Boards›Player Behavior

Calling Riot Tantram, please respond

Chønklord··6 votes·2,243 views

Edit: for those needing more clarity on this post, please go to https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/fwsZB15t-calling-riot-tantram-please-respond?comment=0001000000000001 for the relevant context  

 

##@Riot Tantram: I would appreciate if you could shed some clarity on my confusion (and the confusion a lot of players on the boards here are having) in regard to 'report calling / lobbying for reports'.

As a reply to a comment you made re: report calling, and a follow-up to a question from another poster:

sixdogman (NA) Also a single 'report xx' isn't punishable sure, but if someone does it constantly?

What if you genuinely believe a player is doing something wrong (int feeding, etc), and feel you need to report them in your game. Now let's say you do this on a regular, continual basis; not with any intent of malice or purposeful harassment or any other negative, toxic chat involved -- you simply feel that "justice must be served" by reporting 'wrongdoers'.

Maybe out of 20 games a week, you've reported at least one person in 10 of those games. That's 10 reports a week.

Let's say 50% are false reports and the other half are accurate. The IFS takes the false ones and throws them out (because you say the system is 'very good' at filtering out BS reports); the other ones get pushed through the system as legitimate reports. So now approximately 5 false reports a week are being filed.

Where in this scenario does the system kick in and punish our 'good intentioned' reporter? Is there a limit to the number of reports? Does it punish them at all?

Report calling by itself isn't punishable Riot says, unless it's used as a tool for harassment and/or supplemented with other forms of 'real' harassment.

Riot NaKyle (NA) submitted a day ago If a player used asking for reports as a leaping off point for actual harassment, that's when we'd blow the whistle.

and what you just said in this thread:

Riot Tantram (NA) - about 8 hours ago [. . .] But, asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment [. . .]

Also, you've previously stated that a player's report 'weight' does not lose value based on the number of reports they make.

Riot Tantram (NA) 2 days ago Confirmed. Reports do not lose value based upon the number of times you report players.

and

Riot Tantram (NA) about a month ago [. . .] As long as you are making a valid report, it counts. Your reports don't stop being factored in if they don't punish a player.

Where is the accountability in your algorithms for players that lobby reports on others based on a false sense of justice and good intentions -- and sure, may actually catch some 'bad apples' -- but also unintentionally falsely report innocent players on a continunal basis? Are these players then considered 'toxic' and worthy of punishment for 'report calling abuse' or not? Since you've stated a player's reports never lose value (based on the rule 'if report > 0 then flag account'), _every 'report call' made by this well-intentioned player will be counted, and multiplied over the course of dozens of games or more.

You say the system recognizes the validity of incoming reports against the reportee, but how does it handle the (in)validity of well intentioned, but misguided ones by the reporter (in terms of penalties)? Where is the break-point? How many unintentional false reports is too many?

35 Comments

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Riot Tantram has expanded on the topic here

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=1NGnychF,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-29T21:04:59.627+0000)

That post can be a little confusing.

The post was made to address confusion players had, thinking that asking for reports was akin to hate speech / zero tolerance and directly resulted in a ban. This is not true. But, asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment. A single 'report xx' isn't going to cause a penalty. But calling someone a feeder for having a poor game, telling people to report them for int'ing, etc .. is all going to be considered negative.

Riot doesn't define what is acceptable/unacceptable. It is the player base that decides that. Our systems learn from our players. Just like how players taught the system that GGEZ is pretty BM, players also taught the system that 'report xxx for int'ing' when they are not, is also negative.

I admit that the recent post was rather confusing.

Chønklord2 votes

#Edited to remove my bad attitude

~~[zombie-brand-facepalm] ~~

Sweet lord almighty. Do any of you ever read?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/fwsZB15t-calling-riot-tantram-please-respond?comment=0000000000000000000000010000

I know what Tantram said; I'm referencing that exact comment of his and asking for further clarification on some specific issues with what he said.

elduris4 votes

I'm not sure what needs more clarification at this point. If you call for reports against someone and use that as a way to harass a player, that's not acceptable. If all you do is say "report x" and then drop it and don't let it escalate into an argument, that's fine.

"False reports" aren't ignored by IFS (according to the last messaging from Riot, all reports are considered valid). Report weight is also no longer a factor. But, there doesn't need to be accountability for people who "false report" a lot because nothing comes of it. Reports trigger a review by IFS, if the player is found to have poor behavior, action is taken, if not, no action is taken. If no action is taken, what are we punishing the "false reporter" for?

Limmie4 votes

If all you do is say "report x" and then drop it and don't let it escalate into an argument, that's fine

But it shouldn't be fine at all. "If you call for reports against someone and use that as a way to harass a player" doesn't make sense because it can only used to harass somebody, there's not a single case in which "report X" is not harassment. Honestly, to me that's the same as "If all you do is say "X is a retard" and then drop it and don't let it escalate into an argument, that's fine". No, that's not fine, that will never be fine.

elduris2 votes

Saying "X is a retard" is a far cry from "please report X" and honestly a very bad example to prove your point. If you're truly unable to see a difference here, let me try to differentiate the two scenarios for you.

