as they are found the third party cheat developers will have time to patch it to be undetected for the remaining thousands who weren't caught already. By dropping them all at once they have no chance of slipping away. It also takes time to ensure they are banning the right people; they do not ban people for cheating unless they are 100% certain of it.

Deliberate Feed2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oHHqJQoG,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-14T09:21:06.676+0000)

To elaborate somewhat on why they do it in waves, it's so that the cheaters don't know how or why they are caught. If they slowly ban people as they are found the third party cheat developers will have time to patch it to be undetected for the remaining thousands who weren't caught already. By dropping them all at once they have no chance of slipping away. It also takes time to ensure they are banning the right people; they do not ban people for cheating unless they are 100% certain of it.

and the same IP farming script bots from season 4 are still in low level aram games. thats 2 years. go and make an account, level it to around 8~10 and play arams. You'll notice 60% of the players are bots. Let me repeat, this is still happening and has been happening from at least season 4. so please tell me how they are ensuring the "right bans". roflll.

Deep Terror Nami5 votes

They are found in low levels and not high because they get caught. They have to play before they can get detected as a bot. It's just something that can't be done accurately with an automated system right now, because sometimes they just look like really bad players (you don't want a system that bans all the new people!).

Deliberate Feed1 votes

are u dumb? these ip farming bots are better than most players. you don't even know what bots im talking about clearly.

and yes these bots are obvious. some of the behavior they do every game:

  1. shuffling back and forth around tower (this becomes so obvious when you have 3~4 bots on the same team as they all shuffle back and forth at the same time)
  2. exact same item order (even if it is full ad or full ap on the other team), same starting items for fixed champs.
  3. always moves dead center in the lane. they will never go to the sides of the lane, bushes, or heals.
Captain Archer1 votes

I actually see this all the time on my other account currently level 10. managed to get in a game with the same person building full tank in the same item order regardless of champion over and over and over. Even over the span of a few days. No need to call someone dumb though, their point was valid and most of the bots I see feed the entire game.

DrCyanide6 votes

same IP farming script bots

Can you verify that the source code and the behavior for those bots haven't changed? Because if they've changed, then they're not the same bots. They might be the same operators, but not the same bots.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

go to youtube. go type aram ip farming bots. go find the older videos that dates to around season 4. they exhibit the exact same behavior as the ones i play with on my lvl 10 account. let me list you some of the identical behavior they exhibit from season 4.

  1. shuffling back and forth around tower (this becomes so obvious when you have 3~4 bots on the same team as they all shuffle back and forth at the same time)
  2. exact same item order (even if it is full ad or full ap on the other team), same starting items for fixed champs.
  3. always moves dead center in the lane. they will never go to the sides of the lane, bushes, or heals.
Jubbinaut11 votes

Ban waves are issued for scripting, MMR boosting, illegal 3rd-party programs, and the like. That is to say, they're issued for things that are not or cannot be handled by the current systems.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

and the same IP farming script bots from season 4 are still in low level aram games. thats 2 years. go and make an account, level it to around 8~10 and play arams. You'll notice 60% of the players are bots. Let me repeat, this is still happening and has been happening from at least season 4. so the current system can't handle a 2 year long ip farming bot system network?

Jubbinaut2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deliberate Feed,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oHHqJQoG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T17:23:16.869+0000)

so the current system can't handle a 2 year long ip farming bot system network?

None of the systems that I know of have been developed to address bots. I'm sure there's some amount of automation to the detection, but I'm also sure that, much like with scripting/hacking and MMR-boosting, any bans are manually verified and issued.

To my knowledge, however, anti-botting bans aren't issued in waves, so I'm not sure what they have to do with the point your OP seems to be making.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

"None of the systems that I know of have been developed to address bots" right cause who cares about bots that ruin games and cheat the system to power level their accounts. instead lets focus on making some more skins. "I'm sure there's some amount of automation to the detection" i thought you just said none of the systems address bots. make ur mind up before speaking. secondly there obviously insnt any automation to the detection if the same bots are still running rampant from 2 years ago. go make an account to around lvl 8 or 10 and play aram and see how 60% of the players are bots like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBOfwJVkZ_o "anti-botting bans aren't issued in waves" what anti-botting bans? you mean the one that doesnt exist? "so I'm not sure what they have to do with the point your OP seems to be making" I am the OP.

Jubbinaut3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deliberate Feed,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oHHqJQoG,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T18:07:01.928+0000)

right cause who cares about bots that ruin games and cheat the system to power level their accounts. instead lets focus on making some more skins.

