Boards›Player Behavior

So just got an automatic permaban.

Nergál·4/18/2019, 8:42:42 AM·2 votes·2,562 views

Alright so other than specifically for my case (I'll post all my toxicity logs at the end) I also would like to hear people's opinions on these 4 points I'll make.

1st reason why I think the current ban system is flawled/wrong. I've been banned 3 times, I don't even remember when the past 2 were (something like 2014 and 2015) but what I do remember is that all 3 times my match history looked like this and these are the only 3 times I managed to have such a huge losing spree. Which means you are more likely to get banned for having some bad matches since everyone tends to report their team when they lose. (Because 99% of the people don't understand the meaning of the word INTENTIONAL feeding)

2nd reason. In short you have 2 bans and then 3rd is permaban. Someone who started in 2019 has 2 chances. I who started in 2010 also have 2 chances, there's never a reset counter. It would make sense that every 2 years or so you get back to step 1 or 1 step back or that at most you get a 3-6 month ban instead of a permanent one because honestly even if you flame 3 times and deserve any kind of penalty but that's in a 9 years timeframe then getting a permaban is stupid imo. Think about it, flaming 3 times in 100 games gives you the same penalty as flaming 3 times in 40000 games which like I said is stupid.

3rd reason. I was under the impression this is not true but apparently the system is automated. Client says "a player triggered a review" but on the chat logs of the 3 games that apparently someone "reviewed" was the last match I had, the match that ended 5seconds before I got the permaban which obviously means that it's what triggered it and obviously nobody reviewed at all, so combining that with reason #1 if you're unlucky and have a bad lose streak you may automatically get banned.

4th reason. Ok this is the only controversial one, people say that what others tell you doesn't mean you have the right to flame and I disagree. Sure if somebody says "omg noob, why you bought the xxxx item?" and you reply "fuck off" it's pretty toxic. But if somebody says "dude you're such a noob, I hope your house burns down and your whole family dies" and then you also reply "fuck off" then it's more justified, but thing is when people review your chat they review ONLY YOUR chat, they have no idea what you reply to, they simply see you saying "fuck off" and determine you're the toxic one. (And yes btw somebody did tell me the line about wishing my family to die in one of the games on my report card). Also even if you disagree with this there's still a very valid point on why the whole chat should be available and that's because you can easily get stuff out of context. Imagine an aram match and somebody says to go feed a specific poro to make it bigger, then you're in base and you reply "I'm coming to feed", this is the only thing the reviewers see and I'm pretty sure they'll immediately assume that you said that in allchat to the enemy team.

My report card proves exactly my point #4.

This is the 3rd game I got reported for (bolded some lines which would be the only relevant ones or the ones I'm being toxic if you want to skip to those)

Game 3 In-Game Nergál: i killed morg?

Nergál: wtf u want me to do Nergál: to do fucking what (support flaming because I didn't help him when enemy jungler ganked bot, i killed enemy support and escaped while the ganker was focusing on my support so because I decided to kill the enemy one instead of protecting mine he got pretty mad and was flaming me)

Nergál: lee would go back Nergál: no way i'd kill him Nergál: and i was out of range Nergál: by the time i attack lee both would be over Nergál: then it would be me autoattacking Nergál: anyway Nergál: stfu Nergál: for real Nergál: im tired of everyone crying like a bitch (support still flaming for that gank)

Nergál: im 2/0/1 Nergál: you still cant shut up Nergál: ye i see Nergál: u want me to go on the fed target Nergál: to feed him more Nergál: exactly

Nergál: min20 u get your report then (support said in chat in about 12:00 how he's tired of this game and that if we press no on ff at 20min he will go afk then)

Nergál: WHAT? Nergál: u started flaming me Nergál: when lee ganked Nergál: i killed morg Nergál: u died from lee Nergál: u started flame Nergál: and now u're gonna play the victim Nergál: fuck off (as you can see I hardly said anything since what happened at that 1st gank in early game, this was a response to my support saying "report Nergál for flaming" as the game was about to be over)

