This is mind boggling

CurlyBastard·Oct 30, 2019·1 votes·1,929 views

I've started an account on another server for the sake of being able to play on it when I'm invited outside of EUNE (the server account posting this is on). However, I find the games to be incredibly toxic and I have no will to play alone on that account ever again.

Why is it toxic? It's simple! The games consist of mostly permabanned players who can only start anew if they don't have an alternate account. Games are unenjoyable at best and Malzahar sucking out your life force with his ult at worst. The mind boggling thing about this is the Riot's comment how they don't wanna make an isolated island for permabanned players (the idea that looks like something csgo did with trust factor) yet they've done exactly that by forcing them to make new accounts in order to play. You'd be astonished to find out just how many toxic players and leavers are there... I've even seen people get permad before 30..

Doesn't this show that permabans don't work well long-term? Imagine if it was a newbie who played with a permabanned player, they would never touch the game ever again I assure you.

Something's gotta change..

15 Comments

Kei143Oct 30, 20192 votes

One thing you have to realise is that they match people whom have experience against others whom have experience.

So the chances of a brand new player matched with those permabanned players is pretty low.

CurlyBastardOct 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

One thing you have to realise is that they match people whom have experience against others whom have experience.

So the chances of a brand new player matched with those permabanned players is pretty low.

That I understand, I've never seen a newbie in these games, true. It could indeed be that the system is working as intended... Or they just don't keep playing after experiencing playing besides toxic teammates? The system does not know whether or not you're experienced at the game when you queue up for the first time.

Sinful SuccubusOct 30, 20191 votes

It may not show it but it's smart enough to know the difference after a couple of games. It then sorts players accordingly.

Kei143Oct 30, 20191 votes

Even just playing through tutorial, the match making AI will learn alot. The game can read everything you do. Click speed, click location, keyboard shortcuts, speed of using the combos, familiarity of the map. The game can already see a tonne in the tutorials.

Try start a new account and play tutorial like a real new player. Do click and hold for mouse character movements, point and read then click to the skill and then not target anything until a short delay later. Hover your skill icons and read over them. After that go play a match made game, you'll probably see the players there will already be very different.

rujitraOct 30, 20192 votes

Unfortunately there is no good way to prevent people from having multiple accounts in a free to play environment without inaccurately punishing innocent people as well.

You could do an IP ban - but they are easily circumvented (button on modem or go to modem homepage in browser and you get a new one) and have collateral damage (ex: college dorms/internet cafes big ones).

You could try and do a "hardware ID ban" - but this would again be possible to circumvent (harder, but still not that hard), and could have collateral damage again (if two people buy the same "off the shelf" laptop, as an example, and use the same mouse, then they'd theoretically have the same "hardware ID").

You could try linking to phone numbers (as is done for clash), but there are still many people that don't have a phone number, and many that have more than one. Plus, a burner phone at walmart costs what, $10? So for $10 I can get a new number for long enough to get a new account then throw it out.

You could try limiting emails... but hell, I have like 6 different ones for various reasons (that are all in use right now and necessary for various things) - and they're free.

You could require a unique credit card... but that'd hurt people without a credit/debit card (who may still buy RP from in person cards at stores), and many people have more than one.

None of this shows that permanent bans don't work. Sure, nobody says they're perfect - but you can't prevent these sorts of people from returning to the game. However, Riot has said that their data suggests that more people than not simply stop playing (or are completely reformed) after a permanent ban - meaning that in the majority of cases, it does work.

And it's a hell of a lot better than any other option that encourages people to keep playing when they refuse to behave.

CurlyBastardOct 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately there is no good way to prevent people from having multiple accounts in a free to play environment without inaccurately punishing innocent people as well.

You could do an IP ban - but they are easily circumvented (button on modem or go to modem homepage in browser and you get a new one) and have collateral damage (ex: college dorms/internet cafes big ones).

You could try and do a "hardware ID ban" - but this would again be possible to circumvent (harder, but still not that hard), and could have collateral damage again (if two people buy the same "off the shelf" laptop, as an example, and use the same mouse, then they'd theoretically have the same "hardware ID").

You could try linking to phone numbers (as is done for clash), but there are still many people that don't have a phone number, and many that have more than one. Plus, a burner phone at walmart costs what, $10? So for $10 I can get a new number for long enough to get a new account then throw it out.