Calling someone names, be it "retard" or anything else inflammatory, is directly an attack on that person. There's no other way to interpret it, though I know some people who would try to use old, outdated etymology of words to try to justify it. Asking your team to report a certain player, by itself, is in no way an attack on that person. Only when you get into arguments does it become a problem.

Think of it this way, if someone says "Report Elduris pls" I might be disappointed that you think I'm not playing seriously, but you can report me for whatever you want. Reporting is acceptable behavior. As long as I'm not doing anything wrong, I know it won't matter. And yes, I have been reported for silly things in the past, never banned, never chat restricted, don't think I've even gotten a warning.

But, if someone says "Elduris is a retard" I know that calling people names and trying to incite an argument like that is unacceptable behavior. I'm still not going to respond to them but I will be sure to report them at the end of the game for raging.

There's never a situation in which it's OK to call someone a retard, which is not the case so much for asking your team to report someone. If someone was raging in chat for the first 10 minutes and I muted them and told my team to report them, but otherwise played the game without interacting with the troll, I'd be super pissed if I got banned for that. And I think a lot of other people would too. The point is that simply saying "report X" is not the same as simply saying "X is a retard" or "X is a %%%got" or whatever other word you can think of. Different words have different weight and we can't treat them all the same.

Limmie2 votes

Saying "X is a retard" is a far cry from "please report X"

If anything, it's because please report x is worse. If somebody calls you a retard, it's offensive, yeah, but it dies there. What can you say to that? "No I'm not a retard"? "Please report X" on the other hand leads to the person being attacked to try to argue to prove they're not doing anything wrong if only to make sure nobody else actually reports them so that the reports don't pile up. It's a threat that's actually tangible of using the system to potentially lock you out of your account*, and they'll put trying to make sure that doesn't happen on a higher priority than continuing the match, even if they would be ready to let a straight up insult slide. Muting somebody who's calling you a retard doesn't change anything, but many people would (and do) feel that muting somebody who's spinning a narrative about you to make others report you is dangerous. I'm not making this up from thin air by the way, I've witnessed it more times than I can count, people spending ages trying to prove that they are innocent because they sincerely fear they'll get banned if too many people are convinced to report them.

I'm not arguing here how offensive it is BTW, if that was the case then yeah retard is worse. I'm arguing how damaging it is to the game as a whole. Nakayle said: "we think about solving problems that really distract you from what matters: Winning the game", and by that standard calling for reports ranks far worse than outright insults. One person being insulted detracts far, far less than having that person argue and try to prove that they shouldn't in fact be reported.

Reporting is acceptable behavior, yeah, but calling for them should never, EVER, be so.

*The fact that false reports can actually lead to punishments or not is irrelevant here, what matters is how people perceive it. The vast majority believe that false reports, and multiple reports, can actually lead to punishment, and that's all that matters.

Chønklord3 votes

The fact that false reports can actually lead to punishments or not is irrelevant here, what matters is how people perceive it. The vast majority believe that false reports, and multiple reports, can actually lead to punishment, and that's all that matters.

Lead with this. Otherwise yes you are completely right with the entirety of your post.

I would only change it around a bit to be clearer to these knuckleheads on the forums:

The fact that false reports do not lead to a punishment is irrelevant here; what matters is how the general public perceive it. A vast majority believe that multiple reports -- even if they are knowingly (to us on the forums) false -- can actually lead to punishment, and that's all that matters.

elduris1 votes

{quoted}

The fact that false reports can actually lead to punishments or not is irrelevant here, what matters is how people perceive it. The vast majority believe that false reports, and multiple reports, can actually lead to punishment, and that's all that matters.

Facts absolutely do matter. Perception is not the end-all-be-all of anything.

I would argue that saying "asking your team to report a toxic player is behavior that is "never, EVER" acceptable" is generalizing a lot. If you feel harassed, you should report the person who is harassing you. Trying to make a list of "all the unacceptable things to say" or drawing hard lines like this is never going to work because everyone is different and has different opinions and different feelings about things. It is entirely subjective to the person.

