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The Return of Tribunal is the ONLY thing that can save lol

Resurrerection··4 votes·784 views

Many people in and out of the community largely agree, lol is toxic. This is a massive issue that's never going to get solved unless some major changes happen. Like fixing and returning tribunal to use. I get that it's down for maintenance however it's been down for so long, and lol has become unimaginably toxic in that time, e.g. I literally have a higher chance of being told to kill myself than not being told to now.

I was also compelled to make this discussion because the vast amount of players that are disgustingly hateful and rude with no provocation (and trust me, it's not like they're tilted, I check match history before reporting), my last 3 matches all had a chat with literally no team work and was made of mostly death threats and hate speech. It's genuinely disappointing that I have come to thinking that any form of communication other than pings/simple emoji's is a bad idea at low elo (where because of the lack of a need to be professional as there is no spotlight on you).

As this is a serious post please be civil and polite in the comments and remember that constructive criticism is always welcome and needed to make this post popular enough to be seen by enough people to have an impact.

  • Sincerely, a very frustrated and tired long time league player.

Edit - I saw the new post and I'm truly excited, I will be deleting this post soon so, don't bother commenting.

30 Comments

Imperial Pandaa3 votes

See, I wonder how a marriage between the Tribunal and IFS would be. The IFS could be the first line. Being used to detect and forward cases to the tribunal. However, I feel it would be beneficial if there were restrictions on who can volunteer to be a part of Tribunal. I.E. people not already on the punishment tiers. That might seem harsh, but there seems to be quite a few who don't agree when they get bans and only a handful of those tend to be reasonable. That might seem harsh to those who only have Chat Restrictions, but I feel it would help prevent abuse. If they happen to revamp the honor/positive behavior system well enough, maybe only let those players volunteer. Obviously there would need to be other stipulations in place as well (Rank 30, etc...)

Also, get rid of the payout that used to exist. Yes, getting some ip might be nice, but too often (from what I understand) did this result in auto clicking a decision just for that.

Now the other benefit of the marriage. IFS would be able to continue evolving based on decisions from the tribunal, improve its parameters.

Kartagia2 votes

IFS would only work, if Riot would listen people with understanding how AI should be taught, and understanding all chat should be handled by system, not just reported chat.

Reasons why Riot IFS would not work:

  • Removal of all context. You cannot take chat of one person from chat of all. Not even humans could understand it as language is context based. Also the game events matter in interpretation of chat.
  • Totally wrong kind of teaching material: The Riot does not give to the bot "this is not punishable". No AI can learn without both negative and positive data.
TrulyBland2 votes

So, Riot IFS doesn't work because of things you assume they do? Where's your source on these points being how Riot's system is handled?

Kartagia1 votes

The results I see and what Riot have told us. I happen to know how AIs should be taught due my university studies. Riot has totally neglected the part of teaching what is not punishable. And RIot fanboys continue to tell me understanding human language does not need context. Apparently American school system is so bad you deserve Donald Trump.

Joxcab1 votes

Context is irrelevant. You don't need context.

You have no proof of that, and given the instant system works almost perfectly, I'm sure they have rules to detect what's toxic or punishable just fine.

Kartagia1 votes

And how much you have studied AI teaching? Tell me.. As you seem to be an expert on that field and expert on human languages, as you know context is irrelevant. I can tell that you are master of Dunning-Kruger effect. I suggest you google this term. THen I suggest you start getting out of "false sense of mastery and understanding":

Joxcab1 votes

I'm not sure why you're talking back when you still don't understand. Context doesn't matter. No one cares about what someone else did. It doesn't matter. If you broke the rules, you deserve punishment. No one cares if they started it first or flamed you first or trolled you or tried to bait you. You can just mute or ignore them. If you break the rules in return, you are just as bad or even worse than them.

Stop complaining.

Kartagia1 votes

Do you understand what context mean?

