My brilliant plan for a better level 1-30 experience

ModWuks·Dec 20, 2015·81 votes·5,429 views

The amount of time a player needs to invest to get from level 1 to level 30 is considerable. However, if you win more games, you'll level up faster than if you lose. This creates a hyper competitive atmosphere at level 1-30 for most players, and they'll try their hardest to play to win rather than play to learn or play to have fun, defeating the purpose of the barrier between level 1-30.

Now, if we reduced the difference of experience between wins and losses as players level, I think that players would be less inclined to try hard and do everything in their power to win. This might lead to a reduction in toxicity, a reduction in negative experiences for new players, and generally a better experience for everyone overall. These XP adjustments would only affect normal, player vs. player Summoners Rift queues, so there'll still be plenty of time to identify bots as they level and ban 'em out.

Your thoughts are always appreciated :) Thanks for reading!

97 Comments

JubbinautDec 20, 201538 votes

Honestly, I don't know why Summoner experience is dependent on w/l in the first place - seems silly to me.

In fact, most of the leveling experience feels very much like unnecessary gating at this point. I think the whole thing deserves another look. Among other things, I don't see any particular benefit to slowing the leveling rate as players get higher. It seems like a holdover from MMOs that serves no real purpose here.

UtilityPunkDec 20, 20153 votes

I've seen this concept show up in more than one thread, so it has creedence and support. At most, maybe 100-200 matches and having 16 champs should be the gate. Ranked is where you are judged by w/l.

SolidBabyDec 22, 20151 votes

Agreed. For players who don't intend to play ranked I think level is rather meaningless. For those who do, achieving level 30 is just a chore. Also, for new players reaching level 30 is rarely sufficient for being successful in ranked. Most likely, those players will rapidly plummet towards the bottom of bronze.

I think Riot should sell level 30 accounts. Possibly restricting this to only players who currently have an account in Gold or above or something like that. That alone would do more to improve player experience in the low levels because it would get a good deal of smurfs out of that queue. Me killing a legit level 5 ten times in ten minutes is probably far more negative for experience overall than people being highly competitive.

MelledoneusDec 22, 20151 votes

Failure is the best teacher.

waspcreaturesxDec 21, 201513 votes

I may be part of the unpopular opinion but leveling to 30 was not bad whatsoever. I just got to 30 about two weeks ago, and before that the grind didn't bother me at all. I was more focused on leveling my mastery scores with various champions that I liked. I didn't even save or start buying any runes until I hit level 30, and I did fine against players with full rune pages.

The only REAL problem with being a new player are smurf accounts. Other than that, all other players dealt with the same shitty tutorial and shitty recommended items. At the same time, you can't give new players everything. You can't just automatically recommend them the best build path for their character, as it is constantly changing and it's something they need to learn on their own. A player who wants to be better should know to look up guides. Watch streamers. Watch YouTube videos. Do your studying. It's a hard game to adjust to. It takes a long time to know EVERYTHING. Ultimately, I don't think the tutorial is THAT bad. It leaves a lot to be desired, but I don't feel like I was incredibly lost as a newbie.

The Internet is a powerful thing. If you're dissatisfied with the information the game gives you, look up more.

As far as experience gains, I personally didn't even realize wins gave you more exp. I didn't usually look at the numbers and leveling happened pretty fast anyways. I feel like a lot of people have the natural "play to win" competitive attitude regardless. Even if wins gave the same exp as losses, a lot of people would still be focused on winning. It's in our nature. There has to be SOME reward for winning. It makes sense to me at least that when you show you're a decent player (by winning a lot of games) you progress to level 30 faster. If you're a bad player and lose an obnoxious amount, the game merely holds you back because you have more to learn. When you learn what you're doing wrong, you'll fix it and be on your path to winning.

TLDR; The new user experience is not as bad as people make it out to be. New players have extra sources they can take advantage of (Google, YouTube, twitch). Runes don't make THAT much of a difference. And more exp for winning encourages people who are getting the hang of the game, and holds back those who have more to learn. It's there for a reason.

5000000000000000Dec 20, 20158 votes

Wouldn't this also make more bot accounts, since they can gain level quickly even if they lose?

ModWuksDec 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't this also make more bot accounts, since they can gain level quickly even if they lose?

No, sir. The XP changes wouldn't be rolled out to Co-Op vs. AI queues; it'd only be applied to Player vs. Player queues.