Limmie2 votes

Facts absolutely do matter. Perception is not the end-all-be-all of anything

No, because people will act according to their perception, not the objective facts. If I go into a theater with a belt of sausages and say I'm going to blow everybody up, it doesn't matter that sausages aren't dynamite and can't really explode, there will still be mayhem. If we are talking about how things affect games, we must absolutely consider people's misconception's and how those misconceptions affect their behavior. Fact of the matter is, people do think that false report may cause their accounts to get banned, and that multiple reports increases that chances. And because of that, they'll readily react to the threat of a false mass report, just like the people in the theater would react to my sausages.

would argue that saying "asking your team to report a toxic player is behavior that is "never, EVER" acceptable" is generalizing a lot. If you feel harassed, you should report the person who is harassing you

It's not about me, it's about my teammates, and how calls for reports affect them and the game. Maybe insults affect them more, but calls for report affects the game (and therefore, the rest of the team) more. Imagine this:

KAYLE: lucian your a retard LUCIAN: stfu idiot braindead ur muted

YI: Report Yasuo pls YASUO: Why YI: You're 0/12 inting YASUO: Because I was camped and you never showed top YASUO: it's not my fault I was camped YI: You kept overextending that's why you were ganked YASUO: And I was 0/1 before Akali came back 4/0 from botlane YASUO: botlane fed her YASUO: So how I am the one inting JINX: I just followed yi then lulu didn't shield me LULU: I didn't shield you because you were already dead JINX: I had heal YI: /all report Yasuo for feeding pls (now the enemy knows we're in-fighting and exploits this)

Which scenarios do you think affected the chances of winning more? The first one is obviously more toxic, but the second one was waaaay more damaging. They're both actual examples by the way. So yeah, there is indeed never a a situation in which calling for reports is good (I'm of course excluding consensual banter and the like).

Trying to make a list of "all the unacceptable things to say" or drawing hard lines like this is never going to work because everyone is different and has different opinions and different feelings about things. It is entirely subjective to the person.

And yet Riot draws the line at racial and homophobic slurs. They absolutely can and do take hard stances against certain actions and words. This is just another time in which they should do so again.

Chønklord2 votes

Considering this is my post, I would be the last person trying to detract from the topic at hand (and I wholeheartedly agree with your translation of the issue)... but...

just like the people in the theater would react to my sausages.

One could say those sausages are... #DYNO-MITE

[slayer-jinx-wink] [zombie-brand-clap]

(Also... 'sausages', plural? How many you got under there? wink)

Limmie1 votes

None. The sausages are a lie.

Chønklord3 votes

Asking your team to report a certain player, by itself, is in no way an attack on that person.

No, it is a form of harassment because the system only needs one report to work, there is never a justifiable reason to lobbying for reports against someone.

Whether or not the player being lobbied against is or is not offended/feeling harassed is inconsequential -- there are many who do feel harassed, and therefore by its very nature, report calling is harassment.

elduris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=fwsZB15t,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-30T23:18:33.455+0000)

No, it is a form of harassment because the system only needs one report to work, there is never a justifiable reason to lobbying for reports against someone.

But how many do you think know that? You and I know that because we're on boards a lot and pay attention to Riot posts. There are millions of players that don't. Are you proposing banning everyone that ever asks their team to report someone else? Or do you think that we can set a few parameters here and only ban the players that are using threats of reports to harass their team?

Whether or not the player being lobbied against is or is not offended/feeling harassed is inconsequential -- there are many who do feel harassed, and therefore by its very nature, report calling is harassment.

I see what you mean. Just because the target isn't offended, that doesn't make it offensive. Right? Just because that player doesn't feel harassed, that doesn't mean it's not harassment.

I know you want absolutes, but feeling harassed is entirely subjective. Everyone has different things that bother them. Typically though, people who don't feel harassed don't report others for harassment. If you feel like someone is harassing you, report them. There's a report option specifically for that.

Chønklord3 votes

But how many do you think know that? You and I know that because we're on boards a lot and pay attention to Riot posts. There are millions of players that don't. Are you proposing banning everyone that ever asks their team to report someone else?

Just because a player is ignorant of the rules, doesn't give them a free pass to ignorantly break the rules. Just because I don't know saying "wow Ashe, fuck you" is verbal abuse and against League of Legend's specific rules, doesn't mean I get a free pass for breaking those rules.

It's Riot's duty and job to make sure their customers/player base are aware of how their report system functions and the rules/pentalties associated with it -- and thus far they've done a dismal job of it.

And never once did I say Riot should punish "report callers" with a straight to permaban wombo combo. It seems a bit obvious that it should be treated as an infraction and dealt with as such.

Here is where Riot should step it up and beef up their system/knowledge base.

  1. I would recommend for example, a thorough update and overhaul of the Summoner's Code web page to reflect the latest in behavioral rules, maybe spice it up with some example photos, and maybe _just a wee tiny pinch more specificity. And make it more prominent across the game/website at large;

  2. A more extensive reform card that highlights the specific offending words/phrases/actions of the penalized player with hyperlinks to the relevant portion of the Summoner's Code and/or Support Articles that outline said bad behavior;

  3. Clearer and more prominently featured updates from a one specific Riot staff member tasked to manage "community PR" -- somewhere on the main website and possibly a subsection within the game's main screen.

  4. Maybe integrate a menu item called "Community" or "Support" in the game client itself and include all of this information through that menu page.

I see what you mean. Just because the target isn't offended, that doesn't make it offensive. Right? Just because that player doesn't feel harassed, that doesn't mean it's not harassment.

You got it right, here, and then you contradicted yourself:

I know you want absolutes, but feeling harassed is entirely subjective. Everyone has different things that bother them.