Post-Game Nergál: thanks for admitting a few times u plan to go afk lux Nergál: makes banning u easier (oh the irony, so the guy who was flaming nonstop all game, went afk and even admitted in chat of doing so is out there while I got banned cause of him for saying shut up a couple of times and a single fuck off as a response to his flaming)

Game 1 (this is the game that triggered the permaban and it happened instantly when game ended so nobody reviewed it for sure)

In-Game Nergál: nah just report her (so this one was an obvious joke, lux came online at 1:20 and said "lets remake lux is offline" (talking about herself) so I replied as a joke to report lux for being offline which was clearly a joke since I said it to lux herself that was online...can easily get this out of context and think I'm toxic and asking to report someone straight off)

Nergál: great help btw kaisa (eh very minor toxicity, no excuse but adc was chatting with lux and didn't realize buff spawned and lux was still in base since she just logged in so I ended up doing it solo)

Nergál: how about now? Nergál: 10times as toxic as me Nergál: and 10 times more noob Nergál: yet so mad (after I said the "great help btw kaisa" line, kaisa replied "go fuck yourself stupid %%%% I'm a smurf, reported for flaming" then at lvl 1-2 they got first blood on her, that's why I called her more toxic+noob, and I stand by what I said if somebody tell me to go fuck myself my reply that he's a noob should mean absolutely nothing)

Nergál: sorry but why the hell was leona camping there lol (leona is an enemy btw...I was heading for a gank and she was waiting in a weird bush for no reason, can easily get this out of context and think I'm flaming a teammate if you don't know leona%%%%'t in my team)

Nergál: for what? Nergál: clearly not intentional Nergál: but u can report kaisa for flaming (kaisa asked to report me in allchat for doing a stupid gank, i admit the gank was bad but clearly not intentional even the enemies said that to her, and also she insulted me in the same sentence that she asked them to report me which is why i said to report her for flaming instead)

**Nergál: see how nice it is when u shut up kaisa? (at this point i was 5/2, kaisa got 2 doublekills from ganks i did and yes I could say it in a nicer way but still this is again minor and not permaban worthy imo)

Nergál: sigh shut up for real Nergál: he flashed Nergál: when i was midjump on my ult Nergál: and avoided the dmg (kaisa started flaming me again for suiciding, i was jarvan and flash+R on a 20 hp lee sin who managed to flash when I was midair and avoid the dmg and rest of the team killing me in return)

Nergál: HOW TO GO TANKY Nergál: WHEN I DONT FARM Nergál: BECAUSE THEY ARE PUSHING US TO THE BASE Nergál: I DIDNT FuCKING FEED (still flaming me nonstop and asking me to buy tanky items and spamming to report me for intentionally feed....)

Nergál: if all of you would shut up Nergál: instead of blame everything on someone (whole team flames each other pretty much at this point, somebody blamed someone else in this case and not me)

Game2 Won't link the chat because it's in Greek so most won't be able to read it but I fully admit on this one I was toxic. Only thing I can say in my defense is that

  1. the person I was flaming was the one I mentioned above that mentioned how my whole family should die and I replied back (didn't say anything as harsh but yes I was very toxic myself after reading that) and
  2. I haven't flamed that bad in any game literally for years so snapping once in a game every few years means I'll eventually get permabanned when it happens for the 3rd time? This is why like I said there should be a reset to the penalty you receive.

Honestly I'm not even sure what I want to get out of this, I know I wont be unbanned (which made me pretty sad since I played since beta and this was an account that had many many legacy/rare skins+icons like the one you get for buying the rare physical copy of the game and overall would be worth thousands of euros).

18 Comments

Jo0o4/18/2019, 11:06:48 AM3 votes

Disagreed wholeheartedly across the board.

  1. You clearly tilted hard due to your loss streak and got toxic. Nothing to do with mass reports getting thrown around.

  2. You get four chances: two chat restrictions, a 14-day ban, and a perma. This is more than enough. However, you also can EASILY drop down punishment tiers by simply not being toxic.

