Boards›Player Behavior

Five Critical Improvements to Riot's Behavioral System (from somebody who has never been punished)

Jo0o·2/9/2019, 7:34:54 PM·182 votes·30,800 views

Anybody who sticks around these boards long enough may notice a trend of folks either being punished and therefore having all sorts of ideas of how they'd "fix the system" (read: alter it in such a way that they wouldn't get punished), or having accounts in good standing and generally supporting Riot across the board. I'd like to offer an alternate perspective: I've never been punished and do generally agree with how Riot handles things, but I'd like to create a list of reasonable improvements they should consider. Please feel free to point out any flaws with my reasoning.

1) Honor level 0 SHOULD NOT EXIST.

Honor level 0, in its current form, is purely a "fuck you" to toxic players. And while I have little sympathy for individuals who drop down so low, the fact that honor level 2 is required to have an account in good standing means that the only difference between levels 0 and 1 is how much grinding a player needs to do to recover their account. This discourages reform by creating a needlessly large obstacle towards honor progression. As deplorable as some of the behavior is that currently earns a drop to honor 0, nobody deserves a prison sentence over a game of League, no matter their behavior.

2) We need more feedback on our behavior.

As has been demonstrated and confirmed by Riot, honor level growth within the current system can be delayed or halted due to substantiated reports against one's behavior, even when those reports aren't enough to trigger a chat restriction or ban. Why don't we receive these reports? It should be simple for Riot to give us a pop-up notification saying something like "Recent reports against your behavior have been found to be accurate. When you exhibit negative behavior, your honor level progression can slow or stop, and you may even be issued a chat restriction or ban if this behavior continues. The following logs were found to be negative/unsportsmanlike. If you have any questions, please ask for clarification via a support ticket (link) or on the Player Behavior boards (link)". This would go a long way towards teaching players what they shouldn't be doing, rather than letting them learn through harder punishments.

3) We need more feedback on the results of our reports.

Riot's party line regarding punishment notifications is that they're inconsistent for privacy reasons and/or to prevent headhunting. To which I say... screw that. There is currently zero faith among much of the community that our reports do anything, because we almost never see it actually working. Even worse, this can lead to players assuming behavior that they've reported is acceptable, and then engaging in that behavior themselves (as evidenced by plenty of threads on these boards). I'm not asking for a list of every account we're responsible for punishments against, but we need consistent reinforcement that our reports do or do not matter. I see no evidence that headhunting or privacy violations would actually happen, nor do I see any compelling reason why either would be so bad.

4) 10-game chat restrictions should NOT result in a loss of honor level.

People get heated and make mistakes. It happens to plenty of us. For many players, their first indication that their chat usage is incompatible with Riot's behavioral guidelines takes the form of a ten-game chat restriction. Restrict away, by all means, but give players the benefit of the doubt that they'll adjust after seeing where the line is, and don't punish them beyond those ten games.

5) Improve rewards at high honor.

Honor rewards are nice, but they're not enough. Anybody with a Freshman understanding of psychology knows that positive reinforcement is the way to go, and handing out the occasional free skin should barely scratch Riot's bottom line. Give people a better reason than fear to improve their behavior. Unique skins or free skins would help tremendously.

129 Comments

Umbral Regent2/9/2019, 8:12:00 PM39 votes

1) Honor level 0 SHOULD NOT EXIST.

I'm 50/50 about this - on the one hand, I generally agree with the idea that players who repeatedly break the rules should be given a much sterner punishment than a drop to Honor Level 1 (whether or not they were already there), but on the other hand, I can also see how Honor Level 0 can be an insurmountable climb for some, giving them no reason to actually consider reforming due to the work they put in.

On a similar note, I've seen it discussed in some rare occasions the unfairness of an Honor drop straight to 0/1 from a singular instance of punishment, and I can see merit in taking another look at Honor in relation to punishments overall.

2) We need more feedback on our behavior.

3) We need more feedback on the results of our reports.

For these two, I wholeheartedly agree. I know it's been said that warnings were used before, and previously led to an influx of confused people assuming they were punished, but I still feel largely that having some sign of your behavior falling below the line would make the difference for a lot of people.

