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On verbal defense.

Zero Shingetsu··2 votes·549 views

Within reason, one should not be banned for defending oneself or a teammate. Now I've never been banned myself, but a bunch of recent posts got me thinking about how I have been warned several times about verbal abuse reports after stepping up to go full Zhuge Liang on some immature brat who trashed me or a teammate excessively.

Never swearing. Never threatening. Never calling into question a person's loved ones or personal life. No, what I do are simple but effective things such as pointing out the frailty of one's insults, addressing one in such flavorful language as "cur" or "brigand", or reminding one that perhaps not everyone is so hopelessly self-absorbed as to believe the failings of a stranger in a video game deserve literal threats because they affect said person negatively.

Video games never call for threats, they don't call for literal curses, they don't call for wishing a person or his family ill. But if someone rips into my ADC for a couple of missed opportunities and I demand they stable their high horse, or I meet "uninstall and never play again" with "If anyone should uninstall, it's the man spewing the utterly venomous nonsense above"... Even if someone is provoking my team with taunts and I respond by calling his eloquence or the substance of his character into question. Those things should never be worthy of a ban.

If I ever get banned for these things, so be it. I'll leave the game with my dignity before I let some fool child walk on me or my teammates. And if anyone has been banned for simply defending oneself or one's team, I suggest you maintain your pride as well. What we do in the game is inconsequential. What we say in the game is real interaction, which can over time have real effects on the way we perceive ourselves and others. Never compromise your pride for the chance to engage in the paltry amusements of a mere game.

33 Comments

AraMoOse5 votes

You are not defending yourself, you are counter attacking. Defending yourself is pressing the mute button. Protect others is the report function.

ShinkoMinori2 votes

a counter attack is a form of defense.

AraMoOse3 votes

{quoted}

a counter attack is a form of defense.

incorrect, it is a form of attack. Which is the opposite of defense.

ShinkoMinori1 votes

Can't find the exact link, but from my chess lessons I know an attack is the best defense.

AraMoOse2 votes

{quoted}

Can't find the exact link, but from my chess lessons I know an attack is the best defense.

Yes, this is a well known saying in many competitive endeavours. OP even provides a really cool way to say it a few posts down.

The key thing you (and OP) are doing is conflating the Action of defense with the purpose of defense. A counter attack is an attack which has as its purpose to defend yourself. What I have been saying is that you must use defenses which do not include an attack.

We are not arguing whether or not it's effective, but whether it is right. Riot says it is not. And I agree. Instead of perpetuating the cycle, you break it by muting them.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

incorrect, it is a form of attack. Which is the opposite of defense.

Incorrect. "Besiege Wei to rescue Zhao." This is a tactic used throughout history to defend territory under assault by a stronger foe by making a play for something they must withdraw to defend. Counter attacking in speech is no different, unless you start maliciously berating the other side with the same aim they had for you.

Problem: This guy is making his support feel like garbage, and it's hurting his performance. Solution: Call the man's own efficacy into question, and he'll start citing all the reasons he's amazing. He's not trashing your support anymore.

You defend the support by attacking the attacker.

AraMoOse2 votes

{quoted}

Incorrect. "Besiege Wei to rescue Zhao." This is a tactic used throughout history to defend territory under assault by a stronger foe by making a play for something they must withdraw to defend. Counter attacking in speech is no different, unless you start maliciously berating the other side with the same aim they had for you.

Problem: This guy is making his support feel like garbage, and it's hurting his performance. Solution: Call the man's own efficacy into question, and he'll start citing all the reasons he's amazing. He's not trashing your support anymore.

You defend the support by attacking the attacker.

Yes, it serves as a defensive function. It is nevertheless an attack, as you've said yourself in the last sentences. Muting is all you need to do.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, it serves as a defensive function. It is nevertheless an attack, as you've said yourself in the last sentences. Muting is all you need to do.

