Unpopular Opinion, but Retaliation Does NOT Equal Instigation

Tegash·7/23/2018, 3:09:12 AM·2 votes·1,826 views

We've all seen the posts where people are upset about getting banned for reacting to trolls. And I get it, toxicity is a bad thing and should be avoided. But let's break this down for a second.

Unless you're crossing a line, such as by using hate speech, retaliation for instigatory behaviour should not be punishable. What this teaches is that:

  1. If you fight back against somebody who is mistreating you, you are at fault for not simply sitting and taking it.

  2. If you antagonise somebody hard enough and often enough, you can take them down with you if you get punished.

This is a deeply flawed system and although the learning algorithm for League is good at picking up toxicity, it cannot distinguish between the person who inflamed the argument and the person who is reacting.

Trolls don't care about going down. They simply don't. It means they win, and if dedicated enough they will certainly make another account to do it again and again ad infinitum.

On the other hand, a player who is penalized simply for reacting to being baited will likely leave the game forever.

Consider the following situation: a young person, say about 25, is mugged. They are an upstanding person with no record. Their mugger is a repeat offender who has been imprisoned for petty theft and assault multiple times.

Under the current system in use by Riot? Both the mugger and the victim are jailed. The mugger doesn't lose much aside from their pocket change. The victim, however, has had their life and livelihood ruined. They now have a criminal record and can't apply for most jobs.

Does this sound like justice served? Does this sound like an effective system that protects victims and can't be abused by lawbreakers?

We need a more intuitive and nuanced solution than this.

EDIT: Since people are missing the point, I'll clarify it. I am not advocating, nor am I glorifying, toxicity. I haven't received a single reprimand from Riot in the almost 4 years I've been playing. But as long as the punishment system sides with the aggressor (first flamer/inter/AFK/troll) over the victim (unlucky recipient who flames back), then the punishment system is unequivocally flawed.

49 Comments

ModThe Djinn7/23/2018, 3:13:29 AM16 votes

Under the current system in use by Riot? Both the mugger and the victim are jailed.

No, that's not how it works.

Firstly, there is no self-defense by retaliation, because counter-aggression doesn't help when it's just in chat. So our metaphor is a mugger whose victim turns around and mugs him in exchange.

Additionally, both player get points against them, but they are not necessarily punished equally. A repeated offender not only suffers a worse punishment from the escalating punishment system, but ALSO has a lower threshold to pass before they are punished again.

redniwediS7/23/2018, 3:19:05 AM10 votes

We're talking about purely verbal offenses here, in an environment where you are given the tools to completely stop harassment with the push of a button. Real life examples don't exactly apply very well.

Following Riot's rules does not teach people that they are at fault, or that they should sit there and take abuse, it teaches people to use the tools at their disposal to solve the problem. You don't have to work outside the system in order to get results.

What we need is better access to information about the punishment system, the proper procedure for dealing with flaming and harassment, and stuff like that. We don't need more information, we have enough already, we just need people to be able to access it in a usable way.

Aneirin7/23/2018, 3:30:47 AM8 votes

If you fight back against somebody who is mistreating you, you are at fault for not simply sitting and taking it.

You don't have to sit and take it. There's a mute button that makes it literally impossible for you to continue to be flamed. There's a report button for flamers and toxic players to get them punished.

Consider the following situation: a young person, say about 25, is mugged. They are an upstanding person with no record. Their mugger is a repeat offender who has been imprisoned for petty theft and assault multiple times. Under the current system in use by Riot? Both the mugger and the victim are jailed.

If you're going to make up an analogy, at least make it relevant to the situation. In your scenario the person being mugged hasn't done anything. Riot doesn't punish you simply for being flamed or trolled.

If, however, the victim in your scenario had fought the mugger that still wouldn't be an apples-to-apples comparison because real life doesn't have an instant mute feature, and in league your life is not in danger.

A better comparison would be to say if your neighbour is playing loud music at 2am is the correct response to

a. Ask them to turn the music down politely.

b. Call noise control.

c. Turn on your own music as loud as you can.

Obviously in case C your actions have no affect on the person playing the music, nor do they do anything at all to fix the situation. What it does do is make the problem twice as bad for everyone else in your neighbourhood.

TheEvilQueen1357/23/2018, 3:22:00 AM7 votes

in a school it doesn't matter who started the name calling and verbal abuses, both kids are given detention or some other form of punishment. two wrongs don't make it right and by being verbal back you are ruining the game for the other people too

Zombie Gerbil7/23/2018, 6:09:24 AM5 votes

Probably one of the silliest posts I've ever seen. What are you defending yourself from in a video game? Your household property? Your belongings? Your life?

Get over. Grow up. Mute them. Report them. Move on.

There is no law here. There is only a policy we are all bound to. You do not get to choose when the policy that you already agreed to and go against it as if it doesn't apply. Now stop bickering and whining, and just mute them already. We're here to play a video game, not see someone "defending" themselves on the internet on a video because their feelings were hurt. It's just dumb and sad. Abide by the policy and just report them.

Just delete this post, dude. This is just flat out silly and you're making yourself look silly by leaving it here. There are no muggers, lawbreakers, or murders being committed here. You're in a video game. Not on the street.

IcyPepper7/23/2018, 4:21:49 AM5 votes

You know, there have been cases where extreme force against a perp has resulted in penalties against the aggressor, even if they were stopping a violent crime in the process.

A such thing as "reasonable force" exists. In this case, it would be the mute button.

Kei1437/23/2018, 4:01:29 AM3 votes

If the guy got thrown into jail, he would had a history of beating up many muggers already.

They review him, let him go, review him again, and let him go. Repeat that 25 times, that dude that is being mugged is now also charged with consistent assault into others.

SugeMinPikk7/23/2018, 7:40:16 PM3 votes

Punishment for flame is more like a noise complaint than a mugging lol

Just mute the dude. Choosing not to use the mute button is choosing to be upset by words on a screen.

Colgate Gator7/23/2018, 7:58:52 PM3 votes

{quoted}

  1. If you fight back against somebody who is mistreating you, you are at fault for not simply sitting and taking it.

Because in this situation, you can simply mute them, report them and let the system deal with the situation.

P4ppino7/23/2018, 6:35:57 AM2 votes

The system is actually pretty straightforward. You are toxic, you are negative in chat, you get punished. Very easy to avoid.

Xidphel7/23/2018, 3:23:39 PM2 votes

Retaliation Does NOT Equal Instigation

Well... Yeah. It started with someone flaming you which led to you retaliating. You still contributed to the negative environment.

ΦmalphintoΦ7/23/2018, 8:42:00 AM1 votes

Huh someone could downvote me on this, funny ;) reasons.. where.. are they..