Surely they could set up a little "warning" blip to show up in the Client after a report is validated to give an unobtrusive heads-up about player misbehavior? Just to spitball.

As for report feedback, this is something that I think has been an unequivocal complaint even from ardent defenders/believers of the system - the lack of clarity about reports mattering. I've probably repeated the whole "it's meant to be an occasional reminder" line ad nauseum at this point, but I still know that it's extremely difficult for a fair amount of people to not seek vindication after being slighted or wronged.

And, as you said - not getting that feedback report with any consistency leads to people either assuming that someone got off scott-free, or that the behavior they reported was okay, repeating it themselves and putting themselves at risk of punishment. Neither of those outcomes are good, and at the very least, I think the Instant Feedback Report should be far more frequent, if not actually occurring on every punishing report.

And, in that vein, it should also be worth mentioning that there may also need to be some reinforcement that not every report will result in a punishment, but still result in a mark against the reported player's account if they misbehaved, since most people (at least that I've seen) have the ultimatum of "they have to be punished or the system isn't working".

4) 10-game chat restrictions should NOT result in a loss of honor level.

I'm unsure of this, primarily due to general skepticism, but I also have to wonder, if paired with some of the other hypothetical changes (No. 1 and 2), if it'd really be necessary? As well, this also could relate to my earlier statement of the Honor System's interaction with punishments needing review, but, all the same, it is still a change to consider either way.

5) Improve rewards at high honor.

This, I can also readily agree with. As it stands, the only major rewards we get at Honor Levels 4 and 5 are a near-guaranteed skin shard (Honor 4), and either one of two Honor-Exclusive Skin (Grey Warwick, Medieval Twitch), a Chroma for one or the other (confirmed to come later down the line by I Am Carlos in the Skins in Season 2019 video), or a guaranteed Epic-tier (1350RP) Skin shard if one already has everything else.

While I am personally pretty psyched to see what the Grey Warwick Chroma will be, I also feel that special Chromas seem like a cheap solution to Honor Level 5 not having enough content to cover more than two Seasons - if anything, Chromas as the next Honor 5 rewards likely makes it feel like the special, exclusive rewards for consistent positive behavior is simply going to diminish down the line.

It doesn't really feel right to have two (arguably) 975 skins as the first two rewards (although Grey Warwick, since his VGU, is more on par with 1350s), with the next few rewards being simple recolors (260RP in value), and then after that a random 1350+ skin. I feel like instead, they should make a new, 1350-quality skin to make as another Honor-Exclusive, and, like Hextech Exclusives (for the most part, anyway), try to make a variety of unique skins for the purpose.

But, that's just my rambling on Honor 5 rewards, and any further of it would probably best be suited for Story, Art, & Sound, so I'll give it a rest here.

All told, I can more-or-less largely agree with this all. No. 2, 3, and 5 I can wholeheartedly agree with, and while I'm uncertain how much I agree with 1 and 4, I can still understand the reasoning for such changes.

World peace plz2/9/2019, 7:45:46 PM17 votes

I really hope riot look at this your ideas sounds really good*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

Agent Corgi2/9/2019, 9:17:38 PM6 votes

I believe SapMagic mentioned that after making it to Honor Level 5, you earn the following:

  • Chromas for Medieval Twitch AND Gray Warwick, assuming you already own them. If you don't own them, you will only receive one of the skins.
  • Random Ward Skin OR Random Emote

Personally (as much as I like the Idea of having Chromas for Medieval Twitch), I would rather see more skins added to the Honor System instead. They could add skins like Rusty Blitzcrank (Ofcourse, it would probably be best to wait until Blitz's model is updated first) or the two skins that were recently retired, RIOT Girl Tristana and Unchained Alistar.