Riot cares, obviously. That's why botting is a bannable offense - but merely banning individual bot accounts isn't going to stop the problem, which is why they're trying to address the reasons people make them/buy them. That's a large part of why RAF was shut down.

i thought you just said none of the systems address bots. make ur mind up before speaking.

I said none of the systems that I know of address bots. That doesn't mean other systems don't exist - only that I don't know about them.

secondly there obviously insnt any automation to the detection if the same bots are still running rampant from 2 years ago. go make an account to around lvl 8 or 10 and play aram and see how 60% of the players are bots like these:

I suspect there's two reasons for this:

  1. Bots are typically designed to interact exclusively with the mouse/keyboard inputs, rather than the client itself. This makes validation of their presence more complicated than otherwise, because the client doesn't know the difference between bot-triggered mouse clicks and person-triggered mouse clicks. As such, it takes an unfortunate amount of time to detect them, and longer still to validate and issue bans.
  2. Botters can make and level new bot accounts faster than Riot can detect them - meaning that while many are being banned, many more aren't - or are taking too long to get banned. This is another point in favor of a preventative approach (that is, removing the reasons for botting, rather than trying to keep with removing the individual bot accounts).

That's not to say that either of these is an acceptable situation - only that it's more complicated than it seems on the surface. As such, it's hard for me to fault them for still trying to find the most effective solution (while they're also trying to work on other issues).

what anti-botting bans? you mean the one that doesnt exist?

If bot accounts aren't banned, why aren't there more bots in the lvl 15-25 range?

I am the OP.

In the context of that statement, OP meant "Original Post," rather than "Original Poster." My apologies for the lack of clarity.

I still don't understand what this point has to do with that original post, since you were talking about ban waves.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

"If bot accounts aren't banned, why aren't there more bots in the lvl 15-25 range" they play around to lvl 20. why does it take 2 months, up until 20 lvls to finally detect them? why cant they detect them over the first 50 games where the bots exhibit the EXACT SAME behavior, EXACT SAME item set, EXACT SAME micro, EXACT SAME movement pathings. It shouldn't take 200 games. 20 games is enough to recognize this isn't a coincidence.

Jubbinaut2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deliberate Feed,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oHHqJQoG,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T20:58:46.689+0000)

they play around to lvl 20. why does it take 2 months, up until 20 lvls to finally detect them? why cant they detect them over the first 50 games where the bots exhibit the EXACT SAME behavior, EXACT SAME item set, EXACT SAME micro, EXACT SAME movement pathings. It shouldn't take 200 games. 20 games is enough to recognize this isn't a coincidence.

Sure! And then they're detected, and a case is built. So how long until someone can actually check that case? Because that's the real question.

Riot cannot afford false positives in these situations - screwing over a low-level player, even accidentally and temporarily, runs too high a risk of losing players. So the bans can't be issued automatically, which means someone has to look at every case, and that person needs to be extremely sure that the case they're looking at is really a bot before they can push the ban-button.

Of course, that comes back to how many bots there are (there's a lot) - and how easy it is to get new ones running (it's incredibly easy). In fact, I think it's a safe bet that it's easier and faster to make new bot accounts than it is to detect and ban them - which means some are going to slip through.

Is it really that unreasonable, then, that it could take them months to deal with a backlog of cases? I don't think it is. I think it's unfortunate, I think it sucks, and I think the best approach is to remove the motivation to run bots - but I don't think it's unreasonable for them to have trouble keeping up.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

oh right a shortage of people to look into cases but a surplus of people to get useless junk like building skins. priorities?

Jubbinaut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deliberate Feed,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oHHqJQoG,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-14T22:28:10.641+0000)

oh right a shortage of people to look into cases but a surplus of people to get useless junk like building skins. priorities?

That's the problem in a nutshell: there are too many things of major impact that require attention for Riot to dedicate resources to the kind of constant supervision that would be required to handle bots the way you suggest.

And it's not just skins. There's also new champs, champ reworks, the client update, the new Tribunal, the new Champ Select, Player Support, Boards dev, game balance, and I honestly don't even know what all else they've got going.

A lot of those things are pretty important to a massive number of people. Some are necessary for game health. None can really afford to be ignored for any meaningful length of time.

So, could they stand to shunt a little more attention to addressing bots? Probably. But the same could be said about most of the pans they've got in the fire.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

you realize you are comparing skins (an absolutely useless feature) with botting (a system that cheats its way to farm ip and ruin an entire game mode for the few human players). you really think they are the same pan in the fire? apparently riot does.