Let me re-word/combine your statements:

[. . .] Just because the target's feelings are entirely subjective ~~ isn't offended~~, doesn't make it offensive. Right? Just because everyone has different things that bother them, that player doesn't feel harassed, doesn't mean it's not harassment.

If we are to follow Riot's behavioral rules, the Summoner's Code, and what the community has deemed wrong as a whole, then certain behaviors/actions are harassment which makes those things an absolute -- regardless of anyone one individual's subjective feelings.

If you say "fuck you go die in a fire", maybe I don't care or feel offended, and therefore I don't feel harassed. But according to the rules of the community I am taking part in and agree to abide by, such verbiage is punishable harassment, and therefore you should be punished for it, even if I don't take personal offense or feel harassed by it.

Rules are absolute; an individual's perception of those rules are subjective. Harassment (of all forms) is against the rules. Ergo, harassment is an absolute.

Limmie2 votes

But how many do you think know that? You and I know that because we're on boards a lot and pay attention to Riot posts. There are millions of players that don't

That is precisely why I said it's the perception that matters. When you actually think that false/multiple reports can get you banned, calls for reports are a VERY serious matter and the target will devote a lot of attention and time addressing it. If they are insulted they can just shrug it off and mute, but when somebody is calling for reports and trying to make 9 people report them, it's their very account that's on the line right then. They won't mute the person and risk the guy convincing the other players to report them. They WILL address it.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

But how many do you think know that? You and I know that because we're on boards a lot and pay attention to Riot posts. There are millions of players that don't.

Since that is the case, Riot should make the information more accessible and/or increase awareness of it.

Ignorance of the rules isn't usually a valid excuse.

Chønklord2 votes

 

#But, there doesn't need to be accountability for people who "false report" a lot because nothing comes of it.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

#WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG  

  #First half of the issue, relating to the reporter of 'report calling':

  • Go into a ranked game where someone on your team has a bad game and goes 0-10 on an off-meta pick (for example).

  • Lobby reports against them: "report player X for int feeding / trolling!" in the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • Do this on a continual, regular basis. Every week, in every game where you believe someone to be doing wrong / breaking the Summoner Code. Remember, you're 'serving justice' and just want to see wrongdoers punished.

  • Riot Tantram says: "[. . .] Asking for reports CAN be a way of harassing players. In that case, the system can detect that you are using it as a means of harassment."

  • QUESTION THAT NEEDS CLARIFICATION: Is lobbying for reports on a continual, regular basis considered (albeit unintentional) 'report harassment' by the IFS and subject to punishment?

  • IF YES: Then the system does not understand how to interpret the intention of the person lobbying for reports and could be erroneously punishing innocent players that are, in their mind, 'doing the right thing'.

  • IF NO: Then the system is very intelligent, and has the ability to discern the intent of the report caller. But there is still another half of the equation.

  • Proceed now to the second half of the issue  

 

#Second half of the issue, relating to the reportee of 'report calling' (and why you are wrong):

  • Go into a ranked game with an off-meta pick and have a bad game where you go 0-10 (for example).

  • Someone lobbies reports against you: "report player X for int feeding / trolling!". They say nothing more, nothing less.

  • However, other players (enemy team / your team) agree, and may do some of the following: harass you, start griefing about the game, agree to report you, etc.

  • Have this sort of false reporting happen to you on a continual, regular basis. Every week, in most games that you do poorly in; play off-meta; etc.

  • QUESTION THAT NEEDS CLARIFICATION: If the IFS is intelligent, and no one is being punished for 'report calling' except when followed with verbal abuse in chat, then what is being done to protect the players that are the recipients of false report calling under the reporter's misguided belief of their wrongdoing?

  • CONTEXT: Being 'mass reported / report called upon' when you have done nothing wrong is a shitty feeling; i.e. you are being harassed/'griefed' upon. Because the report system only needs one report to flag a player, lobbying for reports literally serves no valid purpose. Due to this fact, the act of someone lobbying reports and putting everyone's attention on your poor play / whatever, is detracting focus from the goal of the game (winning) and only results in a negative, hostile environment overall. Even if the player is doing something wrong like trolling/int feeding/whatever, calling for reports in that instance almost always ends up in more hostility and negativity from that toxic player or from others. It's a lose/lose situation.

elduris1 votes

I invite you to prove me wrong and show me how bad of a problem false reports are. If you can show me, with data and completely objectively, that false reports pose a large threat to the community, I will change my opinion and agree with you. Everything I have seen so far has shaped my opinion - false reports are an extremely rare issue. Only a few number of edge cases seem to exist. In the years I've been active on the boards, there are three that stand out to me. Two with the "support" Singed and Nunu players, which were more related to attitude than false reports, and one where a player was accidentally banned for talking extreme shit to himself. Three cases from the millions of players over the course of a few years is not a bad ratio at all. It's actually very good.