Maximum MordeDec 20, 20153 votes

Clearly you have never been in dominion or twisted treeline pvp queues

ModWuksDec 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=caA0EOxf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-20T21:41:48.016+0000)

Clearly you have never been in dominion or twisted treeline pvp queues

*Summoner Rift PVP Queues. My apologies. I misspoke.

Masterofchaos999Dec 21, 20151 votes

This is off topic, but what is the "arbiter" title on your profile from, I don't remember ever seeing it before.

ModWuksDec 21, 20151 votes

This thread should clarify most of your questions :)

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/opVBd7rZ-introducing-the-arbiters

Masterofchaos999Dec 22, 20151 votes

Thanks, I never saw that post.

JubbinautDec 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No, sir. The XP changes wouldn't be rolled out to Co-Op vs. AI queues; it'd only be applied to Player vs. Player queues.

To be fair, bot accounts aren't exclusive to Co-Op. I encounter them regularly in TT on my new smurf, and hear rather a lot about them being common to Dominion PvP as well.

I do recognize that you isolated Summoner's Rift, but I think it's a valid concern that the people using bots may shift to whatever mode offers the quickest overall lvling experience for them. I also don't like the idea of forcing players into a particular mode to get that same lvling experience.

IcyPepperDec 20, 20154 votes

I like it. It might slow down smurf leveling a bit, but I don't think Riot really caters to that and honestly, if it's a big deal they can buy an XP boost. They already have an actual experience advantage over new players, they don't need mechanics to cater to them.

CindikleDec 21, 20154 votes

I'd be fine with this. As long as Ranked restrictions were changed.

The time a new player spends leveling is to learn the game from the bottom up.

But there a number of problems with this

The tutorial is bad and outdated.
Recommended items are bad and outdated.
Toxic players make it hard for new players to learn. This is a game you will learn by trial and error. You have to understand why you do something because thinking on your own is a huge importance.
Team play and how to teamfight isn't really learned well. Especially now. I can't imagine trying to learn anything past laning phase with how snowbally this game is right now.

There's a lot this game needs to help newer players. Leveling to 30 or not really doesn't change that.

Personally I'd rather see leveling done away with.

Make two MMR's. One is tied to the account, the other is tied to a champion. Playing a new champion allows you to face lower MMR enemies, but not completely new players.

Rune slots would be fully unlocked with a few pre-set pages for AP, AD and Tank. I believe this means everyone will require a free page. Perhaps each champion will have a recommended rune page setup for rolls on their champion page. With a note about them only being a guideline.

Ranked will now require the same 16 champions, but all of these champions must be a mastery rank 2 a set # of unlocked T3 runes. Maybe enough to fill all 3 of the free rune pages.

With this a new player can explore all they want. A twink can focus on a champion to get ahead. Which will quickly separate them from the new players. Ranked is restricted enough that a new player cannot jump right in.

iainB85Dec 22, 20154 votes

My brilliant plan for a better level 1-30 experience: Remove it completely.

Seriously. It serves no purpose. Let people just start their account with access to all the summoner spells and start actually learning how to play the game for real. Start them out at a "newb mmr" and adjust based on performance. What is the value of starting to learn the game without Flash?

Why even have this grind leveling up system other than League is an F2P game and Riot needs to milk money out of people buying IP and EXP boosts on alternate accounts?

invisiblecat1Dec 22, 20151 votes

^ :3

Mael broDec 20, 20152 votes

It's pointless you can't stop smurfing. Eventually a new player will run into a more experienced player with an already existing account and be greatly shocked with the community of this game.

ZenaniiDec 20, 20152 votes

I've been trying to get a friend into LoL and he's been really put off by the initial grind. He's familiar with mobas, but facing off against opponents with extra stats from runes and masteries can be extremely discouraging.

A couple of suggestions:

Make leveling linear (same ammount of exp needed each level) Allow players to chose which new summoner spell to unlock on level up (playing against other people who have flash when you don't feels absolutely horrible, and I find it ridiculous you literally can't play jungle before level 5). Allow tier 3 runes to be purchased from lvl 1, but you need to unlock each rune slot for tier 3 (in the same way you currently unlock rune slots). You do not need to unlock rune slots to slot tier 1 runes anymore. (Makes it more fair and also allows players to play around with different rune page layouts while unlocking slots for tier 3) Make tier 1 rune equivalents for every tier 3 rune (there are currently a ton missing) Remove tier 2 runes (they're just traps for wasting IP and just lead to over all frustration).