  3. Ignorance of the system is no excuse. The Instant Feedback System is really good at picking up on consistently toxic logs. You don't need a human to read your logs.

  4. Fuck context. The rules are to not flame. You've been banned three times. That you somehow don't understand not to flame at this point is beyond my comprehension.

After three bans for the same thing, what's more likely: The punishment system is flawed, or you're just an unrepentant toxic individual who refuses to engage in introspection or take any responsibility for your actions?

zPOOPz4/18/2019, 9:07:50 AM3 votes

1st reason why I think the current ban system is flawled/wrong. I've been banned 3 times, I don't even remember when the past 2 were (something like 2014 and 2015) but what I do remember is that all 3 times my match history looked like this and these are the only 3 times I managed to have such a huge losing spree. Which means you are more likely to get banned for having some bad matches since everyone tends to report their team when they lose. (Because 99% of the people don't understand the meaning of the word INTENTIONAL feeding)

Were the other 2 bans for chat offense or gameplay offense? From within the context of this entire thread, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the other 2 bans were chat-base toxicity, which mean whether you had a 50 game losing streak or not does not really matter. If you did nothing wrong or say nothing toxic, it does not matter if you are reported every single game. report =/= punish. report = valid review = punish. If I am wrong in my guess, then correct me and tell me it's gameplay offenses (you were shown a match history instead of a chat log). Someone claiming you are intentionally feeding is irrelevant to chat offense review. Your gameplay and kda and such are not taken into account.

2nd reason. In short you have 2 bans and then 3rd is permaban. Someone who started in 2019 has 2 chances. I who started in 2010 also have 2 chances, there's never a reset counter. It would make sense that every 2 years or so you get back to step 1 or 1 step back or that at most you get a 3-6 month ban instead of a permanent one because honestly even if you flame 3 times and deserve any kind of penalty but that's in a 9 years timeframe then getting a permaban is stupid imo. Think about it, flaming 3 times in 100 games gives you the same penalty as flaming 3 times in 40000 games which like I said is stupid.

It is widely known that you can de-escalate your punishment tier by playing positively or at worst neutrally for many games over 5-6 months (the proposed average time frame assuming you play average amount of games per day). It is not based on elapsed time, but on the amount of games played without toxicity.

Punishment is based on severity * frequency. If you flame with the same amount of severity, flaming 3 times in 100 games DO NOT gives you the same penalty as flaming 3 times in 40000 games. That's just patently false because you would not trigger the frequency punishment assuming your flames are not severe. (Just a side note, if you were banned 3 times, you didn't really hold any singular accounts for 9 years timeframe yes?)

3rd reason. I was under the impression this is not true but apparently the system is automated. Client says "a player triggered a review" but on the chat logs of the 3 games that apparently someone "reviewed" was the last match I had, the match that ended 5seconds before I got the permaban which obviously means that it's what triggered it and obviously nobody reviewed at all, so combining that with reason #1 if you're unlucky and have a bad lose streak you may automatically get banned.

Chat base offense is reviewed by an automated machine learning system called the Instant Feedback System (commonly referred as the IFS or "the bots"). This system has been in place for many years (can't remember but i'm going to guess in the 2014-2015-ish timeframe). It is false that nobody reviewed your chatlogs. No human probably reviewed it, but your chat logs were reviewed by the IFS. Again, report =/= punish no matter how many reported you rack up. It's not "automatic ban". If your chat logs have no toxicity in it, there is no punishment.

4th reason. Ok this is the only controversial one, people say that what others tell you doesn't mean you have the right to flame and I disagree. Sure if somebody says "omg noob, why you bought the xxxx item?" and you reply "fuck off" it's pretty toxic. But if somebody says "dude you're such a noob, I hope your house burns down and your whole family dies" and then you also reply "fuck off" then it's more justified, but thing is when people review your chat they review ONLY YOUR chat, they have no idea what you reply to, they simply see you saying "fuck off" and determine you're the toxic one. (And yes btw somebody did tell me the line about wishing my family to die in one of the games on my report card). Also even if you disagree with this there's still a very valid point on why the whole chat should be available and that's because you can easily get stuff out of context.