What does phrase "I play with keyboard" mean? Can you make difference whether I mean playing a game with keyboard or playing music with keyboard of piano? This is example why context always matters.

scazzman2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cuYrUQml,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-28T17:41:25.887+0000)

See, I wonder how a marriage between the Tribunal and IFS would be. The IFS could be the first line. Being used to detect and forward cases to the tribunal. However, I feel it would be beneficial if there were restrictions on who can volunteer to be a part of Tribunal. I.E. people not already on the punishment tiers. That might seem harsh, but there seems to be quite a few who don't agree when they get bans and only a handful of those tend to be reasonable. That might seem harsh to those who only have Chat Restrictions, but I feel it would help prevent abuse. If they happen to revamp the honor/positive behavior system well enough, maybe only let those players volunteer. Obviously there would need to be other stipulations in place as well (Rank 30, etc...)

Also, get rid of the payout that used to exist. Yes, getting some ip might be nice, but too often (from what I understand) did this result in auto clicking a decision just for that.

Now the other benefit of the marriage. IFS would be able to continue evolving based on decisions from the tribunal, improve its parameters.

I would make it similar to ranked reward eligibility "no ACTIVE chat ban or no 14 day ban for 3 months" people who are considered mildly negative are the people whose opinions are needed most because if they aren't heard. Thats when they become trolls

Live2LetDie3 votes

There would not be enough time in the day to go through all the reports. I pumped the math out years ago on the forums and it's only increased with the player base size.

Kartagia1 votes

This I agree with you. That is why using AI is not bad idea, if it is done properly. There is FInnish startup company who is doing forum moderation AIs, and their CEO and main researcher stated out how you should not do things. And Riot has done exactly like that.

You cannot get rid of human moderators. You cannot get rid of context. You have to be really really careful to teach system both positive and negative data. Thus you have to teach AI that "this is not violation on this context", and "this is punishable". Both sides are needed, or you get AI bot just like the notorious MicroSoft chat bot turned into bigot racist withing hours of launch.

MUSHROOM MIDGET2 votes

i dont think you realize just how many trolls are out there. do you think the trolls would stay away from the tribunal? no they would love it. constantly trying to get people banned who do not deserve it.

this means a lot of cases would be false punishments which means riot would have to manually review a lot more to decide if punishments were really deserved. which is exactly what they do not want to do.

Kartagia1 votes

RIot did wrong approach when Trolls took over the Tribunal. THey did not trace accounts to the owners and start permabanning all linked accounts.

MUSHROOM MIDGET1 votes

what would you punish them based on? maybe in their opinion they saw something that deserved punishemnt. it would be very hard to prove they were trying to vote innocent people for bans

Kartagia1 votes

It would not be that hard. Riot took Tribunal down when the trolls came to Tribunal and start to vote exact opposite of Summoner's code. The punishment would be "refusal to follow summoner's code". It should not be draconian interpretation but blatant violations are easy to see. Riot just refused to see it, as they noticed majority of their players are trolls. That is really shitty situation for company as they cannot uphold the code they say they would uphold for fiscal reasons. Same reason why organized crime is so hard to punish: they fiscally tie themselves to politicians and law makers.

Resurrerection2 votes

Being trolls, theres a difference between just being harsh and being a troll.

Kartagia1 votes

Punishment would be based on simply "trolling, negative atttiude, and breaking EULA of both Tribunal and League of Legends".

Resurrerection1 votes

Trolls in what sense, as in inting and griefing? or flaming for the sole purpose of making others angry? Cause I was more talking about people who are hateful and rude, not trolls. Furthermore there would obviously be a way to prevent this, like the percentage of your cases found to be faulted would contribute to an eventual ban from the tribunal. Also, as your likelihood to rightfully ban someone goes up, so does the gravity of your cases, e.g. a repeated offender of hate speech would be given to only the highest ranking tribunal members.

Kei1432 votes

you just think the system isn't working cos you don't see it working. doesn't mean it's not working.

