Why are we banning people for verbal toxicity anyway?

Kolma··11 votes·2,713 views

Doesn't really make sense. Any other sensible game just mutes the player permanently. Absolutely unnecessary. You'd get a much better result from permanent mutes rather than permanent bans. If you were to collect the statistics of how much toxicity goes down during a chat restriction, you'd be able to clearly see that its way more effective than banning someone from the game, who's either going to quit the game or just make a new account and then have a personal vendetta against the players and the game, causing even more toxicity. And if someone who's perma muted decides to escalate it to inting/griefing, then ban their account. Inting/griefing actually effect the game and there's not much you can really do about it other than report after the game. Someone just saying toxic things in chat might effect the game too, but there's definitely something you can do about it. It's called the mute button. I'm not really sure when league turned into club penguin, but if the goal is to reduce toxicity in league, then perma mutes is a good way to dampen it. But thats not the actual goal, people just want to make the mad people madder.

26 Comments

Umbral Regent13 votes

Any other sensible game just mutes the player permanently. Absolutely unnecessary. You'd get a much better result from permanent mutes rather than permanent bans.

Riot tried what amounted to permanent chat restrictions before - or rather, indefinitely escalating chat restrictions. Players under those longer-scale restrictions typically used all of their allotted chat for hardcore flaming, and the others typically resorted to trolling or intentionally feeding.

And that's just for chat restrictions. Take away their ability to chat entirely, and that would almost certainly result in a noticeable uptick in trolling and intentional feeding, which is not a much better result.

If you were to collect the statistics of how much toxicity goes down during a chat restriction, you'd be able to clearly see that its way more effective than banning someone from the game...

Yes, Riot does have data that says that the vast majority of players who get chat restricted don't get punished again; and those that do seldom get punished a third time, and so on, and so on.

But that doesn't change the fact that there are people who are belligerent and will continue to be toxic no matter how many warnings you give them. That being said, the fact that a majority of players tend to reform after the first (few) punishment(s) doesn't serve as a good argument for removing permanent suspensions as a punishment.

And if someone who's perma muted decides to escalate it to inting/griefing, then ban their account.

You say that like it's just that simple. It isn't.

Griefing, trolling, and intentional feeding is pretty fuckin' hard to detect, blatantly obvious cases (like running down mid) notwithstanding.

And, of course, I have to reiterate this; employing permanent mutes would result in an uptick of intentional feeders and trolls. Do you really want more trolls and feeders in exchange for belligerently toxic players being allowed to play the game despite them breaking the rules several times?

Someone just saying toxic things in chat might effect the game too, but there's definitely something you can do about it. It's called the mute button.

Muting it doesn't prevent the player from typing, though. Even if you mute them, the odds are high that they're still going to focus more on typing up a storm of vitriol - however fruitless it would be - instead of playing the game.

And in that respect, you're just as powerless to do anything about a flamer as you are about an intentional feeder.

I'm not really sure when league turned into club penguin...

This is a laughable hyperbolic statement at best, and frankly, making such a statement really only serves to damage your argument. If you're going to start making mocking comments about the game and how Riot handles Player Behavior, then I have a hard time believing that you're here for a legitimate discussion.

...but if the goal is to reduce toxicity in league, then perma mutes is a good way to dampen it.

No, permanent mutes would be a good way to narrow down the toxicity into something that's altogether harder to accurately detect. It would not reduce the toxicity; it would generally just make it worse.

But thats not the actual goal, people just want to make the mad people madder.

  1. That's a strawman argument,
  2. You're also trying to superimpose what you perceive as the community's goal over Riot's goal as an argument against permanent bans. That doesn't work.

Riot's goal is to reduce toxicity; even if the community's goal was to make toxic players madder (which it isn't, unless you can speak for millions of players all at once), that wouldn't change Riot's goals at all, so it, as an argument, is invalid.

Now to answer the question posed from the title;

Why are we banning people for verbal toxicity anyway?

Because Riot isn't going to give people umpteen chances to continue breaking the rules. At some point, they have to put their foot down and show players that continued misbehavior won't be tolerated, and the permanent ban is frankly the best way to go about doing just that.

Kolma9 votes

The amount of players that resorted to inting/griefing was a small %. The amount of players who's behavior improved from the chat bans was larger. And right now as it sits, those same types of players who resorted to feeding when during a chat ban, are doing the same thing now, knowing that they can't say much in chat without being punished. You can be as rude and patronizing as you want, but that doesn't make you right.

