Perma bans, toxic players, ban system, suggestion for unbanning accounts.

Frøst··2 votes·1,630 views

Hello, a little less than a year ago my main account got permanently banned, I was playing on that account for about 6 years I think. I am still playing League and I think I deserve a chance to get my account unbanned because I haven't gotten any bans since then and I believe I have reformed. I never got any bans on any other game except League. I really hope Riots sees this and takes it into consideration, I hope they will be open minded while reading this. I am going to be completely honest and won't be hiding the stuff that I got banned for. This is going to be a long post but I hope Riot sees this. I'm going to be saying my own opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. You should read this whole thing before commenting. I don't think Riot should even be perma banning accounts for being toxic, I mean it's the internet, of course people are gonna insult you, I think there should be a perma chat ban for that and a perma ban for trolling, but whatever. In this post I'm going to be talking about: - kinds of toxic players - what I think a toxic player is - why I got banned - ban system - suggestions about giving players access to their perma banned accounts

I won't be censoring any words because I don't intend to censor my own words.

1. Kinds of Toxic Players.

There is a lot of types of toxic players, I'm gonna be talking about some of them:

  • Griefers/trollers - those are the kinds of players who are really immature and if something doesn't go their way they are gonna go AFK, intentionally feed, steal someones farm and other stuff to make their own team lose.
  • Generally toxic people - those are the ones that blame you for their own mistakes, if you don't do what they want they will start flaming, if you're doing bad they will say "sell skin", report for inting or other stuff to tilt you but aren't saying any kind of of "bad" words so the system doesn't ban them that easily, to me those are the worst type of toxic players because if I'm already doing bad and I want to get better at the game I'm already pissed off at myself for doing stupid mistakes and I don't need anyone telling me I need to stop playing or other stuff.
  • People that flame hard when being flamed by toxic people - I was one of those, to me this kind of people isn't really toxic but starts flaming really hard when somebody tilts them.

2. What I Think a Toxic Player Is.

I think that toxic players are those who start flaming other people, not the ones who defend themselves with flaming instead of muting the toxic person. That's just my opinion because I am a jungle main and we all know jungle gets blamed a lot, so before when I saw someone telling me I'm boosted or shit, I really got tilted and I needed to write something back to them (that was me before, now when someone blames me and I know it's not my fault I just find it funny how stupid they are and I don't flame them I just mute them or write something that doesn't make any sense like "me too" or "ok" or when I am tilted from matches before I write stfu or something like that but I don't think that's really that bad).

3. Why I Got Banned.

I got banned for using "hard" and "offensive" words. I only got a two week ban and after that a perma ban. I think I mostly got banned for saying "kys %%%" and "kys %%%%%%" a lot, those were the only "offensive" words I used but I never say that anymore and I know it's been just a year but I think I have matured a lot in that 1 year, and I don't get the need to say those words any more. I never attacked anyone I just used those words and flamed the people that flamed me, I know that it's against the rules to say that, even if I don't agree with those rules, I know that I can get banned if I don't follow them, and I admit I was really immature back then, but come on, people change, and besides that, words are only offensive if you let them be offensive, when someone tells me to kill myself or stuff like that I don't really give a shit. I'm not saying I shouldn't have gotten banned but I think that there needs to be some way (like The Level 20 Challenge) to get my account back because people actually can reform.