Resurrerection2 votes

If you're thinking of leave buster, yeah I know. however I occasionally have the misfortune of getting into a match with someone I have previously reported for horrible behaviour with no provocation other than "hey could you not engage x, we need their carries dead not their tanks" for example, and boom, they're being toxic again with clearly no chat restriction. If THEY don't get punished, well it's only common sense that what riot sees as lesser offenses would not be punished either.

Kei1431 votes

not really "they don't get punished", but minor offenses takes more games of consistent behavior to get punished.

If they had a super bad day, and started getting toxic for 3 games in those days and normally they aren't toxic, chances of them getting punished is very very very low.

it appears that certain members of the community believe that 1 offense = punishment. It doesn't work that way.

Kartagia1 votes

I think you are trying to convince yourself hard it is minor offense, as it does not get punished. The truly sad fact is that system is totally random and arbitrary. It is totally draconian, but it cannot be anything else as all context is removed. You hit enter on wrong place and continue on next line, and you get punishable combo as AI is too stupid to understand such things.

IF getting rules breakers into games is very high, and getting punished is very low, you just agree that system is not working. If most rules violators get away with it, the system is not working. Not at all.

ModPeriscope1 votes

I don't think you'll ever truly eliminate all of toxicity. We are on the internet, and anonymity grants freedom from real-life punishment for saying whatever comes to mind.

Overall, I think we all want toxicity reduced as much as possible. This involves detection, punishment, and reform. Riot has targeted these three areas to better reduce the toxicity: better detection leads to quicker punishment; better punishment (punishment fitting the crime[s]) deters more toxicity; better reform reduces the number of toxic players. So the Instant Feedback System targets the first two, and I think it does a sufficient job of this.

The Tribunal had many errors with dealing with those two quantities. As for detection, it was left up to volunteers. Due to case load and bias, players could be inadvertently punished or they'd be punished a great deal of time after their reportable behavior occurred. I can't speak too much for the punishments, but if the detection was off, then the punishment would also not be appropriate.

We should probably work better towards reform, which is one reason why you see Arbiters and volunteers on here. It's one way to improve in-game behavior and help players to reform.

I literally have a higher chance of being told to kill myself than not being told to now.

I personally find "kys" statements and racist statements rare, perhaps because these topics are swiftly and heavily punished.

Kartagia1 votes

They are not rare at all in European Servers. MAybe European support staff should get fired and new qualified people would be hired instead of them? As blatantly apparently they are not doing their job.

ModPeriscope1 votes

I guess you have differences across servers as to what is zero tolerance. For instance, Korean servers heavily punish your mama jokes.

Kartagia1 votes

{quoted}

I guess you have differences across servers as to what is zero tolerance. For instance, Korean servers heavily punish your mama jokes.

I am sorry, but I have not given any mama jokes.. I am talking with serious understanding of human languages.

ModPeriscope1 votes

I gave an example as to why one thing is punished mote frequently and more severely, and how this can be punished differently across regions and servers. I don't think I said anything about rape, nor did I mention it being a joke.

Kartagia1 votes

{quoted}

I gave an example as to why one thing is punished mote frequently and more severely, and how this can be punished differently across regions and servers. I don't think I said anything about rape, nor did I mention it being a joke.

Yeah, and that is truly bad thing. As apparently the Tribunal Artificial Stupidity SYstem is different to every server. I play in EUNE where those rape threats are common.. Very common and thus blatantly apparently ignored by local support staff.

Kartagia1 votes

{quoted}

I guess you have differences across servers as to what is zero tolerance. For instance, Korean servers heavily punish your mama jokes.

I am sorry, but I have not given any mama jokes.. I am talking with serious understanding of human languages. And I do not think those forced sex threats are jokes. Do you?

Joxcab1 votes

The Tribunal was far more horrible in literally every single way. Hell no. The instant system works almost perfectly fine.

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