Bag o Cats2 votes

You realize you are comparing two completely different tasks that require two completely different sets of skills to tackle, right? If Riot takes manpower away from one area, another area doesn't just magically get more efficient. They're doing what they can and have been in this business for a while. If they could simply wave a magic wand and make the bots go away, I assure you they would. Take a chill pill. :3

Deliberate Feed1 votes

resources are finite. if you pool resources into skins than you don't have as much resources for hiring people that make ban systems.

Jubbinaut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deliberate Feed,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oHHqJQoG,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-15T07:05:57.180+0000)

you realize you are comparing skins (an absolutely useless feature) with botting (a system that cheats its way to farm ip and ruin an entire game mode for the few human players). you really think they are the same pan in the fire? apparently riot does.

Maybe. Maybe not. I know that skins make money, and money keeps the servers going and the business afloat and the employees paid (that last one's pretty important to getting rid of bots, remember). I know that people want new skins, which means it's something Riot needs to pay attention to.

What I don't know is the relative amount of attention they're paying to each. And without knowing that, I believe that it's not exactly reasonable to make assumptions about which one they're more concerned with.

Minarde1 votes

They're a little old, but here's a anti-cheat banwave from seven months ago. Here's a bot banwave from a week after that. I'll admit that it's certainly possible that Riot's stopped doing banwaves since then though.

Jubbinaut1 votes

{quoted}

They're a little old, but here's a anti-cheat banwave from seven months ago. Here's a bot banwave from a week after that. I'll admit that it's certainly possible that Riot's stopped doing banwaves since then though.

I knew the anti-cheat one (even mentioned those, I think?). I had forgotten the one for bots, though. Doh! Thanks for the correction.

It does feel a little more like an "initial wave" for a new initiative, rather than a one-off kind of thing. Whether that's the case or not, I don't know, but it seems likely that I would have made such an assumption when I first read it.

Good catch, though!

KarKzz8 votes

Ban waves are for scripts / hacks. Because once they got a way to identity one, the players using it get banned all at once.

Deliberate Feed2 votes

and the same IP farming script bots from season 4 are still in low level aram games. thats 2 years. go and make an account, level it to around 8~10 and play arams. You'll notice 60% of the players are bots. Let me repeat, this is still happening and has been happening from at least season 4.

KarKzz1 votes

I don't get why you are downvoted, because on that point, you are right. Bots fucks up a lot of dominion / aram.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

I've never touched dominion but I've heard it's full of bots as well. People that downvote are the riot defenders. They can't possibly fathom the possibility that their beloved riot would ignore bots and feeders. I mean it was literally 2 months ago where they announced that they now have a system to detect people that feed on purpose. this was after 5 whole seasons... they were spending so much resources with useless stuff like skins or upgrading the map. great priorities!

Sarutobi5 votes

To continue with what the last two people said. They obviously want to know how to detect it clearly. So without trying to worry both the people making the program and using the program it's better to keep it in waves so that no one really knows what causes it. These programs possibly get updated daily and because of the that Riot wants to improve the next time it's upgraded. It would also worry the people making the programs because they'll never know exactly what caused it to trigger the detection.

The sad thing is really the main people who are hurt by this are the players playing against teams that are cheating. As far as I know Riot doesn't do rollbacks, or give some type of compensation towards people who might have been in all games that are using hacks!

Deliberate Feed1 votes

and the same IP farming script bots from season 4 are still in low level aram games. thats 2 years. go and make an account, level it to around 8~10 and play arams. You'll notice 60% of the players are bots. Let me repeat, this is still happening and has been happening from at least season 4.

the real sad thing is how so many ip farming scripts are left untouched and how they needed 6 seasons to try and challenge the feeding problem. (which to my knowledge still fails hard at detecting feeders)

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Ban waves are usually employed for specific things like botting.

Ban waves don't apply for typical toxic behavior. You can get banned any time for being a toxic player.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBOfwJVkZ_o

these bots are still around. go make a new account and lvl it up to around 8 and play aram. you'll see the exact same type of bots.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, that's fine, and I'll refer to Jubbinaut's post above. Ban waves aren't for bots. I was wrong.

Also, those are likely NOT the same bots. I am not intimately familiar with botting practices, but I know enough to know that people who actually write bot programs are constantly updating, partially to avoid automated detection. It's not as easy as it seems to get rid of all the botters. They have methods specifically designed to prevent getting caught.