4. Ban System.

I think that Riot's current ban system is really really bad and I'm going to tell you why. When I still had my main account I was playing on my smurf and said this in all chat: "fiora called me a %%%%%% %%%%%%", she didn't really say that I just wanted to see what will happen, in that game I was also kind of trolling but it wasn't ranked and I don't remember it that well but I think that I had a reason and that I didn't int, mostly chat trolling I think, after that I think I didn't play anymore on that account and when I came back to play I saw I had a 14 day suspension (that account is now my main and now I have to be really careful not to get a perma...). After that I wrote a ticket to Riot and they said that even though that it has been taken out of context they said that I was toxic in my other games and that they are not going to undo that ban, I admit, I was toxic but still the game that got me banned was taken out of context. You can say that I got banned for trolling but I have another example and that one is from today. Before writing this post I wanted to test something out, I went on my level 7 account and decided to write "offensive" words in all chat, not to players, just write them every 5 minutes or less. I wasn't trolling and we won that game, I was just writing words, not anything else and I didn't even include "you are" before those words, it was a game of ARURF. After we won I exited that account and I returned less than 5 minutes later and my account got a 14 day suspension, I was playing with a friend and I told him to report me to fasten up the process. That was the only game I was "toxic" on that account and I didn't even get a chat ban I immediately got a 14 day ban. But then there is so many games that players say that I should die from cancer, blaming me for their own mistakes, flaming each other and they still have their accounts, I rarely see someone saying "offensive" words because all the people that used them probably got banned, I'm not saying they don't deserve it but people who are still in my games and are, what I find, more toxic then I ever was, I think they deserve it too but I still see them in my games. I think wishing someone cancer is so much worse then calling them a racial slur, but then kys is really bad too because if someone is depressed they might find it very disturbing and that's why i don't say that any more. That's why I think Riot's ban system should be improved a lot, it only registers certain words and if you say them you will get banned immediately.

5. Suggestions About Giving Players Access to Their Perma Banned Accounts.

  • Why I think players should get a chance to get their accounts back - some people say that players already got enough chances to reform but trust me, it's not the same to get a 2 week ban and a perma ban, people say that after you get a two week ban, if you haven't reformed you deserve to get perma banned, but those people don't know what it's like to be perma banned, they don't know the difference between two weeks and permanent. Only after you get a perma ban you realize how much that account meant to you (at least for me). I spent so much time on leveling, climbing, getting IP/Blue essence, buying champions and I spent so much money too (please don't tell me spending money doesn't give me permission to be toxic because trust me I already know that, I heard that a lot of times, I'm only saying that because losing that much money means a lot too), I mean we're talking about 6 years, that's a lot of time, and then a couple months of toxicity threw all that time away. I know that I can make another account and play on it and I am, but it just doesn't feel the same. I also think that it's not fair that the people who participated in the level 20 challenge got a chance to get their account back and I can't get that chance. I think I was playing while the level 20 challenge was around, because I had another account before the perma banned one, I'm not sure when The Level 20 Challenge got taken down though.
  • The Level 20 Challenge - I know that Riot already tried this and that it was a failure but I think that it was awesome because players got a chance to prove they have reformed. I already passed 20 levels on my account which I played on after I got perma banned and I got to platinum without a ban but Riot doesn't care about that because The Level 20 Challenge doesn't exist anymore.
  • How I think they should redo the challenge - It doesn't need to be 20 levels, it can be 10, 15, 30, a certain rank or whatever, I just think they need to add it and I will suggest how, I don't know if that's doable or if it's too hard to do but this is my suggestion: they make a separate site where you can apply for the challenge, you make an account and link it to your perma banned account, after you reach a certain level that Riot said out to be the level to complete the challenge without a ban, your permanently banned account gets unbanned. You make it so it's all controlled by bots because I know it would be too hard for people to control it because there would be too many people trying, I mean if you can hire bots to ban people why can't you hire them to unban them as well.

That was all for this post, I know it was a long post but I think I said everything that I wanted to say, I hope this post changes something and I want you to know all I was saying was true, I wasn't lying about my ban reason and why the ban system is bad. I hope this gets seen by riot.

19 Comments

ModThe Djinn5 votes

I think that toxic players are those who start flaming other people, not the ones who defend themselves with flaming instead of muting the toxic person.

Riot disagrees, and their disagreement is based on the Tribunal, which was an old player-vote-run ban system. It showed that the community thinks that a toxic player is anyone who flames for any reason. This isn't a 100% held opinion, but it was strongly held by enough of a majority that it became policy. If the community opinion changes and our reports change to reflect that, people retaliating will cease to be punished -- the system does learn.

That's why I think Riot's ban system should be improved a lot, it only registers certain words and if you say them you will get banned immediately.

It actually recognizes a lot more than certain words. There is a word-detection part that runs the zero-tolerance system, but the rest of it is actually a rather sophisticated AI that's proven capable of identifying things like subtle passive aggression, attempted work-arounds to toxic behavior, etc.

How I think they should redo the challenge - It doesn't need to be 20 levels, it can be 10, 15, 30, a certain rank or whatever, I just think they need to add it and I will suggest how, I don't know if that's doable or if it's too hard to do but this is my suggestion...