Saezio2/9/2019, 8:53:40 PM5 votes

Increase honor levels to 10. Allow people to gain honor as fast as they play and not according to rito honor schedule. For real everyone is hitting the checkpoints at the same time, it's not even funny anymore, riot are just lying that the only thing to do to raise our honour is play sportsmanlike games, when this is not true and its obvious. Even if you got 500 games played in the new season so far you can't be honour 3 it seems.

woodvsmurph2/11/2019, 12:22:28 AM5 votes

As someone who has been ranked honor 5... and honor 0 at the same time while treating people the same way dependent on THEIR treatment of ME, I'll give a few inputs and insights that I've offered before and hope one day Riot will actually listen to and use to improve.

First off, let me say I'm not naturally an asshole. I actually prefer to be the complete opposite. I'm the guy that's stupidly cheering on and encouraging the 2/5/0 teammate that's played poorly all game when we manage to go even in a fight... and act like he just solo killed all of skt. And on teams with low morale and building up toxicity among teammates, it actually helps a lot. We don't always make a comeback and win, but everyone's attitude improves for the most part and we have fun even if we still lose the game. That's just the kind of guy I like to be.

As far as your points and suggestions, I'd say I 100% agree with the first 2. The third I'd love to agree to; however, as Riot has said they cannot give details for every single report or it would lead to abuse. Trust me... I'm a creative guy... it would work. They could still improve feedback though without going so far as to give a yes/no on every person you report. Perhaps a monthly... "we are actively investigating ## of players or have taken reform action towards them based on your feedback this month, thanks for helping us make league a friendlier place". Then there's no way to link this with players, but you can still regularly see results.

Point 4... I think it should still result in honor loss (yeah, it's happened to me), but perhaps not immediate honor 0 for one time. If you get chat restriction, it's not for only 1 game of toxic chat... unless that chat was REALLY REALLY worst stuff possible you can say. And if warnings were implemented like you suggest, then you'd have plenty of time/chances to improve and KNOW you need to improve before multi-game toxicity lead to chat restriction.

Point 5. I like that kind of idea and I think it would be great except they'd probably have to way up what it took to reach honor 5. Plus I can 100% say that there's honor 4 or 5 players who can be pretty rude sometimes and players don't always honor people because they're nice/honorable. And while giving out one skin... per season to honor 5 player might sound like very affordable, multiply that by how many players are out there and the numbers get really big. So I'd suggest looking into non-monetary options or alternatives too that Riot might be more considerate of implementing. Ex: higher priority in finding games (not much, but a bit) so it's like honor 4 or 5 gets you a fast pass at Disneyland sort of as far as finding your next league match. Or maybe you get to rent a skin of your choice for free once a month for a few games. This would be less money Riot is giving away for free and would even potentially boost skin sales because the player trying it out really likes skin and decides to buy.

I think Riot does a great job of addressing blatant toxicity in chat and the improvements you've suggested would make it even better. But... there's a second half to toxicity which is not discussed, gets dismissed if it is brought up, and is honestly causing much of the first half. So, let's look at the dark side of toxicity... the side nobody wants to address... the side people excuse... the source that fuels much of the blatant toxicity.

Imagine you're playing bot lane and the enemy mid (4/1/0 in lane, even or ahead in cs) and enemy jg decide to perma-camp you all of laning phase. To the point you literally can't go to halfway point in lane without a leblanc or elise jumping on you from min 3 to min 18. Just non-stop there denying you the ability to build an advantage in your lane even though you completely outclass their bot duo. Annoying right? Well we haven't even gotten to annoying yet. Elise will literally flash basic combo you not to kill you... but purely to delay you basing or to chunk you out so you have to miss a wave. Your mid lane is losing. Your jg will 1v4 invade enemy bot jg but won't gank for you. When he dies 1v4 in jg, he flames you for not backing him up. Mid? Will sit there freezing wave at her tower for 40 sec rather than push to punish leblanc being bot... again. Over and over. And when you die 2v4 because your mid and jg refuse to do anything about 4 man bot all laning phase? Mid complains about another bronze bot lane feeding their opponent. The game is no fun. You have 0 agency because you're outnumbered more or less the whole laning phase. And your team does nothing to punish that or to help negate that and give you a chance. Oh, and all the while you are being what I call "low key" harassed by jg and mid. Yeah, not blatant stuff that Riot does a good job of addressing... but more subtle stuff. Things where the MEANING of what they are saying is very blatantly toxic, but the just read as words at face value won't go detected by some computer system and punished. Well, it's just one match so you can suck it up and move on right? Nope. It is 50% or more of your matches for that whole month. You win bot 2v3? Guess what, this game your team is so bad you needed to be able to 2v4. Or you can win a game if you just group and teamfight with baron buff and break second inhib to do a final push to end? Your 1/9/7 toplaner spends the next 20 min solo pushing and applying 0 tower pressure (wasting 2 baron buffs and an elder dragon) while losing any 1v1. Now the other team has caught up and you alone can't carry the game. You make 1 meaningful mistake the whole game and your team loses and... blames you.