If you know what those are, and know how to get around them, you could help by trying to give that information to Riot, instead of complaining about something they are trying to fix.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

"Also, those are likely NOT the same bots. I am not intimately familiar with botting practices" if you aren't familiar with it than stfu? you can go experience these hordes of bots and compare it with the videos ive posted and see how identical they are. did you even see the video? do you see how 4 of them are clumped and all moving in unison? you call that hard to detect? after 2 years? literally go play in a low level aram game before spewing ur mouth over something u've never even experienced.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Okay, "playing with them" has nothing to do with programming experience. You obviously have 0 idea about how detection systems work. If Riot put literally all their money into people watching monitors and banning people they thought were botting, they STILL wouldn't put a DENT in the bot population. You yourself admit they are ubiquitous.

So you should probably stop spewing off, since you clearly have no programming experience and haven't actually thought through the problem at all. When it's clear that someone hasn't even bothered to use their brain to think about a problem, they get ignored. So enjoy that.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

I never said put money into people watching monitors. i said they should develop a system that flags bots when they are all hovering around tower, following minion waves, never deviate from the middle of the lane, build the same items. over 2 seasons.

you probably should stfu seeing as these mentioned behaviours are very obvious when they are repeated over 100's of games. and yes, i have looked up the stats on these bot accounts after i finish a game of aram and they have literally a month of games non stop with the same behavior. fail more

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Obvious to a human viewer. Which you openly state is a bad way to catch them.

Do you not see the disconnect there? If Riot knew how they were obvious and detectable by a program, they would be banned already.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

obvious also upon their right-clicking mechanics and how they will always click dead center of the lane every game. obvious also upon 4 bots synchronizing their right clicks completely in unison.

it is obvious. just like how feeding on purpose was also an obvious problem. but riot needed 5 seasons to address intentional feeders. why are you surprised they need more than 2 seasons to detect obvious bot mechanics?

Captain Archer1 votes

have yet to actually see this on my level 10 account, never once saw it on this account leveling up to 30. played almost exclusively arams (unless i had friends on) til I could do team builder too. video is obviously old, maybe post a 'newer' one so that we can see that this is actually happening still? not to say that botting doesn't happen, but I don't think its that extreme currently I mean I did write this one:

{quoted}

I actually see this all the time on my other account currently level 10. managed to get in a game with the same person building full tank in the same item order regardless of champion over and over and over. Even over the span of a few days.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

rofl. there is alwasy 3 to 8 bots in games of aram i play. I've posted this over and over on the board, i've posted the accounts that are botting over and over (riot keeps taking them down saying "this is shaming which isn't allowed), if you can't notice the bots behavior its most likely cause you are focused on the other players that play worse than the bots. these bots play much better than the typical aram player, so well that I'm happy to have bots on my team. they play safe/turtle effectively/poke well/don't feed while the other human players end up with lower KDA's than the bots. you have played with these bots before, you just don't notice them cause they probably play better than you.

Captain Archer1 votes

glad to know you cant have a conversation with someone without being rude as hell. You have copied and pasted almost everything you have replied to on this thread from your OP without bringing new information to the table, instead of getting a video of it happening NOW, you chose to insult how I play when you have never played with me or probably will never because You are obviously going to be one of those ragers/trolls everyone hates to play with. Gl with your future chat restrictions/bans. I was genuinely interested in seeing proof and supported your cause but now I couldn't care less and I'm done with this pointless whiney thread. Besides continuing to compare bot detection to skin creation is stupid, you must be one of those people who hate riot because they don't want to spend money.

TL:DR, Either wipe the salt off your shoulder and wipe the tears away and stop complaining about everything or stop playing arams. It is NEVER going to be perfectly fixed, as everyone has said, riot is doing their best.

Deliberate Feed1 votes

why are you demanding the video to be uploaded as if you are entitled. All you have to do is type it in youtube, clamp the settings to show only videos uploaded in the past month and there you have it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGOCpX1gbd8

get off your high horse and don't command others to do your bidding.

and ur right, it never will be perfectly fixed. cause why fix a bot thats been around for 2 seasons. and if by "best", you mean taking 6 seasons to finally address people that feed (feed detection system) than ok. I guess thats how low of a standard you have for riot.

Tract1 votes

What I(and others) meant by ban wave is that most of the time, they collect large amounts of information on suspected accounts over a period of time. Once they are sure that the account is punishment worthy, then the ban goes out. That is why it seems to be in "waves" since they spend time gathering info and then ban all of them at once, isntaid of just here-and-there bans like toxicity, which will happen very soon after a highly toxic game ends.

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