The reason the challenge will not be coming back is threefold:

  • It had an astoundingly high failure rate, meaning that its existence ruined far more games than simply banning all those players.
  • Banned players have all had at least one chance -- and often 4 or more -- to show reform already.
  • Riot's official policy is that, if you are permanently banned, they would prefer that you stop playing the game. They understand that they can't reasonably stop someone from making more accounts, but a system like this would actively encourage players to keep playing. As a significantly percentage of banned players actually do stop playing League, this would go against their goals.
Frøst1 votes

About the word recognition system, that's what I'm saying, the system doesn't necessarily ban toxic people, but it bans a lot of people who use those words.

I think the reason you won't bring it back is because you don't really care about people who were toxic in the past, you don't want to give them the chance to prove they have reformed and even tho a lot of people would fail, some people would pass it and you would make them happy, but you don't listen to your community, you do whatever you want whether the players like it or not. It wont ruin more games because if someone likes the game and is toxic they will make a new account and continue being toxic, but if he gets access to his main account maybe he will stop being toxic because he never wants to get that account banned...

Just tell me, what will you lose if you give the people a chance to prove they have reformed?

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}About the word recognition system, that's what I'm saying, the system doesn't necessarily ban toxic people, but it bans a lot of people who use those words.

Correct. Those specific words are zero tolerance, which means anyone using them is breaking the rules. The identification system for those isn't designed to catch other types of toxic behavior (other types are handled by the second system) -- it's just there to keep slurs and encouragements to self-harm out of chat.

I think the reason you won't bring it back is because you don't really care about people who were toxic in the past, you don't want to give them the chance to prove they have reformed and even tho a lot of people would fail, some people would pass it and you would make them happy, but you don't listen to your community, you do whatever you want whether the players like it or not. It wont ruin more games because if someone likes the game and is toxic they will make a new account and continue being toxic, but if he gets access to his main account maybe he will stop being toxic because he never wants to get that account banned...

The reason I don't bring it back is that I'm a volunteer board moderator, and have zero say in anything Riot as a company chooses to do.

The reason RIOT doesn't bring it back is because, again, it proved to be an absolutely failure. They've also given players a chance to reform, and losing their previous account permanently is the penalty for that failure. It's not really that harsh a penalty if it's reversible.

Just tell me, what will you lose if you give the people a chance to prove they have reformed?

Statistically, giving banned players more incentive to keep playing will ruin more games. More banned players stop playing League forever than the community likes to think, and giving them incentive to not quit results in more of them playing again -- and, as per the level 20 Challenge, we know that most permanently banned players don't reform even when given the chance. That's a net increase in toxic players returning to play League. There would also be less incentive to not be toxic, frankly, as there's no risk of permanently losing an account -- you just need to put on your good boy hat for a while on a new account and you get it all back and can try again.

Frøst1 votes

I'm not saying you as in YOU I'm saying you as a company, as RIOT.

How are you giving them incentive to not quit? I'm talking about one chance of completing a challenge per account, I'm not saying give them infinite chances to pass the challenge, just one, and if they don't pass they can't apply anymore.

Why can't you give a chance some players who you think will make it, I mean if I you wont give me the chance to prove myself reformed, and trust me I've supported this game for so many years and even continued playing after I got permanently banned and still playing 1 year after the ban then you really don't care about your players. I'm not one of those people who say they are reformed without any proof to themselves and Riot, I actually still play the game 1 year later without getting banned, if I'm really toxic why would I not be banned on my other account. And just the fact that after 1 year I still want that account has to mean that it's still not the same playing on my side account, but Riot, you and the community can't understand that. I'm not asking to be unbanned for free, I'm asking to get a chance to prove I've reformed, and is there any way I can talk to a Riot member that makes decisions?

Again by YOU I'm saying RIOT, the company.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

{quoted}How are you giving them incentive to not quit?

By offering them a chance to regain what they lost if they keep playing. That's an incentive to try by playing more.

Why can't you give a chance some players who you think will make it...

Because the Level 20 Challenge failed, and those players *were hand chosen from among players Riot felt were really confident they could prove they had reformed. This hand-picked bunch had over a 95% failure rate.