Umbral Regent4 votes

The amount of players that resorted to inting/griefing was a small %.

I'm going to assume you're referencing the quote you offered in response to Dynikus earlier - which, while I'm perfectly aware that it is a legit Riot quote, it would really help if you linked to the quote itself so that others could verify.

Beyond that, though;

"On Friday we decided to review the data we collected after placing chat restrictions on accounts with high levels of recorded toxicity. We were pretty pleased with the results, a large majority of players actually showed signs of less harassment and toxic behavior.

Unfortunately a small % of accounts actually increased in recorded levels of poor behavior. For these players we decided to place a 3 Day Suspension on their account."

Nowhere in the quote is intentionally feeding/trolling mentioned. It says that the majority of players reformed from a chat restriction, but a small percentage of them got worse. It doesn't say that they started trolling or intentionally feeding, so you can't really leverage it as an argument against the indefinitely-scaling CR's and the uptick of trolling/feeding that came with it.

(also; props to Hotarµ for linking that post; I'll have to C/P the link for future reference.)

And right now as it sits, those same types of players who resorted to feeding when during a chat ban, are doing the same thing now, knowing that they can't say much in chat without being punished.

The point remains; implementing permanent chat bans would simply lead to an increase of trolls and intentional feeders, since they wouldn't be able to be toxic in any other way.

And sure, ignoring all other factors, they could simply be banned when they do turn to trolling/feeding, but that brings the question; why even give them that extra chance to break the rules? Why not cut out the middle-man and issue the permanent ban when they've broken the rules regarding chat for the umpteenth time?

Kolma9 votes

So lets say chat bans don't work. Now what? If this is the case, then I guess there's not really any hope for the game as far as dealing with toxicity. Cool, good talk. Glad we came to that conclusion. Because as the game stands now, its incredibly toxic.

zPOOPz7 votes

that's what permanent bans are for

Kolma9 votes

Except its not working.

zPOOPz6 votes

how is it not working? Now if you tell me perma banned people will just create new account and be toxic, that's true. Rito has little viable ways to prevent people from registering for a new free account because of their free-to-play model. However, of all the perma banned people, only some will create new account. Many will just say fuck this, I don't want to invest my time into this game anymore and leave League forever. That is how permanent bans work to get rid of most of the toxic people. If you continued to give toxic people a chance to play their main by just banning their chat, 100% of them will continue to play and be toxic in other ways that is much harder to get rid of them.

It also comes down to the question of why should Rito continues to give toxic people more chances to ruin games after so many warnings and leniency?

R107 Games11 votes

It's simply because the community is that sensetive. They'd rather chose to be offended and consciously decide to keep reading text from the player that flames them, instead of muting or ignoring and moving the hell on.

Some people are mentally incapable of doing the bare minimum of dealing with a flamer, which is why Riot punishes it despite the mute button

True Garen8 votes

This is a good idea. It's my own policy in similar matters. Especially where Riot allows the players to just make new accounts, giving them a permanent mute would tend to keep some of them in their current, invested account, just not talking anymore.

Besides, they can't offend anybody anymore. The more that I think about this, I really need to wonder why they don't just do it this way.

CharDeeMcDenniz3 votes

it has been explained 1,00 times on this board

RIOT tried that, it failed miserably bc when you're a toxic person, and you can't flame in chat, most just started trolling in game instead...

Hotaru explained it in detail...again...below

bad idea

Dynikus5 votes

Doesn't really make sense. Any other sensible game just mutes the player permanently.

Yeah, that's bullshit. Can you name some that actually do that? Riot also tried that before, it doesn't work. Your arguments are based off of nothing, and actually have proof to the contrary of what you're suggesting is true.

Kolma9 votes

Implying that what they're doing now is working? I've been playing this game for a long time and I can assure you they've never implemented a perma mute function into the game.

Dynikus3 votes

{quoted}

Implying that what they're doing now is working? I've been playing this game for a long time and I can assure you they've never implemented a perma mute function into the game.

Apparently not that long. They never inplemented a true permanent mute function, but chat restrictions used to stack I think 4? years ago, to the point where some players had hundreds/thousands of games worth of chat restrictions. A lot of said players would either use what little messages they did have to be toxic, or would just resort to trolling in other ways that are generally harder for any automated system to pick up.

Kolma9 votes

You can type "apparently not that long" until your fingers fall off. Fact is, I have been, and I wasn't referring to chat restrictions, I was referring to a full on chat ban.