There is no justification. If you spew toxicity regardless of reasons, you did spewed toxcity. Why would the whole chat matters? There's no "who's more toxic". There's no justification. There's no self-defense. It's not a mutually exclusive punishment (meaning if the other guy is deemed more toxic, he should be punished and not you). You BOTH should be punished if you both engaged in toxicity regardless of who is more severe than who. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and disagreement with it, but those are Rito rules and they will not be changing it anytime soon. Just like in real life when you go to work for a company or go to a public venue such as a restaurant or movie theater or a park, there are rules in place. You have the right to disagree with it, but you must follow it or GTFO.

Imagine an aram match and somebody says to go feed a specific poro to make it bigger, then you're in base and you reply "I'm coming to feed", this is the only thing the reviewers see and I'm pretty sure they'll immediately assume that you said that in allchat to the enemy team.

There is a flaw in this logic/example. As noted above, chat toxicity is handled by the IFS. The IFS is only triggered by report. The IFS is not an automate system that auto scan your chat in every game looking for things to punish you with. No report = no review = no IFS = no problem. If someone told you to feed a poro and you said "I'm coming to feed", who the hell is going to report you for that? If no one report you, your chat will not be review. You will not be punished. You also forget that there is an additional safeguard for such low chance of a false positive happened. It's called a support ticket. While the IFS does not look at any other chat but your own, the support agent CAN look at the whole chat log and if you explained the situation that someone told you to go feed a poro and you responded with "I'm coming to feed", it is not hard at all for the support agent to see that and remove your penalty. And yes, the support agent CAN see if the text is made in /allchat or not. It will literally said (All Chat) in your log so don't need to worry about that.

On the same rein as this example and with your point (4), while the IFS will not look at any chat log but your own. The option to submit a support ticket and request a human to review your punishment is always available to you. The support agent will always be able to see the whole chat log. You always have the option to plead your case with context and ask the support agent to read the entire game log. This makes your point (4) irrelevant.

Scarlesh4/18/2019, 8:54:25 AM3 votes

I feel for you, man. I've gotten a suspension myself when dealing with an intentional feeder, and I can confirm: They can hurl strings upon strings of abusive chat, AND abusive behaviour at you, but the moment you lose your patience, you're immediately fucked up by this bot-based system. And the GM's are of no help whatsoever, so best of luck in your future endeavors.

ı Sona ı4/18/2019, 10:51:46 PM2 votes

Stop flaming teammates for any reason forever. That is all.

[sona-playing]

Telephone Booth4/18/2019, 11:44:06 PM1 votes

  1. You losing isnt the punishing factor. Its about integrity. How you act in tough times. If you broke the rules whether you won or lost, the result is the same. Of course youre more likely to be reported, but if you did nothing wrong, the report does nothing.

  2. You do move back down in the tiers of punishment. It uses severity x consistency. They dont share how many games played with good behavior it takes to move down a tier.

  3. Its very easy to automate a system that simply detects chat language. Thats what they use. It has to be a blanket system. The more nuances you add, the more resources (employees and time) it takes to dole out punishments. They cant hire teams to comb through hundreds of thousands of reports to determine justification based on context. Again, nothing to do with wins/losses, everything to do with whether rules were broken or not.

  4. Like i explained in 3. Im sure they could hire people, but their bottom line is more important. If they spend all their money on behavior bullshit, we may not have league at all. They need profit. Thats capitalism. Game companies go bankrupt all the time.

Sometimes Fizz4/18/2019, 7:50:15 PM1 votes

Can you post a screen shot of your unedited chat logs? The context lines here make it super hard to figure out what you actually said.

KFCeytron4/18/2019, 9:37:00 AM1 votes

After three punishments, which you had, Riot tells you that anymore problems from you will result in a permaban. And then you proceed to call people bitches, announce that you'll report people, tell people to fuck off, harass someone about how they'll be banned, call people "toxic," "mad," and "noob," announce reports again, tell people to shut up, and shout in caps. And now, therefore, you are banned.