...is there any way I can talk to a Riot member that makes decisions?

Short of one deciding to pop into this thread, no. They've also gone on record as saying they have no desire to bring back the Level 20 Challenge, because literally all their data has shown it is not productive. While it might work for you specifically, they have data showing that in over 95% of hand-picked cases it still fails, and attempting it with that failure rate to appease the few banned players who possibly could reform isn't worth the cost to the never-punished players who would have to deal with the 95% of players who WOULD continue to be toxic.

Frøst1 votes

I think it's not fair that those *hand picked players got a chance and I can't get that chance even though I already passed more than 20 levels on my side account...

See that, if Riot did care about players they would make it possible to talk to them to make decisions like this, but now I'm just talking to people telling me stuff that I already read so much times...

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}I think it's not fair that those *hand picked players got a chance and I can't get that chance even though I already passed more than 20 levels on my side account...

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that if, by running an experiment, you force yourself into a situation where you have to extend that to everyone even if it fails, then no one would run experiments. Sometimes things just aren't as fair as you might like, but that's a bad reason to restart a policy statistically shown to let toxicity back into the game.

See that, if Riot did care about players they would make it possible to talk to them to make decisions like this...

There are enough players that Riot can't possibly personally talk to every one who dislikes the system. Also, the fact that they're not encouraging toxic players to return is because Riot cares about their players, and doesn't want to expose well behaved players to more toxicity.

Frøst1 votes

But I don't understand why they can't make an exception for players like me, who actually have proof of being reformed and are still playing the game and feel bad for not having their main accounts.

I know that there would be too much players but you can just pick players from Support or The Boards like you did with the lvl 20 challenge who think could provide some good arguments and convince Riot to make an exception to talk to people that work in Riot.

Umbral Regent3 votes

But I don't understand why they can't make an exception for players like me...

Because an exception sets a precedent. Riot has already decided that the Level 20 Challenge will not be coming back in any way, shape, or form, and that permanent bans will remain in place, regardless of how a player may have changed on a new account.

To allow any exception to that, means that they would have to extend the offer to everyone, because they had already stated it's not going to happen, having any exception would set the precedent that they're bringing it back, and that people can get their accounts unbanned.

"Why can't I get unbanned when this player got unbanned? Riot is so unfair, it's bullshit."

That's the kinda stuff you see with exceptions.

Hell, it's still even being seen with the nonsense of Tyler1 and his ID ban, though much less now than when it first occurred.

There can be no exceptions made, period. Exceptions set precedents, and precedents turn the exception into the expectation.

Frøst1 votes

I can say the same thing "Why can't I get a chance on the level 20 challenge, when players 6 years ago got that chance, if I was banned 6 years ago I could've probably succeed in that challenge", what about that? I'm not saying they should make an exception only for me but for some other players too after a long period of time has passed.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}But I don't understand why they can't make an exception for players like me, who actually have proof of being reformed and are still playing the game and feel bad for not having their main accounts.

Because saying "We'll make exceptions for players who have been playing with new accounts" is the same as reinstating the old policy, in that it provides incentive to keep playing and also undermines the severity of the punishment.

Also, to br perfectly blunt, Riot already gives players several chances and a final warning. At some point you run out of second chances, and Riot doesn't somehow owe you more.

Umbral Regent5 votes

I am still playing League and I think I deserve a chance to get my account unbanned because I haven't gotten any bans since then and I believe I have reformed.

If you have reformed, good for you. But you can't change that your previous behavior got your previous account banned. It's too late for that, and Riot isn't going to consider allowing people to prove their reform to get their accounts unbanned - they tried it before, and it met with a catastrophic failure rate.

I don't think Riot should even be perma banning accounts for being toxic, I mean it's the internet, of course people are gonna insult you, I think there should be a perma chat ban for that and a perma ban for trolling, but whatever.

"It's the internet" isn't a valid excuse for misbehavior. Of course people are going to insult you, but that doesn't mean that those insults are going to be tolerated.

Permanent chat bans wouldn't work, as Riot did also test what was effectively a permanent chat ban (increasing chat restrictions), and they found that players on the longer-scale chat restrictions just resorted to trolling, which is much harder to detect, and would effectively ruin too many games to consider as a viable option.