If that's your experience, you can imagine why you might get a little upset. Why you might SAY SOMETHING blatant because you're fed up of teammates playing like crap, blaming you for everything while they're the ones throwing all game, and because you're sick of nothing being done to fix their low key toxicity and way sub-par play. You deserve better teammates than this. Once in awhile a game like this happens to everybody sure and that's ok. But 50% or more of your matches? That's absurd. Basically means that while hella tilted from 50% or so auto-loss rate you need to still play perfectly in every match (perfect for your elo anyways... we're not all challenger) just to avoid dropping elo. And if you go say anything like I just did here on the boards, you're met with more of that toxicity. People outright lying about what you said. People refusing to read what you say and just flaming you. Mods and others who are supposed to keep the boards civilized accusing you of things like kda shaming and other nonsense even as you explained in the post they're replying to that a 1/7/0 adc might very well not be inting or playing poorly and you'd defend them depending on circumstance. Or they'll say that if you just "got good" you'd climb or have 50% winrate and not drop in elo.

So you go to website that tracks stats and look to see your performance compared with that of highest ranked diamond elo player on the champ you 1-trick. And you see that combat stats, farming, macro play, etc. you are performing far above average for your elo. In fact... you are out-performing to the same degree as said diamond player does in their elo. They have 79% winrate with that champ. You? 49% winrate... while putting up same level of superior performance... and while facing the abovementioned 50% auto-loss games. But yeah, if you just got good you'd win more lul.

So what is the dark side of toxicity and how do we fix it? The dark side of toxicity is the low key toxicity that goes undetected, excused, and/or unpunished. It is also the players who either intentionally or unintentionally massively underperform in a ranked game. I know, I know... there's having a bad game. And I assure you I account for that... remember my story at the start? I'd defend that guy underperforming cuz he clearly tried even though he had a rough game. I got no problem with that type of player and them playing poorly in a game with me. I'm talking the guy who clearly and repeatedly makes the same wrong play(s) over and over. Who has 0 interest in helping his team or even allowing his team to help him. Where the guy is either clearly inting, or he's a gold elo player put in a challenger match and is being hella abused for it. If it's the first scenario and he's doing it on purpose, that's equivalent to win-trading or elo boosting (boosting other team) and should be punished strictly... just as strictly as blatant chat toxicity. If it's the latter and the player is simply placed far above their proper elo - like a gold stuck in challenger cuz placements overestimated where they belong - then we shouldn't be punishing them as far as chat restriction, temp ban, honor drop or anything like that. But it's still toxic for their team to deal with and one must wonder how they got placed so high to begin with. Stolen account or borrowed friend's account? Paid to be boosted or bought an account? Pure dumb luck? Etc. Regardless, the player clearly doesn't have the skill to be at that elo. And if the skill gap is THAT big and THAT clear, then they should be instantly demoted to more proper rank. Sure you could let system sort itself out, but when we're talking 2 full tiers or more... that's a lot of players in challenger, master, diamond, plat that have 1 or more auto-loss matches because of one person. And that spills over into their future matches especially if one or more of the players involved have a string of such matches that they encounter. One person ends up boosted themselves because they were the benefactor who got 3-4 straight auto-wins... another got 3-4 auto-losses. And now the former has a mini effect like this on their future teammates and the one who lost 3-4? They're going to hard carry and potentially boost teammates (not intentionally) that didn't deserve to win... perpetuating the whole thing on to more teammates and opponents in their future matches. So the solution is first to admit that this really is a problem. That low key toxicity and griefin exists and needs to be treated with as much passion and sincerity as Riot shows when addressing blatant toxicity.