I'm going to try to clarify, to the best of my knowledge, the issues you have outlined here that you think need clarification. Keep in mind this is my interpretation and, while I have years of experience, I am not a representative of the opinions of Riot and could very well be off-base (as has happened in the past).

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=fwsZB15t,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-30T23:09:25.646+0000)

NEEDS CLARIFICATION: Would you be punished for harassing players (unwittingly) by continually reporting them based on your faulty belief of wrongdoing?

The better question is "are you harassing others?" If yes, then you should be reported, if not, then you should not be. I argue that simply asking for someone to report someone else is not inherently harassment. If someone was toxic in the game and you happen to ask for reports against that person, should you be punished then? I don't think so. It's something that I think comes naturally, as a reaction to bad attitudes, griefing, verbal abuse, you name it. However, I agree that some people harass others in different ways, such as rallying for reports against you when you did nothing wrong. I am not denying that this attitude exists. Players that harass others with threats of reports and other passive-aggressive behavior should be punished. That, I feel we can agree on.

NEEDS CLARIFICATION: If no one is being punished for 'report calling' -- except when followed with verbal abuse in chat -- what is being done to protect the players that are the recipients of false report calling -- either purposefully as harassment, or under a misguided belief of wrongdoing?

If you think players being punished for false reports is a big problem, I would love to see some data to support it.

Being 'mass reported / report called upon' when you have done nothing wrong is a shitty feeling; i.e. you are being harassed/'griefed' upon. Additionally, the act of focusing attention on your bad game / whatever, is detracting focus from the game and is only a negative event.

I agree completely. It's a totally shitty feeling. To some, I'm sure it's worse than being called names. But that is harassment and harassment is already unacceptable to the community. There's nothing special about the act of "report calling" to make it any different. Words are words at the end of the day, what matters most in this situation is the intent behind them. My intention here was to clear up any confusion you may have had, and I hope I accomplished my goal. I would be happy to discuss this issue with you more if you have any further questions.

Chønklord2 votes

I invite you to prove me wrong and show me how bad of a problem false reports are.

I will record all my games I play and show you firsthand accounts of false report lobbying against me on a near regular basis, and show you that -- for me at least -- it is a continual battle of harassment whether intentional or not.

If you can show me, with data and completely objectively, that false reports pose a large threat to the community, I will change my opinion and agree with you.

Do you have data and complete objectivity showing they do not?

Everything I have seen so far has shaped my opinion - false reports are an extremely rare issue. Only a few number of edge cases seem to exist. In the years I've been active on the boards, there are three that stand out to me.

Just because you deal with a few cases on these forums -- which is a minuscule percentage of the league community overall -- doesn't mean false reports from report lobbying doesn't exist 'en mass' in the regular joe's game. You are stating something as 'fact' when it is actually based on your subjective opinion, biased from only working on the forums here.

The better question is "are you harassing others?" If yes, then you should be reported, if not, then you should not be. I argue that simply asking for someone to report someone else is not inherently harassment.

No. The 'better question' is _how is lobbying reports against anyone (guilty or otherwise) not harassment, period?

If someone was toxic in the game and you happen to ask for reports against that person, should you be punished then? I don't think so.

Because the system only needs one report to flag a player, the act itself of lobbying for reports serves no purpose; either you are unintentionally harassing another player because you are ignorant of how the report system works, or you are intentionally harassing another player because you know it serves no purpose and want to bully them.

It's something that I think comes naturally, as a reaction to bad attitudes, griefing, verbal abuse, you name it.

If they are innocent: then they're going to feel like shit. If they are guilty: they are more likely to intensify their toxicity/trolling/bad behavior after being called out. Just because you feel it's a 'natural response as a reaction to X behavior' **doesn't make that response appropriate according to how the report system works and how the Summoner Code works. It's the same concept of "don't argue with toxic players, mute them". Because arguing with people like that serves no purpose but to create negativity for everyone around you and usually results in both of you being punished.

If you think players being punished for false reports is a big problem, I would love to see some data to support it.

Again, do you have data stating otherwise? Anyone can counter-argue with a "show me the data" line; but you need to have them on your side in order to backup your claims. That is why I am asking Riot Tantram for clarification so we can start to understand if the IFS system might be faulty somewhere when it comes to this particular subset of report issues.

I agree completely. It's a totally shitty feeling. To some, I'm sure it's worse than being called names. But that is harassment and harassment is already unacceptable to the community.

Lobbying for reports was already considered harassment by the community according to Riot Tantram. Not "lobbying for reports if X equals Y behavior"; Not "lobbying for reports _but only when ....."; asking for reports, is harassment, as considered by the community.

Riot Tantram (NA) - about a month ago

[. . .]** Asking for reports is considered harassment by the community. **[. . .]

And Riot has very implicitly stated that the community, not Riot, determines what is/is not specifically acceptable, under the vague umbrella of the Summoner Code.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

@BoostedBonobo

You have a really good point with asking for these clarifications, and I want to know the answer just as badly as you do, but why do you feel the need to insult everybody who misunderstands your question? Some of them are expressing genuine ideas, and are not attacking you or your question.