So, they cut out the middle man and give you two chat restrictions, and two bans. 10-game CR, 25-game CR, 14-day ban, permaban. If you don't reform after the 14-day ban, your account is gone. Them's the 8r8ks.

Kinds of Toxic Players.

No disagreement here. Props for counting something that you don't personally view as wholly toxic, though, that's a pretty good sign of integrity.

Generally, I would define toxic behavior as behavior where people go out of their way to ruin the game for others - trolling, griefing, AFK, intentional feeding, those are of course on that list, with similar such chat misbehavior (insults, passive-aggressive remarks, hardcore flame) also being on that list.

I do at least consider mild flame and general negative behavior to be separate from toxic behavior, though, such as lighter insults ("this Yi is so bad"), the blame game, and general complaining.

What I Think a Toxic Player Is.

This, generally, is a point of contention on the boards, especially lately, where retaliation and back-talk is becoming a more apparent issue amongst players. By and large, I'd consider retaliation and back-talk to always be on the negative spectrum of things (though tact and good word choice can mitigate that nature), but the degree of retaliation can tip it from negative to toxic.

Why I Got Banned.

I suppose it's good that you're at least aware of what resulted in your punishment, if not the why. I'll say this plainly, people can consider me an SJW or a PC snowflake if they wish, but here's how it is:

Words can inherently be offensive. There are some words that are simply meant to offend, whether it's terms that have already had their turn on the euphemism treadmill (Idiot, moron, etc.), or those which have had a longstanding history of hate and prejudice behind them (those that fall readily under the definition of hate speech).

Sure, people can ascribe their own measure of offense to a given word or words - I, for example, will be completely and utterly unfazed if you call me an idiot, a dumbass, a moron, or a jackass. Hell, I even embrace those kinds of insults and make impactless, self-deprecating remarks about them. But, that only speaks for my sensibilities.

And in a likewise nature, I'm unfazed by hate speech or encouragements of self harm. I'm not the subject of any of the offending terms, whether they're racial or homophobic slurs, and I've enough presence of mind to feel no compulsion to hurt myself at another's demand - sincere or otherwise.

But not everyone is going to be indifferent. There are, absolutely, people who will take offense to racial or homophobic slurs, and you don't know whether or not the people you're telling to "KYS" are at-risk.

As for the last bit:

...but I think that there needs to be some way (like The Level 20 Challenge) to get my account back because people actually can reform.

So you know of the Level 20 Challenge - but do you at least recall that the people who undertook it were hand-picked by Riot, and Riot considered them the most likely to succeed after interviewing them? And that these candidates with such a high success expectancy, out of them, only 5% actually turned over a new leaf?

5% of the most likely to succeed actually did. Now translate that to the rest of the League community - at least, those who've had their accounts permanently banned.

I'd be willing to wager that the success rate for general perma-banned players reforming would be somewhere in the hundredths or thousandths, if not lower.

Beyond that, the permanent ban is meant to be a short and simple message: "We don't want you playing League of Legends anymore." To ever revoke a permanent ban, even under the premise of the player having truly reformed, completely runs counter to that message. Delivering a permanent ban is meant to be showing the player the door. Revoking a permanent ban is inviting them back, despite the toxicity that resulted in a permaban in the first place.

Ban System.

In that first case, you were trying to defame and lie about another player just to see what would happen, and in the same turn you used hate speech. Neither of those things are going to fly.

In that second case...You straight up went out of your way to just be as offensive as possible. Did you really expect a different outcome?

The ban system isn't broken. It's working as intended, and the running theme between your noted punishments should be full evidence of that. You were using hate speech and other offensive chat, which Riot doesn't want in their game, and it should be fully known that that kind of offensive chat isn't the kind of stuff you'd do in public.

At this point, you're starting to become less and less sympathetic. First, you pretend like the "why" of your punishments for hate speech don't matter, as "words are only as offensive as you let them be", and now, you're telling us that you've run experiments to see what would happen when you use offensive words and hate speech in chat...

And then tell us the system is broken when the results show that it's working as intended.

Besides, the IFS doesn't simply look at certain words and think "oh, he said this. Issue ban." - sure, that is part of how it works, but that's only how it handles hate speech and other zero-tolerance chat. When it's not looking for hate speech, it looks for patterns of negative chat, and it is impressively good at picking out players who are stepping over the line.