You could try limiting emails... but hell, I have like 6 different ones for various reasons (that are all in use right now and necessary for various things) - and they're free.

You could require a unique credit card... but that'd hurt people without a credit/debit card (who may still buy RP from in person cards at stores), and many people have more than one.

None of this shows that permanent bans don't work. Sure, nobody says they're perfect - but you can't prevent these sorts of people from returning to the game. However, Riot has said that their data suggests that more people than not simply stop playing (or are completely reformed) after a permanent ban - meaning that in the majority of cases, it does work.

And it's a hell of a lot better than any other option that encourages people to keep playing when they refuse to behave.

Instead of making an isolated island for permabanned people and innocent people who are just unlucky to make a new account and queue up at the same time, they could just make an isolated island for permabanneds and only for them lol.

One thing I've noticed is that I myself became toxic as shit but luckily evaded any punishment. If they make an isolated island, they could make it a reform progress island rather than isolated island rofl.

Permabanning is so often today it's just not gonna do its job anymore. Simple as that.

Sinful SuccubusOct 30, 20192 votes

Why is it riot's problem to go the extra mile to educate assholes on not being assholes instead of banning them and tending to the remaining crowd? If they wanna waste their time making new accounts or buying them off ebay, because their ego is so frail it can't allow internet disagreements to happen without being toxic to people they met 5 minutes ago, it's their problem!

rujitraOct 30, 20192 votes

And those permabanned players would then just make a new account anyway since they wouldn't want to play with toxicity.

Prisoners' Island does not work. Period. Many studies - both theoretical and studies of specific games which have/had this sort of system have confirmed this.

CurlyBastardOct 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And those permabanned players would then just make a new account anyway since they wouldn't want to play with toxicity.

Prisoners' Island does not work. Period. Many studies - both theoretical and studies of specific games which have/had this sort of system have confirmed this.

They would make it and would end up in an isolated island again. Honestly, only truly reformed players would be able to get 20 levels in an isolated island without being punished. It shouldn't be an easy path for reforming..

rujitraOct 30, 20191 votes

They've tried things like this (without the island) before. They did the "level 20 challenge" where players would be permitted to make a new account monitored by Riot and then if they got to level 20 without a punishment get their old account back. Only 5% of players succeeded in this challenge.

They repeated it again - allowing permanently banned players an unban with conditions - within the past year. Given that there was no expansion of this program and it was ended pretty quickly, it seems safe to assume the results were similar.

Data heavily shows that players who reach a permanent ban largely do not care about reforming and will never reform. It is not beneficial for Riot to allow the 95/100 players who were permanently banned to keep going just for the 5 that couldn't listen to the warnings.

And no, Riot isn't going to just add more punishment tiers/more chances - they've had more in the past and they didn't work. By the time someone gets a 14 day ban (after two chat restrictions), they're either going to reform (and avoid a permanent ban, making it moot) or they won't (in which case a permanent ban is less than 5% likely to reform them).

TheMegaBeaverOct 30, 20191 votes

You're forgetting the obvious outlier though. The chosen one who made it out of PermabanLand. The one and only, the Reformed, T1 :)

rujitraOct 30, 20191 votes

He did not get a single permanent ban revoked. He simply was allowed to stream again without his accounts being ban on sight.

Tele IIOct 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You're forgetting the obvious outlier though. The chosen one who made it out of PermabanLand. The one and only, the Reformed, T1 :)

Everyone who has made a new account has made it out of permabanland by that logic. No account of Tyler1's was ever unbanned.

TheMegaBeaverOct 30, 20191 votes

You're playing League of Legends. If you find yourself in a game without a single toxic person, you: 1) Are probably the toxic person of the group and you just don't realize it... ;) or 2) Should go buy a lottery ticket because you are the luckiest person on the planet.

Tele IIOct 31, 20191 votes

No one is questioning that they actually are mostly permabanned players? I mean, you may be right, but it sounds like an assumption. Like, I wonder what the actual percentage of permabanned players you played with, is. Im not saying they definitely arent, but how do you know? Did you ask each and every toxic player if they've been permabanned before? I know it sounds like I'm reaching to find some kind of flaw in your arguement, but I really do just prefer actual data instead of assumptions. Unfortunately, Riot doesnt exactly openly share that kind of data.