Boards›Player Behavior

You know, if you want "toxicity" to go away...

Niyumi··2 votes·947 views

Then stop making such a big deal about it. Hell, I'd never even heard the term "toxicity" outside of scientific context until I started playing League, and I've been playing online games since Diablo 2 and Runescape were big.

But, as long as the community (and Riot) makes such a big deal about "toxicity" (which, by the way, is actually very, very, VERY common behavior in many competitive settings, even some professional ones, to the point I wouldn't use a word with negative connotations like "toxic"), it's never going to get better. The more negative attention that surrounds the whole thing, the more attention-starved kids are goinna freak out about it. And I'm not just talking about the people being punished, I'm also talking about the people who act all holier-than-thou about people who get banned / chat restricted, and join Tantrum with "smiting" people like an asshat. They become hyper sensitive and spur on the trolls when they freak out about chat or something, and it just creates a big loop.

So, you wanna fix the whole "toxicity" issue?

Step 1: Fire Tantrum. Smug asshats like that are not going to make a single player behave better. All he'll do is create more issues.

Step 2: If a player is chat restricted in the game, or banned, do not allow them to post on the forums. If you can't do that, then just delete any post with people complaining about being banned (unless it has a good reason to stay up).

Step 3: Rework the escalating punishment system. Make the punishments painful from the start, but not too harsh, and make them relevant to their offense. Someone is trolling or feeding? Put them in a 20 minute queue for the next few days. Someone is being an asshat in chat? Just keep the current chat restriction system. Someone is scripting or boosting? Just ban them outright. Don't be lazy and say you can't track things, because you absolutely can and have shown you can on multiple occasions.

Step 4: Stop talking about toxicity. Don't give it any attention or thought, and just let the system quietly do its job. Also delete player posts talking about toxicity.

Step 5: If reform is actually your goal, then hire people to talk to people who are repeatedly being punished (according to you it's a VERY small number, so you can't say you don't have enough people) and try to help them with their issues instead of just outright banning them, then having them make a new account and becoming even more of an asshat.

Been playing MMOs for many years now, and I've never seen a community so entirely asinine as League's is. But that's because both the community and Riot encourage it.

So, if you actually care about the whole toxicity issue that's been bubbling up a lot, do something about it. But then, I don't really believe you do care, since banning someone means they have to re-buy skins and all that. You're certainly welcome to prove me wrong though.

31 Comments

Chermorg5 votes

  1. Tantram doesn't create issues. All he does is tell the rest of the boards when people are lying.

  2. I can agree with this, but some people legitimately don't understand why they got banned and need help pointing it out.

  3. You literally just described the current system. Chat punishments go 10 game CR (restriction), 25 game CR, 14 day ban, then permanent ban. Gameplay offenses (trolling/intentional feeding/etc) start from 14 day ban. Scripting/third party programs start with permanent ban.

  4. Trying to push something under the rug doesn't do anything to stop it. Sexual assault is a very good example. For the longest time it wasn't talked about. It wasn't understood. Now that it's talked about and mandatory training at many universities, the incidences of college-age sexual violence have gone down dramatically.

  5. It isn't Riot's job to babysit people into being in compliance with the Terms of Service. If you are caught with an illegal controlled substance, you may get a warning the first time (like a fine, and avoid prison time). But if you keep doing it, you get escalating prison sentences. You don't get anyone coddling you and watching what you do such as "oh Johnny careful that's an illegal substance" or anything. People are expected to have self control and the maturity to improve their own behavior. It's not Riot's job to coddle people.

Niyumi2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Tantram doesn't create issues. All he does is tell the rest of the boards when people are lying.

Tantrum's attitude is what causes issues. And then other players emulate him and create more issues.

  1. I can agree with this, but some people legitimately don't understand why they got banned and need help pointing it out.

Direct them to the Discord server / support tickets.

  1. Trying to push something under the rug doesn't do anything to stop it. Sexual assault is a very good example. For the longest time it wasn't talked about. It wasn't understood. Now that it's talked about and mandatory training at many universities, the incidences of college-age sexual violence have gone down dramatically.

We're not talking about sexual assault. We're talking about trolls feeding off of negative attention and continuing to troll to get more of it. You cut off the attention, they lose the reason they troll.