You rise or fall as a team. If I mute him but the rest of my team doesn't, who's to say his wrath doesn't shift to them shortly enough? In my experience, the amount of people too lazy or otherwise engaged to mute is immensely higher than those who mute, even when reminded to do so. Better to get him jawing about something unrelated now, rather than let his toxicity spread to the rest of the team later.

AraMoOse1 votes

{quoted}

You rise or fall as a team. If I mute him but the rest of my team doesn't, who's to say his wrath doesn't shift to them shortly enough? In my experience, the amount of people too lazy or otherwise engaged to mute is immensely higher than those who mute, even when reminded to do so. Better to get him jawing about something unrelated now, rather than let his toxicity spread to the rest of the team later.

I invite you to refer to my response to shinko minori.

ShinkoMinori1 votes

I like you now. That was really smart

GaleWinUnleashed6 votes

Yes and no. It is an offensive manuever which is designed to put the opponent off-balance, thereby forcing them to go on the defensive and giving you a respite from what might have been a continuous assault.

A perfect counter-attack is one that outright kills your opponent, which (ethics aside) is the best possible outcome as far as your immediate defense is concerned. The problem with attempting a counter-attack against a toxic player in League is that you CANNOT defeat your opponent; you cannot even wound them and reduce their ability to fight. All you can possibly accomplish by counter-attacking is to aggravate them further.

Since your opponent is more or less invincible, the best strategy is to put up an impenetrable defense so as to hold out until an opportunity arises to actually defeat them. In other words, mute them and wait for the game to be over, at which point you gain the ability to report them.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

ShinkoMinori1 votes

I many times made a toxic opponent go afk by hitting in the right spots. Or a toxic opponent to get tilted enough so I win the game.

When it comes from a teammate I agree that you rather mute him coz you still need him to win the game.

Also I missed you.

scazzman2 votes

{quoted}

I many times made a toxic opponent go afk by hitting in the right spots. Or a toxic opponent to get tilted enough so I win the game.

When it comes from a teammate I agree that you rather mute him coz you still need him to win the game.

Also I missed you.

this is the real problem with the current system.with people like shinko who are manipulative enough to find the right buttons to push to make someone react negatively and let's face it. everyone has buttons. there is very little people can do to stop them. and flamebaiters have 5-7 minutes in pregame lobby where you can't even mute. so they rile you up before you get a chance to mute. if a troll truly wants you to react to them. there's very little you can do if theyre good enough at it

ShinkoMinori1 votes

Don't be jelly coz I am smart enough to use my opponents weakness for my own benefit.

DrCyanide3 votes

I don't find myself jealous of those who take the moral low ground. It's a game, not war, we can follow a code of conduct.

ShinkoMinori1 votes

I have the moral ground, I don't break any rules by pushing the right buttons without being considered toxic myself. Wars also have a rules btw.

scazzman1 votes

{quoted}

I have the moral ground, I don't break any rules by pushing the right buttons without being considered toxic myself. Wars also have a rules btw.

actually. Antagonizing and baiting toxicity is regarded as one of the worst behaviors in league. Along with feeding intentionally and hate speech the only reason you haven't been punished is because its difficult to identify

ShinkoMinori1 votes

Worst behavior according to you, quote where riot says that. Its part of the game.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

It doesn't have to be part of the game, and everyone would be better off if it wasn't. There's a difference between good-natured trash-talk and what you've described.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

scazzman1 votes

{quoted}

I many times made a toxic opponent go afk by hitting in the right spots. Or a toxic opponent to get tilted enough so I win the game.

When it comes from a teammate I agree that you rather mute him coz you still need him to win the game.

Also I missed you.

by the way. thank you for reporting yourself

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

You are not defending yourself, you are counter attacking. Defending yourself is pressing the mute button. Protect others is the report function.

Reports often don't work, and if they do, it's after the fact. Your teammates still go through the game, and leave it, feeling like garbage. As for the rest, think of it this way: The mute button is basically ignoring someone. If a co-worker starts berating you unfairly, do you just sit there and let him yell in your ear without saying a word? If you do, you could probably stand to change your stance.