Suggestions About Giving Players Access to Their Perma Banned Accounts.

  1. Yeah, that saying "You never know what you have 'til it's gone" has a whole lot more weight now, doesn't it? If you truly valued your account, I have only one question: Why didn't you listen when you had the chance? The 14-day ban is the last tier of punishment before the permanent ban, and I'd wager that you must have come to the boards or looked somewhere to understand why you got banned.

That you didn't listen and still got the account banned is almost telling. Sure, you may have reformed after it, and now likely value your account more now that you know that all the progress on it can be taken away at the drop of a hat, but, there's another saying:

"A day late, and a dollar short."

  1. Read my comments above about the Level 20 Challenge. It wasn't just a failure - it was a catastrophic failure. 95% of players deemed "most likely to succeed" failed. If 95% of the most promising candidates can't reform, what can we expect from the rest of permabanned players?

  2. It doesn't matter what arbitrary goal posts you set, the ability to get an account unbanned after it's been justly banned is not going to happen. It's not worth the amount of toxicity it would enable.

...and I want you to know all I was saying was true, I wasn't lying about my ban reason and why the ban system is bad.

We've no reason to suspect you'd lie about the reason for your ban. If nothing else, you have at least that level of integrity, as you admit your account was banned for hate speech, and counted flaming amongst toxic behaviors despite your personal views.

That said, why you believe the system is bad is not perfectly valid. Your tests involved offensive speech and hate speech, and consequently earned punishments appropriate for those offenses. As mentioned, all that tells us is that the system does work as it's intended to, as per those cases.

Frøst2 votes

First off, I appreciate you reading the whole thing and giving actual good answers unlike most people who just say "you deserve it" or "you can make another account" or just say something stupid without reading the whole thing.

For those examples of the system being bad: my point for the first one was that it was taken out of context, it wasn't hate speech because I said what someone said, even though she didn't say that I would've probably get banned even if she did. For the second example I didn't call anyone those words, I just wrote them in chat, so how is that hate speech, I mean if saying words is hate speech than I don't know what to say. I'm really not a racist or homophobic person, I hate racism and i don't give a shit if someone is gay unless that someone is expecting to get special treatment for a choice he/she made. The only reason I was saying those words before was because people get easily offended by those words and I was only saying those words to players who tilted me.

About the two week ban I honestly didn't think that that was my last chance since that was my first ban. It said that if I continue being toxic I will e perma banned but I thought that there will be a next level of punishment not just one warning. I'm not saying it would make a difference if I did know that tho (maybe it would I don't know) but only after I got the perma ban I realized what I lost. And the fact that I'm still playing on another account and didn't get any bans shows that I reformed and that I like the game. Especially the fact that after 1 year I still really want to get my main account unbanned.

Aneirin1 votes

The only reason I was saying those words before was because people get easily offended by those words

Not the greatest defence sorry.

About the two week ban I honestly didn't think that that was my last chance since that was my first ban. It said that if I continue being toxic I will e perma banned but I thought that there will be a next level of punishment not just one warning.

So you knew what you were doing was wrong and that it would get you permabanned, but you hoped you could get away with it for a bit longer first?

That aside, the fact that you have two accounts in good standing does speak towards your new attitude. It would set a dangerous precedent and need a bit of thinking but a system that lets you trade an account that's consistently in good standing for an old one could be worth a look maybe?

Frøst1 votes

I know, I wasn't really trying to defend myself I was just being honest.

Yeah, as I said I was immature back then and only after I got that perma ban I understood what I just lost and why I lost it.

Thank you for agreeing with me about the reform system, I really think that it's a good idea but I don't really think Riot will actually do it.

Aneirin1 votes

No problem, nice to see someone actually willing to reform instead of just blaming their team or riot for everything :)

Frøst2 votes

Thanks.

CharDeeMcDenniz2 votes

im personally glad for the current approach RIOT is taking against toxic players and im equally happy they take a hardline on perma banned accounts.

you admitted to saying some of the worst things you can say, got suspended and still didn't learn, now we're supposed to feel bad for you?

take your medicine like a man

Yatol1 votes

Make a new account and dont tell people to kill themselves

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