  1. It's not Riot's job to coddle people.

Riot does coddle people though. Tantrum's JOB is to coddle the SJWs, thin-skinned brats and the people who emulate him.

Chermorg3 votes

Anyone who thinks people who just want a game without flaming are "SJW"s doesn't deserve a response.

Keep in mind most casual players couldn't give a fuck whether they win or lose. They want to have a fun game without flaming.

Niyumi1 votes

Oh I didn't just mention SJWs though. Also pointed out thin-skinned brats (most of the community) and people who try to act all holier than thou like Tantrum.

Keep in mind, most people don't give a damn about "flaming." They just mute the person and move on. It's only the obsessive brats that make an issue out of it.

Dragfin1 votes

{quoted}

Anyone who thinks people who just want a game without flaming are "SJW"s doesn't deserve a response.

Keep in mind most casual players couldn't give a fuck whether they win or lose. They want to have a fun game without flaming.

And more times then not, that fun is outside the scope of what the game is, a competition. Why are those trying to win vilified by those wanting "to have fun", yet the apathetic attitude brought by the casual player isn't? There are two sides but the side that plays the game as is, always turns out to be the bad guy by the plethora of useless apathetic casuals.

Chermorg2 votes

Because this is a casual game with a competitive aspect.

Not a competitive game with a casual aspect.

Dragfin1 votes

{quoted}

Because this is a casual game with a competitive aspect.

Not a competitive game with a casual aspect.

Who from RIOT said that and where do you find it? I am very interested in reading it although I don't believe it exists. It very much sounds like something dreamt up by a casual player which would lead me back to my original question.

Subdue5 votes

Guy with no understanding of the difference between LoL and an MMO trying to lecture Riot. Classic.

Niyumi1 votes

Thousands of simultaneous players, much lower "toxicity" -- there's a reason for that.

Chermorg2 votes

There are so many differences between League and Runescape for example.

Niyumi1 votes

Point still stands. Thousands of simultaneous players, much less "toxicity".

Mobile Phone1 votes

Why are you so ignorant about the community difference of RS and league lol. Like you admitted that competitive games are more toxic, but still try to compare a game that has barely any competitive thought to a game that is almost nothing but competitive? Some points you made either don't make sense at all or will just not work either.

second step sure i guess? I don't care if they post about their ban stuff so go ahead with that. I see what you want with the third step, but that was is a garbage punishment. Putting that on someone who had a bad game and fed isn't really smart either. How would that fourth step be helpful in any way? that would literally make things even worse. Like i would actually like to see a reason to stay quiet about toxicity and an example of that working, like someone is trolling or inting because of something that happened in the match not because of the developers lmao. Step five is never going to happen because the number of people that keeps getting punished is small compared to the amount of players that don't...Riot would waste so much money on that. Hire people to ask why someone keeps flaming? Giving a little talk to a player wouldn't do anything, that player needs to go to counseling unless you want riot to counsel just one person for weeks in hopes that they change. Wouldnt make a difference tho since their account is already banned haha.

I hope you're arguing against every game that is based around competitive play and has toxic players.

Niyumi1 votes

Almost every MMO out there has competitive PvP (some even have esports tournaments for it). And people get really into raiding as well. Still far less "toxic" than this game, because people don't make a huge deal out of it, and just ignore / blacklist / mute people they don't want to hear instead of obsessing over it.

And hey, let's look at Overwatch, which is purely competitive. Still less "toxic" than here.

Thing is, when trolls get attention, they keep trolling. When you ignore trolls, they go somewhere else.

Mobile Phone1 votes

Lmao almost every single one of my overwatch games has someone being toxic. The only reason why people would say overwatch isnt as toxic is because it hasnt been out for nearly as long. That game is in the same position as league for player behavior and toxicity. only thing is i haven't seen people get punished on overwatch nearly as much even though people flame alot. Pretty sure it would be even worse if it was free like league. But hey atleast runescape has a better community than overwatch right?