About the original topic: I don't feel there is a need to make losses more forgiving and wins less rewarding. If your matchmaking is working oka-ish (and I know, smurfs kinad messess it up in lower levels) players should be able to maintain ~40% win rate at the very least. If players feel they're progressing too slowly it would seem to me it's a problem with the overall progression system as opposed to the rewards for winning. Basically if you can't enjoy LoL before reaching 30, you shouldn't focus on making the grind easier, you should make the grind less frustrating in the first place.

JubbinautDec 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Make leveling linear (same amount of exp needed each level)

I don't understand why this isn't already the case.

Allow players to chose which new summoner spell to unlock on level up (playing against other people who have flash when you don't feels absolutely horrible, and I find it ridiculous you literally can't play jungle before level 5).

I like this idea.

Remove tier 2 runes (they're just traps for wasting IP and just lead to over all frustration).

I could be mistaken, but I thought they already did this?

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

Why not remove runes completely for under 30's? it would make it easier to focus on learning game play mechanics.

Speaking as someone who has only been playing LOL for 5 days and is only lvl 7 ... I don't mind the slow leveling. To be honest it took me about 4 levels to even realize there was such a thing as levels. I actually play quite a few custom bot games that give zero xp/ip because that way I don't need to deal with trolls and toxics who want to just win fast so they can get their xp and move on to the next game. By playing the custom bot games I have the luxury of taking my time to actually learn the mechanics of the game.

I really wish that the basic beginners tutorial had covered the availability of custom games before I got abused by the smurfs who saw me as holding up their progress. But, thanks to the helpful peeps on this board i was shown where the custom games were and now I am happy. For me learning the basics of a champion in privacy is important ... I will bring them out to play when I can comfortably manage rotations and such.

Awkward CouchDec 21, 20152 votes

I really like these. Personally (and again this is just my opinion so feel free to disagree) I don't like T1 runes either. If I am a new player, I wouldn't know that T1 runes aren't really good. I feel like they are kind of noob trap items as well. But then again that's just me.

The other suggestions I agree with 100!

DeynaTaggerungDec 22, 20151 votes

Tier 1 and 2 runes were made really really cheap approximately a year ago so the issue of wasting IP isn't really a big deal anymore.

BlueThingamajigDec 20, 20152 votes

I think its too simple of a solution. I think it would make for an interesting experiment for Riot to try, and while obv I don't have any proof, I don't think it would make a difference for lower tiers.

Edit: What I mean is that I don't think XP is a motivating factor for most early level players. The idea and satisfaction of winning is more significant, imo, rather than any number at low level play.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think its too simple of a solution. I think it would make for an interesting experiment for Riot to try, and while obv I don't have any proof, I don't think it would make a difference for lower tiers.

Edit: What I mean is that I don't think XP is a motivating factor for most early level players. The idea and satisfaction of winning is more significant, imo, rather than any number at low level play.

you are exactly right .. for beginning players who are genuine noobs the two most important things are learning to play the game well and having some wins to feel good. leveling at early stages is a secondary consideration .. I didn't even know we got levels until I reached lvl 4 and noticed the xp circle thing.

Clockwork MadokaDec 21, 20152 votes

1: Overhaul the rune system. I'm level 25 and have spent over 10k IP on runes, and I honestly wish I could have gotten a new champ instead, rather than being forced to get runes so i can be at all competent.

2: Have all summoner spells unlocked right from the get-go, and give something else has a level reward (forcing people to get below-average spells is bad. You are also unable to jungle due to the lack of smite)

3: Rather being a win of the day, add new possible ways to get the daily IP. Not sure how, but it would be nice to not be forced to play bots if I want to guarantee I get the IP.

I also have a friend who has been at a disadvantage in every game we play for the reasons stated above. He couldn't jungle for a long time because he didn't have smite. Laning was difficult because he didn't have runes as well.

BaculusDec 21, 20152 votes

Winning players should be 'rewarded' with bigger numbers. Both XP and IP. It's silly to receive the same compensation regardless of performance. It would also make botting more lucrative.

You also overlook that, regardless, players will average out to a 50/50 win/loss rate so this won't change much at all as far as pacing goes. The end result will just be making winning be a little less fun.