I've been reading through your comments on this thread and I've seen many instances of belittling, sarcasm, and other forms of harassment. There is no need for that. You don't have to respond to them. Or if you feel the need to, you certainly could respond in a kinder manner.

It's just like when a player in game might be afraid of punishment after reports are lobbied against them just for doing poorly, people are having to hazard your temper just to contribute their genuine thoughts and questions to this discussion. Why do you keep picking fights when there is no reason to?

Chønklord1 votes

#Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Your are right.

I was replying late this morning (last night, to me) after lack of sleep and being really frustrated.

I do apologize to those that felt belittled, etc.

I've redacted the negative parts of my comments.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Ah ok, I understand now. (Also I found your comment further down explaining this after I posted this one). I sympathize, it can be really irritating when people don't understand. It is a shame how that frustration can make it so much harder to be understood though :/

Chønklord1 votes

Very true. I think I summarized it much more clearly in here:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/fwsZB15t-calling-riot-tantram-please-respond?comment=0001000000000001

Honestly, the reason the original post might come off as confusing or unclear to many forum goers, is because I was primarily directing the post to Riot Tantram, in a more shorthanded format of conversation (since he knows what he's said and he's aware of the original confusion/issue). The original post wasn't really meant to be read without any prior knowledge or the appropriate context.

deathgod51 votes

Report calling by itself isn't punishable Riot says, unless it's used as a tool for harassment and/or supplemented with other forms of 'real' harassment.

report calling isn't the same thing as falsely reporting(which is not punishable). There is no system in place that goes after those who falsely report as what constitutes as harassment is 100 percent subjective. With report calling you have to think about a scenario like this:

[00:04:50] [master Yi ganks lane, mordekaiser gets a double kill on yi and the lane saltyMain10001101110] [00:05:12]saltyMain10001101110: report yi, trolling [00:05:13]saltyMain10001101110: report yi flaming [00:05:14]saltyMain10001101110: report yi burning down my house [00:05:15]saltyMain10001101110: report yi [00:05:16]saltyMain10001101110: report yi [00:05:17]saltyMain10001101110: report yi [00:05:18]saltyMain10001101110: report yi [00:05:19]saltyMain10001101110: report yi

It is this type of report calling that is seen as harassment. So you don't have to worry.

Chønklord3 votes

#Edited to remove my bad attitude

~~Besides the fact your reply completely misses the target of what I'm talking about, in addition to having a few logical fallacies -- ~~ I'm not asking if report calling is or is not considered harassment, please revisit the post again. (and I personally know the differences and nuances on what is harassment; I'm 32 not 13). And also, you are not Tantram.

deathgod51 votes

Where is the accountability in your algorithms for players that report others based on a false sense of justice and good intentions -- and sure, may actually catch some 'bad apples' -- but also unintentionally falsely report innocent players? Are these players then considered 'toxic' and worthy of punishment for 'report calling abuse' or not?

then I really suggest you redefine your question as it looked like you asked that.

Chønklord2 votes

#Edited to remove my bad attitude

I'm not here to argue with you, I'm asking for Tantram to clarify these things. I've highlighted the key wording in the quote below. I really suggest you work on reading comprehension, because you fail to understand the point of my post.

(I'll give you a hint: the entire post is connected together as a whole with the subject at the top, the context in the middle, and the summary and final thought at the end, you know, like a standard essay paper).

I would appreciate if you could shed some clarity on my confusion (and the confusion a lot of players on the boards here are having) in regard to 'report calling / lobbying for reports'.

deathgod51 votes

I read the full post before I responded, it is not well written. And with you also insult my reading comprehension so let me show you how I got confused here so we can clear up this misunderstanding.

I would appreciate if you could shed some clarity on my confusion (and the confusion a lot of players on the boards here are having) in regard to 'report calling / lobbying for reports'.

this part I read, that is why the rest of the post confuses me.

As a follow-up / addition to a comment you made and a follow-up question from another poster:

First: say this but don't actually include the response tantrum gives here, causing him to have to look up his own response instead of including it. You did include a part of an answer below, but if it is an answer to the question it is better to include it above your point.

What if you genuinely believe a player is doing something wrong (int feeding, etc), and feel you need to report them in your game. Now let's say you do this on a regular, continual basis; not with any intent of malice or purposeful harassment or any other negative, toxic chat involved -- you simply feel that "justice must be served" by reporting 'wrongdoers'.

here you refer to reporting not to report calling. You never say anything about report calling here. This has nothing to do with the subject in the beginning

Maybe out of 20 games a week, you've reported at least one person in 10 of those games. That's 10 reports a week.

Let's say 50% are false reports and the other half are accurate. The IFS takes the false ones and throws them out (because you say the system is 'very good' at filtering out BS reports); the other ones get pushed through the system as legitimate reports. So now approximately 5 false reports a week are being filed.

you again refer to reporting not report lobbying this has NOTHING to do with anything. Reporting is not punishable they said so quite often.