Kolma9 votes

I'd like to see this "proof" you speak of though. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Hotarµ8 votes

I'm not really sure when league turned into club penguin, but if the goal is to reduce toxicity in league, then perma mutes is a good way to dampen it.

Scaling chat restrictions and permanent chat bans were removed because they led to players griefing through other methods like intentionally feeding, AFKing, or griefing. Here's the most relevant quote from that article.

"The observed behavior of those which were banned was that they used what little chat they had in game to harass and berate others. In other cases they decided to feed or play against their own team in order to "prove a point"._ -Riot WookieCookie _

Inting/griefing actually effect the game and there's not much you can really do about it other than report after the game.

Toxicity can effect games as well, it can have a huge impact on someone's mentality towards their individual game or League as a whole.

Yes, I can mute my team, but I know 3 of them are insulting me anyway and they're just out to get me even though I apologize for my small mistake. I'm being picked on, why would I want to keep trying in that match knowing everyone else is just ragging on me and why would I want to continue playing League as a whole if people can do this without consequences?

That is a totally reasonable scenario where toxicity can negatively impact a player, and it happens more than you think.

Call me an SJW, a snowflake, say this is Club Penguin, use whatever little buzzwords you want. Something you need to accept is that people don't want to be insulted when they make mistakes in a video game. Even in a competitive environment, you should treat other people with respect, not like dirt.

Kolma8 votes

[deleted]

Hotarµ8 votes

I never said anything about sjws or snowflakes, you did.

They're just common responses for this board, you still had one of the ones I listed.

The fact that you brought that up unwarranted kind of highlights your insecurities on that matter. You're so defensive. If that doesn't show you the current state of this community, then I don't know what does.

Alternatively, I'm tired of people thinking it's acceptable to treat others like garbage and their only reasoning being that other people need to stop being sensitive/SJWs/snowflakes/etc.

You seem like one of the nicer guys, yet even you seem to instantly resort a rude tone.

You know what?

You're right. I took a really passive-aggressive and rude tone in that response. I've been getting tired of dealing with the same conversation day-in, day-out, but I shouldn't let that dictate my attitude, especially in my first response. I apologize for doing that and I hope you can look past it.

Kei1432 votes

{quoted}

You're right. I took a really passive-aggressive and rude tone in that response. I've been getting tired of dealing with the same conversation day-in, day-out, but I shouldn't let that dictate my attitude, especially in my first response.

This is the reason why I stopped getting into debates with others on what should be punishable.

Nowadays I just let people know how the system works. If they don't like it, though luck.

Kolma3 votes

I never said anything about sjws or snowflakes, you did. The fact that you brought that up unwarranted kind of highlights your insecurities on that matter. You're so defensive. If that doesn't show you the current state of this community, then I don't know what does. In my opinion, the game's toxicity is worse than its ever been before. You're a good example. You seem like one of the nicer guys, yet even you seem to instantly resort a rude tone. And why? Because I mentioned club penguin in a post about perma bans? Calm down.

Kolma9 votes

Here's a quote from an old post:

"On Friday we decided to review the data we collected after placing chat restrictions on accounts with high levels of recorded toxicity. We were pretty pleased with the results, a large majority of players actually showed signs of less harassment and toxic behavior.

Unfortunately a small % of accounts actually increased in recorded levels of poor behavior. For these players we decided to place a 3 Day Suspension on their account."

This pretty much backs up my point. Yes there was a small increase of players who resorted to further toxicity through non verbal offenses, but for those cases, issuing account bans is the next step forward.

GatekeeperTDS4 votes

This thread again.

Whether you believe it or not, people don't enjoy having negativity in their games. Riot wants people who can't behave and can't reform to stop playing the game. And since you're dismissive of everyone else in this thread, there's no need for you to reply to me. Your arguments have been put forth thousands of times, they don't hold water, and nobody wants to cater to people who can't behave. If that's you, too bad. Find another game.

NagatoFan13 votes

I've actually contacted Riot Support SEVERAL times asking them to give my account a perm chat restriction and basically was told no every time because "the player is responsible for their actions" like hi, I'm literally here TRYING and Riot is refusing to help me (note I was only ever toxic in chat I never intentionally fed or even left the game I just trash talk).

hrooza dota 1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't really make sense. Any other sensible game just mutes the player permanently.

dota 2 do 6 months bans now for those who get reported often and when i say reported often i mean any kind of report can result in that.

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