Fact: To refute is a defensive action in a debate, and to provoke is a supplementary action meant to take the wind out of the opponent's argument. If the goal is to get the man to stop ripping into you or your team, a clever insult can often do the trick. Nothing too malicious, of course. Just enough to make him stop threatening people and start yelling aimlessly about what you just called him.

EvilDustMan3 votes

You can quote Korean proverbs all you want, but the fact of the matter is, this isn't war. Different goals, different methods. This isn't a debate.

The best method is to try and defuse the situation. If you can't, mute and report.

If you want to continue your debate analogy, by starting a debate, you are encouraging the flamer to continue to prove they are right. The key is to avoid the debate altogether and get back to the game, not "win" the debate.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

You can quote Korean proverbs all you want, but the fact of the matter is, this isn't war. Different goals, different methods. This isn't a debate.

The best method is to try and defuse the situation. If you can't, mute and report.

If you want to continue your debate analogy, by starting a debate, you are encouraging the flamer to continue to prove they are right. The key is to avoid the debate altogether and get back to the game, not "win" the debate.

*Chinese

Fair enough, but I only employ these methods against those who have incessantly abused the team after being asked politely two or three times to knock it off and return to the game. There are a lot of people like that.

EvilDustMan3 votes

{quoted}

*Chinese

Fair enough, but I only employ these methods against those who have incessantly abused the team after being asked politely two or three times to knock it off and return to the game. There are a lot of people like that.

If you can't defuse the situation, attempting a debate is only going to make things worse. You are in the middle of a game, pulling energy away from that to focus on insulting and increasing tension pulls focus away from the game on all sides, and, in all likelihood, only increases tension.

Thus, all you are really doing is making the game worse.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

If you can't defuse the situation, attempting a debate is only going to make things worse. You are in the middle of a game, pulling energy away from that to focus on insulting and increasing tension pulls focus away from the game on all sides, and, in all likelihood, only increases tension.

Thus, all you are really doing is making the game worse.

I think Twelveswood Ayame said it best:

"Kweh."

EvilDustMan3 votes

{quoted}

I think Twelveswood Ayame said it best:

"Kweh."

I acknowledge your surrender.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

I acknowledge your surrender.

Either that's an incorrect assumption, or you're fluent in Chocobo.

DeathBurst2 votes

Being warned about being reported doesn't mean that the report will be considered valid if the game is ever reviewed.

If you're really "Never swearing. Never threatening. Never calling into question a person's loved ones or personal life" then you have nothing to fear from being reported by a toxic player that you put back in his place.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Being warned about being reported doesn't mean that the report will be considered valid if the game is ever reviewed.

If you're really "Never swearing. Never threatening. Never calling into question a person's loved ones or personal life" then you have nothing to fear from being reported by a toxic player that you put back in his place.

That would explain why I've been warned about reports several times, but never actually punished for anything. Good to know!

Xidphel2 votes

You use "verbal defense", you open yourself for a report. You mute, you don't open yourself. Use the latter.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

You use "verbal defense", you open yourself for a report. You mute, you don't open yourself. Use the latter.

Your counsel is noted, and not unwise. It's simply not the method I would suggest. Though if one isn't comfortable with contentious discussion, I'd definitely recommend muting instead. My method certainly isn't for all types. It takes a delicate vernacular to strike without wounding and sting without venom.

Oleandervine1 votes

Flamers would actually br entertaining if they used Victorian era insults and vernacular and I would never feel a need to report anyone if everyone accused each other of being curs or brigands. Make this a thing.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Flamers would actually br entertaining if they used Victorian era insults and vernacular and I would never feel a need to report anyone if everyone accused each other of being curs or brigands. Make this a thing.

Haha! When I feel trolly, I actually don't troll the game, but rather I troll verbally. I'll go into a game with this exact form of speech in mind, and will use it in every form of chat no matter the situation. Including when people start slinging mud. Those are some entertaining chat logs, let me tell you.

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