Immortal MadManDec 21, 20152 votes

no. Bad players deserve little exp because they are noob!! riot needs to punish them also with bans if they lose like 5 games in a row.

waspcreaturesxDec 21, 20152 votes

This is so obviously a troll post, but even the best of players have losing streaks. No matter how good of a player you are, you cannot carry a whole team if they're useless. I've had times (even recently when my top lane fed Illaoi 12 kills in the first 10 minutes) where someone gets so fed so quickly that you really can't do anything to respond. It happens. People have bad games. Sometimes multiple in a row.

If this wasn't obviously a troll post, I'd have to insult you for your ignorance.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

Haha the funny thing is that being a new player I didn't even know what feeding was .. so it would have been pointless telling me to stop it. I saw them telling someone else to stop feeding in one of my early games and thought it meant they were popping a lot of health potions. I guess this is part of the problem with Smurfs .. they assume that everyone else understands what they mean .. like telling someone to go bot ... in my first games I was like WTF do they mean? This is a bot game. it is pointless getting mad at people who have no understanding of what you mean or why. That is why I think that there should be special games for genuine noobs that have much less xp and focus far more on learning to play the game. The game could fill in bots for empty player spots after 10 minutes of waiting for a game ... I know that the custom games you can make this .. but the first few times i played custom games I found it confusing because they don't limit choices like bot games and as a real noob I had too many options available.

waspcreaturesxJan 7, 20161 votes

I just saw this so I figured I'd respond now. Bot games are as basic as it gets where you can play a midlander top or bot and it could still work and vice versa. There are YouTube videos (I believe Riot has one but I'm not entirely sure if it was them) that explain how to play the game and what "bot" means. As far as feeding goes, it's like a slang term, like a lot of other league terms. No one will necessarily teach them to you, you'll learn them as you go. No one explained to you what selfie meant when that term started up, you figured it out (although it is quite obvious). I just think the problem is that people don't take advantage of the Internet. There are guides, YouTube videos, and a bunch more stuff that will literally teach you how to play the game.

VLsW4Li0eMDec 21, 20152 votes

What about the many people who play to win, who could get swamped by people who are just levelling up smurf or extra accounts (or even website services levelling up accounts to sell) who don't give 2 hecks about a victory, and ruin the game by not trying at all because they know they'll get the same experience?

I think it's good to encourage a competitive atmosphere and place more reward on a win. Just my 2 cents.

KorilloDec 21, 20152 votes

I think they need to cut the time it takes to level a new account by at least half as well. It takes about 150 hours to level an account right now and that's too long imo.

EvilDustManDec 21, 20152 votes

I agree, Wuks. In fact, I would go even further. You need to play a certain amount of Bots games before you can unlock PVP. It would help build MMR. If you had to play, say, 7 bots games, just to get the concepts down, the person with 18/0/5 is pretty obviously a smurf, they can go off with the other smurfs.

I think this talk about not making good players is a problem Wuks is trying to address. I notice several people worrying about having MORE NOOBS. Well, they won't be in your MMR if you are so worried. And maybe Riot can start adding better guides for playing. Blizzard started making more indepth guides to playing their classes.

Maybe Riot, around level 25 or so, should offer links to guides on more complex concepts for the players to start mastering.

This is a game, guys, there shouldn't be a huge grind and a system mastery barrier.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

The thing is that the bot games come in 3 levels .. I have said this before and will keep saying it. If your skill level is already higher than the average noob, either because you are awesome or because you are a smurf, then play the intermediate bot games ... don't play the introductory bot games .. they are specifically designed for actual beginners to learn gameplay. My kill to being killed ratio has dramatically improved since my first bot game, but i still don't feel confident enough in my abilities to venture out from intro to beginner bot games. For smurfs who want to get through the leveling fast they should go to the higher level bot games so they are playing (generally) with more experienced players. leave the intro games for those who truly do need to learn.

ExcaIibur MorganDec 22, 20152 votes

I don't know about other people but I was playing to learn, not win. I would have liked to take even longer to hit 30 so I could learn more before I hit the difficulty curve. Even after hitting 30, I didn't feel like I accomplished anything and I was put up against players that actually kind of knew how to play the game.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

Well said ... I am in the very noob stages of the game now and I would actually like the progress to be slower so I don't have to face people who have been playing a long while until I am more confident in how to actually play.

ExcaIibur MorganDec 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well said ... I am in the very noob stages of the game now and I would actually like the progress to be slower so I don't have to face people who have been playing a long while until I am more confident in how to actually play.

I'd gladly help you out but you're in EU. :'( The noob stages of the game is so uncomfortable, especially when you've never played a moba before (me).