Every game that has pvp will always have some kind of tournament lol. I never said there was no competitive pvp in mmos but other than like the very top, mmo players agree that there is no big or real competitive scene among the community. Raiding isnt even pvp, so idk why you brought that up. That just even further shows that the players have better and funner things to do that isnt competitive in mmos. Im totally gonna flame someone because im doing a quest and farming. mmos are far less toxic because people who do pvp competitively in it is just a fraction of everyone else lol.

About the trolls topic, riot isnt the reason someone starts trolling all of a sudden in a match lol.

Subdue2 votes

{quoted}

Almost every MMO out there has competitive PvP (some even have esports tournaments for it). And people get really into raiding as well. Still far less "toxic" than this game, because people don't make a huge deal out of it, and just ignore / blacklist / mute people they don't want to hear instead of obsessing over it.

And hey, let's look at Overwatch, which is purely competitive. Still less "toxic" than here.

Thing is, when trolls get attention, they keep trolling. When you ignore trolls, they go somewhere else.

Sorry, which MMO has as its primary mechanism for matchmaking the formation of pickup teams of strangers who are bound together for periods of 20-40 minutes at a time?

Last I checked, for most MMOs the teams are pre-determined, as are raids, and groups can kick people out that they don't want. This you can liken more to premade 5s in LoL, which have near zero toxicity.

Have some common sense dude.

Douglas Funnie3 votes

To reduce the amount of verbal toxicity, Riot needs to focus on the root cause: Trolls/feeders/afkers/etc. Once Riot understand this, League's community will be at a healthier state, believe me.

Players have complete control over verbal based Toxicity with the mute function. Players, however, do not have control over other players actions during champ select/in-game.

Niyumi1 votes

People need to just not make a big deal over chat. It's silly, vain, and honestly just pathetic.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Douglas Funnie,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=k0Q5Mlpn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-08-13T23:57:04.274+0000)

To reduce the amount of verbal toxicity, Riot needs to focus on the root cause: Trolls/feeders/afkers/etc. Once Riot understand this, League's community will be at a healthier state, believe me.

Players have complete control over verbal based Toxicity with the mute function. Players, however, do not have control over other players actions during champ select/in-game.

Yes, and this is the bigger problem that needs to be tackled. right now the current system is a chat witch hunt. trolls/afkers/insta-lockers etc don't receive punishment fast enough or often enough to deter the behavior

I suggest that if you get reported for trolling even once and its found legitimate, immediate 1 day suspension from rank and low priority queue for your other games. If you come back and are found trolling, steal roles, raging again then its a 2 day ban from all modes. Come back and troll again goodbye account.

But this, or any other version would need to be FAST. They key is to punish the behavior as soon as it happens, or else what the hell are you deterring? If you give immature people who dgaf a window to gamble with, they'll keep gambling until stopped. THEN all they have to do is make a new account, and they'll keep doing because the account will survive a large X amount of games before anyone does anything again. Its pretty stupid that if you open your mouth 3 games in a row you might get punished but if you dive tower 0 20 0 you can go 15 games or more before you're stopped.

ModPeriscope2 votes

When players come on here and either lie or are inaccurate when describing their punishment history, I feel it is informative for Tantram to correct that player's incorrect post.

Niyumi1 votes

When players come in here and lie or are inaccurate, it isn't proper for someone preaching how we should be nice to each other to come in and be an asshat with a smug little attitude and a posse of bullies to back him up.

At most, he should just delete their post. But that's not how an SJW behaves, is it? Gotta throw a tantrum and make people notice.

ModPeriscope2 votes

I disagree with a player spreading misinformation. There's plenty of posts that are titled with "I was permabanned for no reason". People shouldn't be afraid to play this game based on some troll's lie.

I have no idea where you got SJW from.

Niyumi1 votes

So delete their post. No reason to go on a rant about how to properly behave while not following anything you say.

FurriesAreHot2 votes

Then the community would be up in arms "RIOT CENSORSHIP WTF????"

ModPeriscope2 votes

Indeed, those posts are for clarity in why players are punished. The community is what made the rules, and Riot enforces them. So punished players should come to the source: players made the rules, and a player reported the offender.

Players should be given every opportunity to reform, and shouldn't be discouraged from posting here.

Drugoth2 votes

Opening your suggestions with firing a key staff member may not have been a good idea...