Toxic Doku River2/11/2019, 3:24:43 AM4 votes

As a toxic person, I only care about my key fragments so I can open my chest. Other than that idgaf about being honor 5. The honor system doesn't even make sense. It's pretty much a MVP system that gives you rewards. I've had games where I call people on my team r%%%%%ed and come out with honors.

Razör2/10/2019, 10:01:19 AM4 votes

another great post riot will NOT listen to and ignore

AntiSJW2/9/2019, 7:49:44 PM3 votes

I, Sorin, applaud this

Wicked Hunter2/10/2019, 8:15:33 AM3 votes

I don t mind if you get chat restriction for being toxic but what bothers me is if you have some trolls in your team like literally trolls who feed or who do troll pick and call you useless and stuff they never get banned, but if you get angry and call them monkeys or whatever you get chat restriction.

What is more frustrating is that u barely get that instant feedback and RITO expects you to keep cool while sometimes they curse you and you think oh I m gonna stay cool and report him after because justice will be made. But hell no after you report toxic behavior, how many times you get that instant feedback???? Almost never so people think that justice isn t made so if someone flames at them they flame back because they know that if they keep cool they won t be punished anyways.

I wonder how many times are punished those for flaming and how many times those who troll/feed/rage quit? Trolls and feeders probably are never punished. Dropping honor lvl to 0 is sh*t. They need to improve the feedback message and actually punish those who troll and are toxic otherwise it s pointless to keep cool.

Also another issue, in normal games you want to play and have some fun and u re matched with a premade team and imagine all flaming at you for their mistakes, like literally all. Since you re the only one not premade with them you will be responsible for their mistakes and all troll report you even though is not your fault. They all flame at you and say some things you wouldn t want to hear and report you and say in all chat report this guy all of them and you would be surprised how many times the enemy team will say OK we ll report him, just because your word is against 4 people.This ain t fair.

purebread861012/13/2019, 2:23:59 AM2 votes

Stop focusing on people who say mean things in chat over people who intentionally feed games. Problem fucking solved

FFrazien2/10/2019, 12:45:08 AM2 votes
  1. Permabanned accounts should be able to have access to client ONLY
Terchio2/10/2019, 6:15:57 AM2 votes

I think the honor system is doing fine and well as is. Maybe some changes, but I'd hardly fault it on these points, for the most part.

{quoted}

1) Honor level 0 SHOULD NOT EXIST.

Maybe Honor Level 0 is difficult to get out of. I doubt a real analysis has been done on this, but even if it were, these aren't players that are delusional about whether they're going to hit Honor level 3 this season. These are players that are possibly on the brink of getting banned altogether. Let them know they need to reform before they get banned.

2) We need more feedback on our behavior.

I personally have received too much feedback on behavior, in my mind. I don't need to know the percentage of X honors I received vs others, or the fact that I got Y amount on my 8-game victory spree. Yeah, it's a thing, maybe kinda cool, but I think the rest of the honor system represents this enough. It's there, so keep it, I guess, but I don't need any more stats. What more feedback are we suggesting? Something more personal? Any examples?

3) We need more feedback on the results of our reports.

Would be somewhat nice, I suppose. They do give some feedback, which feels great. However, I think more feedback is also overdoing it. Personal statistics of the player, such as the fact this is their 4th impactful reported game, doesn't really add more to the effect, and inadvertently tells the player statistics about their profile, even if none are truly given. As an example, if you keep getting players who get reported on their 10th reported match, and most players are getting it on their 3rd-5th, suddenly you can probably deduce that your reports aren't having the same weight as other players. It is also telling of what offenses will be tolerated to what extent sometimes. These are the statistics we don't need derived from our reform system. Players should be aware their actions have repercussions, but not be able to deduce ways to work around the system.

4) 10-game chat restrictions should NOT result in a loss of honor level.