Where in this scenario does the system kick in and punish our 'good intentioned' reporter? Is there a limit to the number of reports? Does it punish them at all?

Report calling by itself isn't punishable Riot says, unless it's used as a tool for harassment and/or supplemented with other forms of 'real' harassment.

Riot NaKyle (NA) submitted a day ago If a player used asking for reports as a leaping off point for actual harassment, that's when we'd blow the whistle.

here you literally ask when a player get's reported for filing too many false reports(which is the part of the post I responded to). They talk in that part to report lobbying which is what I did in the example with saltymain in my first response.

Also, you've previously stated that a player's report 'weight' does not lose value based on the number of reports they make.

Riot Tantram (NA) 2 days ago Confirmed. Reports do not lose value based upon the number of times you report players.

and

Riot Tantram (NA) about a month ago [. . .] As long as you are making a valid report, it counts. Your reports don't stop being factored in if they don't punish a player.

again both these quotes having nothing to do with report calling/lobbying which your starting summary refers to. The thread in case you want an extra answer too has nothing to do with this. It had to do with saying "report nasus" in game being reportable.

Where is the accountability in your algorithms for players that report others based on a false sense of justice and good intentions -- and sure, may actually catch some 'bad apples' -- but also unintentionally falsely report innocent players? Are these players then considered 'toxic' and worthy of punishment for 'report calling abuse' or not?

again as I said in my original answer. They have said that there is no punishment for often reporting players as being more trigger happy with reports shouldn't be punishable. this literally answers the question. Where is the accountability in your algorithms for players that report others based on a false sense of justice and good intentions -- and sure, may actually catch some 'bad apples' -- but also unintentionally falsely report innocent players?

this also automatically answers the followup question as it is a question that refers to the first part actually happening.

You say the system recognizes the validity of incoming reports against the reportee, but how does it handle the (in)validity of well intentioned, but misguided ones by the reporter (in terms of penalties)?

again it doesn't do that.

I read your post. I apparently missed the point, here is how I got to this point. I consider your post vague because you clearly were looking for some other answer. So please, tell me where my way of reading this post goes wrong so I can do better next time

Chønklord1 votes

The entire thing is about 'report calling'. anywhere you read the word 'report', it is referring to 'report calling', as stated in the top paragraph.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=fwsZB15t,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-30T08:58:17.132+0000)

it's not that hard to understand; _the entire thing is about 'report calling'. anywhere you read the word 'report', it is referring to 'report calling', as stated in the top paragraph.

In that case it may help clear up misunderstanding to edit the original post to show that. RIOTers are more likely to respond to threads that are as clear and concise as possible about what they mean.

No offense.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

I read the full post before I responded, it is not well written. And with you also insult my reading comprehension so let me show you how I got confused here so we can clear up this misunderstanding.

this part I read, that is why the rest of the post confuses me.

First: say this but don't actually include the response tantrum gives here, causing him to have to look up his own response instead of including it. You did include a part of an answer below, but if it is an answer to the question it is better to include it above your point.

here you refer to reporting not to report calling. You never say anything about report calling here. This has nothing to do with the subject in the beginning

you again refer to reporting not report lobbying this has NOTHING to do with anything. Reporting is not punishable they said so quite often. If a player used asking for reports as a leaping off point for actual harassment, that's when we'd blow the whistle.

here you literally ask when a player get's reported for filing too many false reports(which is the part of the post I responded to). They talk in that part to report lobbying which is what I did in the example with saltymain in my first response.

again both these quotes having nothing to do with report calling/lobbying which your starting summary refers to. The thread in case you want an extra answer too has nothing to do with this. It had to do with saying "report nasus" in game being reportable.

again as I said in my original answer. They have said that there is no punishment for often reporting players as being more trigger happy with reports shouldn't be punishable. this literally answers the question. Where is the accountability in your algorithms for players that report others based on a false sense of justice and good intentions -- and sure, may actually catch some 'bad apples' -- but also unintentionally falsely report innocent players?

this also automatically answers the followup question as it is a question that refers to the first part actually happening.

again it doesn't do that.

I read your post. I apparently missed the point, here is how I got to this point. I consider your post vague because you clearly were looking for some other answer. So please, tell me where my way of reading this post goes wrong so I can do better next time

I'm going to offer my help hoping i also didn't fail reading comprehension lol. I'm open to correction if I get this wrong.The confusion you couldn't follow came from the multiple (and seemingly contradicting) information provided by Riot that was quoted.