ModWuksDec 27, 20152 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/59f85caa53caa9c3921b66704d20e74b.png

I mean:

22:39 game length for 78XP (Intermediate Co-Op vs. AI Win) 45:31 game length for 86XP (Normal Summoner's Rift Loss)

Deep Terror NamiDec 20, 20151 votes

Do you know how HotS does the "First Win of the Day" bonuses? Instead of just winning one match a day, it gives you a "quest" each day that consists of playing 2-8 games. Up to three quests can be saved, and you don't have to win the match.

There are several benefits of managing daily bonuses this way. What do you think of it?

Edit: You can also complete overlapping requirements of multiple quests in a single match (such as play mid lane and play mage, you just play a mage in mid lane to do both at once).

ModWuksDec 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=caA0EOxf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-20T21:53:56.216+0000)

Do you know how HotS does the "First Win of the Day" bonuses? Instead of just winning one match a day, it gives you a "quest" each day that consists of playing 2-8 games. Up to three quests can be saved, and you don't have to win the match.

There are several benefits of managing daily bonuses this way. What do you think of it?

Sounds like a good idea! I find myself often just playing a bot game when my First Win of the Day comes up, just so it doesn't push itself back (because for some reason, I always go on a losing streak when my First Win is up). :(

AdanYEvaDec 21, 20151 votes

RIOT! HIRE THIS MAN!

TDubHDec 21, 20152 votes

Ironically, if you look at his name the highlighting shows that hes a community moderator, that riot has already accepted his volunteering to the community.

No surrenderDec 21, 20151 votes

Between 29th and 30th level there is many times a BIG gap. Your system have one flaw - it is not balanced.

Let's say that John has been playing for entire weekend, he lost 90% of games, but he like this game so much that he started to read a lot of guides, tips, streams, etc. etc.

Now when John came back to game he is like 500% more effective than he was two days ago - it is not balanced. And yes, I think that this is possible to get a 500% increased performance for newbies by reading internet.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

I don't necessarily agree that newbies can get that much advantage by reading/watching internet stuff. I have been doing that since before I started playing the game and for the most part found it confusing because:

Everyone you read has a different opinion and often contradict each other,
They use jargon that beginners don't necessarily understand
They are actually geared towards higher level play

For example I have been watching some video's of how to play Ryze well and they are telling me to take flash which I dont have available to me yet and some videos say play Ryze in mid lane while others say play in bottom lane ... or don't even say that but say play something with letters .. I think ADC or ADS or something, whatever that means. And many of the videos talk about jungling and being ganked .. yet then don't seem to happen in the intro bot games.

There is a distinct lack of good tutorial videos for actual beginners ... ones who don't understand the jargon, have no idea at all about the game and don't yet have the better summoner abilities.

S H A Y C 0Dec 21, 20151 votes

This wont stop the toxic tryhard smurfs from ruining the new player experience. i think that should be addressed while were on topic.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

Maybe Riot should give new accounts a choice when they sign up ... faster leveling and less support or more support and slower leveling. That will immediately sort out the smurfs from those who genuinely need to learn how to play the game. It won't stop some newbies from making the wrong choice and going fast when they don't know how to play, but it might stop the smurfs from choosing the slower way and ruining the game for those who do want/need to learn properly.

S H A Y C 0Dec 23, 20151 votes

its a thought...personally, i say not allowing multiple accounts, or new accounts should be forced to be tied to their main account and they should start at the elo their main account is in, maybe even just start at level 30. And new players cant skip to the end because they have to link it to their other account. And the same way they catch boosters they can catch multi's that are supposed to be linked that arent.

NyantheDec 23, 20151 votes

How about a special program for experienced players to get bonus xp/ip by helping out a newbie. Maybe make special games where people can play like that, with a special pause for tutorial/discussion function. That way if you see someone struggling to play a game they clearly are not ready for you can earn a bit of extra something by taking the time to help them out instead of insulting them.

TenzosanJan 7, 20161 votes

The problem with leveling isn't so much the experience; It is more the recycled toxic players. Players who have lost their accounts are making new ones and starting over just as toxic as before. They fill the lower levels with hate speech and show them the ugly side of the community before the players even get to the ranking scene. Leveling in itself is a learning process and teaches the more valuable things like performing well and winning garners a better reward therefore try your best even if your best falls short. But again, with recycled toxic players flooding the gates and creating a negative experience for lower levels only spreads that toxic behavior around faster.