So you get a 10-game restriction, but lose no honor progress at all? If you cross the line, maybe you shouldn't get straight banned or anything, but anything less than 1 honor level feels like maybe you didn't mess up so bad, I can just keep spouting off as soon as my restriction is up, limited consequences.

Restrictions aren't meant to be scoffed at. The player needs to know they messed up before their actions land them with a ban. They can attempt to get perfect honor next year, assuming they last that long.

5) Improve rewards at high honor.

I'm not going to say rewards are a spectacle, but the goal isn't to completely sate a player's thirst off of playing nicely on the playground. This playground is free, but somebody is still paying the bills. When you already get rewards for playing at all (not even nicely), there isn't going to be much room for expanding those rewards for being on good behavior, plus then for playing well and in varied roles. So, overall, what is acceptable? I think they've hit a plenty accommodating mark.

Overall, these are things I feel anybody would clearly desire out of any system, but they're just not practical in the big scheme of things. They also mostly don't give any real goal to work towards, effectively saying, "More awesome, please!". I personally like where Honor is at.

BrightWîngs2/10/2019, 11:05:24 AM2 votes

I disagree with the honor level 0 its INSANELY difficult to get honor level 0 if you are at all a decent human being if you get honor level 0 you 100% deserve it

it should be hard to get out of so people might wake up and realize they shouldn't be toxic its not difficult to not be toxic like I said just be a decent human being and you can get honor 5

FixHealsRemoveGW2/12/2019, 11:22:22 AM2 votes

As deplorable as some of the behavior is that currently earns a drop to honor 0

It's actually not that deplorable. You just need to tell your team that ignored all your pings and never worked with you that you don't like their style and that they ruined the game for you aka the truth they can't handle and you will get /all report blah blah toxic from them, then they refuse to surrender and the match becomes a needlessly long shitshow where you make a few more sarcastic comments, while you still try your best and your team just keeps failing at basic teamwork because they are too busy shit talking you. It's especially crazy when you are solo in team with 4 premades. That's enough to get you to honor level 0. Just need to be unlucky enough to get enough matches like that and then you are automatically treated like somebody who makes sex jokes about somebodies mom and types racist nonsense to trigger people while not even playing the game properly.

It's really funny how the honor system works. Reports are often used by salty assholes who want to have the last word while they are not better themselves and probably tried to actively troll you in the game. People who immediatly go "report this and that" in all chat as soon as somebody so much as disagrees or criticizes them.

Jo0o2/13/2019, 12:04:23 AM2 votes

Alright Rioters, we're 150+ upvotes in. I'm not so naive to think that one forum thread can spearhead comprehensive overhaul, but clearly these ideas are quite popular. Are we missing anything from behind the curtain that would make them unworkable? Are similar ideas being considered? Do you have any input for us? Tantram, anybody?

galsaskaitoituri2/10/2019, 11:31:08 AM1 votes

Hi. I'm wondering why this game is do damn punishing?? I can't leave the match, I can't be AFK, I can't play bad in CASUAL otherwise I get banned wtf ?? And why if i waited 20 min for ban to end i accidentally pressed decline I HAVE TO WAIT 20 MIN AGAIN RIGHT FROM THE START.

Ferrymąn2/10/2019, 11:54:47 PM1 votes

Honor should be removed overall. Bought skins for my Team and Carryed them through the first 15min = no honor

Barcid2/11/2019, 7:41:56 PM1 votes

You're good hearted, I'm sure. Your ideas aren't unreasonable. Whether they go far enough or not, however, is a debate. To go off the "prison sentence for a game of League" comparison, that's the thing about punishment systems - is you're going to get feedback from those who have literally never had to deal with the system as well as those that have had to go through it, and groan and roll your eyes as you may, it's usually not just a good vs. bad issue.

Also, as anybody with a freshman understanding of psychology could tell you, positive reinforcement is open to corruption as much as negative reinforcement - "bribes" come to mind. If you've ever dealt with younger kids, you'll find they'll try to exploit bribery to the fullest extent possible, and trust me when I say that many adults are no different. Not saying that it will be an issue in small doses, but... be careful about the extent.