EvilDustMan1 votes

HotS had a ridiculous community shortly after the start. I might put up with it in a game that is mostly solo. But in a team game? Where it is tense and my teammates won't shut up about every mistake?

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Toxicity will never go away. Lyte was delusional to think that it was possible. Its something Riot needs to realize will always exist, especially in a game where you are punished because of your teammates mistakes.

Squidwards House1 votes

runescape used to be big? LOOOL

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Regarding Tantram, most people he "smites" plead innocent despite being guilty as fuck.

ModPrandine1 votes

Step 1: Fire Tantrum. Smug asshats like that are not going to make a single player behave better. All he'll do is create more issues.

I fail to see how Tantram is a problem here. When he does post here it's usually to help clear up confusion and/or call out people who are consciously lying about something (i.e. their punishment, their chat logs, how the system works, etc.). Yes on his own he may not make much of a difference, but that's why this is a team effort with both Riot and the community as a whole.

Step 2: If a player is chat restricted in the game, or banned, do not allow them to post on the forums. If you can't do that, then just delete any post with people complaining about being banned (unless it has a good reason to stay up).

I can understand your reasoning for not wanting punished people to post on the boards, but allot of times when people post about their punishments they do it out of confusion as to what they did to get it in the first place. Now obviously some are more clear about wanting advice than others are but by letting them post they can potentially get the help that they need to fix whatever issues they have with their account and/or behavior.

Also, though it's fairly uncommon posts and threads are deleted if the poster is only interested in insulting everyone and everything rather than having an actual discussion about a topic.

Step 3: Rework the escalating punishment system. Make the punishments painful from the start, but not too harsh, and make them relevant to their offense. Someone is trolling or feeding? Put them in a 20 minute queue for the next few days. Someone is being an asshat in chat? Just keep the current chat restriction system. Someone is scripting or boosting? Just ban them outright. Don't be lazy and say you can't track things, because you absolutely can and have shown you can on multiple occasions.

That's actually how the current system works. Chat related offenses start with a 10-game chat restriction and escalate to a 25-game restriction before moving to game time bans. Gameplay related offenses start with a 2-week ban followed by a permaban if their behavior doesn't change. There's two main reasons as to why chat-based offenses are the common post here:

  1. They're more common and are easier to track compared to gameplay-related offenses.
  2. Usually the people punished for things like trolling and intentional feeding know what they were punished for and thus have no reason to come to the boards to complain about it.

Step 4: Stop talking about toxicity. Don't give it any attention or thought, and just let the system quietly do its job. Also delete player posts talking about toxicity.

If it doesn't get talked about then how can we implement improvements to it and the systems that reward players for good behavior? Sweeping it under the rug would change nothing and it's because it's talked about that we even have today's systems in place.

Step 5: If reform is actually your goal, then hire people to talk to people who are repeatedly being punished (according to you it's a VERY small number, so you can't say you don't have enough people) and try to help them with their issues instead of just outright banning them, then having them make a new account and becoming even more of an asshat.

Under normal circumstances people are given 2-4 chances to change their behavior for the better before their account gets permabanned. By coming to the boards to discuss their punishments and the punishment system players can get insight as to what is considered the wrong way to handle certain situations and what they can do in the future to handle them better if/when they pop up again. That being said though however, it is up to the player to be willing to listen to criticism, be open to change and not lash out at everyone trying to help them out or try to intentionally mislead people by acting their behavior was tamer than it actually was, and it's also up to the people trying to help them to not immediately bite the posters head off once they post.

hexarte1 votes

I'm sorry you feel this way, but toxicity is actually slang for CYBER HARASSMENT. A very real crime, punishable by law with a hefty fine and jail time. And that doesn't even include court charges. If you do end up with bail that's another fee you end up paying for on top of the fine, and court charges. That's a lot of money. A lot of time and a huge headache.

And then factor in that suicide is rising higher in younger generations, your very words could be the trigger for someone ending their life. And in some states, most notably New York, depending on the form of language you used and time of decease and the time you typed it out, that could mean 15 years to life in prison.

This is a very serious topic, telling someone to "go kill yourself" is a crime, and do you really want that on your conscience?

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