I'll break it down Riot says report people Riot says you don't get reported for asking people to report with you Then Riot says "well if you lobby a report, the manner can be considered harassment.' Riot also says you can't get reported for reporting. They then provide a basis for you to report, but reports diminish in validity if they are frequently submitted OR deemed "false reports". Based on the fact that the lobbying reporter is asking for a lobby of reports every time he reports, he may be receiving reports for his lobbying (go ahead report me i already reported you "scrub" etc) Now we consider the player base reporting consistently using the lobbying method, fighting and reporting each other with some being done in spite and others reporting players ALL the time in hopes of cleaning up league

So the simplest way I can think to boil this down

Bonobo then asks for clarification amongst this mess of statements as to how a report is actually weighable during any one individual event. How are individual reports weighed with all of these factors? With an auto system and the occasional tribunal how is it accurate to keep negative players off the servers?

I'll go a step further

The sportsmanlike are going to report They are probably going to report more often and ask their fellow players to participate in the hopes of firewalling the increasing negative player base The overly negative players are going to counter report and flame and try to rally the opposite (cuz self interest)

So where is the effectiveness in any one individual, sportsmanlike player's report? If he/she continues reporting the value of the reports go down? But they also may be accumulating reports themselves (for lobbying)? How is the older playerbase helping Riot clean up? How does it work? How is it effective? We're just supposed to trust the accuracy of the system and NOT look at how unhappy these boards are with the same topics over and over?

hope this helps

Chønklord2 votes

I haven't slept and I'm cranky from losing 5 ranked games in a row just now, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

No offense, but your post made my brain hurt with all the 'report' words lol.

Let me simplify everything for anyone reading this

  1. This post is technically only for Riot Tantram, I didn't make this post to start having a discussion with everyone in the community, so I would appreciate no more dissection of it; unless you have something meaningful to contribute on the subject

  2. 'Report calling' is harassment according to the community, or at least that is what Riot Tantram had stated a month ago. He also stated the IFS system only needs one report to flag a player, therefore just the act of 'report calling' is by itself, needless and serves no purpose. Hence, players that 'call reports / lobby reports' on other players either A) don't realize you only need 1 report to be effective, or B) use it on purpose as a form of harassment/bullying.

  3. Regardless whether someone falls into the category of A or B above, the end result of lobbying reports against someone else ingame always results in a negative experience/gaming environment for everyone involved. A lot of players in the community were under the assumption that lobbying for reports was a punishable offense, period. Now, we are told it is not punishable, unless used as a form of harassment.

  4. A few days ago, another Rioter "NaKyle", made a post saying Riot does not punish players for 'report calling' -- unless they use it as a form of harassment and/or have other chat toxicity as well. This is contrary to what Riot Tantram has stated, along with Riot Husker from EUW who made a lengthy post on how lobbying for reports is harassment and punishable.

  5. Riot Tantram also has stated a few days ago that a player's report value does not decrease based on the number of reports they make; so if you regularly report others for bad behavior -- and maybe a portion of those reports are actually false reports and don't punish anyone -- your reports will always still count because the system always flags a player when they are reported, regardless of reason.

Now, with all this information at hand, the question I am putting forth and hoping to get clarity on, is very simple:

What happens in the system when someone who has good intentions without any other toxic chat, lobbies for reports on a regular, continual basis.

Remember, according to Riot -- lobbying for reports when used purposefully to harass or also has chat toxicity alongside it, is punishable.

But what if you aren't doing it with ill intent, or with any other chat toxicity other than 'report player X for ____'?

Will they be punished for lobbying too many false reports? If they are, then Riot would very likely be punishing players who are unaware/ignorant of how the system works.

Also regardless of the outcome, as it stands right now, Riot is still not holding any accountability for the ones being falsely reported over and over by those unaware/ignorant players. Those players are still having to deal with the low level harassment -- purposeful or otherwise -- in their games. But that's another topic for another time.

Kei1432 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=fwsZB15t,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-30T14:01:58.651+0000)

  1. Regardless whether someone falls into the category of A or B above, the end result of lobbying reports against someone else ingame always results in a negative experience/gaming environment for everyone involved. A lot of players in the community were under the assumption that lobbying for reports was a punishable offense, period. Now, we are told it is not punishable, unless used as a form of harassment.

Here, I'll give you an example on where it is not punishable.

Team fight happens, enemy Soraka positioning very well, not dying, landing Qs and keeping everyone alive.

My team gets wiped, and someone /allchats "report soraka for not dying" and soraka responds ":D".

Harassment? of course not.

Another case: Load into screen, 9/10 people have skins, someone says "report Ahri, no skin". Harassment? nope.

There are ways to use "report" as banter. Not everything has to be a harassment, but everything can be used as a harassment as well. It's just how you use it.

Also, I'm pretty sure you know that false reports get thrown out. The system is smarter than you think and not just a "word search", it has the ability to identify harassment, but I'm pretty sure that is exactly what you want to clarify.

Chønklord1 votes

You're missing the entire concept of the post and this is off topic

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=fwsZB15t,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-30T14:01:58.651+0000)

I haven't slept and I'm cranky from losing 5 ranked games in a row just now, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

We are sorry to hear that, it sounds stressful. Hope you feel better soon!

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